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1. Author: wheelrite
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Date: 07/30/2010 06:38 PM
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Of the 21st Century.
This car is a massive waist of Our Tax dollars.It won’t sell and will be a monument to Liberal failure..
wheel,
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2. Author: jojoc
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Date: 07/30/2010 06:53 PM
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go back to bed
wake up
get up on the other side and try this again
:)
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3. Author: ARN
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Date: 07/30/2010 07:07 PM
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No we will all be forced to support it because it is a "Company" program.
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4. Author: wheelrite
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Date: 07/30/2010 07:16 PM
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President Obama was in Detroit on Friday to promote the Chevy Volt electric car, which is fantastically overpriced and offers underwhelming performance. This is the latest example of government burning billions on green ideas that don’t pay off.
At $41,000, Government Motors’ new model is only an economy car for limousine liberals. To try to hoodwink the masses, the federal government - GM’s overlord, which owns 61 percent of the company - is offering a hefty $7,500 tax credit per electric vehicle. The sticker for this appliance on wheels would be even higher were it not for layers of direct government subsidies for Volt development, including $240 million from the Energy Department last year and $150 million to a South Korean company that makes the car’s batteries. On top of that is the $50 billion government bailout for a bankrupt GM and a $14 billion loan in 2008 to retool the company’s manufacturing facilities.
Despite federal largesse, the Volt won’t help environmentalists reach Nirvana. The hunk of junk only has a range of 40 miles a day (at best), and it’s charged up by plugging it into a wall outlet, which in most places is powered by coal plants. A more practical ride for mileage maniacs is the new Fiesta by profitable crosstown rival Ford Motor Co. Its four-cylinder gasoline engine gets 40 miles per gallon, can drive all day and only costs 14 grand. For the price of a Volt, a family could put a Fiesta and a Mustang in the driveway. Lesson: Government needs to get out of the car business.
© Copyright 2010 The Washington Times, LLC. Click here for reprint permission.
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5. Author: Secondz
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Date: 07/30/2010 07:23 PM
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"a monument to Liberal failure"
Naw, Obama-care already has that award locked up
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6. Author: topper7788
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Date: 07/30/2010 08:36 PM
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First off the guy tearing the car apart either doesnt understand what a plug in HYBRID is or he’s an idiot
He hasn’t seen Noe driven it, buts it’s a piece of junk????? New tech is expensive no way it a value. It’s the first. Early assorted always pay a premium for tech and this is new tech
Let’s give it a shot in the market before passing judgment And I do agree it’s probably $8000 to expensive for mainstream. But at least you can drive it anywhere you want.
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7. Author: ARN
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Date: 07/30/2010 08:38 PM
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^as long as it’s not to far away
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8. Author: topper7788
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Date: 07/30/2010 08:53 PM
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It’s range is the same as a gas car. The gas engine powers the electric drive after the batteries drain. That’s the difference from a pure electric.
But the actual drive train is pure electric
Excuse all the typos I typed the above on my phone and didn’t proof!!!! Wow!
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9. Author: wheelrite
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Date: 07/30/2010 08:59 PM
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Topper,,
It is a BonnDoggle..
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10. Author: ARN
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Date: 07/30/2010 09:00 PM
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I see it has a 4cyl engine as it’s secondary power source. Needs premium gasoline though. 300 mile range. 40/260
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11. Author: ARN
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Date: 07/30/2010 09:01 PM
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$41,000 I’m buying a v8.....lol
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12. Author: HockeyDad
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Date: 07/30/2010 09:06 PM
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It will sell well if they can convince Prius owners that they are now second-class citizens. It is all in the marketing.
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13. Author: ARN
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Date: 07/30/2010 09:09 PM
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^lol, I drive a lot of highway miles everyday. I Laugh my ass off when the "posers" fly buy me at 90 miles an hour.
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14. Author: edsbar60
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Date: 07/31/2010 02:41 AM
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Yeah, but what’s the 1/4 mile times on this rod!
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15. Author: edsbar60
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Date: 07/31/2010 02:42 AM
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16. Author: donutboy2000
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Date: 07/31/2010 02:44 AM
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17. Author: edsbar60
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Date: 07/31/2010 02:46 AM
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18. Author: donutboy2000
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Date: 07/31/2010 02:48 AM
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In a recent interview with the David Pogue of New York Times, GM superstar Bob Lutz, released more critical details on the upcoming electric-car from GM, the Chevrolet Volt. Supposedly, when Pogue asked questions concerning the performance of the Volt, Bob Lutz ‘misspoke’:
DP: So, what about torque and RPM? Is it all measured differently?
BL: Yeah, batteries have tremendous performance and torque. Our performance targets for the Volt are 0 to 60 in around five or six seconds. Top speed of 120 miles an hour for a limited time. A hundred miles an hour is sustainable.
egm
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19. Author: topper7788
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Date: 07/31/2010 08:43 AM
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ARN,
Ok let’s try and educate a few of you..
For one thing, the car is totally powered by electrics... The gas engine is ONLY to provide power to the batteries when they run down, Ike plugging in your cell phone.. The gas engine in NO WAY drives the car... There lies the big difference... It is a 100% electric powered car... Like a Nissan Leaf or my personal favorite Tesla, the big difference is it’s a hybrid with a small gas engine to keep juice in the bateries etc... Which bit have limited range... The Volt is capable of doing a cross country trip... Yes after approximately 40 miles the gas engine will kick on to keep the juice going... What amount of gas the I think around 1 liter engine will use I have no idea, but certainly way less than what a larger engine to actual power the car would..
Is this thing for everybody, heck no, if you want to be an early adapter of tech and have a relatively short commute it should be very cool....
This is the first, they will improve over time, the Nissan Leaf is a subcompact with a. Limited range of 100 miles or less, but it is also version 1.... Think of these things as the model T of electric cars..
Boondoggle? Why, necouse you don’t want one.? (either do I by the way) but I appreciate the reck involved like a Prius , which I also have no desire to drive... Go drive an early Prius and see what you think of it, they SUCKED to drive, the new ones are tons better plus 10 years of development makes a huge difference... What do you think the Volt or Cadillac equivalent will be like in 2020?
Gen 2 will be better than gen 1, gen 3 will be better than gen 2 etc... But you got to start someplace, it will be interesting to see what people actually think of this thing after someone ACTUALLY spends some time with it.. Till then I will reserve opinion...
( excuse any typos in advance this is an iPhone post)
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20. Author: wheelrite
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Date: 07/31/2010 09:03 AM
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Topper..
1,Tesla,a scam
2,Volt,40 mile range .The gas motor does NOT re-charge the battery.
3,There is no market for this car.
wheel,
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21. Author: wheelrite
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Date: 07/31/2010 09:13 AM
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Also..
MY prediction..
This car will be OUT of production within 5 yrs.
It’s a huge waste of resources.Car companiies should be run by car people,not Govt’s and Boards of Directors with a majority of Union officials controlling the company...
wheel,
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22. Author: HockeyDad
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Date: 07/31/2010 09:25 AM
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You people just don’t see what is coming.
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23. Author: gringococolo
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Date: 07/31/2010 09:46 AM
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^^ Wheel
They said the same thing about the Prius. Exploding batteries etc...
The Leaf is the way to go anyway. I thought the primary focus was to reduce dependence on oil, not coal. Environment is second.
I have a 8 mile commute to work. I don’t know if I would get one unless I could charge it somewhere for free while I worked.
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24. Author: DrMaddVibe
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Date: 07/31/2010 10:22 AM
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GM already screwed the pooch with an electric car.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Q0pjyJyGbI
Now that they’re sucking the taxpayers dry, they’ll kill this "project" too!
I know that every car company can build a decent car/truck but I will NEVER purchase a GM or Chrysler vehicle...EVER.
If they were so damn good at what they do then they wouldn’t have to beg with their bloated executive paydays, over extended union contracts and just down right lower expectations on the showroom floor.
You had your run and you couldn’t do it with the taxpayers. See ya!
PS: The UAW pension fund...it’s going to need a bailout that NOBODY is talking about. It will most likely cost what we spent on both of those tax sucking leeches.
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25. Author: MARKQ
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Date: 07/31/2010 12:50 PM
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You have to start somewhere. If the price were better I might consider buying one at some point. A 40 mile range would serve for over 75% of my driving. Like somebody mentioned before one of the big problems with electric cars is how do you generate all the electricity to recharge them. If it’s from coal then all you’re doing is pushing the polution and emissions downstream to somebody else. Green electricity sounds good, but for all the big talk about it the fact remains it makes up a small fraction of our total power consumption and probably will for the forseable future.
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26. Author: donutboy2000
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Date: 07/31/2010 02:16 PM
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27. Author: HockeyDad
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Date: 07/31/2010 02:23 PM
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Imagine how the price would look for this car if gasoline was $1.50 a gallon more expensive due to new taxes.
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28. Author: Stinkdyr
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Date: 07/31/2010 11:45 PM
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^ naw.....our gubment wouldn’t screw us taxpayers like that!
would they?
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29. Author: donutboy2000
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Date: 08/01/2010 12:49 AM
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30. Author: HockeyDad
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Date: 08/01/2010 09:09 AM
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I merely point out how easy the government could change demand for this car made by the government by a simple alteration of the overall playing field.
More gas taxes are coming. More CAFE is coming. Cap-N-Trade is coming. Car companies know that if they build it, the government will change the rules to force people to come.
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31. Author: jpotts
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Date: 08/01/2010 10:42 AM
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19. Author: topper7788 Date: 07/31/2010 08:43 AM Reply
ARN,
Ok let’s try and educate a few of you..
For one thing, the car is totally powered by electrics... The gas engine is ONLY to provide power to the batteries when they run down, Ike plugging in your cell phone.. The gas engine in NO WAY drives the car... There lies the big difference... It is a 100% electric powered car... Like a Nissan Leaf or my personal favorite Tesla, the big difference is it’s a hybrid with a small gas engine to keep juice in the bateries etc... Which bit have limited range... The Volt is capable of doing a cross country trip... Yes after approximately 40 miles the gas engine will kick on to keep the juice going... What amount of gas the I think around 1 liter engine will use I have no idea, but certainly way less than what a larger engine to actual power the car would..
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First, the problem with the Volt is that it started out as a 100% electric car, and was changed mid-stream into a hybrid when reality set in (the reality being that no one in their right mind with limited funds is going to buy an electric car). Which means it was essentially rushed to market, but not by market pressure.
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Is this thing for everybody, heck no, if you want to be an early adapter of tech and have a relatively short commute it should be very cool....
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Which we’ve had around for decades, and all of them have been huge financial flops.
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This is the first, they will improve over time, the Nissan Leaf is a subcompact with a. Limited range of 100 miles or less, but it is also version 1.... Think of these things as the model T of electric cars..
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No, this is NOT the Model T of electric cars. Electric cars have been around for nearly as long as gasoline-powered cars. They haven’t sold. They haven’t sold because they are expensive, and their performance when compared to conventional cars sucks.
The Model T of electric cars was around when the Model T was actually a big thing.
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Boondoggle? Why, necouse you don’t want one.? (either do I by the way) but I appreciate the reck involved like a Prius , which I also have no desire to drive... Go drive an early Prius and see what you think of it, they SUCKED to drive, the new ones are tons better plus 10 years of development makes a huge difference... What do you think the Volt or Cadillac equivalent will be like in 2020?
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They are a boondoggle because:
1) they require a subsidy to purchase,
2) it required a massive subsidies to develop in the first place,
3) they are being rushed to market in order to further a purely political agenda.
4) the track record of electric cars has been a joke,
5) the past record of hybrids has been a total joke,
6) It took the Prius ten years to reach a million units sold, and that was built by a company who has a strong reputation for producing quality vehicles,
7) even the batteries - the core of the car - aren’t made in the US DESPITE the fact that we have companies in this country today that can mass-produce these cells,
8) it is a cost-prohibitive "economy" vehicle that would require nearly a decade of use in order to be cost-justified,
9) it is a butt-ugly car,
10) it is made by Government Motors. If it was made by Ford, it would be a different story.
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Gen 2 will be better than gen 1, gen 3 will be better than gen 2 etc... But you got to start someplace, it will be interesting to see what people actually think of this thing after someone ACTUALLY spends some time with it.. Till then I will reserve opinion...
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Start somewhere?
This whole movement has started and stalled more times than your average Fiat.
I guess the thing that chaps my a** is the fact that my frickin’ hard-earnd tax dollars are being used to purchase a vehicle for someone else that - even with subsidies - I couldn’t afford. This vehicle, after the subsidy, STILL costs more than a Econoline van.
I am pretty much forced to buy used vehicles because the government takes my money and give it to a bunch of lowlifes. They give away free cell phones so that homeless people can chat with their friends and use up all the minutes that someone else pays for (namely me). They allow illegal immigrants to draw from the welfare system, which I pay for.
And now they’re taking money from me so that someone who thinks their sh*t doesn’t stink because they drive a hybrid can afford that hybrid in the frickin first place.
If the technology is so swell, why are they taking money from me so that someone else can buy the car?
The fact is: it’s a turd on wheels. Until people purchase that thing in droves without taking my hard earned money and aimlessly throwing at people as an incentive to buy that monstrosity, then it will remain a turd on wheels. Period.
Has no one learned the lesson from the Cash for Clunkers debacle, or the corn ethonol scam? People buy cars they don’t need so long as they are being subsidized. The minute those subsidies go away, an artificially market deflates, sometimes with catastrophic results. Not to mention that we have budget deficits and a massive federal debt that should be attended to (but is being ignored, perhaps on purpose). That subsidy money could be better spent elsewhere...or better yet: GIVE ME BACK MY FRICKIN’ MONEY!
Topper, your passion for the electric car is admirable, but when you strip away all of the pie-in-the-sky delusional crap, what you’re left with is an ugly reality.
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32. Author: topper7788
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Date: 08/01/2010 10:56 AM
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Whelk,
The gas motor only powers the electric, it does not drive the car..
And it was NEVER going to be a pure electric. GM always said the limited range and lack of infrastructure for on the go recharging that they thought hybrid at present was a better alternative for the mass market.
Someone mentioned substadies, yeah, I told you years ago you can’t build an electric car at anywhere near a price point for mass consumption today... But the government seems to think that we may acutuly need this tech long term... They could even be right in this who knows?
The range is 40 in electric only mode, then the gas engine kicks in to power the electric motors, not the drivetrain like sa a Prius.
And I agree on Tesla, but. Good scat is turning into eh!
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33. Author: ARN
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Date: 08/01/2010 04:04 PM
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Don’t want one
Don’t need one
Can’t see a reason to have one
Don’t really give a shit
So much for education
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34. Author: DrMaddVibe
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Date: 08/02/2010 10:27 AM
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G.M.’s Electric Lemon - By EDWARD NIEDERMEYER
GENERAL MOTORS introduced America to the Chevrolet Volt at the 2007 Detroit Auto Show as a low-slung concept car that would someday be the future of motorized transportation. It would go 40 miles on battery power alone, promised G.M., after which it would create its own electricity with a gas engine. Three and a half years — and one government-assisted bankruptcy later — G.M. is bringing a Volt to market that makes good on those two promises. The problem is, well, everything else.
For starters, G.M.’s vision turned into a car that costs $41,000 before relevant tax breaks ... but after billions of dollars of government loans and grants for the Volt’s development and production. And instead of the sleek coupe of 2007, it looks suspiciously similar to a Toyota Prius. It also requires premium gasoline, seats only four people (the battery runs down the center of the car, preventing a rear bench) and has less head and leg room than the $17,000 Chevrolet Cruze, which is more or less the non-electric version of the Volt.
In short, the Volt appears to be exactly the kind of green-at-all-costs car that some opponents of the bailout feared the government might order G.M. to build. Unfortunately for this theory, G.M. was already committed to the Volt when it entered bankruptcy. And though President Obama’s task force reported in 2009 that the Volt “will likely be too expensive to be commercially successful in the short term,” it didn’t cancel the project.
Nor did the government or G.M. decide to sell the Volt at a loss, which, paradoxically, might have been the best hope for making it profitable. Consider the Prius. Back in 1997, Toyota began selling the high-tech, first-of-its-kind car in Japan for about $17,000, even though each model cost $32,000 to build.
By taking a loss on the first several years of Prius production, Toyota was able to hold its price steady, and then sell the gas-sippers in huge numbers when oil prices soared. Today a Prius costs roughly the same in inflation-adjusted dollars as those 1997 models did, and it has become the best-selling Toyota in the United States after the evergreen Camry and Corolla.
Instead of following Toyota’s model, G.M. decided to make the Volt more affordable by offering a $350-a-month lease over 36 months. But that offer allows only 12,000 miles per year, or about 33 miles per day. Assuming you charged your Volt every evening, giving you 40 miles of battery power, and wanted to keep below the mileage limit, you would rarely use its expensive range-extending gas engine. No wonder the Volt’s main competition, the Nissan Leaf, forgoes the additional combustion engine — and ends up costing $8,000 less as a result.
In the industry, some suspect that G.M. and the Obama administration decided against selling the Volt at a loss because they want the company to appear profitable before its long-awaited initial stock offering, which is likely to take place next month. For taxpayers, that approach might have made sense if the government planned on selling its entire 61 percent stake in G.M. But the administration has said it will sell only enough equity in the public offering to relinquish its controlling stake in G.M. Thus the government will remain exposed to the company’s (and the Volt’s) long-term fate.
So the future of General Motors (and the $50 billion taxpayer investment in it) now depends on a vehicle that costs $41,000 but offers the performance and interior space of a $15,000 economy car. The company is moving forward on a second generation of Volts aimed at eliminating the initial model’s considerable shortcomings. (In truth, the first-generation Volt was as good as written off inside G.M., which decided to cut its 2011 production volume to a mere 10,000 units rather than the initial plan for 60,000.) Yet G.M. seemingly has no plan for turning its low-volume “eco-flagship” into a mass-market icon like the Prius.
Quantifying just how much taxpayer money will have been wasted on the hastily developed Volt is no easy feat. Start with the $50 billion bailout (without which none of this would have been necessary), add $240 million in Energy Department grants doled out to G.M. last summer, $150 million in federal money to the Volt’s Korean battery supplier, up to $1.5 billion in tax breaks for purchasers and other consumer incentives, and some significant portion of the $14 billion loan G.M. got in 2008 for “retooling” its plants, and you’ve got some idea of how much taxpayer cash is built into every Volt.
In the end, making the bailout work — whatever the cost — is the only good reason for buying a Volt. The car is not just an environmental hair shirt (a charge leveled at the Prius early in its existence), it is an act of political self-denial as well.
If G.M. were honest, it would market the car as a personal donation for, and vote of confidence in, the auto bailout. Unfortunately, that’s not the kind of cross-branding that will make the Volt a runaway success.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/30/opinion/30neidermeyer.html?_r=2&ref=opinion&pagewanted=print
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35. Author: Stinkdyr
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Date: 08/02/2010 10:38 AM
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so many union jobs saved at taxpayer expense so they will vote to re-elect the brave politicians.
the electric Chevy VOTE!
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36. Author: DrMaddVibe
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Date: 08/02/2010 10:40 AM
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LOL!
If you ever were in a GM shop during an election cycle you’d understand that there’s no way that base is pulling the knob for anyone other than what they’re told!
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37. Author: topper7788
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Date: 08/02/2010 02:07 PM
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Interesting article sighted above, flawed but interesting. First off the author says one problem with the Volt is that GM is selling it at a profit?.. Ok you got me there, I think the reason we bailed GM out was to preserve jobs and make sure GM came out of the BK being able to stand on it’s own? He also sights the tax credit, Ok last time I checked Nissan and my personal fav Tesla will Also get the same... So will all Electric cars for now, that’s a flaw with the Volt?
Next he sights the car will only seat 4? ok ever sit in a Prius? Then he states it’s looks like a Prius, again yes it’s has a very aerodynamic body, the thing is supposed to be, but it will never be confused with a Prius like the Honda is regularly, now that looks like a Prius; unfortunately the prototype was a aerodynamic stone and GM knew it could never be an actual model...but it was sharp looking!!!
As far as the auto bailout in general, that’s certainly a debatable issue, but the overwhelming consensus is that it worked and saved TONS of jobs and was certainly the lesser of two evils at the time.
As far as the car being a success or not, let the market decide... Personally I think GM will easily sell out it’s first two years projected production at a profit... I believe GM plans on selling about 80,000 over the first 2 years... how long till Tesla sells 80,000 cars???
Wow so much negativity for a model that has not hit the streets?
If the author is correct and GM is going to offer a $350 a month lease People will be lined up. factor gas saving etc the car will be a DEAL with a Capitol D
Well it’s an interesting debate, we will all see. Again I think GM will sell everyone they can build, at least for now...
And again for the record, it’s not exactly my cup of tea, but after 30 plus years in the car business I have learned one thing. It’s not what I like or dislike, it’s what the public likes or dislikes and the market will decide if this car is a success of failure, not a couple of newspaper auto writers...also most trade writers think the bailout is the one good thing Obama has done and also believe the care will be a success, but what do they know they only cover the industry.
I really need to start to use my computer rather than my phone for these posts, the typos are wow all over the place SORRY...
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38. Author: DrMaddVibe
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Date: 08/02/2010 02:12 PM
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GM has already decided it’s a bust.
Like I already said..."They screwed the pooch" and they’re doing it again.
I’m not going to give them the rope to hang themselves anymore. You can turn a blind eye and bury your head in the sand. GM will go bankrupt again. Just watch. They’re doing nothing but taking a 17,000.00 car slapping battery packs onto it and trying to sell it for 41,000.00? Sorry, but if I’m in the market for one, I’ll take your personal favorite hands down and have some fun with the speed they deliver not the Nissan Leafblower or the GM Vote!
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39. Author: topper7788
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Date: 08/02/2010 02:25 PM
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DMV
A- I’m only giving my opinion...
B - go ahead and write the check old buddy, heck with tax and tag it’s only about $120,000 large... very practical.....and as a sports car let’s see $110,000 you have no better choices out there like maybe a 600 plus horsepower Corvette... Oh, wait that’s made by GM, must lice a piece of junk compared to a Tesla.....
And GM has given up on it? Gee that’s news as the trades and GM’s blog are all over the thing...
If it sells it’s a winner, if it doesn’t it’s not... it really isn’t that difficult of a concept?
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40. Author: DrMaddVibe
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Date: 08/02/2010 02:37 PM
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Wow...the article that you’re fawning all over even states that GM has already cut production. BEFORE it hits the showroom floor!
PS: that was an OP/Ed piece.
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41. Author: topper7788
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Date: 08/02/2010 02:49 PM
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DMV,
Huh, cutting production???
fawning? just commenting.... again, ALL I am saying is the market will decide if this car is a success or failure, not the CBID, or other pundits... (Myself included by the way)
Copy and paste below:
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GM will increase Volt production by 50% - to 45,000 units - in 2012
by Autoblog Staff (RSS feed) on Jul 30th 2010 at 2:29PM
"President Obama toured the General Motors’ Detroit-Hamtramck facility where the automaker will build (can we say "is building" yet?) the Chevrolet Volt today, and as any good PR person will surely agree, you can’t let an opportunity like that go by without making an announcement of some sort. So, GM has something to say and it’s big news, too: GM will increase Volt production capacity by 50 percent in 2012.
Details are as follows: Instead of making 30,000 Volts in the U.S. in 2012, GM will now make 45,000. These numbers are lower than production numbers we heard rumors of in years past, but they’re good news for fans of plug-in vehicles. Is the increase a response to positive reaction to the Volt’s $33,500 after-tax-rebate price tag? Maybe, GM said in a statement that, "In the past few weeks, more than 25,000 people have joined the Chevrolet Volt enthusiast list."
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Sorry, I was wrong 75,000 over the first 2 years, not 80... I was using that number from memory...
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42. Author: topper7788
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Date: 08/02/2010 02:50 PM
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Reply
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DMV,
Well at least your not calling me names yet... We are making progress.... haha...
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43. Author: HockeyDad
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Date: 08/02/2010 02:58 PM
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This car is going to do well because the government is going to change the playing field. People just need to see what is coming.
The HockeyDad and "his people" are already discussing what needs to happen to convert the USA from a gasoline country to an electricity country.
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44. Author: DrafterX
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Date: 08/02/2010 03:12 PM
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^ no way man... oil rules!!
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45. Author: HockeyDad
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Date: 08/02/2010 03:16 PM
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Oil’s rule is going to be artificially ended well before its natural course has been run.
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46. Author: DrafterX
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Date: 08/02/2010 03:19 PM
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I haven’t seen any hemp fields being harvested....
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47. Author: HockeyDad
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Date: 08/02/2010 03:20 PM
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That is because the major commercial agricultural companies keep the world’s premier food source away from public view.
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48. Author: DrafterX
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Date: 08/02/2010 03:27 PM
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49. Author: izkeh
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Date: 08/02/2010 05:12 PM
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Look, I don’t want to see GM fail epically with this car, most American’s probably don’t but there are already so many strikes against this thing and no one’s even driven one:
1. $41,000 (less $7,500 tax credit) sticker price
2. Seats 4 (and from all accounts it doesn’t have a ton of room in the back)
3. Engine takes premium gas
4. GM to offer $350/month, 36 month leases on this car. Three years from the first year’s production run does GM really think people are going to be snatching these off lease or ponying up to pay off the residual? Unless it exceeds people’s expectations these will become Chrysler’s (NO resale value)
5. Taxpayers have funded much of this "venture" and many are not happy with the way the government has handled....well, many are just not happy with the government for a variety of reasons and the Volt stinks of government.
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50. Author: jpotts
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Date: 08/02/2010 05:32 PM
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Topper:
In response to the following:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
GM will increase Volt production by 50% - to 45,000 units - in 2012
by Autoblog Staff (RSS feed) on Jul 30th 2010 at 2:29PM
"President Obama toured the General Motors’ Detroit-Hamtramck facility where the automaker will build (can we say "is building" yet?) the Chevrolet Volt today, and as any good PR person will surely agree, you can’t let an opportunity like that go by without making an announcement of some sort. So, GM has something to say and it’s big news, too: GM will increase Volt production capacity by 50 percent in 2012.
Details are as follows: Instead of making 30,000 Volts in the U.S. in 2012, GM will now make 45,000. These numbers are lower than production numbers we heard rumors of in years past, but they’re good news for fans of plug-in vehicles. Is the increase a response to positive reaction to the Volt’s $33,500 after-tax-rebate price tag? Maybe, GM said in a statement that, "In the past few weeks, more than 25,000 people have joined the Chevrolet Volt enthusiast list."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I would point out to you the following:
1) These predictions are from a company that essentially went belly-up.
2) It is from a company that now admits it killed off more dealerships than it should have.
3) Since this is the first genuine production run of a car that has never been built before, they have no frickin’ idea how many they’re going to actually sell.
4) The vehicle is being released during a terrible economic recession where fewer people have $33,000.00 to burn for a turd on wheels.
5) Since the government is involved (and was the driving force behind several major blunders with the automotive sector) we have no idea who is generating these economic forcasts, and whether they are even credible.
6) The people now in charge of GM - namely the government - is the same groupd that gave us Social Security (going defunct), Medicare (going defunct), Medicaid (going defunct), the Post Office (financially insolvent), a massive national debt, and Midnight Basketball (ineffective).
If the Volt does well, all the better for GM (and maybe the government will decide to finally relinquish control). However, history and present circumstances ain’t on the Volt’s side at this point.
But you keep that happy, happy, joy, joy vibe going.
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51. Author: wheelrite
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Date: 08/02/2010 05:35 PM
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Prediction..
The Gov’t will buy most of these and then Herald the sales figures.
wheel,
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52. Author: DrMaddVibe
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Date: 08/02/2010 05:36 PM
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53. Author: Thunder.Gerbil
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Date: 08/02/2010 05:36 PM
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54. Author: DrMaddVibe
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Date: 08/02/2010 05:37 PM
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55. Author: wheelrite
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Date: 08/02/2010 05:40 PM
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56. Author: HockeyDad
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Date: 08/02/2010 05:40 PM
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Mark my words! Mark my words I tell you.
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57. Author: topper7788
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Date: 08/02/2010 06:04 PM
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Potts,
I wouldn’t debate you period... My thoughts on if this thing is going to sell or not is only based on what I have heard...
My friends who still have jobs at what remains of the Chevrolet dealer network seem to think based on what they are seeing that the car will easily sell out. For one thing 30,000 units is not high volume by any means, quite frankly in GM terms that’s a very low production run... Unless you a Tesla dealer than its a magic fairy dust dream :)
The gubment had no hand in development of the car as it was designed and well into pre production long before the US owned the place..
Plus from what I hear the government is not interjecting in day to day operations at this time of Chrysler or GM. That’s what I have been told for what its worth...
And for the umptenth time, I have no idea if this is a great car or a pile of junk, just all the comments from those not in the know seem to be pre judging this thing before they have even drove one? Seems a little premature to me?
I spoke with a sales manager in NY I know that told me they had TONS of interest but don’t even have a clue as to how many they are getting only that he expects them to all be presold at MSRP... From a dealer prospective, that’s a success but only time will tell..
I truly hope the car is a success, I have lots of friends in the business and what has happened over the last few years has been terrible.. Time for a couple of victories so to say..
$33,000 for a car nowadays is NOT big money, certainly not cheap but still well into the popular pricing range and below near and luxury models.
There is supposed to be a Cadillac version coming down the road that is supposedly a really nice car and of course will be priced as such. GM can build a good world class car, the New CTS and more than proof of that
Again, that is what I have been told by dealer friends of mine. I have no first hand insight any longer...
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58. Author: Mr. Jones
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Date: 08/02/2010 10:05 PM
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Even if they put a Honda lawnmower motor in the damn thing(to extend the range for 50 miles on gas at 35mph) as a back up to get you home, it still doesn’t make much sense unless you are a city dweller.
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59. Author: topper7788
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Date: 08/02/2010 10:18 PM
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http://www.chevrolet.com/pages/open/default/future/volt.do
This may answer some questions as to what the Volt does and doesn’t etc...
But hey, since it is GM’s website you probably can’t trust what it says and will get better info here !!! lol
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60. Author: wheelrite
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Date: 08/02/2010 10:26 PM
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Topper,,
I’ve been in the car biz for 25 yrs.I honestly believe there is little or no market for this car.It is impractical at 1/2 the price.
There are far better options.
Bio diesel
CNG
etc..
wheel,
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61. Author: edsbar60
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Date: 08/02/2010 10:47 PM
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Only 30,000? They’ll sell those in their sleep.
It’s kind of silly to slam this car before it even comes out. I remember a few Detroit guys slamming the Prius 10 years ago and saying it will fail. It’s still around.
I’m a motorhead and can’t imagine driving anything with less than a V-8 in it. Torque is king with me. But times are changing and the price of gas will never go back to 1.50/gallon, regardless. It’s hard to let go of 150 year old technology but unless serious advancements in the combustion engine are made then we’re SOL. A combustion engine is very inefficient using about 20%(?) of the energy of gasoline. I’m sure there are guys smarter than me here that know the exact figure. If the big players would actually allow development of a more efficient combustion engine and not just an efficient delivery system (like Direct Injection)then we’d see F350 duallys actually getting 50+mpg or better. (Google Massive Yet Tiny engines as an example)
However, I don’t believe electric cars or hybrids will be the standard in the future unless/until a battery can be developed made from sufficient raw resources that won’t run out. And that battery can run more than 40 miles without a charge. Lithium-Ion is longer lasting but still needs many improvements in the manufacturing process to become sturdier for vehicle use and less expensive in the manufacturing process.
Matter/anti-matter, put your bills in that. That’s the ticket.
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62. Author: Thunder.Gerbil
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Date: 08/02/2010 11:40 PM
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========
60. Author: wheelrite Date: 08/02/2010 10:26 PM Reply
Topper,,
I’ve been in the car biz for 25 yrs
========
LOL.
I like you Bill, but polishing hubcaps for a living is hardly "the car business".
While alternative fuels are great in theory, but some have some very serious issues. CNG is probably the most viable right now, so long as you don’t have to travel too far from a CNG station.
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63. Author: Thunder.Gerbil
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Date: 08/02/2010 11:42 PM
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(rest of post...)
Given the options of your gut feeling or Topper’s gut feelings on the sales, I’d go with the guy who used to manage and own dealerships for decades (hint: not you, sorry)
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64. Author: Thunder.Gerbil
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Date: 08/02/2010 11:46 PM
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Ed, if torque is king, electric is your wet dream.
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65. Author: teelio
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Date: 08/03/2010 06:26 AM
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Made up "facts" - check
Angry mob - check
Artificially politicized - check
Condescending attitude, coupled with unrivaled ignorance - check
Obama’s fault - check
Blaming unions for poor executive management - check
Requisite blathering about socialism - check
Why do I get the feeling that this topic appeared on Fox news before it showed up here?
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66. Author: wheelrite
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Date: 08/03/2010 06:59 AM
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TG,
Before I started my biz.I was a Salesman a Mgr and a GSM at several dealerships here in Dallas for 15 years.
Just so ya know..
wheel,
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67. Author: grmcooper
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Date: 08/03/2010 09:14 AM
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68. Author: topper7788
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Date: 08/03/2010 09:33 AM
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Wheel,
Last comment (I hope)
Success of the Volt will be solely based on if the car delivers what it promises... Basically a viable alternative to a gas powered vehicle.
It is a true Gen 1 vehicle, much to improve and much will improve in Gen 2 , 3 etc. Just look how far Toyota has come with gas/electric hybrid.. Electric or hybrid electric, or CNG or Nuclear or whatever IS going to finally replace the gas burning internal combustion engine as we know it will come when and I mean when it is financially viable and not until then.
That will take place in I have no true idea.. Send gas prices to $5 a gallon and watch how successful the Volt and all high mileage vehicles will be.. The car companies will be scrambling to put electric, hybrid, piss in the tank , whatever is cheaper to power into the MARKET.. I have said for years the market place will decide what is successful PERIOD!!
Many things could effect that, tax, oil embargo etc. What is a deal today could be a stone tomorrow.. Remember what happened to truck and large vehicle sales when fuel prices spike...
There is plenty of market for a low volume popularly priced alternative fuel vehicle.. Could GM sell 1,000,000 of these NO WAY but 75,000 in 2 years. As mentioned above that is a slams dunk and they could probably sell 3 times that much easily if they could build that many. Technology will improve, gas will get more expensive the future is coming whether we like it or not.. (Hopefully so will the iPhone spell checker lol)
For me, I drive a M35, the mileage sucks and quite frankly as soon as I have a few bucks to burn I’ll buy another Corvette as a toy... But you can’t deny the long term future for the gas only powered car is on the clock... I don’t see a hybrid in my near future, but say a Cadi version at $499 zero down I could see one in my wife’s. is the gas powered car dead, Not in our lifetime, but very likely in our kids and definitely in our grand kids....
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69. Author: cbc812
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Date: 08/03/2010 10:12 AM
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70. Author: topper7788
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Date: 08/03/2010 10:19 AM
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^
Actually for the most part his has been a civil, intelligent (well I may be pushing it) discussion...
No one has even been called gay yet!!!!!
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71. Author: Thunder.Gerbil
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Date: 08/03/2010 10:37 AM
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RE #66
I’m aware of that already. Throwing it out there to back a logicless, factless argument is kind of pointless though.
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72. Author: Thunder.Gerbil
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Date: 08/03/2010 10:37 AM
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73. Author: edsbar60
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Date: 08/03/2010 01:43 PM
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^Electric torque just ain’t the same. Need the feel and rumble, too.
Ohh and Fag!
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74. Author: jpotts
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Date: 08/03/2010 10:01 PM
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62. Author: Thunder.Gerbil Date: 08/02/2010 11:40 PM Reply
While alternative fuels are great in theory, but some have some very serious issues. CNG is probably the most viable right now, so long as you don’t have to travel too far from a CNG station.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Or get in an accident.
The downfall of any vehicle that has any sort of fuel held "compressed" is that the tank can rupture duing an accident, and result in an explosion (or a missile launch).
Biodiesel is a nice concept, and belive it or not is being put out there in certain states. The downside is that you need additives to keep the fuel from freezing during the winter.
Ethanol - if they can ever get a good process that creates it from cellulose - is perhaps one of the best solutions, mainly because the technology to simply add it as a fuel source to a fleet of vehicles already exists, and has been tested for decades. The problem at present it that we’re using stuff fermented from corn, which is probably the *worst* way to do it.
Then again, they already have processes to turn organic material - namely: wood chips - into petroleum. It looks like in ten years we may be brewing as much oil as we drill.
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75. Author: gringococolo
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Date: 08/03/2010 10:03 PM
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Hemp oil is the answer Jeff.
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76. Author: jpotts
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Date: 08/03/2010 10:15 PM
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topper7788:
You talk to dealer friends. I deal with the guys who make this stuff. My former boss is at present working on an electric vehicle for a major automotive company as we speak.
While I’m glad you’re enthused, I ask that you please spare me the hype. All this talk about the Volt being the Model T of the electic car is a bit too much. They’ve been trying to push electric cars for decades now, and no one is buying. And while they’ve made large strides with the technology, these overpriced turds can’t even match the most basic he gasoline-powered vehicles.
And please don’t tell me that the government isn’t pressuring GM to get this thing rolled out. The only reason that thing is living and breathing is because when gas prices went through the roof, and Democrats took over Congress in 2006, some one at the top of the GM food chain started reading the tea leaves.
Plus, this thing was supposed to be a pure electric vehicle. They scrapped that idea when they couldn’t get the damn thing to work. And no, I’m not exaggerating in the least.
I’ll be the first one to agree that the concept of a hybrid that uses an electric motor is sound. It is even simplier to implement than what they’ve done with the Prius (which, I might add, was pioneered by GM back in the 1970s). In fact, if you wanted to make a hybrid, and cheaply, that would be the way to go.
So one has to wonder why, when they developed the Prius, Toyota didn’t go the all-electric route?
My other issue is the subsidies. You essentially tax the people who buy the Volt, so you can give them a subsidy to buy the Volt in the first place. If the car was so frickin’ great, it’d sell without the subsidy.
The government didn’t subsuidize CD players or personal computers when they first came out, did they?
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77. Author: adroomi420c
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Date: 08/03/2010 10:23 PM
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Potts if you had a fucking clue you’d actually be worth a shit.
Look over the ocean and see how Biofuel and electric cars are doing.
Keep pushing them V8’s bro, you’re a dying breed, and we need a few of you old assholes to die off so we can evolve and grow.
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78. Author: Thunder.Gerbil
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Date: 08/03/2010 11:12 PM
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RE #74
Yes Jeff, I know, we’ve had that discussion at length offline before.
I never said CNG was the best, just the most viable right now - at least here, there are CNG filling stations all over the place in Northern CA, and we’ve been running it up here for over a decade, maybe two.
Is it the best? Nah.
Does it work? Yah.
Does it work well? Yah.
Is it really convenient? Yah.
All the issues you cite with the other fuels are why I put CNG at the top of the viability list right now.
Some discovery might change that list next month too, at which point, I’ll change my opinion and just say "Yup. I did say that THEN. Things are different now." Not a big deal to me.
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79. Author: HockeyDad
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Date: 08/03/2010 11:22 PM
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Adroomi,
Tell us about how biofuel and electric cars are doing across the pond.
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80. Author: 8VA
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Date: 08/03/2010 11:24 PM
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Actually Pottsie and Wheelwrong both need to get a clue. Without writing a version of the Encyclopedia (ala JPotts), I’ll try to be as brief as possible, although after all the "factual irregularities" from these two buffoons, I almost don’t know where to begin. First of all, I’ve been a gearhead all my life. I currently own everything from a high performance V8 sports car to a fairly new Toyota Prius plus a few ecclectic vehicles from the sixties, seventies, and eighties. As far as the Prius is concerned, it has 135,000 miles, has been basically trouble free, and has never AVERAGED BETWEEN FILLUPS less than 49 MPG. And believe me, I am no fan of Toyota after their handling of their recent safety issues.
As far as the Chevy Volt is concerned, its development goes back years, long before the Federal Government bailout of GM and therefore it is not the result of taxpayer funding. It also is a true electrically powered vehicle with a gas engine to power a "backup generator" which recharges a depleted main battery. Propulsion is strictly from the electric motor, unlike the Prius and other hybrids that are propelled by both electric and gas motors. The Volt’s gas powered generator gives the Volt the range of most gasoline only powered vehicles.
GM just announced they are increasing first year production of the Volt from 30,000 to 45,000 vehicles, indicating as optimistic assessment of its success.
It goes without saying that we need to drastically reduce our consumption of fossil fuels. Hybrids, plug-in hybrids, and electric only vehicles are a strong step in the right directions. But until we drag the neaderthals like Pottsie and Wheelwrong into the 20th century, it’s going to be a difficult uphill battle.
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81. Author: adroomi420c
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Date: 08/04/2010 12:49 AM
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Good post, friend. It won’t however be difficult to drag them into the new thang. Sometimes change just sorta becomes a learn or leave, live or die, evolve or go extinct situation. Yes, I’m one of those freaks that believes in Prophecy. It’s the trips into the head I s’pose.
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82. Author: nir6van6a
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Date: 08/04/2010 01:04 AM
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I didn’t read novel here, so forgive me I’d any redundancy.
The volt is not a car that’s R&D was paid for with bailout money. However, the car is a shining example of the dangers and flaws of socialist thinking. When we took over GM and then gave ownership over to the UAW, we lost some things. The government needs to show it is getting paid back for the bailout of GM. GM can’t cut costs in healthcare or pensions or labor because the union owns them. How do you solve this equation? Redistribution of wealth of course. GM can’t sell the car at a loss because it needs to payback the Fed. GM knows ^no or will pay 40k+ for a car that is a Chevy.
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83. Author: nir6van6a
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Date: 08/04/2010 01:07 AM
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*GM knows no one will pay 40k+ required to make a profit. How do they fix it so everyone gets paid? 7500 dollar tax credit. Sounds simple, but using fed money to help get fed money back is very sound economics... The company is still being bailed out to this day by the fed. I bet that 7500 credit happens to be the number the company needs to make a profit to "pay back" the fed. It’s a circle jerk and I’m surprised people don’t see that. I don’t want to discuss the merits of an electric car here just the car from a business perspective so sorry if I’m adding nothing.
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84. Author: nir6van6a
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Date: 08/04/2010 01:09 AM
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Sorry for T9 typos above - iPhone
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85. Author: DrMaddVibe
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Date: 08/04/2010 06:48 AM
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#83...No, you wrote out a point that I poorly made in an earlier post.
I have a serious problem with this kind of highway robbery.
Was the thing funded with bailout money? Of course not.
This has been a project for GM for quite some time and they were an industry leader until they decided they didn’t want to (much like NASA and the global space race to Mars!).
The decisions made to create it were made by the same ones that ran it into the shore. Nothing changes. GM will end up going bankrupt again. I’m willing to even say that they pull another EV-1 and kill off the Volt.
Taking the bailout money and then essentially putting batteries in a car that sells for under 20K yet charge over 40K????
Good luck. I’m not buying it. Not from GM!
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86. Author: topper7788
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Date: 08/04/2010 09:24 AM
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Ok let’s summarize this thread and move on..
The volt sucks,
How do you know this you no one has even reviewed it yet?
GM sucks
Well maybe, then again maybe not
Volt runs on gas
No
Yes
No
Volt sucks
Well maybe but why don’t we look at it first
No the volt will suck and it won’t sell
Yes GM can sell it’s production
GM will go BK
Why
Volt sucks
GM sucks
Electric cars are good, just not GM electric cars because the government is making them sell it
No the government is not
Yes it is
No it’s not
I won’t buy it therefore it sucks oh and GM sucks too
Elective cars are new and will improve
No Volt sucks I read it
-------------------------------------------------------------------
so in summing up, the Volt may or may not suck, GM may may not suck, electric/hybrid cars may or may not suck
Did I miss anything?
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87. Author: nir6van6a
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Date: 08/04/2010 09:31 AM
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Yes^
The American tax dollar is once again being used to prop up GM. If there were no tax credits, I could care less and would wish them luck. How many times can bail out the same company?
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88. Author: grmcooper
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Date: 08/04/2010 09:35 AM
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^
As many as it takes.
In WW2 who built everything for the war?
The big 3
No big 3 might as well start to speak chinese now.
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89. Author: plinytheelder
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Date: 08/04/2010 11:51 AM
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Exactly Mike. Too bad people forget that.
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90. Author: HockeyDad
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Date: 08/04/2010 11:53 AM
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There will be no more big wars.
Globalization has eliminated that threat.
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91. Author: teedubbya808
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Date: 08/04/2010 11:58 AM
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I find the whole thing ReVolting
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92. Author: nir6van6a
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Date: 08/04/2010 01:30 PM
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Coop- in that sense I agree. Manufacturing as a whole is a national security issue, as well as steel and oil.
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93. Author: HockeyDad
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Date: 08/04/2010 01:37 PM
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It looks like Wheelrite will finally get a thread to get to 100 posts.
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94. Author: nir6van6a
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Date: 08/04/2010 04:08 PM
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My issue Mike is that the spin on the tax credit and the "profitability " of the company is lie. Be honest and say having a vehicle manufacturer on our soil is a national security issue and people won’t be so upset. It’s the lies that infuriates me and I think everyone else. We won WWII because of our production capabilities. We could produce more tanks/vehicles and planes and bullets than the Nazis and the Japanese could destroy them.
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95. Author: 8VA
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Date: 08/04/2010 04:19 PM
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The United States has been manufacturing less and less each year for the past 30 years except for the manufacturing of paper profits ala Goldman Sachs, Wall Street, et al. Until we start making something tangible, the economy will continue to fail. As we ship jobs overseas, the economy will fail. Believe me, I am no fan of the Big Three auto makers. However, the more cars they make here and sell anywhere, the better. The future is in green energy and technology, with cars that are less dependent upon fossil fuels. The future of this country is in manufacturing in general, and producing modes of transportation that are less hazardous to the environment.
Here in California, Carly Fiorina is running for U.S. Senator on her record of creating jobs while head of Hewlett Packard. Actually she did. She created over 5,000 jobs IN CHINA at the expense of American workers. And by the way, she was fired from Hewlett Packard for almost running it into the ground. This she won’t mention in any of her ads.
Bottom line, AMERICAN JOBS, AMERICAN PRODUCTS! And if the Volt will help us get us there, then it has my full support, even if I haven’t had a chance to road test it yet.
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96. Author: adroomi420c
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Date: 08/04/2010 04:23 PM
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We need a bunch of Mexicans to work for lower than minimum wage if we ever want to make that leap again.
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97. Author: 8VA
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Date: 08/04/2010 04:43 PM
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96. First of all, that’s insulting and I’m not even Hispanic. Second, you’re absolutely wrong. We need to go back to the business model we had whereby the CEO’s of major companies made only 40 times the salary of the average company employee instead of 400 times the average salary as they do now. Profit margins are now completely out of wack. Over the last 30 years, redistribution of wealth has become obscene. Something like 3% of the population control something like 95% of the wealth. I don’t know how many CEOs of large companies frequent this forum, but I would guess most of us are middle class working stiffs trying to keep our heads above water. How so many of you can defend the transformation of our democracy into the oligarchy we have now makes no sense. But then again, neither does Sarah Palin.
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98. Author: nir6van6a
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Date: 08/04/2010 05:06 PM
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8VA - you’re right! Down with evil rich! Redistibute their wealth to us! How dare they get paid what te owners of company (mostly us working class people are the owners through our 401k) voted to pay them! Maybe next time you get that brochure in the mail about the stock holders meetings you’ll check yes you are attending and go vote on their salary. Class warfare only results in the poor getting poorer. Except of course in China, Cuba, and te USSR where they all were rich and drove ferraris. Being pissed because someone makes obscenely more than you helps nothing.
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99. Author: nir6van6a
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Date: 08/04/2010 05:07 PM
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8VA - you’re right! Down with evil rich! Redistibute their wealth to us! How dare they get paid what te owners of company (mostly us working class people are the owners through our 401k) voted to pay them! Maybe next time you get that brochure in the mail about the stock holders meetings you’ll check yes you are attending and go vote on their salary. Class warfare only results in the poor getting poorer. Except of course in China, Cuba, and te USSR, and North Korea where they all were rich and drove ferraris. Being pissed because someone makes obscenely more than you helps nothing.
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100. Author: nir6van6a
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Date: 08/04/2010 05:08 PM
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You have a problem with a CEOs salary, buy the company stock and voice your opinion.
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101. Author: HockeyDad
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Date: 08/04/2010 05:30 PM
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Adroomi,
You aren’t even registering as a speed bump. Come on man, what the hell happened? You should be all over this thread.
...and when are you getting back down here to Florida?
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102. Author: adroomi420c
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Date: 08/04/2010 05:34 PM
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I see no point in casting my dick at ugly chicks (or pearls before swine for you oldschool believers).
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103. Author: HockeyDad
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Date: 08/04/2010 05:36 PM
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If we want to defend government control of the "Big 3" automakers on national security grounds, I have no problem with that. However....
We need to look at oil and natural gas resources and drill baby, drill instead of exporting and devaluing dollars to arab sheiks and Venezuela. We also need ot look at where compnaines like GE and Boeing who are doing work or outsourcing parts to a number of nations that in a time of crisis would result in a collpase of their business model for even the most basic of manaufacturing.
I offer an alternative solution to this whole "national security issue". We people who are in control at the major multinational corporations, repardless of where our corporate HQs are located, will always prevent another major global war because it is against our best interests. We may allow little conflicts like Israel versus whoever (Lebanon today) but that is actually good for the defense contractors.
You have our word on this.
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104. Author: apachelm
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Date: 08/13/2010 01:15 PM
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