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Last post 20 years ago by billyjackson. 41 replies replies.
PATRIOT ACT BY ASHCROFT THE HOLY
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#1 Posted:
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
Librarians Chafe Under Patriot Act Rules
BOULDER, Colo. (AP)--To Priscilla Hudson, public libraries are society's great equalizer, a place where anyone can go to learn regardless of their economic, social or political background.
So she doesn't much like Big Brother peering over their shoulder.
Hudson, manager of Boulder's main library, is among a number of librarians nationwide who oppose a provision in the USA Patriot Act that gives authorities access to records of what people check out from libraries or buy from bookstores.
The law is why Boulder librarians have lately been purging their files on patrons every week, not every couple of months. And experts say other libraries are doing similar things.
``Boulder is truly right in line with what other libraries are doing,'' said Deborah Caldwell-Stone of the American Library Association in Chicago.
The Justice Department says the Patriot Act, put in place after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, is crucial in the war on terrorism. Critics say it gives the government too much power.
Attorney General John Ashcroft defended the USA Patriot Act at a news conference Thursday, saying subpoenas of business or library records are subject to greater scrutiny by judges under the anti-terrorism law than those issued under regular criminal investigations.
Ashcroft also said the Justice Department is required by law to report details of its use of these powers, which are classified, twice a year to Congress.
``So you have both the legislative branch of the government and the judicial branch of the government making sure that there aren't abuses,'' Ashcroft said.
Also on Thursday, Sen. Russ Feingold introduced legislation that would limit the FBI's ability to gather library, bookstore and other records under the act.
The Wisconsin Democrat, the only senator to vote against the Patriot Act, said it makes sense to give authorities some access, but ``we can protect both our nation and our privacy and civil liberties.''
The previous day, the American Civil Liberties Union and several Islamic groups filed a lawsuit in Detroit against using the act to let FBI agents monitor the books people read.
The ACLU also said that under a provision of the law, librarians can't tell the patron that the library has given the records to the government, and would be legally bound to secrecy forever.
Even before the lawsuit, librarians across the country had been waging their own form of protest.
The Santa Cruz, Calif., library is shredding its sign-in sheets for using the computers more often, Caldwell-Stone said. Other libraries have posted signs warning patrons that federal authorities may review their records.
The Montana Library Association passed a resolution saying it considers parts of the Patriot Act ``a present danger to the constitutional rights and privacy rights to library users.'' Privacy rules there are so strict that Montana librarians must get children's permission before telling their parents what they're reading.
``More so than in other Western states, we have a real privacy feel to our Constitution and also our Montana code,'' said John Finn of Great Falls, head of the library association.
Government officials emphasized that the act allows the government to obtain ``business records,'' which they said could include library records, though the act makes no mention of libraries.
Caldwell-Stone said libraries cooperate when presented with a search warrant for records. But she said the Patriot Act allows authorities to seize ``any relevant tangible item'' in an investigation without having to show probable cause that a crime was committed.
Forty-eight states have laws protecting library patrons' privacy, Caldwell-Stone said. The other two, Hawaii and Kentucky, have opinions by their attorneys general upholding the right.
``What the First Amendment protects and what goes on in your head isn't a basis for punishing you,'' she said.
John Suthers, U.S. attorney in Colorado, said he appreciates the concerns, but said the Patriot Act deals with business records and doesn't specify libraries and bookstores.
The law says the FBI cannot investigate a U.S. citizen on the basis of activities protected by the First Amendment, he said. Justice Department spokeswoman Barbara Comstock also said that part of the law requires court approval to obtain records.
Libraries and book stores across the country, however, support changing the law to make sure they aren't targeted. A book store in Montpelier, Vt., will purge purchase records for customers who ask.
The Tattered Cover Book Store in Denver, one of the country's largest independent book stores, won a fight last year to protect a customer's privacy. The Colorado Supreme Court refused to order the store to turn over purchase records in a drug investigation.
The justices said records of what a person reads are constitutionally protected, and police must show a compelling interest in seeing them.
Tattered Cover general manager Matt Miller said because of business considerations, the store isn't purging its records like the Vermont store.
``We certainly respect stores and libraries that choose to handle records in the way they do,'' Miller said. ``We spent two years trying to protect customers' privacy and First Amendment rights. It remains an integral part of our philosophy.''




usahog Offline
#2 Posted:
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
Rick your AOHell email don't work???

tried to send you a nice email and it kicked back to me?? you got me on Ignor? LMAO!!!!

Hog
billyjackson Offline
#3 Posted:
Joined: 08-19-2002
Posts: 2,860
I work at a Div I university library. The only thing the system keeps in it is what a person has checked out currently. Also, each item only logs the last patron to check it out...so Mein Kamp (sp?) would only show the last person to check it out, not everyone in the history of the library.

donutboy2000 Offline
#4 Posted:
Joined: 11-20-2001
Posts: 25,000
What do you have to hide?
mrtelcom Offline
#5 Posted:
Joined: 03-25-2004
Posts: 2,255
Next time you watch Planes Trains and Auto's .. notice the book John Candy is reading in the airport.
LMAO.
mrtelcom Offline
#6 Posted:
Joined: 03-25-2004
Posts: 2,255
Oh, and John Ashcrtoft is welcome to any stick I own. He is a fine American...
billyjackson Offline
#7 Posted:
Joined: 08-19-2002
Posts: 2,860
donut,

Are you asking the thread in general or me in particular...in general, it is not a matter of having anything to hide but to what lengths we are willing to go to combat terrorism. I am torn...part of me says "If you want to take away privacy (which is going to have to happen to some extent) of ordinary citizens, then at least torture the people in custody for terrorism until they spill their guts...if they don't do it for them."

The more realistic and moderate part of me says that information should be free domain. Other than current goings on concerning national security, I have no problem with people having pretty much uncensored access to information. Mein Kampf, the history of the KKK, the Crusades, etc. shouldn't be tracked because we are worried about people getting ideas from them. If your library has it, they you should be able to check it out without privacy fears.

Of course, another part of me says to hell with teaching everyone who wants to learn how to fly a commercial jet. We don't legally give everyone handguns (please do start on me about handguns...it's just a point of reference), why should we not be very strict on who gets to do things that are out of the ordinary. For those things (I'm not sure what all I'd put on the list), people ought to be clean and citizens in good standing.

This discussion has been going strong for 2-3 years. Pardon me for thinking that my 2 cents would matter now...but I already typed it all, so I'll post it.
JonR Offline
#8 Posted:
Joined: 02-19-2002
Posts: 9,740
HEY MOM ! Rick is cut and pasting again, why does he do that. " Well JonR when a person is unable to formulate their own ideas their only recourse is to cut and paste ". Oh geez Mom can we help him out, like maybe send him some books. " I'm afraid not son he will only tear out the pages and paste them on fences and poles ". Oh golly Mom I wish we could help him ! " Well JonR we can't so go outside and play, I'm watching our great President George W. Bush on television, now there's a intelligent man who know's how to formulate his own ideas ".
Robby Offline
#9 Posted:
Joined: 10-30-2002
Posts: 5,067
bingo billy... If you have "nothing to hide", then why do we need to worry about illegal search and seizure? The right to remain silent? etc... I mean, as long as we have nothing to hide... I fear government power gone wild "regardless" of what I do or do not have to hide.
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#10 Posted:
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
: usahog

sorry. i am now
RICKAMAVEN
HOTMAIL
COM
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#11 Posted:
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
JonR

my best regards to your mother and i hope she is well.

don't tell her anything i say, i don't want to upset her in any way.

but you and i both know w is a complete moron.
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#12 Posted:
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
Robby

his IQ i would guess in the mid 80's. and that's not cut and paste.
cwilhelmi Offline
#13 Posted:
Joined: 07-24-2001
Posts: 2,739
"If you are willing to give up freedom for safety you deserve neither" - Ben Franlin
cwilhelmi Offline
#14 Posted:
Joined: 07-24-2001
Posts: 2,739
FranKlin that is...
TurboFC3S Offline
#15 Posted:
Joined: 05-06-2003
Posts: 131
Thank you for the perfect quote at the perfect time cwilhelmi.

How many innocent Americans do you think have had their homes searched, their possessions taken, and their freedom stolen from them by overzealous prosecutors and police? If you think "having nothing to hide" will be your veil of safety, then you my friend are a fool.

Wake up people, you're all being pacified into blind government dependancy and trust.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#16 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,591
How many?
cwilhelmi Offline
#17 Posted:
Joined: 07-24-2001
Posts: 2,739
DR - With our current shadow government, we'll NEVER know...
TurboFC3S Offline
#18 Posted:
Joined: 05-06-2003
Posts: 131
Actually, I was going to say guess ... we can play the guessing game. I guess 465,377
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#19 Posted:
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
TurboFC3S

nice to hear another voice in the darkness.. i think it might be getting lighter.
usahog Offline
#20 Posted:
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
I know one damn thing.. a Game Warden has more rights then a US Marshal... and they can even walk into your house without a Warrent, and take your beer out of your Fridge. confiscate your guns, empty your freezers,Take your Truck, and anything else they deem necessary!!!

just before he started out the door I asked him how much it was going to cost me?














To Take my Ex Wife and keep Her?


Hog
choner Offline
#21 Posted:
Joined: 02-04-2003
Posts: 876
Ashcroft seems to protect the NRA, because he won't let the government go through their files on members. Hmmmm...I wonder why? I hope this doesn't anger JonR but here is a cut and paste:

"After September 11, the Justice Department rounded up over 1,200 men suspected of ties to terrorist organizations. The FBI went to work, making background checks -- with one exception. By edict of the attorney general, the FBI was prohibited from looking into records of gun ownership. Even though current law dictates holding receipts of gun purchases for 90 days, Ashcroft agreed with NRA policy that records should be destroyed after 24 hours. Not even the war on terror could shake Ashcroft's allegiance to the NRA."

I agree with Robby that those who are clean have nothing to hide. But does the government have that right to search?

choner
Robby Offline
#22 Posted:
Joined: 10-30-2002
Posts: 5,067
absolute power corrupts "absolutely"...
DrMaddVibe Offline
#23 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,591
You can say that again.
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#24 Posted:
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
all this has nothing to do with "do you have anything to hide"

i think you younger guys have missed the point. it's none of the governments business what i read or what i think. this is not some banana republic run by a dictator. is ashcroft the thought police?

you guys are willing to give up some of your freedom to make sure you are safe. safe from what? the weekly threats the administration announces as they see fit? when the **** hit the fan 9/11 where were they. reading to little kids in school instead of getting something done or hiding someplace.

whether this administration did or did not know when the new pearl harbor was going to happen, they knew something was going to happen. the saudi family was the only plane given clearance to take off. and of course this crap about saddam being behind it all.

why didn't we take his sons alive so they could have been interrogated? what kind of low class nation needs to show the dead bodies?

question. don't you find the number of "accidents" that are killing our kids a bit high? are some of these or most, in reality more killing of our armed forces by iraq's, but not reported that way to save face. there are more accidents involving military vehicles than i can imagine. are guys can't drive all of a sudden. we are knee deep in **** in iraq and no way to get out.

of course we could always do what we should have done in vietnam, declare victory, and get the hell out. do we really care what the iraq's do to each other? i don't.

speaking of impeachment,
billyjackson Offline
#25 Posted:
Joined: 08-19-2002
Posts: 2,860
Rick,

I'm not following the thread it seems...I only see two posts that possibly promote loosening privacy in exchange for freedom. Which "younger guys" are you getting on to?

Apologies in advance for overstepping my bounds.
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#26 Posted:
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
billyjackson

you have no bounds. please jump in whenever any one of us, especially me, has too much to say about anything.

i am going to print this and read it tomorrow. i may have been refering to previous threads.

i don't recognize the handle stranger, but pull up a chair and have a beer.
TurboFC3S Offline
#27 Posted:
Joined: 05-06-2003
Posts: 131
I'm with you Rick ... when the **** hits the fan, you'll have a place with 'friends' in the Midwest.
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#28 Posted:
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
[email protected]

can you say "john ashcroft is the kindest,
bravest, warmest, most wonderful
human being I've ever known in
my life.
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#29 Posted:
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
billyjackson

yes. i was refering to a history of posts that were intense at the time. bour freedom vs purported safety.

do you be a librarian. if so, does your library have a copy of " SEDUCTION OF THE INNOCENT" BY a doctor WERTHEM?

billyjackson Offline
#30 Posted:
Joined: 08-19-2002
Posts: 2,860
Rick,

Yep, we got it.

So who were the young guys you refered to?
usahog Offline
#31 Posted:
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
"question. don't you find the number of "accidents" that are killing our kids a bit high? are some of these or most, in reality more killing of our armed forces by iraq's, but not reported that way to save face. there are more accidents involving military vehicles than i can imagine. are guys can't drive all of a sudden. we are knee deep in **** in iraq and no way to get out." From Rick

To Rick, you yourself have never been to that Region.. so how can you sit at your monitor and derail the findings of Accedents that are coming out of that region? your an Insurance man right? only thing is you live/work in an area where the weather is relativly the same all 4 seasons "Correct?" I have been deployed to the region where all these Incidents and our Young Men and Women are losing their lives to Accedents, #1 is Training ... allot of people are not trained to be driving in a region like that... #2 at the same time they "The Individuals" could have been deployed for many months now and what weighs on their minds and takes them away from their duty's at hand are things going on at home.. the living conditions as to where their at right now... being in a confrotation with a fellow worker because of his situation at home and his bitterness to amount of time on deployment... Moral call was missed... any number of things... but back to Vehical Incidents Accedents "because you can relate to that" if these folks were or were not properly Beifed as to how the Roads close up with drifting sand... and sand acts differently even more so then Snow.. then yes your going to have problems... Airman Johnny was driving from point A to Point B in a hurry because his CO told him time is Crutial... when a sandstrom had picked up a bit and knocked down his visablity to lets say 20% at the same time sand had drifted across the road in area's... he has still in the back of his mind what the CO had told him and trying to carry out his Orders as sufficiant as he can.. fails to decreas his speed and to that event when he comes across the drifted sand on the road his Vehical "Like Hitting a speed Bump in a parking lot" gets tossed into the air and on returning to the pavement he trys to decrease his speed and thus sand being like glass or wet oil on the road causes his vehical to slid sideways... unable to overcome this or over steering to try and compensate this rolls the vehical off into the desert... this is just a little example of something that could happen... you can also take into account these people over there do not have to go down to the Drivers facility and get a License... there givin one when they ask their government for one at a certian age.. age doesn't matter either... because their family are welthy.. daddy will give them the key's so the 8 yr old can take his buddy's down to the local street light that lights up the highway and they can get out in the sand (Parking their vehical on the Highway) and play soccer under the lights!!! thus here's a parked car on the highway at night... by the time someone see's it and their running 80 Klicks down the road... its almost toooo Late...

and you cannot rule out the wildlife in the region also... Camels or sheep/goats over there are not kept up in Fences... they roam... and they do whatever they damn well please... they don't know what a roadway is to them its all open pastures!!!!

So Rick go ahead and Hypothetically think that your Government and Military Officials are lieing their ass's off to you and the rest of the American Public to keep the actual KIA numbers down... but all in all... for Us (I do feel I can speak for my Brother's and Sister's who have been in that region and know what Driving and the other risks are like)Can See this actually happening... I'm sorry that it does... but you cannot get into every military members head and find out what events are going to occure that day for them!!! nor can you predict future events... if you can I Need my Loto Numbers and Uncle Sam Needs YOU!!!!

Let's see more of your Flower Pictures!!!

Hog
usahog Offline
#32 Posted:
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
Here let me add this Artical... and then I will Blame Cliton for this Loss of Life do to the Military cutbacks he put on the Military through his 8 yrs as KING!!!!

http://www.military.com/NewContent?file=Defensewatch_073103&ESRC=dod.nl

oh but wait... if that Marine had not deployed to cover Operation Iraqi Freedom... then he would not have been on that boat or had that old life preserver On... (Thats just my liberal side cutting loose.. just excuse Me)

Hog
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#33 Posted:
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
billyjackson

if i check it out and lose it, how much would i need to pay the library to replace it, or pay for my losing it. i'll bet it hasen't been checked out for years. maybe, the library will simply sell it to me so they can buy something more current. i hate the honest approach, but if it works... i am serious. i want to give it to one of my sons.

"So who were the young guys you refered to?" you can starve me, you can beat me, you can kill me, i'll never tell. i'm not a stoolie.

hint: many of them are to the right of me politically speaking.
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#34 Posted:
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
usahog

you are correct of course. i was just asking a few questions.

"your liberal side?" are you coming out of the closet?
usahog Offline
#35 Posted:
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
""your liberal side?" are you coming out of the closet? " ummmmm that would be followed up with a Statement like "NOT A CHANCE IN HELL!!!!!!"

Nice try though Rick LMAO!!!

Hog
mrtelcom Offline
#36 Posted:
Joined: 03-25-2004
Posts: 2,255
Rick -
I don't know, but I can say that he is a man that is doing what he believes in, doing what he believes is in the best interest of the country, is a man of solid word and conviction, has a moral compass that has never wavered, and I respect. If you don't agree, cool, Even Mr. Ashcroft would respect that.
mrtelcom Offline
#37 Posted:
Joined: 03-25-2004
Posts: 2,255
"safe from what?"

A. The next 9/11 and those that are working towards it.

"it's none of the governments business what i read or what i think"

A. It is also illegal for the government to use any information obtained that was not obtained for the expressive purpose for which it was obtained. i.e. if they take all records of library book records for the purpose of trending on people interested in Nuclear materials, they cannot use it if they notice someone likes child porn by accident. At least that is my understanding.

"why didn't we take his sons alive so they could have been interrogated?"

A. There was a firefight. Would you have risked the lives of those in your charge to say "capture alive only"? Someone shoots at my men, I say do what you are trained to do no matter who it is. Do you have discreet knowledge that they were sent to kill?

Arguing politics on the internet is a waste.. don't know why I am even typing this...

peace.. and happy Herfing.


cwilhelmi Offline
#38 Posted:
Joined: 07-24-2001
Posts: 2,739
Ashcroft is a patsy puppet. He only does what he's told! Anyone who thinks different is very naive...
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#39 Posted:
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
[email protected]

the net is the best place to debate or argue.

one gets to type what he wants to say. he can then review his sentences to make the most impact. when he is ready to make a point, he is not interrupted by someone who can talk louder.

in a group, someone usually holds the floor and those of us that are a little quieter can never get our opinions heard. isn't this great. i can listen to everything you have to say and grasp what you are thinking.

how about that book? any chance of getting it honestly?
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#40 Posted:
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
TurboFC3S

yes my compadre, little by little, inch by inch, it creeps.
xibbumbero Offline
#41 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2002
Posts: 12,535
Big Brother is watching. X
billyjackson Offline
#42 Posted:
Joined: 08-19-2002
Posts: 2,860
Rick,

The book was last checked in in November of 01. Not much for circulation statistics.

General policy is that if someone doesn't return a book, it is a standard $85 fee. I couldn't find it very many places online, but one site wanted $150 and a popular auction site (of course I can't tell you which one because damned if I'm going to put up with a Slim Slap) had it going for up to that also.

However, since it is out of print, the replacement cost might be higher...not sure.

Of course, this is all just FYI. I am not suggesting that you obtain our copy permanently.

Billy
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