America's #1 Online Cigar Auction
first, best, biggest!

Last post 20 years ago by usahog. 49 replies replies.
Alabama judge and the 10 Commandments
billyjackson Offline
#1 Posted:
Joined: 08-19-2002
Posts: 2,860
So, what are the thoughts regarding this matter?
al'Thor Offline
#2 Posted:
Joined: 06-17-2003
Posts: 2,793
leave it to you, billy......

As a very strong believer in the 10 Commandments both socially and spiritually and as a very strong believer in God, the Bible and Jesus Christ, my opinion is... it doesn't really matter.....the issue isn't what's up on the wall, it's what's in people's hearts and minds... as far as the semantics of the law.... it seems like a small,nit picky issue, that has a much deeper root..
Tobasco Offline
#3 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2003
Posts: 2,809

Today it's still there...there have been people there that say nobody is gonna move it...if a moving company moves it, there are threats of boycotting the company.

Mag
billyjackson Offline
#4 Posted:
Joined: 08-19-2002
Posts: 2,860
I would say that the 10 Commandments were probably actually written down during the Hebrew exile into Babylon which put them in contact with the traditions dating back to Hammurabi's code and that it is funny that people are so hell bent on having that rock in the courthouse so they can "acknowledge God" when the laws were probably adapted from much earlier, non-Yahweh-worshipping cultures.

But I won't say all that.
choner Offline
#5 Posted:
Joined: 02-04-2003
Posts: 876
Lord, I shall give these laws to thy people. Hear me, oh, hear me. All pay head. The Lord. The Lord Jehovah has given unto you these fifteen (Crash!) Oy. Ten! Ten Commandments. For all to obey!
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#6 Posted:
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
al'Thor

i am glad you are a believer. what's in your heart is your business.

i do not believe in a "god", your "bible, or christ as being the "son of god." and that's my business

my taxes pay for government buildings. keep your religious beliefs out of my buildings.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#7 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,591
My taxes go to pave roads that occasionally have a gay parade on it. Do I like it...no, but I'm not griping about it. It's built into the price of freedom, that and the majority thingy too.
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#8 Posted:
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
drmadvibe

if you are going to argue with logic, i don't stand a chance.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#9 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,591
There's no logic there Rick. You stated an opinion. The logic in the statement is that you're severly outnumbered. There are more people that tend to believe in a higher power than those that choose to believe in nothing.

The way I see it, is that "some" people read the Ten Commandments the the judge's docket wouldn't be so filled. No foul, no crime.
Homebrew Offline
#10 Posted:
Joined: 02-11-2003
Posts: 11,885
Hey DMV,
You are very right. I agree, that there are more of us, that believe in a higher power, than those who don't. But, what if my God, is different than your God. Is it fair, as I go to court, to see a monument expressing belief in Your God, but not mine, as I Go into the court. Am I going to get a fair trial????? Or am I going to be persecuted, because I believe in a different God?????? I believe it is a perception thing.
Just My .02
Later
Dave (A.K.A. Homebrew)
P.S. Let the judge, put the monument in his office, so people know where he stands. Not in the rotunda.
al'Thor Offline
#11 Posted:
Joined: 06-17-2003
Posts: 2,793
Rick,

That's funny... because my taxes pay for government buildings also, but your trying to put YOUR religious beliefs in those same buildings. Also funny that you would start addressing my comments (or just me) like that when if you had read with a more "open mind" like you claim to have, you would see that I AGREE WITH YOU. While I think that most of the people who founded this country believed in the Judeo-Christian God and established the government within the context of that belief, and I think our country would be a heck of a lot better if we all tried to obey the 10 commandments as well as considered government within a biblical context, I could care less whether the 10 commandments was up on some wall in some courthouse. I would die for your right to not believe in God, and I think there are much more productive ways to share your belief and ideas. Clear?
al'Thor Offline
#12 Posted:
Joined: 06-17-2003
Posts: 2,793
And when I say "more productive ways to share your belief and ideas" I mean, more productive than fighting for the 10 commandments to be up in some public courthouse.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#13 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,591
I would like to share with all of you the words of Patrick Henry. A founding father of the US. He was there in the beginning, so there must be some substance to his words that time cannot erase.

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great Nation was founded not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religious, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For that reason alone, people of other faiths have been afforded freedom of worship here."

And the most often quote of his that's taken out of context.

"An appeal to arms and the God of hosts is all that is left us. But we shall not fight our battle alone. There is a just God that presides over the destinies of nations. The battle sir, is not to the strong alone. Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it almighty God. I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death."

True words then...and now.
Cigarick Offline
#14 Posted:
Joined: 07-28-2002
Posts: 3,078
"Freedom of religion" means not only freedom of ANY religion, but it also means freedom FROM religion. Most of the founding fathers were deists, not Christians. Jefferson was quite clear about the separation of church and state throughout his writings.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#15 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,591
Reread Jefferson. The "seperation" of church and state only refers to the government sponsorship of an organized church(ala The Church of England), the founding fathers knew too well what it was like under tyranny.

The folly that this means there shouldn't be ANY religion is pure foolishness. Your money is stamped with "In God We Trust", am I to believe you don't use US currency? Our Congress and Senate start each session with a prayer. The Supreme Court opens each docket with a prayer. All 3 of these reference the name of God.

Its a personal decision to believe in God, and I'm not pushing it on anyone, but to decree that based on the "beliefs" of those that choose not to believe in a divine being we should rip God out of this nation is something that won't happen during our lifetime!
DrMaddVibe Offline
#16 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,591
I also submit the following:



The Founding Fathers and Deism

by David Barton



(We receive numerous requests from across the country to answer various editorials and letters-to-the-editor. The subject is usually the religious persuasions of the Founding Fathers, and the standard assertion is that they were all deists. The following is but one of many possible replies to such accusations.)

I notice that your newspaper has an ongoing debate concerning the religious nature of the Founding Fathers. A recent letter claimed that most of the Founding Fathers were deists, and pointed to Washington, Jefferson, Franklin, Paine, Hamilton, and Madison as proof. After making this charge, the writer acknowledged the "voluminous writings" of the Founders, but it appears that she has not read those writings herself. However, this is no surprise since the U. S. Department of Education claims that only 5 percent of high schools graduates know how to examine primary source documentation.

Interestingly, the claims in this recent letter to the editor are characteristic of similar claims appearing in hundreds of letters to the editor across the nation. The standard assertion is that the Founders were deists. Deists? What is a deist? In dictionaries like Websters, Funk & Wagnalls, Century, and others, the terms "deist," "agnostic," and "atheist" appear as synonyms. Therefore, the range of a deist spans from those who believe there is no God, to those who believe in a distant, impersonal creator of the universe, to those who believe there is no way to know if God exists. Do the Founders fit any of these definitions?

None of the notable Founders fit this description. Thomas Paine, in his discourse on "The Study of God," forcefully asserts that it is "the error of schools" to teach sciences without "reference to the Being who is author of them: for all the principles of science are of Divine origin." He laments that "the evil that has resulted from the error of the schools in teaching [science without God] has been that of generating in the pupils a species of atheism." Paine not only believed in God, he believed in a reality beyond the visible world.

In Benjamin Franklin's 1749 plan of education for public schools in Pennsylvania, he insisted that schools teach "the necessity of a public religion . . . and the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern." Consider also the fact that Franklin proposed a Biblical inscription for the Seal of the United States; that he chose a New Testament verse for the motto of the Philadelphia Hospital; that he was one of the chief voices behind the establishment of a paid chaplain in Congress; and that when in 1787 when Franklin helped found the college which bore his name, it was dedicated as "a nursery of religion and learning" built "on Christ, the Corner-Stone." Franklin certainly doesn't fit the definition of a deist.

Nor does George Washington. He was an open promoter of Christianity. For example, in his speech on May 12, 1779, he claimed that what children needed to learn "above all" was the "religion of Jesus Christ," and that to learn this would make them "greater and happier than they already are"; on May 2, 1778, he charged his soldiers at Valley Forge that "To the distinguished character of patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian"; and when he resigned his commission as commander-in-chief of the military on June 8, 1783, he reminded the nation that "without a humble imitation" of "the Divine Author of our blessed religion" we "can never hope to be a happy nation." Washington's own adopted daughter declared of Washington that you might as well question his patriotism as to question his Christianity.

Alexander Hamilton was certainly no deist. For example, Hamilton began work with the Rev. James Bayard to form the Christian Constitutional Society to help spread over the world the two things which Hamilton said made America great: (1) Christianity, and (2) a Constitution formed under Christianity. Only Hamilton's death two months later thwarted his plan of starting a missionary society to promote Christian government. And at the time he did face his death in his duel with Aaron Burr, Hamilton met and prayed with the Rev. Mason and Bishop Moore, wherein he reaffirmed to him his readiness to face God should he die, having declared to them "a lively faith in God's mercy through Christ, with a thankful remembrance of the death of Christ." At that time, he also partook of Holy Communion with Bishop Moore.

The reader, as do many others, claimed that Jefferson omitted all miraculous events of Jesus from his "Bible." Rarely do those who make this claim let Jefferson speak for himself. Jefferson own words explain that his intent for that book was not for it to be a "Bible," but rather for it to be a primer for the Indians on the teachings of Christ (which is why Jefferson titled that work, "The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth"). What Jefferson did was to take the "red letter" portions of the New Testament and publish these teachings in order to introduce the Indians to Christian morality. And as President of the United States, Jefferson signed a treaty with the Kaskaskia tribe wherein he provided—at the government's expense—Christian missionaries to the Indians. In fact, Jefferson himself declared, "I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus." While many might question this claim, the fact remains that Jefferson called himself a Christian, not a deist.

James Madison trained for ministry with the Rev. Dr. John Witherspoon, and Madison's writings are replete with declarations of his faith in God and in Christ. In fact, for proof of this, one only need read his letter to Attorney General Bradford wherein Madison laments that public officials are not bold enough about their Christian faith in public and that public officials should be "fervent advocates in the cause of Christ." And while Madison did allude to a "wall of separation," contemporary writers frequently refuse to allow Madison to provide his own definition of that "wall." According to Madison, the purpose of that "wall" was only to prevent Congress from passing a national law to establish a national religion.

None of the Founders mentioned fit the definition of a deist. And as is typical with those who make this claim, they name only a handful of Founders and then generalize the rest. This in itself is a mistake, for there are over two hundred Founders (fifty-five at the Constitutional Convention, ninety who framed the First Amendment and the Bill of Rights, and fifty-six who signed the Declaration) and any generalization of the Founders as deists is completely inaccurate.

The reason that such critics never mention any other Founders is evident. For example, consider what must be explained away if the following signers of the Constitution were to be mentioned: Charles Pinckney and John Langdon—founders of the American Bible Society; James McHenry—founder of the Baltimore Bible Society; Rufus King—helped found a Bible society for Anglicans; Abraham Baldwin—a chaplain in the Revolution and considered the youngest theologian in America; Roger Sherman, William Samuel Johnson, John Dickinson, and Jacob Broom—also theological writers; James Wilson and William Patterson—placed on the Supreme Court by President George Washington, they had prayer over juries in the U. S. Supreme Court room; and the list could go on. And this does not even include the huge number of thoroughly evangelical Christians who signed the Declaration or who helped frame the Bill of Rights.

Any portrayal of any handful of Founders as deists is inaccurate. (If this group had really wanted some irreligious Founders, they should have chosen Henry Dearborne, Charles Lee, or Ethan Allen). Perhaps critics should spend more time reading the writings of the Founders to discover their religious beliefs for themselves rather than making such sweeping accusations which are so easily disproven.

Thank You,
David Barton/WallBuilders
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#17 Posted:
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
cigarick

"deists" i must admit i never heard hat word before.

pretty good word. i'll bet it shows up in one of my posts. thanks
Cigarick Offline
#18 Posted:
Joined: 07-28-2002
Posts: 3,078
Treaty of Tripoli, Article 11, states:

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

The preliminary treaty began with a signing on 4 November, 1796 (the end of George Washington's last term as president). Joel Barlow, the American diplomat served as counsel to Algiers and held responsibility for the treaty negotiations. Barlow had once served under Washington as a chaplain in the revolutionary army. He became good friends with Paine, Jefferson, and read Enlightenment literature. Later he abandoned Christian orthodoxy for rationalism and became an advocate of secular government. Joel Barlow wrote the original English version of the treaty, including Amendment 11. Barlow forwarded the treaty to U.S. legislators for approval in 1797. Timothy Pickering, the secretary of state, endorsed it and John Adams concurred (now during his presidency), sending the document on to the Senate. The Senate approved the treaty on June 7, 1797, and officially ratified by the Senate with John Adams signature on 10 June, 1797. All during this multi-review process, the wording of Article 11 never raised the slightest concern.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#19 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,591
Cigarrick, that is the biggest stretch ever.

That was a very poor translation and the very article was stripped from the treaty. How come you didn't out that in your post?

Here's the rest that you forgot to put in there...

"The official 1797 Treaty with Tripoli which President John Adams signed and “ordered the premises [propositions] to be made public” included Article 11 in the English language. As for the Treaty in Arabic, not one Senator read it. The only Treaty which mattered to the Senators and the President was the one in English. America is a nation wherin citizens can accept whatever religion they choose and can practice it freely--as long as they obey the laws of society."

Lying by omission.

DrMaddVibe Offline
#20 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,591
Now what does THAT have to do with your "deists"?

If you don't believe that's fine, but don't push your "beliefs" onto others.
al'Thor Offline
#21 Posted:
Joined: 06-17-2003
Posts: 2,793
Oh, and Rick.... I wouldn't start tossing around your new favorite word "deist", until you find out what it really means. I'm afraid it's not going to give you the "ammo" that you think it will....

...funny you never came across that word, since I'm sure you did such thorough research before rejecting every form of religious belief... oops, I mean every religious belief except atheism... now THAT takes faith!
uncleb Offline
#22 Posted:
Joined: 11-13-2002
Posts: 1,326
I find it funny that DRMADDVIBE would make the statement "If you don't believe that's fine, but don't push your "beliefs" onto others." when that is exactly what he always seems to do.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#23 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,591
What do you mean unk?
uncleb Offline
#24 Posted:
Joined: 11-13-2002
Posts: 1,326
The belief of the redemption of Jesus Christ is altogether an invention of the Church of Rome, not the doctrine of the New Testament. What the writers of the New Testament attempted to prove by the story of Jesus is the resurrection of the same body from the grave, which was the belief of the Pharisees, in opposition to the Sadducees (a sect of Jews) who denied it.

Paul, who was brought up a Pharisee, labors hard at this for it was the creed of his own Pharisaical Church: I Corinthians xv is full of supposed cases and assertions about the resurrection of the same body, but there is not a word in it about redemption. This chapter makes part of the funeral service of the Episcopal Church. The dogma of the redemption is the fable of priestcraft invented since the time the New Testament was compiled, and the agreeable delusion of it suited with the depravity of immoral livers. When men are taught to ascribe all their crimes and vices to the temptations of the devil, and to believe that Jesus, by his death, rubs all off, and pays their passage to heaven gratis, they become as careless in morals as a spendthrift would be of money, were he told that his father had engaged to pay off all his scores.

It is a doctrine not only dangerous to morals in this world, but to our happiness in the next world, because it holds out such a cheap, easy, and lazy way of getting to heaven, as has a tendency to induce men to hug the delusion of it to their own injury.

But there are times when men have serious thoughts, and it is at such times, when they begin to think, that they begin to doubt the truth of the Christian religion; and well they may, for it is too fanciful and too full of conjecture, inconsistency, improbability and irrationality, to afford consolation to the thoughtful man. His reason revolts against his creed. He sees that none of its articles are proved, or can be proved.

He may believe that such a person as is called Jesus (for Christ was not his name) was born and grew to be a man, because it is no more than a natural and probable case. But who is to prove he is the son of God, that he was begotten by the Holy Ghost? Of these things there can be no proof; and that which admits not of proof, and is against the laws of probability and the order of nature, which God Himself has established, is not an object for belief. God has not given man reason to embarrass him, but to prevent his being imposed upon.

He may believe that Jesus was crucified, because many others were crucified, but who is to prove he was crucified for the sins of the world? This article has no evidence, not even in the New Testament; and if it had, where is the proof that the New Testament, in relating things neither probable nor provable, is to be believed as true?

When an article in a creed does not admit of proof nor of probability, the salvo is to call it revelation; but this is only putting one difficulty in the place of another, for it is as impossible to prove a thing to be revelation as it is to prove that Mary was gotten with child by the Holy Ghost.

Here it is that the religion of Deism is superior to the Christian Religion. It is free from all those invented and torturing articles that shock our reason or injure our humanity, and with which the Christian religion abounds. Its creed is pure, and sublimely simple. It believes in God, and there it rests.

It honors reason as the choicest gift of God to man, and the faculty by which he is enabled to contemplate the power, wisdom and goodness of the Creator displayed in the creation; and reposing itself on His protection, both here and hereafter, it avoids all presumptuous beliefs, and rejects, as the fabulous inventions of men, all books pretending to revelation.

-Thomas Paine

DrMaddVibe Offline
#25 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,591
Mind giving us the link?
uncleb Offline
#26 Posted:
Joined: 11-13-2002
Posts: 1,326
http://www.deism.com/
Robby Offline
#27 Posted:
Joined: 10-30-2002
Posts: 5,067
Like it or not, DMV has it right folks... Freedom of religion means that the Government does not officially sanction or support a "State sponsored religion"...

I believe many of the early pilgrims came here to escape the tyranny of the Church of England... And other countries who mandated worship "their way". This country was in fact founded on God. It's on our money, it's in our constitution, they begin congress with a prayer, etc. etc. etc... If the "elected officials" in Alabama want the 10 commandments in stone in their courthouse, they should be "allowed" to have it there. If the people "of Alabama (Rick? You in Alabama?)" don't like it, they'll vote them out and remove the monument. Watch TV, they're clearly in support of keeping it right where it is and the Imperial Federal Government is insisting otherwise...
arwings Offline
#28 Posted:
Joined: 02-09-2003
Posts: 950
Interesting to me that we hear this phrase "separation of church and state" bandied about a lot in religion, politics, and everyday life in general. I'm by no means a student in theocracy or constitutional law, but any study I've done does not discover the phrase appearing anywhere in the constitution.

My limited understanding is that the forefathers who framed the document intended that the religious persecution they were willing to risk all to escape from, would never be imposed on the people in this country. That is, that the State/Government would never be able to mandate to the people a worship/conformity to a religion identified by the State/Government as the "only/proper" one.

To suggest that the founding fathers were "areligious" is ridiculous. References to God and Worship are abundant. I also don't believe they ever envisioned any of the lengths we go to today to protect "separation of church and state," (as a constitutional mandate when it never appears in the constitution) i.e., elimination of prayer in schools and most public forums, with the exception, oddly enough, of governmental bodies, who generally start work sessions with a prayer.

As for the current debate with Judge Moore, my feeling is that if it has been judged to be against the law (by a court with proper jurisdiction) for the ten commandments to be displayed where it is, then it should be removed in complaince with the law.

You are entitled to disagree with the law but until such time as it is modified you are obligated to abide by it. This holds true doubly for a Judge since he has the responsibility for upholding the law.

Sorry for the rant, but to me the phrase "separation of church and state" that I hear so much in the context of a constitutional mandate is a "non-issue."
Cigarick Offline
#29 Posted:
Joined: 07-28-2002
Posts: 3,078
> As for the Treaty in Arabic, not one Senator read it. The only Treaty which mattered to the Senators and the President was the one in English.

LOL! How many Senators do you think spoke Arabic back in 1797? How many speak it now? A specious argument.

> I wouldn't start tossing around your new favorite word "deist", until you find out what it really means.
I studied world religions, philosphy, psychology, sociology and culturual anthropology all through high school, college and beyond. I know quite well what it means, thank you.

> since I'm sure you did such thorough research before rejecting every form of religious belief...

As a matter of fact, I did. I was raised a Catholic, then switched to Lutheranism in my early teens. I had a keen interest in Greek mythology, Buddhism, Hinduism, and Taoism, as well as Wicca and the naturistic beliefs of the Native American tribes.

> oops, I mean every religious belief except atheism... now THAT takes faith!

Atheism is not a religion. Sheesh.

> To suggest that the founding fathers were "areligious" is ridiculous. References to God and Worship are abundant.

Are you saying that politicians (then or now) tell the truth in public, but lie in their personal correspondence???
cwilhelmi Offline
#30 Posted:
Joined: 07-24-2001
Posts: 2,739
cigarick - I think some of those comments were pointed toward rickamave, not you. But glad to see there's another free thinker on the borad...
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#31 Posted:
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
al'Thor

i need to get this clear in my mind. you said
"atheism... now THAT takes faith"

i don't want to interpret what you said. do you mean it takes faith to be an athiest, which i am not.

i have more thoughts, but i wan't to make sure i read you correctly.
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#32 Posted:
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
al'Thor

silence can be ammo, but i still like the word.

don't you know what dorothy parker did with horticultur.
al'Thor Offline
#33 Posted:
Joined: 06-17-2003
Posts: 2,793
First of all, thank you cwilhelmi, I'm glad someone reads carefully.

Secondly, Rickamaven ("Rick"), when you said "I don't believe in a god" - that falls under atheism in my book.

Main Entry: athe·ism
Pronunciation: 'A-thE-"i-z&m
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French athéisme, from athée atheist, from Greek atheos godless, from a- + theos god
Date: 1546
1 archaic : UNGODLINESS, WICKEDNESS
2 a : a disbelief in the existence of deity b : the doctrine that there is no deity

So... which is it - are you an atheist, or do you believe in a deity (god)? (Cigarick,I certainly DO think that atheism is a religious belief - just the belief that one should not devote faith to a deity). And I do believe that it takes FAITH to either refuse to devote faith or submission to a deity or to believe that there is no god. But the faith is placed in yourself....

And finally...... who's Dorothy Parker?
al'Thor Offline
#34 Posted:
Joined: 06-17-2003
Posts: 2,793
You can lead a horticulture but you can't make her think.

Sorry, I just couldn't hold that one in.....
usahog Offline
#35 Posted:
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
Maybe if everyone here could see what the Justice Moore is really fighting for then you could understand it a bit better... and draw a better conclusion...

it's really simple so I'll post it as another thread

Hog
Robby Offline
#36 Posted:
Joined: 10-30-2002
Posts: 5,067
"I was raised a Catholic, then switched to Lutheranism in my early teens." I mean, Lex came close to defeating Superman several times, but I don't think that should rise to the level of hero worship?
Cigarick Offline
#37 Posted:
Joined: 07-28-2002
Posts: 3,078
"faith: a strong belief in a supernatural power or deity, especially for which there is no proof."

That's something of which to be proud???

I believe in science, which is based on proof. I believe we are the most intelligent animals on the planet. I believe we're born and then we die, and whatever bad happens to you in between is usually either your own doing or totally random. I believe that if you think you deserve some type of reward, you'd better go out and get it yourself and get it now, because when you're dead, you're dead.

The goofballs in Alabama are acting like it's the real 10 Commandments, when in reality it's just a graven image. Besides, they're not going to blow it up with dynamite, they're just going to move it to another room.
Cigarick Offline
#38 Posted:
Joined: 07-28-2002
Posts: 3,078
Hehehe... maybe it was that bald head that got me!
arwings Offline
#39 Posted:
Joined: 02-09-2003
Posts: 950
LMAO..........at al'Thor and robby.........both great potential color commentators........love the perspective.......!
jdrabinski Offline
#40 Posted:
Joined: 08-16-2002
Posts: 794
It is hilarious to hear such elaborate justifications for this insane judge. Rejected by every higher court, with unanimous decisions, laughed out of the Supreme Court, yet this thread is full of armchair constitutional experts correcting the courts. Very funny.

Who cares if the founding fathers belived in God? We need to go beyond their worldview...if for no other reason than to reject slavery and establish votes for everyone, things they could never have conceived.

What, short of teaching it in schools, could be more of a state establishing of religion than this monument? In a hall of justice! Insane.

He's been rebuked up and down in the courts. The truly insane thing is that he and many on this thread just don't get the message. How could it be more clear?

John
Robby Offline
#41 Posted:
Joined: 10-30-2002
Posts: 5,067
Yeah! And once we're done trashing the 1st, let's get rid of the 2nd amendment too! Woo Who!! You go Prof!!
billyjackson Offline
#42 Posted:
Joined: 08-19-2002
Posts: 2,860
Part of me feels like I should apologize for starting this...

...but only a small part!
usahog Offline
#43 Posted:
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
SO John, you are saying that the Constitution of these United States and the Ammendments there of are a farce?? is this correct in thinking (your Thinking BTW)?? BTW do you know which Ammendment it was that Abolished Slavery??

one more Question for you.. do you know who Alen Keyes is?

sometimes I wish I could underline some lines here... guess I could start yelling like JonR does to get the point across LMAO!!!

You just don't get it do you John?? we the People who do give a **** about this country and it's founders are the very same people who protect your rights to
B!tch!!!

Hog
usahog Offline
#44 Posted:
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
I for one am Glad you posted this Tread Billy!!!

Thanks for helping bring to light that our liberty's are being stripped away one State at a time!!!

Hog
jdrabinski Offline
#45 Posted:
Joined: 08-16-2002
Posts: 794
Maybe I'm just dense...can someone please spell out how removing ONE RELIGIOUS TRADITION'S monument equals a trampling on constitutional rights? How does that effect your ability to practice or express your faith?

Fact is, when it is done in a hall of justice or any state/federal building, it is a national expression. And that isn't right. No national religion. Great national policy, in my mind. Your rights to believe and express has not been touched. Not even near.

So why the hysteria? I don't understand, to be honest. I'm not being provocative or sarcastic here...I really don't understand. Go to church. The government doesn't come close to you there, has no restrictions on your beliefs, etc. Why is that not enough? Why do you have to impose your practices and beliefs on us?

Like it or not, that is exactly what this monument did. Courts all agreed, unanimously.

Open and shut. I just don't see your grievance here.

John
jdrabinski Offline
#46 Posted:
Joined: 08-16-2002
Posts: 794
PS: usahog, you don't have a corner on affection for the founding fathers. But you take them as people to be imitated, whereas I think we should adhere to and interpret the principles they articulated...none of which have to do with a specific religion.

Read John Locke (17th century). Sounds like the Constitution. And Locke based his political theory in secular terms.

And, yes, I do know who Alan Keyes is. I also think he is crazy.

John
funjohnny19 Offline
#47 Posted:
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 74
Fellas - this issue with Judge Roy Moore is all about publicity. I'll even agree with jdrabinski - this judge is insane....

Judge Moore declared Monday that he could disobey the direct order of a federal judge because "judges do not make laws, they interpret them." He followed it up by claiming that an interpretation can be wrong, so he can defy the judicial order. HUH?!?! So if Judge Moore sentences a man to prison for life, that man can question the judge's interpretation of the law and walk free? Sorry.

Moore further said that the First Amendment precept, "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion," does not apply to him because "I am not Congress." Wow.

The 14th Amendment to the CONSTITUTION, ratified in 1868, was intended to extend the Bill of Rights to state governments. Furthermore, a 1937 Supreme Court decision declared that the 1st Amendment binds state officials like Judge Moore.

This guy is sitting on a bench, making decisions that affect people lives?? Once again.....wow.

If you're Christian, a big hunk of stone standing in a square isn't what matters. It's God's message that matters. If you need the object to believe, you don't really believe.

funjohnny19
usahog Offline
#48 Posted:
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
Just as I had thought John..
"Maybe I'm just dense...can someone please spell out how removing ONE RELIGIOUS TRADITION'S monument equals a trampling on constitutional rights? How does that effect your ability to practice or express your faith?"

trying to cover up the real issue at stake here and wanting to blind others with your perspective by claiming this whole thing is about Religious Traditions or something to do with religion... when Truelly it has gone way further then a religious symbol... you know it as well as I do and I think that is why you directed the issue back to this post rather then answer my question about the Flag removal and States Rights on the other Tread... no difference.. Interferance by the Federal Governement on both Issues... Simply Violating States Rights and their Own Guidence by the Constitution of the United States Something they Swore to Uphold!!!! they are twisting and turning it to fit their Agendas Putting themselves Above the Law!!!!!

I'm glad you know Alan Keyes... do you know about him other then your personal belief he's crazy??

That he ran for Presidency as a Republican? also that he was an Ambasador for the UN. Ambassador, that he is a Black Man, that he also is very much Educated on the Constitution as in like a Scholor... nobody wanted this man in Office thats for damn sure.. accept myself had he not been beat out!!!

Now I will follow up this History Lesson before I ruffle more feathers around here

Hog
usahog Offline
#49 Posted:
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
Scholor = Scholar

Hog
usahog Offline
#50 Posted:
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
this is to tone down the hot breaze around here on this issue...

Alan Keyes
On the establishment of religion: What the Constitution really says.

When he ordered the removal of the Ten Commandments monument from the Supreme Court building in Alabama, federal judge Myron Thompson stated that the issue at stake involved the question of whether or not the state has the right to acknowledge God.

Actually, this formulation is a distraction from the real issue, which is whether or not Myron Thompson or any other federal judge has the right to interfere with state actions that may or may not constitute an establishment of religion.

Someone who simply reads the text of the Constitution of the United States would be thoroughly surprised to learn that a federal judge claimed the right to act in this manner. The First Amendment to the Constitution plainly states: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion ..." Since there can be no federal law on the subject, there appears to be no lawful basis for any element of the federal government - including the courts - to act in this area.

Moreover, the 10th Amendment to the Constitution plainly states that "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people." This means that the power to make laws respecting an establishment of religion, having been explicitly withheld from the United States, is reserved to the states or to the people.

Taken together, therefore, the First and 10th Amendments reserve the power to address issues of religious establishment to the different states and their people.

An erroneous premise

Now, Judge Thompson - like many federal judges and justices before him - claims the unlimited prerogative of dictating to the states what they may or may not do with respect to matters of religious expression. Applying this supposed prerogative, he has declared the erection of the Ten Commandments monument by the chief justice of the Supreme Court of the state of Alabama to be an unlawful establishment of religion.

This he has done despite the clear impossibility of any basis for his action in federal law or statute. He relies on the erroneous doctrine, repeatedly affirmed by the Supreme Court of the United States, that the First Amendment forbids an establishment of religion, and that the 14th Amendment applies this prohibition to the states. Based on this assertion, he and other federal judges and justices now claim an unlimited right to dictate to the states in these matters.

We have already seen that the actual language of the Constitution does not forbid an establishment of religion. Rather, it forbids Congress to legislate on the subject at all, reserving it entirely to the states. No language in the 14th Amendment deals with this power of government.

Portions of that amendment do indeed restrict the legislative powers of the states, but they refer only to actions that affect the privileges, immunities, legal rights and equal legal status of individual citizens and persons. The first clause of the First Amendment in no way deals with persons, however, but rather - in concert with the 10th Amendment - secures the right of the states and the people to be free from the dictates of federal law respecting an establishment of religion.

Distinguishing rights of the people from individual rights

A right of the people as a whole - not an individual right - is the protected object of the first clause of the First Amendment to the Constitution. Even if one accepts the doctrine that the Bill of Rights must be taken as the basis for understanding the privileges and immunities of citizenship, the first clause of the First Amendment simply secures this right of the people, giving clear constitutional effect to their immunity from federal dictation in matters of religion.

The practical foundation of all the rights and privileges of the individual citizen is the rights that inhere in the citizen body as a whole, the rights of the people and of the state governments. The latter effectively embody their ability to resist abuses of national power. Such rights include the right to elect representatives, and to be governed by laws made and enforced through them. (The right to vote is an individual right. The right to elect is a right of the people as a whole.) Without these corporate and collective rights, there would be no mechanisms for the concerted action of the people, no institutions for their united defense and, therefore, no materially effective security for their individual persons, property and rights against the organized forces of an abusive national power.

The establishment clause of the First Amendment secures a right of the people. Until now, though, many have treated the first two clauses of the amendment as if they are one ("Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof ..."). This practice ignores both the linguistic and the logical contrast between the two clauses. Where the first clause deals with a right of the people (that is, a power of government reserved to the states and to the people), the second clause deals with an action or set of actions (the free exercise of religion) that cannot be free unless they originate in individual choice. The first clause forbids Congress to address a subject at all. The second allows for federal action, but restricts the character of such action.

By virtue of the first clause, the states and the people as such are protected from federal domination; by the second, individuals are protected from coercion in their religious conduct. The first clause allows the states and the people as such to follow their will in matters of religion; the second guarantees the same liberty to individuals and the corporate persons they voluntarily compose. The first has as its object matters that are decided by the will of the people (i.e., by the will of the constitutionally determined majority in the different states). The second involves matters decided by the will of each individual.

Parallel rights and actions

The failure to observe this distinction leads to the absurd presumption that all government action in matters of religion is somehow inherently a contravention of individual freedom. This can be no more or less true in matters of religion than it is in any other area in which both individuals and governments are capable of action and decision.

The government's power to arm soldiers for the community's defense does not inherently contravene the individual's right to arm himself against personal attack. The government's power to establish institutions of higher learning does not inherently contradict the individual's right to educate his young or join with others to start a school. The government's power to engage in economic enterprises (such as the postal service or electric power generation) does not inherently contradict the individual's right to private enterprise. It is possible for government coercively to inhibit or repress any of these individual activities, but it is obvious that government action does not in and of itself constitute such coercion.

As the U.S. Constitution is written, matters of religion fall into this category of parallel individual and governmental possibilities. Federal and state governments, in matters of religion, are forbidden to coerce or prohibit individual choice and action. Within the states, the people are free to decide by constitutional majority the nature and extent of the state's expression of religious belief.

This leaves individuals free to make their own choices with respect to religion, but it also secures the right of the people of the states to live under a government that reflects their religious inclination. As in all matters subject to the decision of the people, the choice of the people is not the choice of all, but of the majority, as constitutionally determined, in conformity with the principles of republican government (which the U.S. Constitution requires the people of each state to respect).

Subverting the wisdom of the Founders

The Constitution reflects the view that the choice with respect to governmental expressions of religious belief must respect the will of the majority. Unless, in matters that should be determined by the people, the will of the majority be consulted, there is no consent and therefore no legitimacy, in government.

Though it may be argued that matters of religion ought to be left entirely to individuals for decision, this has the effect of establishing in the public realm a regime of indifference to religion. Thus, a choice of establishment is inevitable, and the only question is whether the choice will be made by the will of the people or not. The U.S. Constitution, being wholly republican, decides this question in favor of the people, but in light of the pluralism of religious opinions among the people, forbids any attempt to discern the will of the people in the nation as a whole.

By leaving the decision to the people in their states, and by permitting a complete freedom of movement and migration among the states, the U.S. Constitution offers scope for the geographic expression of this pluralism while assuring that the absence of a formal and legal expression of religious reverence on a national scale does not inadvertently result in the establishment of a national regime of indifference to religion.

When, by their careless and contradictory abuse of the 14th Amendment, the federal judges and justices arrogate to themselves the power which, by the First and 10th Amendments, the Constitution reserves to the states, they deprive the nation of this prudent and logically balanced approach to the issue of religious establishment.

Whether through carelessness or an artful effort to deceive, they ignore the distinction between the individual right to free exercise of religion and the right of the people to decide their government's religious stance. They have, in consequence, usurped this right of the people, substituting for the republican approach adopted by the Constitution an oligarchic approach that reserves to a handful of un-elected individuals the power to impose on the entire nation a uniform stance on religion at every level of government.

The right to decide the issue of establishment is a fundamental right of the people. It is also among the most likely to cause bitter and passionate dissension when the religious conscience of the people is violated or suppressed. That may explain why it is the very first right secured from federal violation in the Bill of Rights.

When they take this right from the people, the federal judges and justices depart from the republican form of government. They impose, in religious matters, an oligarchic regime upon the states. They therefore violate, in letter and spirit, Article IV, Section 4 of the U.S. Constitution. This section declares that "The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a republican form of government ..."

Unlawful usurpation and lawful resistance

In addition to these abuses and violations of the U.S. Constitution, the purblind insistence by these judges and justices on treating religious freedom as a strictly individual right has produced the very consequence that the Constitution's more prudent approach seeks to avoid. They have insisted that government adopt a stance of strict agnosticism, which in effect drives from the public realm all things that smack of religious belief.

This establishes, in the literal sense, a uniform regime of atheism in government affairs. (In the literal sense, atheism simply means the absence of God, and this, in the public realm, is what the federal judges and justices insist upon.) Since, however unjustifiably, they claim for their opinions the force of law, it necessarily follows that they mean to impose this regime by force - that is, by coercion. Thus, in the guise of a judicial effort to protect religious freedom, they destroy it - not for this or that individual, but for the people as a whole.

Naturally, this destruction has aroused anxiety and opposition among the people, who feel and fear the effects of this wholesale suppression of public religious conscience and belief. With each new manifestation of the nature and intent of the federal judiciary's usurpation of their right, the people grow more resistant. Their acts of resistance against this judicial despotism reach higher and more organized levels until they are undertaken in and through the institutions of the state governments.

The state governments are the natural focus and vehicle through which the people organize and declare their opposition to unconstitutional assertions of federal power. Because the federal judiciary cloaks its usurpation in the usual forms and procedures of law, and because Americans are accustomed to taking those forms as evidence of substantive conformity with the law, these manifestations of resistance may be denounced as unlawful.

But in this case, the lack of lawful grounds for the federal judiciary's acts must, in the end, repel these denunciations. The federal judges and justices cannot be acting lawfully when their only claim of lawfulness rests upon the Constitution - since the Constitution's sole pronouncement on the matter of an establishment of religion precludes the possibility of any federal law as a basis for their jurisdiction.

Some may insist that regardless of anyone's opinion of the lawfulness of a court's action, all are duty-bound, in the interest of order and law enforcement, to obey every court order. This is certainly true of ordinary citizens in most circumstances. Even where ordinary citizens are concerned, however, it is not hard to imagine situations in which they would be morally obliged to refuse a plainly unlawful court order. If, for instance, a judge issues an order requiring that at random an innocent person be shot when entering the courtroom, no person, including any officers of the court, is required to obey this order. In fact, like military personnel, they are duty-bound to refuse.

What is imaginable for ordinary citizens is even more conceivable when dealing with high government officials who are sworn to uphold the constitutions and laws that establish self-government in the states, and that protect the liberties of individuals and of the people. If a federal judge orders the governor of a state to take actions that he conscientiously believes violate the rights of an individual or group of individuals, no one would deny that he is duty-bound to refuse such an order.

If, for example, a Nazi regime somehow came to power at the federal level, and by legislation or executive order initiated an effort to confine Jewish or black Americans to concentration camps, all state officials acting under state constitutions that protected individual rights would be oath-bound to refuse unlawful federal court orders that declared people to be of Jewish or black heritage and thereupon ordered their confinement.

What we clearly acknowledge to be possible and even morally obligatory in case of the violation of individual rights must be even more compelling when the case involves the violation of the rights of the whole people. Thus, when a federal judge issues an unlawful order that a state official conscientiously believes violates a fundamental and constitutionally protected right of the people of his state, that official must refuse the order that assaults their right just as he would refuse an order that violated the rights of individuals. It is of no consequence whether the unlawful order comes from one judge or many, from a lower court or the Supreme Court - it must be refused.

Note that the wording here implies an obligation, not a choice. This is important - since it makes clear that the court's unlawful order places the state official in a situation where his substantive duty to the law conflicts with his formal obligation to obey a court order. A regime in which slavish observance of the empty forms of law substitutes for substantive respect for the real terms and requirements of the law clearly represents the demise of law as such.

Judge Moore and the people of Alabama

In the state of Alabama, Judge Roy Moore has refused the unlawful order of Judge Myron Thompson, since it represents a destructive violation of the right of the people of Alabama to decide how their government will or will not express their religious beliefs. This right of the people is the first one secured in the U.S. Constitution's Bill of Rights, and it cannot be compromised without surrendering the moral foundations of republican liberty. Judge Thompson's assault upon this right, and that of the entire federal judiciary for the last several decades, is not, therefore, a trivial threat to the liberty of the people. Judge Moore cannot obey the court's order without surrendering that liberty.

Now, the 14th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, as it applies the Bill of Rights to the states, lays an obligation upon state legislatures, officers and officials to refrain from actions that deprive the people of their rights. With respect to the First Amendment, therefore, it becomes their positive obligation to resist federal encroachments that take away the right of the people to decide how their state governments deal with matters of religion. This obviously has a direct bearing on the case of Chief Justice Roy Moore in his confrontation with the abusive order of Judge Myron Thompson.

His refusal of the order is not only consistent with his duty to the Alabama Constitution, it is his duty under the Constitution of the United States. Alabama Attorney General Bill Pryor, the eight associate justices of the Alabama Supreme Court, and indeed any other state officials in Alabama who submit to the judge's order are, by contrast, in violation of the federal Constitution, as well as their duty to the constitution and people of Alabama.

As a class, therefore, the citizens of Alabama are justified in bringing suit against them for their dereliction, and in seeking reparation for the damage that has been done to their right under the U.S. Constitution. Unfortunately, since the federal judiciary is the perpetrator of the assault against this right, how can the people of Alabama hope for a fair and unbiased judgment from any of the federal courts, including the Supreme Court?

Judicial self-interest

Lawyers will doubtless object on the grounds that the Supreme Court has repeatedly affirmed the jurisdiction of the federal courts in this regard. Their partisan reverence for the Supreme Court's opinions on this matter is wholly understandable, since a seat upon the court, or upon the bench of one of the inferior federal courts, usually represents the highest point toward which their ambition aspires. It is quite natural that they should support claims to a power that they may hope someday to wield.

However, lawyers' insistence that others show the same reverence is repugnant to reason and common sense. In the matter of their constitutional jurisdiction, as against the state courts or the other branches of the federal government, the federal courts - including the Supreme Court - have a strong and direct interest. If judgment in these matters is left to them absolutely, it must always lead to a situation in which the judges and justices sit in judgment of their own cause.

Our common sense joins the admonitions of the Founders of our republic in warning us not to rely on such intrinsically biased judgments. The prospect of expanding their power may distract the federal judges from the facts and merits of the case. This is, and ever has been, a weakness of our humanity.

The people and their representatives

This is why the U.S. Constitution, after enumerating certain cases over which the federal judiciary would have original jurisdiction, gave it appellate jurisdiction "with such Exceptions, and under such Regulations as the Congress shall make." Therefore, the federal courts are not the ultimate judges of the boundaries of their own power. Final responsibility in this respect rests with the Congress.

Once we take note of this fact, it also becomes clear that thinking about matters of jurisdiction at the constitutional level cannot be considered the exclusive province of lawyers and judges. Though Congress has in some historical periods been composed of a plurality, or even a majority of lawyers, lawyers could never have an exclusionary claim to membership in its ranks. The people can send to Congress whom they choose, including people from walks of life in no way related to the legal profession. It follows, therefore, that the Constitution assumes that people who are not lawyers will have to reason and make judgments about the proper scope and limits to be imposed upon the appellate jurisdiction of the federal courts.

The fact that the Supreme Court affirms the federal judiciary's claim to jurisdiction over the state governments in matters pertaining to an establishment of religion does not, therefore, settle the issue. The Congress must review and oversee such a claim. Since the people choose the members of Congress, people at large, as they consider their election, are required to consider this claim as well.

Our analysis thus far demonstrates that the Supreme Court's affirmation of this claim of jurisdiction is contrary to the plain text of the Constitution: It usurps the right of the people in their respective states to decide their government's stance on religion; it violates Article IV, Section 4 of the Constitution by subverting the republican form of government with respect to this right; and by aiming coercively to establish an agnostic regime of atheism at all levels of government, it destroys religious freedom for the people as a whole and dangerously subverts the Constitution's prudent handling of matters pertaining to religion.

The right and duty of Congress

The text of the Constitution easily allows us to see and understand the federal judiciary's abuse of power and its usurpation of the right of the people in religious matters. It also provides a remedy for this abuse. The Congress must pass legislation that, in order to assure proper respect for the first clause of the First Amendment, excepts from the appellate jurisdiction of the federal courts those matters which, by the conjoint effect of the First and 10th Amendments, the Constitution reserves to the states respectively and to the people. (This language avoids a semantic difficulty, since congressional legislation that explicitly mentioned matters pertaining to an establishment of religion would serve the intention but violate the terms of the first clause of the First Amendment.)

This legislation would restore observance of the Constitution by preventing the federal courts from addressing any issues related to religious establishment (as the First Amendment requires), while leaving them free to deal with cases involving the free exercise of religion by individuals, since these do not fall under constitutional ban on federal legislation. In this regard, the only state actions that come under federal jurisdiction are those involving coercive interference with individual choice in matters of religion. State action that involves no such individual coercion (such as the placement of a Ten Commandments monument in the rotunda of a state Supreme Court building) is outside the purview of the federal courts.

The consequences of congressional failure to act urgently upon this matter are almost too grave for contemplation. State officials will be continually beset by federal court judgments that demand action the U.S. Constitution forbids. Errors of judgment by federal officials seeking to enforce such orders might lead to confrontations between federal officers determined to do what federal judges order and state officers determined to do what the U.S. Constitution requires.

On one side and the other, claims of lawful justification would contribute to intransigence. Problems like this, left for very long without solution, raise the sombre spectre of national dissolution. This, the Congress has the constitutional means and duty to avoid. They should move to do so without delay.

Hope you Enjoyed your Class today!!!
you can rebuke this if you feel but right there in black and white are the FACTS to this Issue!!!


Hog
Users browsing this topic
Guest