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Veterans for Clark
cwilhelmi Offline
#1 Posted:
Joined: 07-24-2001
Posts: 2,739
excerpt from www.veteransforclark2004.us

As veterans we have served our country in defense of a way of life that Americans cherish. Over the past three years we have seen much of that being threatened. We have seen our economy virtually destroyed, our educational system raped along with hard fought for environmental laws being systematically repealed. We have a justice department that is ripping up our constitutional rights in the name of Homeland Security and we have a President who has wrapped himself in the flag and used the tragedy of 9/11 to implement military conquest in lieu of diplomacy and engagement. And finally we have seen our sons and daughters and brothers and sisters on active duty put in harms way, many to return in the dark, and many more returning with lifelong wounds that will require care in Veterans Hospitals around the country. Care that has been cruelly cut by this administration.



We believe that fellow retiree, General Wesley Clark has this ability to change all that. Clark is also a Southern Democrat, has an unbeatable record on national security, progressive on social issues (pro-choice, supports affirmative action), brilliant academic background and accomplished professional career. He's highly articulate, and has a telegenic persona (as evidenced by his frequent appearances as a national security consultant on CNN during the Iraqi War).

Career highlights:
General Wesley K. Clark is one of the nation's most distinguished retired military officers. During his thirty four years of service in the United States Army, he held numerous staff and command positions, rising to the rank of 4-star general and NATO Supreme Allied Commander.

From 1997 through May of 2000, General Clark was NATO Supreme Allied Commander and Commander in Chief of the United States European Command. In this position, General Clark commanded Operation Allied Force, NATO's first major combat action, which saved 1.5 million Albanians from ethnic cleansing in Kosovo.

From 1996 to 1997 General Clark served as Commander in Chief of the United States Southern Command, Panama, where he was responsible for the direction of U.S. military activities in Latin America and the Caribbean.

From 1994 to 1996, he served as Director for Strategic Plans and Policy for the Joint Chiefs of Staff with responsibilities for worldwide U.S. military strategic planning.

General Clark is a 1966 graduate of the United States Military Academy at West Point where he graduated first in his class. He holds a Masters Degree in Philosophy, Politics and Economics from Oxford University where he was a Rhodes Scholar.

General Clark is a recipient of numerous U.S. and foreign military awards, including the Silver Star, Bronze Star and Purple Heart. He has received honorary Knighthoods from the British and Dutch governments and was made a commander of the French Legion of Honor. In August 2000, General Clark was awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom, the nation's highest civilian honor.
THL Offline
#2 Posted:
Joined: 10-22-2002
Posts: 3,044
Another liberal idealogue.....ho hum. This is one Viet-Nam vet who is decidedly anti-Clark.
cwilhelmi Offline
#3 Posted:
Joined: 07-24-2001
Posts: 2,739
THL - for what reasons?
kccody Offline
#4 Posted:
Joined: 03-19-2007
Posts: 610
Being that I have served the last 19 years in the military I would whole heartedly NOT support this clown......
THL Offline
#5 Posted:
Joined: 10-22-2002
Posts: 3,044
No matter his credentials, his words are just variations on the themes touted by other Dems. The opening paragraph you chose illustrates that perfectly. As a member of 2 veterans' organizations I will tell you that his candidacy has virtually no support of the rank and file of those organizations. The name of his website is offensive to us,www.veteransforclark2004.us ; what are there about 6 veterans that support him? Yet he's trying to market his veteran status so as to appear to have widespread support.
We may not agree with everything "W" has done, but generally, we support him. Clark is rightfully regarded as a Clinton toadie and liberal apostle.
cwilhelmi Offline
#6 Posted:
Joined: 07-24-2001
Posts: 2,739
THL - thanks for the clarification.

He did not setup this website, as it clearly states it was setup by a grass roots group of veterans who support him.
JonR Offline
#7 Posted:
Joined: 02-19-2002
Posts: 9,740
Yo cwilhelmi: You will never make a good comedian, you set up the joke and then never delivered the punchline. Let me see if I can help. Here's the punchline, " Wesley Clark ". Don't bother to thank me I'm always glad to help out. PS.. Mares eat oats and Does eat oats and "little lambs eat ivy " a kid will eat ivy too wouldn't you. JonR
THL Offline
#8 Posted:
Joined: 10-22-2002
Posts: 3,044
cwilhelmi:
Please, you can't be so naive as to believe that every facet of his candidacy is not being orchestrated by professional campaign managers. I guess some of their employees may be veterans; lol.
cwilhelmi Offline
#9 Posted:
Joined: 07-24-2001
Posts: 2,739
THL - That site is very simple and obviously not professionally designed, also it's one of MANY sites that are setup by individuals showing support for candidates with no real affiliation. Are you so naive as to believe that every website endorsing a certain candidate is under their control?

JonR - Again with the sheep fetish, you need to get out more... I would love to meet you in person and discuss politics, it would probably be quite enlightening for you...
cwilhelmi Offline
#10 Posted:
Joined: 07-24-2001
Posts: 2,739
By the way JonR, thanks for commenting with your usual drivel which in effect adds nothing to the discussion. It's nice to be able to count on some things...
Homebrew Offline
#11 Posted:
Joined: 02-11-2003
Posts: 11,885
Iam one conservative, who will cross the line, and vote for Clark. The patriot act, and Rumsfield have turned me off to this president, and no republican will run against him. What choice do I have????
I also know the man. Have met him on several occasions, including the dinner table, at my fathers house. He is a centrist, who is also not a man to be controlled by his party. He is a true leader, unlike the spoiled rotten brat that George W. Bush has turned out to be.
Later
Dave (A.K.A. Homebrew)
P.S. And no I am not a veteran, but I rent a room to one, who totally is behind General Clark. And my father is a veteran, who also agrees with Clark.
THL Offline
#12 Posted:
Joined: 10-22-2002
Posts: 3,044
cwilhelmi: I'm probably more cynical than naive, I guess. Pls don't be offended, I chose my words poorly and shouldn't have suggested naivte` on your part.
I have a deep mistrust for all politicians and an instinctive dislike for people who strive to lead no matter their party affilliations. I even thought the kids who wanted to be on the Student Council were jerks. Every election is to me a choice between evils. At the moment conservatives offend me slightly less; although I'm not thrilled with the Patriot Act either.
cwilhelmi Offline
#13 Posted:
Joined: 07-24-2001
Posts: 2,739
THL - Gotcha, and I agree completely, except that I'm a little more on the liberal side regarding social issues.

The thing I like about Clark is that he can actually back up his talk, and that he speaks his mind.
GTofMurphy Offline
#14 Posted:
Joined: 05-16-2002
Posts: 341
Wasn't he fire by Clinton?
GT
THL Offline
#15 Posted:
Joined: 10-22-2002
Posts: 3,044
At least that's his well studied schtik. See? There goes my cynicism again.
cwilhelmi Offline
#16 Posted:
Joined: 07-24-2001
Posts: 2,739
I don't consider his resume to be schtik(sp), he's earned the respect he's given. Unlike some others...
Homebrew Offline
#17 Posted:
Joined: 02-11-2003
Posts: 11,885
In a recent Blind Bio poll,
Clark Beat Bush, by over 9 percentage points. This is a blind Bio poll, the names of the cadidates were not mentioned, just their credentials. Sounds like he will not be a flash in the pan. This election, the ameican people are looking for someone who will not sell their country, to the highest bidder. They will not accept a lock step party member either. They are looking for a fresh viewpoint. I believe that General Clark is that man.
Later
Dave (A.K.A. Homebrew)
arjay Offline
#18 Posted:
Joined: 06-05-2002
Posts: 14
Gen. Wesley Clark is being praised by Democrats as a man of keen intellect and sound judgment, but a top military commander who served under him in the Kosovo War said he had to overrule the former NATO commander out of fear he was about to start World War III.

When Gen. Clark got word that Russian forces were about to occupy the Serbian airport at Pristina, he ordered British Lt. Gen. Michael Jackson to parachute troops onto the tarmac to confront the Red Army.

Gen. Jackson flatly refused to obey Clark's direct command, reportedly telling the general-turned-presidential candidate, "I'm not going to start the Third World War for you."

Gen. Jackson isn't the only military man who has expressed concern that the would-be president is something of a loose cannon.

At the height of the war Gen. Clark held a news conference, without clearing it with the Pentagon, where he admitted that Slobodan Milosevic had succeeded in sending reinforcements into Kosovo. The comment prompted a call from Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman Gen. Hugh Shelton.

According to Thursday's Washington Times, Shelton barked at Clark: "The secretary of defense asked me to give you some verbatim guidance, so here it is. Get your f@@king face off the TV."
arjay Offline
#19 Posted:
Joined: 06-05-2002
Posts: 14
Yes, General Clark was fired by Pres Clinton. i.e. he was forced to take early retirement. As supreme commander of NATO he was very much involved in and ultimatlely responsible for the decision not to move heavy tanks and dragon ships into Somalia when the Clinton administration ramped up the American military presense after the 92 election. As a result, 18 Army Rangers were brutally murdered in Mogadishu. See "Blackhawk Down" if you want to know what that was like.

Frankly, I think he's another tool of the Clintons. Kind of like Janet Reno was, and many others. Read a bit more about this subject in the next few weeks/months and I think you'll find more than you care to know.
usahog Offline
#20 Posted:
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
arjay, welcome aboard first of all...

myself... I'm reading up more and more on Clark.. I want to know what makes the Man himself... I've been impressed with what inof I am catching on him... yes I've heard and read most of both sides of the Issues on him... and I can see where your postings look something like the Trials on Oly North... Swartzkof (sp) was also asked to step down (Retire) after Publicly Saying he wasn't finished yet in 1991....
Who's to say Weasly Clark isn't that Strong Leadership we need in the Whitehouse... you know the Type... The Buck Stops Here!!!!????

Hog
usahog Offline
#21 Posted:
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
By David H. Hackworth



With Wesley Clark joining the Democratic presidential candidates, there are enough eager bodies pointed toward the White House to make up a rifle squad. This bunch of wannabes could make things increasingly hot for Dubya – as long as they don’t blow each other away with friendly fire.

Since Clark tossed his steel pot into the inferno, I've been constantly asked, “Hack, what do you think of the general?”

For the record, I never served with Clark. But after spending three hours interviewing the man for Maxim’s November issue, I’m impressed. He is insightful, he has his act together, he understands what makes national security tick – and he thinks on his feet somewhere around Mach 3. No big surprise, since he graduated first in his class from West Point, which puts him in the super-smart set with Robert E. Lee, Douglas MacArthur and Maxwell Taylor.

Clark was so brilliant, he was whisked off to Oxford as a Rhodes scholar and didn’t get his boots into the Vietnam mud until well after his 1966 West Point class came close to achieving the academy record for the most Purple Hearts in any one war. When he finally got there, he took over a 1st Infantry Division rifle company and was badly wounded.

Lt. Gen. James Hollingsworth, one of our Army’s most distinguished war heroes, says: “Clark took a burst of AK fire, but didn’t stop fighting. He stayed on the field till his mission was accomplished and his boys were safe. He was awarded the Silver Star and Purple Heart. And he earned ‘em.”

It took months for Clark to get back in shape. He had the perfect excuse, but he didn’t quit the Army to scale the corporate peaks as so many of our best and brightest did back then. Instead, he took a demoralized company of short-timers at Fort Knox who were suffering from a Vietnam hangover and made them the best on post – a major challenge in 1970 when our Army was teetering on the edge of anarchy. Then he stuck around to become one of the young Turks who forged the Green Machine into the magnificent sword that Norman Schwarzkopf swung so skillfully during Round One of the Gulf War.

I asked Clark why he didn’t turn in his bloody soldier suit for Armani and the big civvy dough that was definitely his for the asking.

His response: “I wanted to serve my country.”

He says he now wants to lead America out of the darkness, shorten what promises to be the longest and nastiest war in our history and restore our eroding prestige around the world.

For sure, he’ll be strong on defense. But with his high moral standards and because he knows where and how the game’s played, there will probably be zero tolerance for either Pentagon porking or two-bit shenanigans.

No doubt he’s made his share of enemies. He doesn’t suffer fools easily and wouldn’t have allowed the dilettantes who convinced Dubya to do Iraq to even cut the White House lawn. So he should prepare for a fair amount of dart-throwing from detractors he’s ripped into during the past three decades.

Hey, I am one of those: I took a swing at Clark during the Kosovo campaign when I thought he screwed up the operation, and I called him a “Perfumed Prince.” Only years later did I discover from his book and other research that I was wrong – the blame should have been worn by British timidity and William Cohen, U.S. SecDef at the time.

At the interview, Clark came along without the standard platoon of handlers and treated the little folks who poured the coffee and served the bacon and eggs with exactly the same respect and consideration he gave the biggies in the dining room like my colleague Larry King and Bob Tisch, the Regency Hotel’s owner. An appealing common touch.

But if he wins the election, don’t expect an Andrew Jackson field-soldier type. Clark’s an intellectual, and his military career is more like Ike’s – that of a staff guy and a brilliant high-level commander. Can he make tough decisions? Bet on it. Just like Ike did during his eight hard but prosperous years as president.

I Wish I could Underline this Part, But best I can do is repeat it...
His response: “I wanted to serve my country.”

Not I want make a buck or two...

I'm leaning towards this man being a Soldiers, General... God Knows the Soldiers of today need men like that looking out for them!!!! not the YesMen we've seemed to aquired lately....

We'll see how the turn of events unfold....
just my buck 250....
Hog



DrMaddVibe Offline
#22 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,556
http://www.losaltosonline.com/articles/2003/09/23/news/community/news01.txt

"I wish it were vodka"
usahog Offline
#23 Posted:
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
Great Post Dr....I have many many letters Shelton had writen through his Career as I came to know him... he is one of the Trusted men in the Military... the Problem were facing right now with the stretched out Military is theres to many Damn Yes Men left over from the Clinton Years!!!! and that in it's own is not good for the American Fighting Forces...I Also feel.. IMO alone... Pres. Bush needs to have allot of folks step down and be accounted for!!!!

Since my previous post on this Issue I have read and personally agree with allot of the Negative points pointed out against Clark...

we still have allot of time before we punch our tickets... it will be interesting to see the views on the Issue's leading up to the Chads!!!!

Hog
rwestcot Offline
#24 Posted:
Joined: 02-02-2003
Posts: 133
Wesley Clark will be the next President of the United States.
usahog Offline
#25 Posted:
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
Don't put all your chips on Red... rwestcot!!!!

like I said long time before their counting Chad...

Hog
cwilhelmi Offline
#26 Posted:
Joined: 07-24-2001
Posts: 2,739
rwestcot - I agree.
Homebrew Offline
#27 Posted:
Joined: 02-11-2003
Posts: 11,885
Hey DMV,
Did Shelton, make any specific reasons, that he would not support Wesley Clark?? I didn't see any, in that article. Very Vague.
Later
Dave (A.K.A. Homebrew)
DrMaddVibe Offline
#28 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,556
He eluded to character issues being a flaw in decision making...where have I heard that one before???

Make no bones about it, he's a puppet put out there to distract attention from Dean,Kerry,Mosley-Braun(snicker)and make sure the party is fractured sooo bad that GW will make Reagan's landslide against Mondale complete. It wouldn't surprise me at all if he falters and Hillary comes in at the stoke of 11:59 and take him as her running mate.

When you're forced out of the "General's Club" then you know there's a problem with him. When I see him on TV...he conjurs up images of Perot. Blaming everyone and not having a plan of his own. Black helicopters are flying overhead and crazy grandma's in the basement...that kind of stuff. If he isn't fit to lead troops...he isn't fit to lead a nation!
DrMaddVibe Offline
#29 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,556
"That question makes me wish it were vodka," said Shelton. "I've known Wes for a long time. I WILL TELL YOU THE REASON HE CAME OUT OF EUROPE EARLY HAD TO DO WITH INTEGRITY AND CHARACTER ISSUES, things that are very near and dear to my heart. I'm not going to say whether I'm a Republican or a Democrat. I'll just say Wes won't get my vote."

DrMaddVibe Offline
#30 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,556
I also offer this as supplimentary reading...


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,98245,00.html
cwilhelmi Offline
#31 Posted:
Joined: 07-24-2001
Posts: 2,739
No matter what, it's going to be lively!
Homebrew Offline
#32 Posted:
Joined: 02-11-2003
Posts: 11,885
Like I said, the article you listed had NO Specifics. Just an un-cited attack on Clark. Who said, all generals think alike. Character issues, name one raised by that article. There are NO Specifics, but several redherrings, remember comp 101, when the professor taught about the different propaganda, including redherrings, technequies, and how to avoid being sucked in by them. A redherring is when you make an attack, character flaws, and drag in something unrelated, like the generals recovery from partial paralysis, to cover up the fact, that no facts are listed, to support the claim. The Bush team relies on propaganda techniques, to attack anyone they see as a threat.
Later
Dave (A.K.A. Homebrew)
DrMaddVibe Offline
#33 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,556
A general isn't forced out for no good reason!

Just like bad doctors and lawyers...the "profession" takes care of itself through a governing body. Nothing political. He must've errored in either human casualties or severe money drain to the system for him to be forced out.

Lt's start out cocky and ready to "change the system" and follow orders. Some by earning the troops respect.

Capt.'s accept earned responsibility and carry out their orders. Some earn respect.

Maj.'s have been in the "system" long enough to know the "rules".

Lt.Col.s mellow out and either retire due to age or passed over for promotion.

generals make and set policy. They're voted up in rank by each other and are weeded out for not following policy or orders. Most retire of age constraints, but to be forced out at this level...you HAD to mess up.

This is all from an enlisted man's point of view, so if there are any officers(past or present) that think I have this post wrong...please post with a reply.
Homebrew Offline
#34 Posted:
Joined: 02-11-2003
Posts: 11,885
Or just piss off Bill Clinton,
Remember he was Commander In Cheif, at the time. And I believe, he was the only man, at the time, who could have forced him out.
Later
Dave (A.K.A. Homebrew)
DrMaddVibe Offline
#35 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,556
While he's "commander in chief" he can order military deployment, but he cannot force anyone out of the service(whatever branch!)except for dereliction of duty.

Like I said...there's nothing political about the generals forcing somebody out.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#36 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,556
http://www.zpub.com/un/clark.html
DrMaddVibe Offline
#37 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,556
http://www.counterpunch.org/waco.html
xibbumbero Offline
#38 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2002
Posts: 12,535
Iffin Wesley Clark becomes president,maybe he will sign the aid for disabled veterans bill,cause Dubya says he will not. X
cwilhelmi Offline
#39 Posted:
Joined: 07-24-2001
Posts: 2,739
Didn't the same thing happen to Schwartzkoph(sp)?? I think it did...
Homebrew Offline
#40 Posted:
Joined: 02-11-2003
Posts: 11,885
Hmmmm DMV,
The Waco article, is more inuendo, short on fact, and high on propaganda. Even the title, leads the reader to believe in something, not supported anywhere in the article. I am hoping that the other link you posted has something in it of substance. What's the difference between, Bombing Milosevich's personal home, and Saddam Hussains Personal residence, besides their geograpic placement????
Ho Hum, Hope the next link is better.
Later
Dave (A.K.A. Homebrew)
Homebrew Offline
#41 Posted:
Joined: 02-11-2003
Posts: 11,885
Hmmmm second article,
had alot of more unsubstatiated B.S. They kept citing the other site, which I see to be total B.S. with unsupported claims. I backtracked the server, it seems to be some PAC, like those can be trusted to always report the truth. LOL How about some credible sources every now and then.
Later
Dave (A.K.A. Homebrew)
DrMaddVibe Offline
#42 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,556
So you checked who was post commander like I did?

You also noted when those were put up, and that they appeared very close to the original dates and not some attempt to "cash in" on some purported propaganda like you've insuiated?

There are plenty of other links in the above posts to keep people informed on your brand new "Mr.Smith Goes to Washington" dream candidate. Do your own research. Its not that hard to do!

PS:what PAC is the site affiliated with?
Homebrew Offline
#43 Posted:
Joined: 02-11-2003
Posts: 11,885
Hell,
the Counterpunch site solicites "Tax Deductable contributions", This is either a flim flam outfit or a PAC. If they are not a PAC, or a charitable organization, which they obviously are not, then they are in violation of federal law. Since the other sites, aledged damaging information, about clark, is sited on this site, I believe it to be disreputable. Show me a more legitamate site, saying the same things, I may believe you. But as of now, I remain unconvinced. I have never heard of any of these socalled journalists. So I have no reason to value their unsubstantiated viewpoint, or beliefs.
Later
Dave (A.K.A. Homebrew)
Homebrew Offline
#44 Posted:
Joined: 02-11-2003
Posts: 11,885
By the way DMV,
I do my own research, just avoid being misled by doing a little research, on my sources.
Later
Dave (A.K.A. Homebrew)
DrMaddVibe Offline
#45 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,556
How did you backtrack the server?
Homebrew Offline
#46 Posted:
Joined: 02-11-2003
Posts: 11,885
Go to the front page, of their site, use the ifo there to see what the site, is all about, how it is funded, etc. That will give you the info you need to make an informed decision. Where are their citations???? A reputable source, will have info, that someone else besides them self, can verify. Also reputable news sources, do not accept tax deductable donations.
Later
Dave (A.K.A. Homebrew)
DrMaddVibe Offline
#47 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,556
Nevermind...thought you were tracking MAC and IP addresses.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#48 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,556
Chris...this one's for you...

http://www.the-v-man.com/schwar.html
usahog Offline
#49 Posted:
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
Great Quote; From a Great Commander!!!!

"The mothers and fathers of America will give you their sons and daughters...with the confidence in you that you will not needlessly waste their lives. And you dare not. That's the burden the mantle of leadership places upon you. You could be the person who gives the orders that will bring about the deaths of thousands and thousands of young men and women. It is an awesome responsibility. You cannot fail. You dare not fail..."

Where the Hell are the Leaders like this, TODAY????

Hog
usahog Offline
#50 Posted:
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
Clark is a Yes Man... he was a Yes Man with Rank in Seariavo/Cosovo (sp) and that is why he was stepped down....

do you non military folks know what a Yes Man is???

Hog
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