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Last post 20 years ago by limoric. 27 replies replies.
Dirty Fossil Fuels or Clean Energy
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limoric Offline
#1 Posted: Sat, Sep 6 2003, 7:48 PM EST
Joined: 03-08-2001
Posts: 623

Continuation of GASOLINE PRICES.

Read the last 10 or so posts and then post your opinion. There is a web site for referrence to the subject.

I realize there are those who work in the oil patch and/or oil Co's. I have many friends who do. However the fact remains. Fossil fuels are destroying the planet. Even the oil industry is investing in Hydrogen Energy, the bigest is Shell. Oh and I do realize there are many different uses for oil, some that do not produce emissions.

Oh, I'm not a tree hugger.
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#2 Posted: Sun, Sep 7 2003, 3:43 AM EST
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
why did you start another post. i have heard and seen thread jacking, but this is the worst.

go to bed right after diner. no desert and no tv. and don't ask for a glass of water.
limoric Offline
#3 Posted: Sun, Sep 7 2003, 6:31 AM EST
Joined: 03-08-2001
Posts: 623
Hey Rick, your post was about gas prices. This is a new topic. I wanted to bring some more people into the discusion. That's why I put continueation and started a new thread.

To make Rick feel better, please reply to the first post and give him the full credit for this topic. Rick please don't go over the deep end. There is a crisis hotline in your area. Sorry Rick just had to follow in the Rick Maven tradition. Of course I've rarely seen you over react

sketcha Offline
#4 Posted: Sun, Sep 7 2003, 7:45 AM EST
Joined: 03-26-2003
Posts: 3,238
Actually, Lim,

Down here in California our vehicles are required to pass a smog test bi-anually. The figures of my last test astonished me. My '95 Toyota Avalon is an environmental wonder. It emits only Nitrogen and Oxygen. Good for both trees and animals. Now I will admit that it uses more air (N and O2) for combustion than it emits, but I think we're splitting a few hairs here. Thanks to our efforts, L.A.'s smog has seen a steady decline for many decades despite a continually growing population.

But,

I am all for alternative energy both for conservation and liberatarian purposes. In fact, my father just sold a place in Nevada that was essentially energy self-sufficient. He's quite a resource for wind, solar etc.

I hope to do what I can with my new building. With the Govt. kickbacks, I figure it will pay for itself in about 5 years. After that it's all gravy, though only 5 years of gravy as the solar cells have a 10 yr. lifespan. gravy is still gravy though and I'll have more govt. independence and be doing my part for the environment.

We should definitely be investing in renewable resource technology, but don't be too quick to judge good ol' Texas Tea.

BTW, are you driving a hybrid or some sort of electric car?
limoric Offline
#5 Posted: Sun, Sep 7 2003, 9:06 AM EST
Joined: 03-08-2001
Posts: 623
Sketcha,

Right on, I think we're totally on the same page. I so cannot wait untill I have total independence from the utilities. There's just as much Alberta tea as there is in texas and if it weren't for that industry Alberta wouldn't have the best economy in North America (according to UN statistics). However there are more environmental friendly ways of extracting( especially in the oil sands where it take something like 10 gallons of water to produce 1 gallon of oil), but that would reduce profits.

I don't have a Hybrid, but my wife and I share a car. We are in need of a second vehicle as kids are getting older. 2nd car will be Hydrogen. The Hybrid engine and generator just take up too much room. When the 100% Hydrogen cars come out, they will be more practicle. I will eventually replace the first. Also Alberta Especially Edmonton is a lot like Texas, Proud of their oil and not in a hurry to change. BC on the other hand is Like mini california.

Oil reserves:

US 22 Billion Barrels
Can 5.6 Billion Mostly comming out of Alberta. Also they have a huge oil sands project.

Intersting tidbit. BMW uses Hydrogen to power all non-engine appliances, like air cond, windows, stereo, etc. This allows the feul to be used only for performance. This is only on a few models.
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#6 Posted: Sun, Sep 7 2003, 3:07 PM EST
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
limoric

i called the crisis and the suicide hot lines and, my old buddy "tony two times" (he always shoots twice) and left messages on their machines.

both the crisis and the suicide centers have directv so they were watching football.

tony two times answeing machine plays the theme from "6 foot under" but in a rhumba beat.

your feeble explaination for your plagiarism is laughable. i laugh at it. HA HA.

you are grounded for a week and you can't use the car to drive around with milly anymore. too many shoe marks on the header over the back seat.
sketcha Offline
#7 Posted: Sun, Sep 7 2003, 3:36 PM EST
Joined: 03-26-2003
Posts: 3,238
Lim,

I'll have to wait for a used H vehicle as my finances don't support new cars. As soon as it's practical, my wife and I will both own one.
limoric Offline
#8 Posted: Sun, Sep 7 2003, 3:44 PM EST
Joined: 03-08-2001
Posts: 623
Rick my wife reads this forum, leave Milly out of this. Hehehe.
limoric Offline
#9 Posted: Sun, Sep 7 2003, 3:53 PM EST
Joined: 03-08-2001
Posts: 623
Sketcha,

As soon as they come out, Cali's will buy them in droves, especially the hippies. Because there isn't a lot of income to be made in hugging trees, many will be repo'd. And because there will be more cars than the Infrastructure can support at first, there will be bargins to be had at auctions. Most will still have manufacturers warrenties. Keep a look out for the auctions in Cali forn i a. Actually keep me apprised of them aswell.
sketcha Offline
#10 Posted: Sun, Sep 7 2003, 9:30 PM EST
Joined: 03-26-2003
Posts: 3,238
LMAO w/Lim!

Damn dirty hippies! Can't wait to capitalize. Freekin' long hairs! = )
Tobasco Offline
#11 Posted: Mon, Sep 8 2003, 11:47 AM EST
Joined: 02-08-2003
Posts: 2,809


Unless the energy to charge the batteries of a hybred comes from solar, wind or nuclear, a regular modern gas motor runs cleaner in the end...

A power plant that is fossil fueled, puts out more emissions than automotive engines...
limoric Offline
#12 Posted: Mon, Sep 8 2003, 12:37 PM EST
Joined: 03-08-2001
Posts: 623
We're talking about Hydrogen not Hybrid. Zero emissions
Tobasco Offline
#13 Posted: Mon, Sep 8 2003, 3:31 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2003
Posts: 2,809
limoric, have you lived in CA?

You said,"As soon as they come out, Cali's will buy them in droves, especially the hippies."

Dont count on that. I've lived in CA ALL my life. In this state your car is a statis symbol. SUV's & Sports cars rule in this state.

Also, this isnt the 60's. There arent as many hippies as you think. The hippies of old, bought used cars anyway, not new ones. So they would probably be the last to get em...
sketcha Offline
#14 Posted: Mon, Sep 8 2003, 9:23 PM EST
Joined: 03-26-2003
Posts: 3,238
Tobasco's right. Although Santa Cruz tends to throw the curve off a little. This place is crawlin' with 'em. I think Angela Davis may still be teaching at UCSC.
limoric Offline
#15 Posted: Tue, Sep 9 2003, 8:26 AM EST
Joined: 03-08-2001
Posts: 623
Of course I'm not talking about all of Cali, but there's probably more hippies in the state than in Georgia. Come to think of it I seem to meet a lot of California hippies up here. They must of come up here for the free health care. Tell them to go hug their own tree's. Just Kidding, every so often we cut a tree down with them still attached and because most of our timber is exported you get them back anyway, along with a few of our hippies. Hehehe.

Actually I'm all for a good cause. But it's funny to watch hippies from anywhere get their point across with 50 studs in their faces and long matted hair. I'm reminded of the movie Armagedon, where Bruce willis is driving golf balls from his oil Rig to an old leaky desil fuled boat full of Hippies. He,he,he.

But the point remains, it's up to the average joe to make a few smater environmental choices. As much as I would love one of the new Volvo SUV's. I will wait untill there is a comparible Hydrogen powered version.

50% of man made green house gases come from cars. There is already a viable alternative and buy 2008 every person in north america will have a choice when buying a car. Hydrogen or gas. Their may be an affordability issue, but one can always go used ofter a few years.

I will be renovating my 5th house in 4 years buy early 2005. I'm going on #3 this fall. When #5 comes along I will be looking into Solar power and using a Hydrogen Furnace I just found out is available. I will be off the grid and producing enough power to supply my neighbors. Buy the way there are already a few people off the grid in my city, just found that out through a radio program I was listening to the other day.
sketcha Offline
#16 Posted: Tue, Sep 9 2003, 7:57 PM EST
Joined: 03-26-2003
Posts: 3,238
That's right, Lim, let the the free market decide. My wife's father is one of the biggest strawberry farmers in the world. He does a few acres of organic and the rest, non. If everyone wanted organic and was willing to pay for them, farmers would grow them.

I do have a question, though. Is "off the grid" a good idea? It seems that staying on and selling your power back to the people is more environmentally efficient. Maybe that's what you meant. I know that's what folks do down here.
Tobasco Offline
#17 Posted: Tue, Sep 9 2003, 8:45 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2003
Posts: 2,809

I believe that limoric is still on the grid, if its like systems like in CA. I dont really think you can deliver energy directly to your neighbors, but its shared by others in your area. Which does include your neighbors. I'm just guessing...
limoric Offline
#18 Posted: Tue, Sep 9 2003, 8:57 PM EST
Joined: 03-08-2001
Posts: 623
Sketcha,

You guessed it. Only we're 10 years behind California in solar power and the power Co.'s don't make it very easy yet to sell the power to them. But it is possible and as the trend grows, the power Co.'s will have a new cheap source in which to access more power.

I heard on the news today that some scientist has developed a material for the body of cars made from hemp that is as strong as steel and of course rust and dent resistant. It is said that within a few years, up to 30% of a car could be made of this material.

So I guess the Hippies of the past will be driving it instead of smoking it.
limoric Offline
#19 Posted: Tue, Sep 9 2003, 9:17 PM EST
Joined: 03-08-2001
Posts: 623
Tobasco,

Know where a lot of California's power comes from? yep, good old Alberta. We're on the same grid. When we have power outages, so do parts of LA. I know we supply power to other parts but, I only know of LA because it always makes the news out here. Hmmm... what a coincedent. You take Wayne Gretsky from us, we knock out your power. Any other Hockey players your interested in. Hehehe.
Tobasco Offline
#20 Posted: Tue, Sep 9 2003, 9:43 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2003
Posts: 2,809


Heck limoric, maybe someday you will have put energy into the grid that I will use! Ya never know...
sketcha Offline
#21 Posted: Wed, Sep 10 2003, 7:01 AM EST
Joined: 03-26-2003
Posts: 3,238
I've seen U.S. propoganda films I think from the 30s showing hemp-rope for Naval ships. It's focus was to thank farmers for growing it and encouraging more diligence to "Keep growing that hemp!"

Then in the next few years, DuPont invented nylon. A year later...

prohibition.

Funny how our govt. works sometimes.
limoric Offline
#22 Posted: Wed, Sep 10 2003, 8:46 AM EST
Joined: 03-08-2001
Posts: 623
Sketcha,

The whole drug issue in the US is really foriegn to me. I don't use, yet I bet 30% of Canadians do. Don't know the US stats. Our government is finally going the way of Amsterdam. From the revenue the government would earn on something that will never go away, we will be able to pay our national debt in 10 years. Their are already Government grow opperations for medical purposes. I'd rather my kids be I.D'd at the drug store like buying a pack of smokes, than buy something that may be fake or harmful off the street.

Of course the Hemp that would be used for fabricating has no medicinal effects, and was a huge crop once apon a time, I think it will flurish again. Keeping on the topic, they make a lubricant that is used in some deisel engines, and with a bit more science it will be able to replace engine oil.

We have many stores that sell hemp products, from clothes to supplements.
sketcha Offline
#23 Posted: Wed, Sep 10 2003, 8:56 AM EST
Joined: 03-26-2003
Posts: 3,238
I'm sure Santa Cruz is the Mecca for hemp products.

My mother grew up in Nebraska. Hemp grew all over. On the sides of the roads etc. My aunt picked some and tried to dry it in the oven and stunk the house up. My Grandfather came home to quite a surprise. My mother and her did try it with only a headache for an effect.

rayder1 Offline
#24 Posted: Wed, Sep 10 2003, 9:39 PM EST
Joined: 06-02-2002
Posts: 2,226
As soon as they can make a hybrid or clean energy motor that can equal 200-300+ HP...produce 300+ foot pounds torque. Tow my 3 horse trailer up the Sierra Nevada without slipping below 55, and is priced in a vehicle for less than $40,000 then I will be in line to buy it.

Unfortunately to make a vehicle of that sort anytime in the near future isn't likely. If it is made, it will be a rich man's clean air SUV.
sketcha Offline
#25 Posted: Thu, Sep 11 2003, 5:53 AM EST
Joined: 03-26-2003
Posts: 3,238
rayder,

Hear, hear!
limoric Offline
#26 Posted: Thu, Sep 11 2003, 6:54 AM EST
Joined: 03-08-2001
Posts: 623
Ryder,

Their simply converting from gasoline to Hydrogen. Diferent fuel source. I bet it's not long before it's available in a high performance vehicle. How popular are Hydrogen powered civics going to be. I saw an auto show on TV where they had a Cadilac concept car built that was a hybrid. They bosted some pretty good performance #'s. Only it was totally impracticle, because the Hybrid engine took up the whole back seat. That's where I think Hydrogen is the sollution. They already have sedans converted and running. Maybe the car manufacturers are waiting till 2008 with a small appearence in 2004, so they can give the public what they really want. Well I hope so!!!
rayder1 Offline
#27 Posted: Thu, Sep 11 2003, 6:35 PM EST
Joined: 06-02-2002
Posts: 2,226
Trailer life had an article on a clean air generator. I cannot find the mag right now, but the price tag on a clean air 3000 watt generator (hydrogen fuel cell) was estimated at $50,000. About the size of a standard RV generator. That's only a handful of the power needed to run a car.
limoric Offline
#28 Posted: Thu, Sep 11 2003, 8:58 PM EST
Joined: 03-08-2001
Posts: 623
October 30, 2002
Stuart Energy unveiled its latest "intelligent" hydrogen fueling station at AC Transit in Richmond, California on October 30, 2002. The unveiling ceremony was attended by approximately 200 people from the surrounding community, as well as local officials and politicians, and children from two high schools. Considered a smashing success, the unveiling also featured a demonstration of quick and easy fueling of four fuel cell cars manufactured by DaimlerChrylser, Ford, Hyundai, and Toyota, before an excited crowd. Richmond Mayor Irma Anderson, who spoke of the benefits of clean, green hydrogen fuel to her community's health and well-being, had the honour of fueling the first car. During the fueling the crowd swarmed Mayor Anderson to watch.


May 2003
The Stuart Energy Mobile Hydrogen Energy Station (Mobile HES-f) demonstrates how it can conveniently supply hydrogen fuel with a Ford Focus fuel cell vehicle in California. During the middle of May 2003, the California Fuel Cell Partnership organized a fuel cell vehicle Road Rally through the heart of California. Joining the caravan of fuel cell cars driving from Sacramento to Los Angeles, the Stuart Energy Mobile HES demonstrated its ability to provide hydrogen fuel where ever a vehicle needs it. The focus of the Road Rally was to provide the public with first-hand education and awareness of hydrogen powered vehicles as well as hydrogen infrastructure through the Mobile HES.


April 22, 2003 - Earth Day
Toyota Motor Sales U.S.A. officially opened their Stuart Energy Hydrogen Energy Station (HES) on a sunny day in Torrance California. The station official opening was timed to co-ordinate with the opening of Toyota's "Green" building and acceptance of the US Green Building Council's Gold award. Bill Reinert of Toyota described the workings of the station to on-lookers and pointed out that the station is equipped to use solar power to generate zero-emission hydrogen fuel. After the introductory remarks, a Toyota Fuel Cell Hydrogen Vehicle (FCHV) drove up to the station and City of Torrance Mayor Dan Walker fueled the vehicle. Students from a local high school were given rides in the FCHV. The station was installed by Stuart Energy in December 2002 and provides hydrogen fuel for Toyota's fuel cell vehicle fleet and also supports Toyota's fuel-cell community program.


When will fuel cell vehicles be on the road?
Today, there are prototype fuel cell cars and buses on the road in California and Germany. Though plans could change, bus manufacturers plan to place about 30 fuel cell buses on the road in 2002. Auto manufacturers have announced plans for commercialization of fuel cell cars by 2004.




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