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I feel that the Bush administration has done a fine job in the middle east, except for 1 thing I think is wrong.
This administration keeps tellin Israeli leaders not to retaliate against the Palestinian terrorism. How many of these attacks are acceptable? None in my opinion. Arrafat must be removed from his leadership position.

The US wouldnt put up with these attacks, why should Israel? Just my opinion.
Mag

I Vote; attack. Many say that Israel was a terrorism sponser going back to (what 48?) when they blew up the bus out side King David something. Honestly I just do not remember the exact name but the target was a military target, with military personel inside. Blowing up a bus, injuring some innocent bystanders is a terrorist act, in its way. The one thing that people keep forgetting in this country and around the world is intent. What was Israel's intent? To distroy a military target. I ask you; what is the palesinian's intent when he explodes inside a bus full of school children? Or walks into a crowded pizza parlor and does the same thing? These victims were innocent. They intended to kill innicent people. That makes them monsters. The fued between Israel and Palestine will most likely never end uless one side is no longer. There is a clear good/evil. If it comes down to one, God will it be Israel. Again, I vote attack. As Nick Dipalo said in Tough crowd the other night, "Then roadmap for peace in the middle east begins at Arifat's headstone. You want peace? There will be a little red x on his headstone that says start here!!" He is a cancer and contributes nothing to this world, kill him and hope it influences 14 year old Arab's to read a book instead of stapping on a suicide belt in he name of Alah. I say, Alah, God, Buddah, Mohammad, whoever, whatever, is out there, they do not want kids killing themselves for any reason. But it won't stop until somthing is done to stop it. We as a nation, the most powerful in the world, parent to Israel, can actually do nothing and still it will stop. But that is what we need to do, nothing. When Israel defends herself by killing members of Hamas, do nothing. Don't condem, instead remember how we felt that Sept. Morning when war was brought to us. Israel wants nothing more than to live in peace. Palistine wants nothing more than to kill all Israelis, oh and Americans too while we are at it. I say bring it to them. Don't give them the chance. Let Israel do what needs to be done and this world will be a better place. Too long, sorry, but this is an issue that is very important to me. We try to say that we as Americans and America are the good guys. Why do we complain when we find no WMD in Iraq? How can anyone say that the war was not jusified? Millions of people are saved now. Sadam was a brutal tyrant that killed innocent people. His sons Raped Women on the street and executed them "because they are now un-pure, and no man will have them." If that is not justification enough for you than I say damn you. You and your American guilt, because that can be he only reason you do ot see reason. Americans are still guilty about our own past and too many of us traspose those feeling onto goups like the palestinians, the under-dogs, jus trying to survive, and win thier freedom. Terrorism is NEVER justified. Not for any reason. Palestine will not stop killing until they are made to stop, because they have no other reason for living. Its tragic but true. Like any virus, they need to be wiped out. No matter what the Leftist media trys to scew it, Islam is a violent religion. I preaches war and he distruction of the infidels. Infidel= Israel and America. I say there is no room for war mongering in this world, stop them before they do something to stop us. Stop us from living our lives. MK

In this sort of conflict, somebody needs to stop the violence. Israel is the ruling force, so has the responsibility to initiate cessation of conflict. Hard to do? Yes. Necessary? Yes. Plus, let us not forget that Israel has killed MANY more in this conflict. We just hear more about Israeli deaths.

Arafat is not the leader of the P.A., so he has in fact withdrawn from power. Does he wield power from behind the scenes? Of course. All former leaders do, from Arafat to Bush Sr.

This I found puzzling, and I'm curious about thoughts on it:

"How can Palestinians expect to win the sympathy and support of any outside countries when, instead of using campaigns of civil disobedience, peaceful protest, and other non-violent methods (methods proven by such people as Gandhi in India and Martin Luther King here, among others, to be effective in gaining liberty and recognition for one's cause), they decide to bomb buses, pizzerias, malls, streets, and other civilian targets. It's cowardly and wrong...and where does it get the Palestinian cause? Nowhere except on the bad end of an Israeli tank turret. Violence begets violence, not freedom."

Why would we hold others to this, but not ourselves? Do as we say, not as we do? The U.S. seems convinced that violence is the only way to remove violent oppressors...let's not mince words here: Israel is a violent oppressor of the people of Palestine. We want them to practice non-violence, yet we cheer 'Shock and Awe' in our own name on the television? Some consistency would be nice here!

For my 2cts, I think this is a civil war that just needs to be fought out. Yes, we should try to bring about peace and end violence, but there is little common ground between parties in this conflict. It is a battle for the identity of a nation. Sometimes people just have to bleed conflict out of each other to achieve it. I wish with all my heart that that wasn't true. But both sides have legitimate claims. You can't dispute that. Compromise in politics is usually the result of blood, not good hearts. That's a truism I wish I didn't know about the world.

John

John

What about Israel being God's chosen people?

(Bracing myself....)

sketcha, I'm going to be different this time around.

I've decided that I will bring up a subject, give my opinion, then just read others opinions. I'm not going to try and dispute or change others opinions. I'll just read them and except the fact that there are different views out there. No more arguments over others views...peace man...

Mag

I know this is not the right way to think about it, so it's good for everyone that I don't have/get to make the decisions regarding it...but to hell with right and wrong...and "rights"...there hasn't been anything "right" with this situation for centuries much less since '48. Therefore, I say to hell with the "right"/just/ethical way of solving the problem.

On the one hand, American wants to play mom/dad/brother to the situation. If we are going to parent this thing, then get over there and spank some ass!

On the other hand, we must keep appearances of a diplomatic third party. No need to further the potential of a full-scale "official" Islam vs. America war. Because of course, we have to be Israel's friends...not because they are more right than the Palestinians...but because we can't overcome the belief that Israel is still God's chosen people and we damn well better be on their side so God will "continue to be on ours."

Sorry...done got theological on ya'll. But then again...I'm a much better theologian than a politician as many can already see.

I'm done.

I vote we give Arafat a bath.....that will be a fate worse than death for him.

I am amazed at how many experts there are on the board. It's like you've all been to Israel. Murder is Murder. Terrorists should be rid of. But don't judge a people. North America is supposed to be a role model for peace, freedom and humility. I have Palestinian friends who are friends with Jews. I also know that the peace loving Palestinians who depend on the Jews for work are considered dirt from the time they are born. How soon do we forget the American Revolution? There were atrocities. How soon do we forget the Civil Rights movement? I personally believe in Chinese justice for all terrorists. The reason the conflict will never end is the same reason everyone here chooses to pick one side. The side chosen by western media. I in no way condone the terrorists. Every time I see the innosent hurt, I want revenge. But what about all the innocent?

I agree, remove the regime. Don't judge the people.

john john

"Israel is the ruling force, so has the responsibility to initiate cessation of conflict." no they are not.

40 odd years ago the palasinians were given the right of self government. they elected arafat, a terrorist gangster as their leader in an election controlled by his thugs. several billion dollars has been handed over to the palastinian leadership and arafat has several billion dollars hidden all over the world and "his" people have ****.

in no geography book in the palastine classrooms show israel. i have seen the sesame street type tv the children ar subjected to. they are not taught reading and writing as are sesame street does, they are indoctrinated into wanting to become suicide murders, instead of doctors, engineers, teachers, or anything else of value. arafat has had 40 years to raise his army of "manchurian candidates", removing him won't stop the violence, they are acting on their indocrinations.

rabbi kahane said years ago, we can't live side by side with these animals, get them out of our midst. send them to any arab country that wants them. he was assasinated, and his son and grand daughter were murdered a few years ago.

what would you propose if you lived in a huge apartment complex that had a group of blue men living in almost 40 % of the apartments and every so often one of them would go visit a neighbor with a back pack on, blow his neighbors to pieces along with himself because he wanted to get to blue heaven.

the first time would surprise the hell out of every one. after about 5 of these, you discover they want to do this to all their neighbors.

**** em, apartment after apartment, put each family in a taxi with all their belongings, give them money for a new apartment, and get them the hell away before they kill your family.

one by one in every arab town these animals should be put on a bus, given some money to start a new life, and take them to any arab country they want. remember they live in squalor, they have no jobs, they have no education, they should be given the chance to start a new life, not to mention preventing them from taking your's.

As can easily be seen from all these opposing viewpoints... there just ain't an easy answer to this problem. Israel has had their home in this area for over 3000 or so years. The Palestinians (under different national names) have had their home in this area for over 3000 or so years. The Jewish people have been forced out too many times to count. The Arabic peoples have had the crud kicked out of them and been forced out too many times to count. Before 1949 the Jewish independence movement (Irgun) engaged in its own war of independence (terror) in Palestine against the British authorities and their Palestinian puppets. One ot its most influential leaders was Menachim Begin.

After 1949 you have the creation of the the PLO and Fatah, their military arm headed by none other than Yasser Arafat. He was over the organization when the Black September Group (under Fatah sponsorship) murdered the Israeli athletes at the 1972 Munich Olympics. Arafat showed no real sign of slowing down his campaign of terror until the Camp David Accords during the tenure of President Jimmy Carter. It is hard to determine whether anything really slowed down or not.

In conclusion, on the one hand, you have a Zionist government who feels they have a God given right to rule the land of Israel (what that means, even Israelis can't agree upon) and, on the other, you have a Muslim people who feel they have a God given right to rule the land of Palestine (what that means even the Palestinians can't agree upon). Sounds to me like no one knows what they want or what they're willing to give up to get it. I firmly believe that the majority of the citizens on both sides want peace... but then again, what is the real definition of peace? I sure don't know.

one way or another... on any givin day in the land over Yonder... Somebody's destin to go meet their Maker!!!

Hog

rayder1,

Before the Jewish peoples descended into Canaan, it was occupied by the Moabites, the Malachites, the Hittites, .. to name merely a few. The Jews were ordered by G_d to destroy them all. The Jewish people did this for the most part although they did not completely follow the instructions of their L_ord G_d Alm_ghty. If memory serves me, these Peoples were of Arab descent.

As far as the Crusades or the Spanish Inquisition are concerned... they are just further examples of the same abuses you now see with an Islamic State running a country. If you believe differently... you die. That is why freedom of religion is such a cornerstone of a truly free society.

Rick,

Palestinians are people, not animals. Until you can recognize that fact, there is no point in discussion. Do you realize that very few Palestinians are suicide bombers?

Or do you also think the Israelis are animals, making millions of homeless and stateless people, then denying them the possibility of returning home, savagely oppressing any who remain.?

At least be fair if you are going to call one side 'animals.' Otherwise, you fail to address the facts: these are humans. No side has really ever distinguished itself as respectful and respectable.

John

It's this simple to me.

If the Palestinians stop terrorizing Israel the peace begins...if Israel stops the retaliation, the terrorism continues...and continues...and continues...and continues...

Mag

grond,

gotcha

This may be a threadjack, but I think it is on topic.
EDUCATION LEVEL.
My degree is in Sociology, yes that is why I run a kitchen. LOL
Anyway, what I am getting at is this. Many of the schools in the middle east, are sponsered, or run by, the different religous groups. Most of these schools, indoctrinate their students with a mixture of their religous views, along with some basic education. But, they never teach ANYTHING, that conflicts with those views. It has been my experience, that it is mainly the uneducated, or undereducated, that are easily indoctrinated, into the more fundamentalists, radical religions, see radical muslums, or closer to home, the snakehandling christians here at home. Here, in the Ozarks, of NW arkansas, it is perfectly illustrated, by a comment I heard the otherday. I was being solicited to go to a revival, at the local 7th day adventist church. I shop at there co-op for many of my foods, so I see them quite often. I explained that I worked on the weekends, and couldn't make it, which was on the verge of Blasphemy, to them, since I worked on the Sabbath, Saturday for them. The woman told me that the preacher taught from the King James version of the Bible, so it was the true WORD OF GOD, unlike the other translations. I didn't want to create a stir, so I didn't point out to her that King JAmes, was the final editor, of that version, and could change the things he wanted to, and did. Why, because this is the only place to get organically grown foods, within a 60 mile radius, and it is less than a city block from my home.
Anyway, enough rambling.
Education can stop the radical religous groups from being able to recruit for their warriors, not the planners, but the people who are willing to commit the suicidal attacks, so they can be on the right side with their GOD. It is not the fault of the religion, which both, judism, and the muslum religion are beautiful in their raw form. But what man has interperated the religions to be saying, and the way men have changed the interpretations to justify their personal wants.
Thats enough of my drivel.
Later
Dave (A.K.A. Homebrew)

Hmmmmmmmmm,
Maybe I am way off base with this. I wonder how long either group would last without foriegn aid. I have a sneaking suspicion that Isreal would resort to terrorism, to keep their lands, if they didn't have US money to keep their army armed. Just a stray thought, that I probably will wish I didn't post when I sober up.
Later
Dave (A.K.A. Homebrew)

Rick, another good point by you!!!

Damn that Vegas trip is doing you some good eh??

I ain't gunna say nothin about you bein on my prayer list ever since you sent me the Presidential Tins and the Monty!!! LoL

it's gotta be the Vegas Air!!!!

Hog

Rick, you have lost it. That was a hateful and nonsensical post. Give me a break.

"Good points"

What points did you make, Rick? That you hate Palestinians? That you clearly have no knowledge of the history of the region, the brutality of the refugee camps, the cruelty of the Israeli state to the Palestinians?

What Bad Frog smoke haze are you in, bro?

I do think you owe me an apology for the Nazi reference. That was a truly disgusting turn, especially if you knew some facts about my family history. F*** you for that.

John

Rick I think your post is a good one, great points! Is somebody sensitive today?

Mag

who said... "Smoke This" Clue: 20 January 1998 ??

Hog

jdrabinski

john, john. what in the world has gotten in to you.

"no BS about their being made homless by the state of israel, and the jews did not cause any economic problem in germany requiring their "elimination" by the nazi's."

how does that reference have anything to do with you and your family.

i'll assume you are still rational, not withstanding the "**** you rick." if i'm wrong, then this has no meaning to you. simply stated, the palastiens were not made homeless by6 the israels and the jews in germany did not cause chaos to the economy of nazi germany.

both are propaganda used to further some cause.

"Arafat is not the leader of the P.A" no it's the easter bunny. he was is and will continue to be until he is gone and hopefully replaced by someone who has his people's interest at heart and not the destruction of israel.

"That you hate Palestinians." no i feel sorry for them. if arafat and his gangsters had not taken over those people, but rather some one, as i have already stated,who had the interest of the people. had been elected leader, perhaps the palestinians would have received the money in the form of homes, roads, schools, decent education, instead of arafat stealing it.

sharon was corect. if he had had arafat killed before he stole the power as the leader, the entire situation would have been better.

since i don't know squat about your family history, how could i say something bad about it on purpose.

that is a specious argument and you should know it.

i am back from a great vacation and will be delighted to learn about your family so that if i chose to insult you, i can be specific.

oh, sticks and stones, and **** you's don't bother me.

been there. done it. bought the tee-shirt.

It is written, the Middle East will never be in peace

gosh!

i haven't heard back from jdrabinski.

Rickamaven, Thats a good thing...

Mag