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Last post 2 years ago by delta1. 35 replies replies.
Whether he invades Ukraine or backs down, Putin has harmed Russia
rfenst Offline
#1 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,233
He will try to claim victory though

The Economist


The news, for a moment, seemed encouraging. In a stage-managed television appearance on February 14th Vladimir Putin grunted a terse “good” to the proposal of his foreign minister that, despite warnings by the West of an imminent invasion of Ukraine, diplomacy should continue. A day later Russia’s defence ministry said that some of the 180,000 or so troops it has deployed at its borders with Ukraine are to be withdrawn to barracks, having completed their military exercises which, it has always maintained, is why they were there in the first place.

Officials, and the markets, breathed a small sigh of relief. Alas, open-source intelligence soon showed that, although a few units were moving, many more were preparing to fight. With the candour that has wrong-footed Mr Putin, many Western security officials accused him of lying, redoubling their warnings of a looming Russian invasion. Even if the troops pull back, this crisis is not yet over. And, whatever happens, war or no war, Mr Putin has damaged his country by engineering it.

Plenty of Western observers would dispute that judgment. Without firing a shot, they point out, Mr Putin has made himself the centre of global attention, proving that Russia matters once more. He has destabilised Ukraine and impressed on everyone that its future is his business. He may yet win concessions from nato for avoiding war. And at home he has underlined his statesmanship and distracted from economic hardship and the repression of opposition figures such as Alexei Navalny, who was this week once again hauled before a judge.

Yet these gains are tactical. Even as Mr Putin has won them, in a longer-lasting and more strategic sense he has lost ground.

For one thing, although all eyes are on Mr Putin, he has galvanised his opponents. Led by Joe Biden, who once called Mr Putin “a killer” and surely loathes the man who tried to deny him the presidency, the West has agreed on a tougher package of threatened sanctions than in 2014, when Russia annexed Crimea. nato, dismissed in 2019 by the French president as suffering “brain death”, has found renewed purpose in protecting its Russia-facing flanks. Having always preferred to keep their distance, Sweden and Finland may even join the alliance. Germany, having unwisely backed the new Nord Stream 2 pipeline, has accepted that Russian gas is a liability it must deal with and that an invasion would kill off the project. If Mr Putin imagined that his threats would be met with Western mush, he has been disabused.

Ukraine has indeed suffered. But the crisis has also affirmed the popular sense among Ukrainians that their destiny lies with the West. True, Mr Putin has extracted assurances that Ukraine is not about to join nato—but these were cheap, because membership was always remote. What matters more is that, having been neglected in recent years, Ukraine is enjoying the West’s unprecedented diplomatic and military support. Those bonds, forged in crisis, will not suddenly dissolve if Russian forces pull back. Again, it is the opposite of what Mr Putin wanted.

It is also true that Mr Putin has put Europe’s security on the agenda, including discussions over missiles and military exercises. But such talks would be in everyone’s interest, because they reduce the danger of conflict. If win-win negotiations count as victories for Mr Putin, let there be more of them.

Mr Putin’s most intriguing loss is at home. Russia has attempted to build a fortress economy. It has boosted its reserves and reduced the share of them held in dollars. It has curtailed firms’ dependency on foreign capital and worked hard to build up its “tech stack” (everything from chips to apps to the network itself). It has also cosied up to China in the hope of finding an alternative buyer for the hydrocarbons that are still its principal source of foreign exchange.

Although these actions have lessened the potential harm from Western sanctions, they have not eliminated it. The eu still takes 27% of all Russian exports; China about half that. The Power of Siberia gas pipeline that runs towards China will, when completed in 2025, carry only a fifth of what now goes to Europe. In the event of a serious conflict, sanctions through the swift banking-transactions network or on big Russian banks would cut off the financial system. Huawei-style import restrictions would cause huge difficulties for Russia’s tech firms.

Mr Putin can either live with this interdependency or turn further towards China. Yet that would condemn Russia to being the junior partner of an unsentimental regime which sees it as a diplomatic sidekick and a backward source of cheap commodities. That is a yoke Mr Putin would chafe under.

This alliance of autocrats would also have a psychological cost inside Russia. It would demonstrate Mr Putin’s dependence on the siloviki, the security bosses who see in Ukraine’s democracy and deepening ties with the West a threat to their own ability to control and loot Russia. It would be a further sign to the liberal capitalists and technocrats who are the other pillar of the Russian state that they had lost. More of the best and brightest would leave; others would give up. Stagnation and resentment would build into opposition likely to be met with heightened brutality.

And what if Mr Putin, mindful of all this, were to invade? That may yet be the terrible outcome of this crisis, as each side seeks to outmanoeuvre the other. Just this week the Russian State Duma urged Mr Putin to recognise the self-declared “republics” in the Donbas, which claim big chunks of Ukrainian territory they do not currently control—adding one more trigger that Mr Putin can pull whenever he chooses.

As well as devastating Ukraine, war would do far greater harm to Russia than the threat of war. The West would be more galvanised and more determined to turn its back on Russian gas; Ukraine would become a running sore, bleeding Russia of money and men; and Mr Putin would be a pariah. Russia itself would be blighted, in the short run by sanctions and later by still deeper autarky and repression.

Mr Putin has painted himself into a corner. He could lash out. Yet a retreat now, with his ambitions thwarted, may only lead to an attack later. By standing up to the threat he poses, the West has the best chance of deterring that fateful choice.
8trackdisco Offline
#2 Posted:
Joined: 11-06-2004
Posts: 60,055
Rosy outcomes abound per the article. Still am wary this is a diversion.
Russia and China more closely working together, they could feign a move on Ukraine or maybe move tanks into the Donbas region- its held by Russia anyway and gives a better proximity to get an even closer jumping off point.
Then when all of the West is looking at them, China overwhelms Taiwan in 72 hours.

And if the West then moves the pieces to the Far East, the Russians inhale all of Ukraine.

Best case, the Russians stay on the boarders, poised to charge, we stay vigilant and, and the slow financial bleed of feeding and fueling 150,000 troops each day becomes cost prohibitive.

By the way, think today is Day 19 of Biden's They Are Attacking Tomorrow! Telethon.

rfenst Offline
#3 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,233
8trackdisco wrote:
Rosy outcomes abound per the article. Still am wary this is a diversion.
Russia and China more closely working together, they could feign a move on Ukraine or maybe move tanks into the Donbas region- its held by Russia anyway and gives a better proximity to get an even closer jumping off point.
Then when all of the West is looking at them, China overwhelms Taiwan in 72 hours.

And if the West then moves the pieces to the Far East, the Russians inhale all of Ukraine.

Best case, the Russians stay on the boarders, poised to charge, we stay vigilant and, and the slow financial bleed of feeding and fueling 150,000 troops each day becomes cost prohibitive.

By the way, think today is Day 19 of Biden's They Are Attacking Tomorrow! Telethon.


I think this could be used by China even if Putin eventually withdraws. We are sending our ships to the region, not Taiwan.

I like that Bidden is calling Putin out because it ads pressure to Putin having to make a decision now, rather than stringing this thing out for weeks or longer.

I also think that the most stringent sanctions are already warranted and should already have been imposed to the fullest extent just for amassing on Ukraine's border
Whistlebritches Offline
#4 Posted:
Joined: 04-23-2006
Posts: 22,128
Russia training exercise..........which Biden knew as he was briefed by Vladimer.

Once its over Biden can claim he diffused the situation..........BULLSCHIT DELUXE!!!!

Any of y'all ever heard of the Durham investigation ..............charges filed on Clinton lawyer Sussman.

Wag the dog in Technicolor
Sunoverbeach Offline
#5 Posted:
Joined: 08-11-2017
Posts: 14,647
Well, if crime fighters fight crime, and firefighters fight fires, what do freedom fighters fight?
- GC
ZRX1200 Offline
#6 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,558
I’m glad people are eating the 💩 the media is spoon feeding at the request of the disaster that in The White-ish House.

Saw the disgrace that is Leslie Brain Stahl tonight talking about this, praising Ukraine and claiming that Biden had boxed Putin in.

The Scott Pederazz finishes the hour up with more propoganda, can you say “Yellow cake uranium” class?

You’re being set up again. Jesus H Christ on a popsicle stick this country is EFFED in all three holes.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#7 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,381
8trackdisco wrote:
By the way, think today is Day 19 of Biden's They Are Attacking Tomorrow! Telethon.




I LMMFAO at this one!

So, did anyone bother to look up what Reforger and Team Spirit was? Oh, it cheeses of the neighbors something wicked.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#8 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,381
rfenst wrote:
I think this could be used by China even if Putin eventually withdraws. We are sending our ships to the region, not Taiwan.

I like that Bidden is calling Putin out because it ads pressure to Putin having to make a decision now, rather than stringing this thing out for weeks or longer.

I also think that the most stringent sanctions are already warranted and should already have been imposed to the fullest extent just for amassing on Ukraine's border



Shame on you Shame on you Shame on you

I wouldn't follow a single word by a man that can't complete full sentences!

https://youtu.be/Bp1gzw4zVQ4

Good luck!whip
RayR Offline
#9 Posted:
Joined: 07-20-2020
Posts: 8,869
Putin knows Biden is just an old demented punk and his administration is a joke.

Do you think Biden scares anybody when the border with Mexico is overrun by the drug cartels and human traffickers with his encouragement?
Do you think Biden impresses anyone when the policies of his administration have caused massive price inflation, including record energy prices?
Sunoverbeach Offline
#10 Posted:
Joined: 08-11-2017
Posts: 14,647
Scratch any cynic and you will find a disappointed idealist.
- GC
frankj1 Offline
#11 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,211
Sunoverbeach wrote:
Scratch any cynic and you will find a disappointed idealist.
- GC

hmmm...
Whistlebritches Offline
#12 Posted:
Joined: 04-23-2006
Posts: 22,128
I just have trouble believing people can be so gullible and fall so easily for the wag the dog schit going on in DC
Speyside2 Offline
#13 Posted:
Joined: 11-11-2021
Posts: 2,340
There are no where close to record energy prices. There are inflated energy prices.

Brent crude 2008 $147
Brent crude 2022 $97

Natural gas 2005 $15
Natural gas 2022 $4
ZRX1200 Offline
#14 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,558
Spey you’re not playing along with the narrative.
Speyside2 Offline
#15 Posted:
Joined: 11-11-2021
Posts: 2,340
Quite true, I am like moron in that way.
RMAN4443 Offline
#16 Posted:
Joined: 09-29-2016
Posts: 7,683
Speyside2 wrote:
There are no where close to record energy prices. There are inflated energy prices.

Brent crude 2008 $147
Brent crude 2022 $97

Natural gas 2005 $15
Natural gas 2022 $4

round and round and round they go,where they stop,nobody knows...Brick wall
RayR Offline
#17 Posted:
Joined: 07-20-2020
Posts: 8,869
ZRX1200 wrote:
Spey you’re not playing along with the narrative.


Spey doesn't buy gasoline either I guess.
frankj1 Offline
#18 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,211
do we import any gasoline from Russia?
HockeyDad Offline
#19 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,112
frankj1 wrote:
do we import any gasoline from Russia?


We don't import gasoline from Russia. I would expect you will see the price of gas drop noticeably.
rfenst Offline
#20 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,233
frankj1 wrote:
do we import any gasoline from Russia?

Not anymore for sure... if we even ever did...
Sunoverbeach Offline
#21 Posted:
Joined: 08-11-2017
Posts: 14,647
How come when it’s us, it’s an abortion, and when it’s a chicken, it’s an omelette?
- GC
DrMaddVibe Offline
#22 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,381
rfenst wrote:
Not anymore for sure... if we even ever did...



https://oilprice.com/Energy/Crude-Oil/The-US-Imports-Record-Share-Of-Russian-Oil-Despite-Tensions.html#:~:text=As%20per%20Bloomberg%20calculations%2C%20the%20United%20States%20imported,on%20average%20522%2C000%20bpd%20to%20the%20United%20States.
Speyside2 Offline
#23 Posted:
Joined: 11-11-2021
Posts: 2,340
Our energy plan is a f*cking joke. We are net positive 4 million barrels a day. We do not need to be dependent on any other country for oil. I do not know how Biden could pressure Germany to not certifying Nord Steam 2 with a straight face. Read the article Doc posted. I do not need to be redundant. I assume by presidential order Biden could break import and export contracts, though I am guessing.
HockeyDad Offline
#24 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,112
rfenst wrote:
Not anymore for sure... if we even ever did...


We did import oil from Russia under Biden.
HockeyDad Offline
#25 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,112
Sunoverbeach wrote:
How come when it’s us, it’s an abortion, and when it’s a chicken, it’s an omelette?
- GC


Give it time.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#26 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,381
Speyside2 wrote:
Our energy plan is a f*cking joke. We are net positive 4 million barrels a day. We do not need to be dependent on any other country for oil. I do not know how Biden could pressure Germany to not certifying Nord Steam 2 with a straight face. Read the article Doc posted. I do not need to be redundant. I assume by presidential order Biden could break import and export contracts, though I am guessing.



Brandon can barely break wind by himself. Toss him some crayons and soften up the Choco Chocolate Chip ice cream around 1345...right around bed time for King Bidas.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#27 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,381
Buh bye Taiwan!


"Not so fast

Three hours later, the CCP-owned mouthpiece for the regime, Global Times, tweeted: "Taiwan is eager to grab attention from the Ukraine issue. But there is no dispute over Ukraine’s sovereignty despite disputes on its borders."

"Taiwan’s sovereignty has never existed. It’s only a matter of time that your secessionist regime will be eradicated."

https://www.zerohedge.com/political/china-vows-eradicate-taiwans-secessionist-regime



Biden won't blink.

The synapses aren't firing unless he's hepped up on his Alzheimers meds.
Cigarrob Offline
#28 Posted:
Joined: 02-17-2019
Posts: 27
Y'all dont seem to want to comment on Trump's praise of Putin's invasion. What a narcissistic commie **** Trump is. Anything to be against the party that won the election even to the point on turning on this country.
Sunoverbeach Offline
#29 Posted:
Joined: 08-11-2017
Posts: 14,647
Thought he had a big Putin crush even when he was running the country
DrMaddVibe Offline
#30 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,381
Cigarrob wrote:
Y'all dont seem to want to comment on Trump's praise of Putin's invasion. What a narcissistic commie **** Trump is. Anything to be against the party that won the election even to the point on turning on this country.



You have to be a real low IQ individual to extrapolate what you just vomited.
Sunoverbeach Offline
#31 Posted:
Joined: 08-11-2017
Posts: 14,647
"I am" is reportedly the shortest sentence in the English language. Could it be that "I do" is the longest?
- GC
Brewha Offline
#32 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,161
DrMaddVibe wrote:
You have to be a real low IQ individual to extrapolate what you just vomited.

Takes one to know one.
tonygraz Offline
#33 Posted:
Joined: 08-11-2008
Posts: 20,221
LOts of posts in this topic that some might want to retract now.
Sunoverbeach Offline
#34 Posted:
Joined: 08-11-2017
Posts: 14,647
My mother would say, "Why are you always playing alone?" And I would say, "I'm not playing, ma. I'm f**king serious!"
- GC
delta1 Offline
#35 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,772
Trump (No new wars POTUS) says Putin is a genius for invading Ukraine...guess he only likes war if someone else is doing it...

https://www.politico.com/news/2022/02/23/trump-putin-ukraine-invasion-00010923

those on the right are pointing the finger of blame at Biden as if he's the one who invaded Ukraine...guess they can't blame Putin, since Trump has agreed to be Putin's puppy dog and treats him like his master...

but Trump was right when he said the US can't do endless war...his response to the invasion says he would've gotten out of Putin's way if this happened on his watch...he was constantly praising Putin while he was POTUS...

I agree with Trump that the US can't go to war over every conflict in the world...we used to go to war in defense of democracy and Ukraine is a democratic sovereign nation...but European NATO countries are more affected by this aggression, so it is up to them to fashion a response, one the US should support from behind...
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