America's #1 Online Cigar Auction
first, best, biggest!

Last post 20 years ago by RICKAMAVEN. 65 replies replies.
2 Pages12>
CREATIONISM OR EVOLUTION
Jump to Bottom | Previous Topic | Next Topic
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#1 Posted: Sat, Jan 3 2004, 12:24 AM EST
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
what do you guys think?
CWFoster Offline
#2 Posted: Sat, Jan 3 2004, 3:58 AM EST
Joined: 12-12-2003
Posts: 5,414
I think man was created in Gods image, and has been making a monkey out of himself ever since :)
puskarich Offline
#3 Posted: Sat, Jan 3 2004, 5:43 AM EST
Joined: 01-04-2003
Posts: 2,143
Both. I never understood why people felt it only had to be one or the other.
Gene363 Offline
#4 Posted: Sat, Jan 3 2004, 6:04 AM EST
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,874
puskarich

You make a good point. The moral messages found in the bible are too often lost in arguments about the verifiability of specific details. Unfortunately, this plays right into the hands of those that spurn the idea of a greater power or god.

As I type no doubt, Rick is setting back with devilish glee waiting to pounce.

I have a little joke about this issue:

The Contest

One day a group of scientists got together and decided that man had come a long way and no longer needed God. So they picked one scientist to go and tell Him that they were done with Him. The scientist walked up to God and said, "God, we've decided that we no longer need you. We're to the point that we can clone people and do many miraculous things, so why don't you just go on and get lost."

God listened very patiently and kindly to the man and after the scientist was done talking, God said, "Very well, how about this, let's say we have a man making contest." To which the scientist replied, "OK, great!" But God added, "Now, we're going to do this just like I did back in the old days with Adam." The scientist said, "Sure, no problem" and bent down and grabbed himself a handful of dirt. God just looked at him and said, "No, no, no. You go get your own dirt!"

xrundog Offline
#5 Posted: Sat, Jan 3 2004, 7:33 AM EST
Joined: 01-17-2002
Posts: 2,212
I really don't see any conflict between the two.
Cigarick Offline
#6 Posted: Sat, Jan 3 2004, 7:35 AM EST
Joined: 07-28-2002
Posts: 3,078
"Geology shows that fossils are of different ages. Paleontology shows a fossil sequence, the list of species represented changes through time. Taxonomy shows biological relationships among species. Evolution is the explanation that threads it all together. Creationism is the practice of squeeezing one's eyes shut and wailing, "Does not!"
Burky4467 Offline
#7 Posted: Sat, Jan 3 2004, 7:58 AM EST
Joined: 12-27-2003
Posts: 875
When I read some of these posts I really question my own intelligence. My general studies degree from University of Phoenix is really not that impressive! :)
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#8 Posted: Sat, Jan 3 2004, 11:31 AM EST
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
Gene363

"As I type no doubt, Rick is setting back with devilish glee waiting to pounce."

no pouncing. i just thought i'd introduce an interesting topic and see what develops.

it may be too early, what with the football games, but so far nothing has developed.

RICKAMAVEN Offline
#9 Posted: Sat, Jan 3 2004, 11:35 AM EST
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
this what triggered my post:

http://www.sfgate.com./cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/01/02/DDG2641IVT1.DTL

perhaps i have a hair trigger.
SteveS Offline
#10 Posted: Sat, Jan 3 2004, 12:09 PM EST
Joined: 01-13-2002
Posts: 8,751
Jon Carroll has never written a collumn that didn't p*ss me off ... if there's a human being on the face of the earth who's more of a one-note-Jonny in his constant b*tching about GWB than Rick is, it's Jon Carroll ... as soon as I saw who wrote the article, I didn't bother to read it because it's a nice day here and I didn't want to spoil it by reading any of his crap ...
Gene363 Offline
#11 Posted: Sat, Jan 3 2004, 1:43 PM EST
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,874
Rick,

Stirring things up can be great sport.

Being a very happy transplant to South Carolina I expected to be appalled by racism and all the other southern stereotypes. Boy was I wrong! With some exceptions, people here get along and live side by side like no place in America. However, I was amazed at the polarization here on the issue of creation Vs Evolution. I am talking about very educated scientists and engineers. One does have to admire their faith, and there are people that make some complex arguments about science Vs theory.

An excellent magazine for this and other topics is:

Skeptic.

http://www.skeptic.com/
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#12 Posted: Sat, Jan 3 2004, 3:29 PM EST
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
Gene363

thanks for the site. i have it bookmarked to read tonight.
rck_1 Offline
#13 Posted: Sat, Jan 3 2004, 4:25 PM EST
Joined: 01-28-2003
Posts: 656
What if...............

God really did create man in his image???? and 17 billion years ago that image was a monkey!!!!! and he never even thought about evolution as a factor in the outcome of what we look like today.

Not sure if that will make sense: 3 crowns on the rocks and an MX2 makes me not think clearly!! lol

Happy Herf`n
Rob
donutboy2000 Offline
#14 Posted: Sat, Jan 3 2004, 6:24 PM EST
Joined: 11-20-2001
Posts: 25,000
Evolution, revolution, gun control, the sound of soul
shooting rockets to the moon
kids growing up too soon
politicians say more taxes will solve everything

And the band played on

So, round and around and around we go
where the world's headed, nobody knows

Oh, Great Googamooga, can't you hear me talkin' to you
just a Ball of Confusion, oh yeah
that's what the world is today, hey
CWFoster Offline
#15 Posted: Sat, Jan 3 2004, 7:40 PM EST
Joined: 12-12-2003
Posts: 5,414
Give that man a BEER!
sketcha Offline
#16 Posted: Sun, Jan 4 2004, 9:33 AM EST
Joined: 03-26-2003
Posts: 3,238
Hey donut,

Did Love and Rockets do that first or did they just cover it?

00camper Offline
#17 Posted: Mon, Jan 5 2004, 5:37 AM EST
Joined: 07-11-2003
Posts: 2,326
Cigarick says:
"Geology shows that fossils are of different ages. Paleontology shows a fossil sequence, the list of species represented changes through time. Taxonomy shows biological relationships among species. Evolution is the explanation that threads it all together. Creationism is the practice of squeeezing one's eyes shut and wailing, "Does not!"

My response is that

[1] the geologic record only proves that the creatures existed at the point in time when their skeletal remains became fossilized.

[2] taxonomy only proves that certain creatures are bioligically related to each other; taxonomy can prove that my house cat is biologically related to to the zoo's lioness, not that one is evolved from the other.

[3] believing that the universe and all therein is created is not, as you say, the practice of squeezing one's eyes shut and wailing "Does not!" Believing that the world is a created place is the practice of faith and the belief that individual people are special creations of God.

So, in my opinion, evolutionism is the practice of squeezing one's heart shut in an attempt to will God out of existence. After all, if the evolutionists can explain in precise detail something that supposedly happend 50 million years ago, why can't the police solve a murder that only happened last week?





sketcha Offline
#18 Posted: Mon, Jan 5 2004, 8:29 AM EST
Joined: 03-26-2003
Posts: 3,238
When you look at string theory, it does not preclude the non-existence of a creator as well as many more dimensions.

Science is far from holding all the answers. The fact that we still must use 2 completely different theories to describe the universe (Relativity for the macro and Quantum for the micro) tells us that there's something missing from our understanding.

I think it best to remain open-minded.
Cigarick Offline
#19 Posted: Mon, Jan 5 2004, 10:02 AM EST
Joined: 07-28-2002
Posts: 3,078
"if the evolutionists can explain in precise detail something that supposedly happend 50 million years ago, why can't the police solve a murder that only happened last week?"

A specious argument. Crimes go unsolved because of too little evidence, which is quite different from believing in something for which there is no evidence.
patman Offline
#20 Posted: Mon, Jan 5 2004, 12:30 PM EST
Joined: 12-22-2003
Posts: 262
"Blessed is he who believes and does no see"
This is a temporary world. I am a believer in Christ and thus the creation of man. My mind can’t even begin to control or understand the motivations of my own heart and will let alone the origination and direction of an entire world.

Therefore I will do the best I can in all that I do until the day I meet my maker and then I will praise him for eternity.


coda Offline
#21 Posted: Mon, Jan 5 2004, 1:55 PM EST
Joined: 07-27-2003
Posts: 623
"... taxonomy can prove that my house cat is biologically related to to the zoo's lioness, not that one is evolved from the other. "

Is this really the common understanding of evolution out there?

I suppose that if I didn't understand the basic concept of gravity, I'd be arguing that the world was flat....
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#22 Posted: Mon, Jan 5 2004, 2:17 PM EST
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
Gene363

great site. i am printing articles to read outside when the temperture warms. right now it's about 60, too cold to go outside.
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#23 Posted: Mon, Jan 5 2004, 2:24 PM EST
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
00camper

"why can't the police solve a murder that only happened last week?"

don't you watch "cold case files?" not the network program, the ones on the history or discover or tlc or one of those satellite channels.
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#24 Posted: Mon, Jan 5 2004, 2:26 PM EST
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
patman

you have made the leap of faith and are a peaceful man because of it. good for you.
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#25 Posted: Mon, Jan 5 2004, 2:29 PM EST
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
coda

if you have some time, you might enjoy the book "flatland"

http://www.alcyone.com/max/lit/flatland/
choner Offline
#26 Posted: Mon, Jan 5 2004, 2:31 PM EST
Joined: 02-04-2003
Posts: 876
I don't see how evolution and creationism goes hand in hand, or how they are not conflicting. You either believe God created Man and all the other creatures in the world, or you believe most every creature came from simpler creatures through evolution. Can someone who believes in both explain to me their thinking.

Evolution doesn't happen overnight. If you see the vast amount of animals that exist, and see how homologous their DNA is concerning certain important genes, you would be surprised. Many essential genes that humans need, are very similiar in several species from worms, to flies, to elephants, which supports a common descendent.

Also, human mitochondria contains two cell membranes and an extra set of foreign DNA. It is theorized that human mitochondria was once a bacteria or single-celled organism, which was engulf by a larger organism to put it to use for the larger organism, thus allowing the larger organism to proper.

And if you look at early development in several species, you notice that during the embryonic stages, there are so much similarities between the species in physical, chemical, and biological ways. Even embyonic humans look like they have a tail, but it slowly diminishes, yet humans still have remnants of a tailbone which is now useless.

Fossils they have been found show many pre-cursors to hemans and to the animals that we see today. There is so much more evidence of evolution, I would be here teaching a whole course in it for a few weeks. But those are just some key examples that I remember.

As you can tell I believe in Evolution.

choner
Gene363 Offline
#27 Posted: Mon, Jan 5 2004, 2:45 PM EST
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,874
choner

Couldn't God have created the elements and started the evolutionary process?
coda Offline
#28 Posted: Mon, Jan 5 2004, 2:57 PM EST
Joined: 07-27-2003
Posts: 623
Rickster:
Read "Flatland" a lonnng time ago. Longer than I want to say.

Choner:
I agree with your rant.

The unresolvable conflict is between a literal 7-day personal creation (Creationism) and a million-year long impersonal process.

But outside of Creationism, it is often accepted that a personal creator and evolution are not mutually exclusive.
JonR Offline
#29 Posted: Mon, Jan 5 2004, 3:24 PM EST
Joined: 02-19-2002
Posts: 9,740
God created us to evolve. JonR
CWFoster Offline
#30 Posted: Mon, Jan 5 2004, 3:54 PM EST
Joined: 12-12-2003
Posts: 5,414
"Blessed is he who believes and does no see"
This is a temporary world. I am a believer in Christ and thus the creation of man. My mind can’t even begin to control or understand the motivations of my own heart and will let alone the origination and direction of an entire world.

Therefore I will do the best I can in all that I do until the day I meet my maker and then I will praise him for eternity.


Yes, I did a cut and paste, I couldn't have said it any better!
Gene363 Offline
#31 Posted: Mon, Jan 5 2004, 4:29 PM EST
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,874
Wow!

Have you noticed the pleasant exchange of ideas on this thread?

Thank to BOTL Rick for starting it and for all that are participating.
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#32 Posted: Mon, Jan 5 2004, 4:56 PM EST
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
choner

the leap of faith is an expression that means i believe in god and will except it on my faith alone.

it does not rule out for the religious people, god works in mysterious ways. those that are not blinded by whatever blinds some people can still believe in evolution as god's way of creating.

if you have read any of my posts, you will have seen, i have no interst in a god, but i do feel the necessity of understanding other people's leap of faith.

the strict "god made man in six, 24 hour days" people are not worth talking to, they have made more then a leap of faith, they have made a leap of dumbness.
choner Offline
#33 Posted: Mon, Jan 5 2004, 5:54 PM EST
Joined: 02-04-2003
Posts: 876
Gene, I guess you can say God created the elements that started Evolution, but that's not what Creationism is. As I know it, creationism was that God created Man and everything on Earth instantly. We can debate forever about what created what, you will never know whose right. I guess that's what faith is all about. I choose not to believe in God, and try to understand the world as I see it and not let faith alone make my judgements.

Rick, good points.

choner
patman Offline
#34 Posted: Mon, Jan 5 2004, 5:56 PM EST
Joined: 12-22-2003
Posts: 262
Simply put, I don't know enough about the heart or time of God to say how or when this place I am fortunate enough to call home is or was created. All I know is that he loves everyone the same. Man, woman, black, white, American or otherwise. All I need to do is try to do the same and the rest will fall into place. No need to complicate things anymore than they already are. As I said before, "Belssed is he who belives and does not see" that happens to be a quote from the worlds best seller. It was in there for a reason... Leap of faith or pushed off the edge its all the same, you end up in the hands of God. It aint always comfortable there but its better than anywhere else.
pabloescabar Offline
#35 Posted: Mon, Jan 5 2004, 6:25 PM EST
Joined: 02-25-2005
Posts: 30,183
you must have faith,GOD is love and JESUS is coming...
Cigarick Offline
#36 Posted: Mon, Jan 5 2004, 9:08 PM EST
Joined: 07-28-2002
Posts: 3,078
Okay, I didn't want to have to do this, but fact is *I* am God, and while I kind of like most of you, there are a couple of you who are starting to piss me off.

You know who you are.

Watch yourselves.
pabloescabar Offline
#37 Posted: Tue, Jan 6 2004, 6:58 AM EST
Joined: 02-25-2005
Posts: 30,183
that I maybe mistaken for the number 1...
CWFoster Offline
#38 Posted: Tue, Jan 6 2004, 7:48 AM EST
Joined: 12-12-2003
Posts: 5,414
What Gene363 said!
00camper Offline
#39 Posted: Tue, Jan 6 2004, 8:49 AM EST
Joined: 07-11-2003
Posts: 2,326
Cigarick,
I would believe the theory of evolution to be the correct explanation for the world in which we live if there were ample evidence in support thereof.

The comparison between my house cat and the lioness was not the correct way to say it, so I will state the argument in another way:

A scientist examines fossilized bones found in a rock seam uncovered by a construction crew several feet below grade and decides they resemble those of the lioness and, to a lesser degree, those of my house cat. The scientist then declares that both the lioness and my house cat are both decended - evolved - from the Great Cat unearthed by the road crew.

Fossilized bones of other creatures are located in similar ways throughout the world and other scientists make similar observations and then declare that present day animals are decended - evolved - from the Great Animals whose fossils have been assembled into skeletons and displayed in museums.

No one questions the scientists. They must be right, mustn't they?

The point is that there are other explanations, besides evolution, for the similarity of present-day flora and fauna to that of times past:

[1] The Little Demon Theory
The Little Demon Theory holds that little demons created the fossils in their hidden laboratories and, having the ability to pass through solid rock with ease, placed the fossils where people would find them and believe that they died and were entombed there.

[2] The Seed of Aliens Theory
The Seed of Aliens Theory holds that the earth was originally populated by creatures now extinct and that aliens from GXYLIUNZ-AG decided long ago to use earth as a petri dish. All other creatures which could threaten the experiment were sterilized off the planet for the sake of science. Rumors persist that the alien scientists are disapointed with mankind because he is far too passive, that the instinct for total war sought by the aliens is not emerging as planned, and that the experiment may be terminated in favor of mosquitoes.

Examples one and two probably seem laughable to those of you convinced that evolution is the only answer while the idea of evolution seems comical to those of us who believe in a creator God.



00camper Offline
#40 Posted: Tue, Jan 6 2004, 8:51 AM EST
Joined: 07-11-2003
Posts: 2,326
Coda,

All objects in space have a gravitational field, even flat ones.
Cigarick Offline
#41 Posted: Tue, Jan 6 2004, 10:07 AM EST
Joined: 07-28-2002
Posts: 3,078
Evolution is supported by far more than 'a scientist noticing similarities,' including but not limited to archeology, anthropology, radiolgy, chemistry, geology, and biology.

The only people who call it a theory anymore are Christians.
patman Offline
#42 Posted: Tue, Jan 6 2004, 10:30 AM EST
Joined: 12-22-2003
Posts: 262
00camper,

Iam truly impressed...

Patman
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#43 Posted: Tue, Jan 6 2004, 10:45 AM EST
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
00camper

i kind of like "The Little Demon Theory"

the alien theory was well explained in "chariot of the gods" by Erich Von Daniken.

to think that we alone in the universe have intelligence and self awarness, is to push the bounds of ego.
00camper Offline
#44 Posted: Tue, Jan 6 2004, 12:39 PM EST
Joined: 07-11-2003
Posts: 2,326
RICKAMAVEN,
Thank you.

Actually the Little Demon Theory can be used to explain any phenomenon. For example most scientists believe that the heat from friction is caused by energy released from the wearing away of the two surfaces.

This is simply not true!

Crushing the bodies of little demons releases tremendous amounts of heat and rubbing any two objects together crushes billions of little demons...you get the idea.

The Little Demon Theory cannot be proved, nor can it be disproved, because little demons are invisible, they have no mass, they are able to move instantly from anywhere in the universe to any where else in the universe, and they communicate telepathically.
00camper Offline
#45 Posted: Tue, Jan 6 2004, 12:47 PM EST
Joined: 07-11-2003
Posts: 2,326
Patman,
Thank you, too. Don't be too impressed, though.

I simply believe that evolution is less than fact and there is no way to prove otherwise. There is no time stamp on the fossils or in the surrounding rock formations. There is no way to conclusively prove that the earth has circled the Sun 50 billion times. I choose to believe that God created the universe.


CWFoster Offline
#46 Posted: Tue, Jan 6 2004, 2:16 PM EST
Joined: 12-12-2003
Posts: 5,414
Another point to make is that LIVE oysters have been carbon dated to be several million years old! I also CHOOSE to beleive, I'm not too hung up on the way God did it, just assured that he did. Besides, if I CHOOSE to beleive in God, I'm not condenmed to perdition if I'm wrong. Can you say the same for belief in Charles Darwin?
coda Offline
#47 Posted: Tue, Jan 6 2004, 2:29 PM EST
Joined: 07-27-2003
Posts: 623
00camper,

"All objects in space have a gravitational field, even flat ones."

That's only the way some see it --- not me, not if I don't understand or accept gravity, in spite of evidence to the contrary. Maybe I choose to believe in something else (like little demons?) holding things to the flat surface. Maybe my folks taught me that all my life, I've even read about it myself, the thought is very comforting, and I have no urge to investigate any other explanation.

I do agree that we still, and should, call evolution a "theory" because, according to classic scientific method rules, it hasn't been proven, as you suggested. However, that does not mean that the concept can be summarily dismissed.

On the other hand, if a creator made us, it looks like he either 1) accomplished it through evolution or 2) made us in seven days and intentionally placed enormous amounts of misleading evidence to test our faiths. A result of the Fall from Grace, perhaps.

In a different but related thread, a forum member commented thusly on Rickamaven's views:
"The belief that there is no God requires a lot of faith, since it is impossible to prove."
I didn't quite get that remark. Neither existence nor nonexistence of a god has been proven (and don't just wave a book at me. I can quote "The Night Before Christmas to prove the existence of Santa Claus with equal effect).
coda Offline
#48 Posted: Tue, Jan 6 2004, 3:15 PM EST
Joined: 07-27-2003
Posts: 623
CWFoster:

With respect, we don't CHOOSE to believe anything. Not if it's an actual belief, and not merely pretense. We are compelled to believe or not, based on whatever we've experienced that has led us to our particular personal conclusions. We may CHOOSE to pretend many things, even to the point of trying to fool ourselves, but what we believe is undeniable and unescapable. Accepting our beliefs avoids a lot of neurosis.

I had been wondering if anyone would mention the "life insurance" aspect of believing in god. If that's the basis for a belief, then it's not belief, it's pretense, which wouldn't fool the one Being that matters. I suppose I would enjoy having a safety net for existence, but I don't. My most intense wishes for magical presents on Christmas morning if I'm a good boy would not make Santa real.
Cigarick Offline
#49 Posted: Tue, Jan 6 2004, 6:48 PM EST
Joined: 07-28-2002
Posts: 3,078
Pseudo-scientists, puh-LEEZE!

It is impossible to prove something doesn't exist. If you disagree with this, prove that there is not a tribe of invisible, microscopic pygmies living in your tennis shoes.

On the other hand, it is possible to prove something does exist: present it.
CWFoster Offline
#50 Posted: Tue, Jan 6 2004, 7:23 PM EST
Joined: 12-12-2003
Posts: 5,414
coda, We are all presented with the same gospels. One hopefully receives the 'leading' or 'conviction' of the Holy Ghost to make the decision wether to follow Christ or turn away from Him. I CHOSE to follow. Sometimes I don't follow as closely as I should, that's My fault, not His. I don't preach, because even though to hide behind a hipocrite you have to be smaller than him, I don't wish to have someone try to use me as thier excuse. I have my trials and others have thiers. Yes, the "life insurance aspect" is weak, and will not spare anyone, but if it causes some to seek, just a bit and they reach the point where they feel that leading, and have to make that chioce, then who cares what mechanism caused them to do that little seeking? "some planted and some watered, but God reaps the harvest" I think that's about how it goes, I'm a bit rusty.

I know Jesus loves me, His step-dad used to be a carpenter, and so was I, now I'm a sailor, and He picked up a quarter of his disciples off the waterfront. He picked a tax collector, and DARN if I don't work for the government! I may take a tongue in cheek look at faith once in awhile, but gospel means "GOOD NEWS" so have a cigar, and enjoy your blessings!
Users browsing this topic
Guest
2 Pages12>
Back to Top