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Gun Ownership Article
Sylance Offline
#1 Posted:
Joined: 06-19-2003
Posts: 592
I know I know.... another long cut and paste news article. But if you have any opinion on gun ownership, you'll probably find this interesting.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,107274,00.html

_______________________________________________________________________________________

People fear guns. Yet, while guns make it easier for bad things to happen, they also make it easier for people to protect themselves.

With the avalanche of horrific news stories about guns over the years, it's no wonder people find it hard to believe that, according to surveys (one I conducted for 2002 for my book, "The Bias Against Guns," and three earlier academic surveys by different researchers published in such journals as the Journal of Criminal Justice) there are about two million defensive gun uses (search) each year; guns are used defensively four times more frequently than they are to commit crimes.

The rebuttal to this claim always is: If these events were really happening, wouldn't we hear about them on the news? Many people tell me that they have never heard of an incident of defensive gun use. There is a good reason for their confusion. In 2001, the three major television networks -- ABC, CBS, and NBC -- ran 190,000 words' worth of gun-crime stories on their morning and evening national news broadcasts. But they ran not a single story mentioning a private citizen using a gun to stop a crime.

The print media was almost as biased: The New York Times ran 50,745 words on contemporaneous gun crimes, but only one short, 163-word story on a retired police officer who used his gun to stop a robbery. For USA Today, the tally was 5,660 words on gun crimes versus zero on defensive uses.

Just take some of the 18 defensive gun uses that I found covered by newspapers around the country during the first 10 days of December:

-- Little Rock, Ark: After the assailant attacked him and his son-in-law with a poker, a 64-year-old minister shot a man dead on church grounds. The attacker had engaged in a string of assaults in an apparent drug-induced frenzy.

-- Corpus Christi, Texas: A woman shot to death her ex-husband, who had broken into her house. The woman had a restraining order against the ex-husband.

-- Tampa Bay, Fla.: A 71-year-old man, Melvin Spaulding, shot 20-year-old James Moore in the arm as Moore and two friends were beating up his neighbor, 63-year-old George Lowe. Spaulding had a concealed weapons permit.

--Bellevue, Wash.: A man shot a pit bull that lunged to within a foot of him and his family. Police said the man's family had been repeatedly menaced in the past by the dog.

-- Jonesboro, Ga.: A father out walking with his 11-year-old daughter was attacked by an armed robber. The police say the father shot the attacker in self-defense and will not face charges.

-- Houston, Texas: Andrea McNabb shot two of the three men who tried to rob her plumbing business on the afternoon of Dec. 1.

-- Philadelphia, Pa: A pharmacy manager fatally shot one robber and wounded another after the robbers threatened to kill workers at the store. The wounded robber escaped.

Part of the reason defensive gun use isn't covered in the media may be simple news judgment. If a news editor faces two stories, one with a dead body on the ground and another where a woman brandished a gun and the attacker ran away, no shots fired, almost anyone would pick the first story as more newsworthy. In 2002, some 90 percent of the time when people used guns defensively, they stopped the criminals simply by brandishing the gun.

But that doesn't explain all the disparity in coverage. It doesn't, for example, explain why, in some heavily covered public middle and high school shootings, the media mentioned in only 1 percent or fewer of their stories that the attacks were stopped when citizens used guns to stop the attacks.

The unbalanced reporting is probably greatest in cases where children die from accidental gunshots fired by another child. Most people have seen the public-service ads showing the voices or pictures of children between the ages of four and eight, never over the age of eight, and the impression is that there is an epidemic of accidental deaths involving small children. The exaggerated media attention given these particularly tragic deaths makes these claims believable.

The debate over laws requiring that people lock up their guns in their home usually concentrates on the deaths of these younger children. The trigger and barrel locks mandated by these laws are often only considered reliable for preventing the access to guns by children under age 7.

The truth is that in 1999, for children whose ages correspond with the public service ads, 31 children under the age of 10 died from an accidental gunshot and only six of these cases appear to have involved another child under 10 as the culprit. Nor was this year unusual. Between 1995 and 1999, only five to nine cases a year involved a child wounding or killing another child with a gun. For children under 15, there were a total of 81 accidental gun deaths of all types in 1999. Any death is tragic, but it should be noted that more children under five drowned in bathtubs or plastic water buckets than from guns.

The gun deaths are covered extensively as well as prominently, with individual cases getting up to 88 separate news stories. In contrast, when children use guns to save lives, the event might at most get one brief mention in a small local paper. Yet these events do occur.

--In February, 2002, the South Bend, Indiana Tribune reported the story of an 11-year-old boy who shot and killed a man holding a box cutter to his grandmother's neck. Trained to use a firearm, the boy killed the assailant in one shot, even though the man was using his grandmother as a shield.

--In May, 2001 in Louisianna, a 12-year-old girl shot and killed her mother's abusive ex-boyfriend after he broke into their home and began choking her mother. The story appeared in the New Orleans Advocate.

--In January, 2001, in Angie, Louisianna, a 13 year-old boy stopped for burglars from entering his home by firing the family's shotgun, wounding one robber and scaring off the other three. The four men were planning on attacking the boy's mother--an 85-pound terminal cancer patient--in order to steal her pain medication.

As a couple of reporters told me, journalists are uncomfortable printing such positive gun stories because they worry that it will encourage children to get access to guns. The whole process snowballs, however, because the exaggeration of the risks--along with lack of coverage of the benefits--cements the perceived risks more and more firmly in newspaper editors and reporters minds. This makes them ever more reluctant to publish such stories.

While all this coverage affects the overall gun-control debate, it also directly shapes perceptions of proposed legislation. Take the upcoming debate over renewing the so-called assault-weapons ban. This past summer CNN repeatedly showed a news segment that starts off with a machine gun firing and claims that the guns covered by the ban do much more damage than other guns. CNN later attempted to clarify the segment by saying that the real problem was with the ammunition used in these guns. But neither of these points is true. The law does not deal at all with machine guns (though the pictures of machine guns sure are compelling)--and the "assault weapons" fire the same bullets at the same rate, and accomplish the exact same thing, as other semi-automatic guns not covered by the ban.

The unbalanced presentation dominates not just the media but also government reports and polling. Studies by the Justice and Treasury Departments have long evaluated just the cost guns impose on society. Every year, Treasury puts out a report on the top 10 guns used in crime, and each report serves as the basis for dozens of news stories. But why not also provide a report--at least once--on the top 10 guns used defensively? Similarly, numerous government reports estimate the cost of injuries from guns, but none measures the number of injuries prevented when guns are used defensively.

National polls further reinforce these biased perceptions. Not one of the national polls (as far as I was able to find) gave respondents an option to mention that gun control might actually be harmful. Probably the least biased polls still give respondents just two choices: supporting "tougher gun-control legislation to help in the fight against gun crime" or "better enforcement of current laws." Yet, both options ultimately imply that gun control is good.

But if we really want to save lives, we need to address the whole truth about guns--including the costs of not owning guns. We never, for example, hear about the families who couldn't defend themselves and were harmed because they didn't have guns.

Discussing only the costs of guns and not their benefits poses the real threat to public safety as people make mistakes on how best to defend themselves and their families.
RDC Offline
#2 Posted:
Joined: 01-21-2000
Posts: 5,874
Geee, where do I begin:-) I'll TRY to make it short.

F'k Hypocrites like Rosie O’Donnell who does not want anybody to own guns, except of course for her heavily armed body guards.

The media is about sensationalism and that is in part why you’ll only hear about splattered blood and not someone protecting themselves with a gun with out firing a shot.

The media is largely owned by the CNN’s of the world that would have us all unarmed.

If YOU or your loved one were in a store and an gunman walked in wanting to shoot everybody because he was strung out on drugs wouldn’t it give you peace of mind knowing that someone was standing next to you with a concealed hand gun ready to save your life?
Sylance Offline
#3 Posted:
Joined: 06-19-2003
Posts: 592
I totally agree. I myself have a concealed weapons permit and carry the majority of the time. I was totally surprised one day when a friend of my fiancé found out I was carrying. She said, “You carry? Cool, I feel safer now.”

I was surprised to hear this because the typical response I get is, “Why would you want to carry a gun?” I live in Arizona so I find this question quite interesting. It’s legal for anyone to carry open, and a 16-hour course will allow you to carry concealed. One look at any newspaper or evening news will answer the question for the need to carry a firearm.
rayder1 Offline
#4 Posted:
Joined: 06-02-2002
Posts: 2,226
You know Sylance, I've never understood the need to carry all the time. I understand when someone has a business and needs the permit to do cash drops and transport high dollar merchandise etc. Also bodyguards and other protective occupations have a need. Maybe those who are in witness protection as well.

When I was a rookie cop, I carried all the time. I have ankle holsters, belt clips, shoulder holsters. After a while all I did was worry if the gun showed, or if the gun was secure.

I realized that situations which present themselves that would require the possible use of a gun were far fewer than the times it would be in the way. After a few years of constant carry...I tapered off. Now, I hardly ever go anywhere that I pack.

I sometimes have one in my car of RV in a secured / locked place. If I need it in a hurry, I might be screwed. But if my kids want to tinker with it, they have no chance of getting it.

If a non law enforcement person has a need for concealed firearms, and their local sheriff see's fit to hand out a permit...so be it. I just haven't found a need. I have always lived in higher crime metropolitan or urban areas and have experienced very few circumstances where my cell phone didn't cover my butt better than my gun.
sherpamills Offline
#5 Posted:
Joined: 01-26-2001
Posts: 147
old saying "better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6"put a sign in your window "no guns here" i will keep my N.R.A. sticker.armed and dangerous i shoot skeet and trap/was high gun 4 years in a row in a black powder club/ also skilled with a bow, have thrown knifes for fun for several years,and not too bad with a blow gun.
Sylance Offline
#6 Posted:
Joined: 06-19-2003
Posts: 592
Quote from rayder1:
“I realized that situations which present themselves that would require the possible use of a gun were far fewer than the times it would be in the way.”

How does it get in the way? If I never have to pull the gun out, how does it hinder me in any way? Also, I carry not for my protection, but for the protection of my fiancé and for everyone around me. I’m a black belt in martial arts so I’m not so concerned about my own personal protection.

Quote from rayder1:
“I just haven't found a need. I have always lived in higher crime metropolitan or urban areas and have experienced very few circumstances where my cell phone didn't cover my butt better than my gun.”

To answer this comment I’ll leave you with an actual case. In New York, for example, the rule was set forth by the Court of Appeals in the case Riss v. New York: the government is not liable even for a grossly negligent failure to protect a crime victim.
In the Riss case, a young woman telephoned the police and begged for help because her ex-boyfriend had repeatedly threatened, "If I can't have you, no one else will have you, and when I get through with you, no-one else will want you." The day after she had pleaded for police protection, the ex-boyfriend threw lye in her face, blinding her in one eye, severely damaging the other, and permanently scarring her features. "What makes the City's position particularly difficult to understand," wrote a dissenting opinion, "is that, in conformity to the dictates of the law, Linda did not carry any weapon for self-defense. Thus, by a rather bitter irony she was required to rely for protection on the City of New York which now denies all responsibility to her."

Legal mumbo jumbo can be found here: http://www.healylaw.com/cases/riss.htm

Rayder1, this is not a personal attack… I enjoy debating. Would like to hear your comments on this.
eh3856 Offline
#7 Posted:
Joined: 07-27-2001
Posts: 258
Just my 2 cents. I have a permit to carry a concealed weapon,that I have had for over 20 years. I do not carry it all the time but when I am at my wifes store during the day I do always have it with me. I would really regret not having it the day some lo-life would come in to try to hurt my wife or hurt anyone in the store. To carry is a priveleage that was given to us by our constitution and I plan on exercising that right as much as possible.I too have trained in martial arts for many years and have my NRA decal on my back window of my truck...
rayder1 Offline
#8 Posted:
Joined: 06-02-2002
Posts: 2,226
I am not opposed to the carry of a firearm by qualified certified persons, including yourself, should you choose to.

I, for personal reasons, do not do so regularly. Yes it is a hinderance. It takes time to come to terms with it after the romance of carrying a gun is over (or maybe not). Maybe you aren't concerned about revealing it to the public. Where do you carry your gun? What do you carry? (Less than .38 or 9MM is a less effective stopper, so you have to up the ante on size a little for an effective tool.)
1.) Shoulder rig: cant take off your jacket
2.) Outside holster on belt? Gotta wear sweaters, jackets, gotta keep track of it all the time. Sticks in your side in theater seats, ball games etc.
3.) Ankle holster? Since bell bottoms, not very concealed. Also not very accessible. Hurts the ankle if you run with it. Bumps against stuff all the time.
4.) Inside waist band: My preferred way to carry. got to adjust the danged thing all the time. more difficult retention. Slightly more difficult to access than shoulder and side holster.
5.) Fanny pack: Hard to keep secured, difficult access, bulky. My most common way to carry off duty. But I have to constantly think about it.

You acually have to enjoy the carrying of a concealed weapon to do so all the time. That, in and of itself, is a privilege you have earned for some reason, but carrys a lot more responsibility than most people appreciate.

It also is a curious issue. Do you have a specific reason to need a gun all the time? Do you feel a little like a cop? Do you let it intentionally show a little from time to time? Do you find your hand brushing against it from time to time? Do you automatically reach for it if something gets a little scary?

You can say "no" to all of these, but reality proves otherwise. Just ask any cop here on this forum or anywhere. You carry it concealed, it makes you feel more powerful. Some get over it, some don't.

After 21 years of being a cop, I think I qualify and someone who knows what side the bread is buttered.

I have come across more people than not, who have concealed carry permits who, by that little piece of paper, akin themselves to be a cop. This may not be your circumstance, but there are many who feel that they are one step higher on the ladder than other civilians.

Your chances of using your gun to defend youself or your family is way less than your chances of using your gun, in a moment of opportunity, to try and take care of a situation where you and your family are not the victim. In that instance, "playing cop". It a real factor. You have to keep it in mind and weigh that as a possibility whenever you carry your weapon.

The situations you have provided are examples that are provided in the NRA magazine every month. They are rare examples. Out of 120 million people, they can find 10-12 instances a month where people have used a gun to defend their property, their person and their family.

The instance you provided where the woman was assaulted with lye. Yes she "could have" shot the guy. Did he give her a chance to defend herself or did he suprise her and toss the lye in he face? Had she had a gun in her hand, I'm afraid the result may have still been the same, except maybe she could have shot her gun at something...maybe even the bad guy.

Am I an authority on firearms. In law enforcement...yes. Am I against ownership of firearms by private persons? Not at all. Am I against concealed weapon permits? No...but I feel significant training should accompany all permits. I am not judging you or your choice, if you have a permit, then someone in power thinks you need one. As a cop, I always raise an eyebrow when I come across a concealed carry permit holder and wonder why.
Cigarick Offline
#9 Posted:
Joined: 07-28-2002
Posts: 3,078
I'd rather have the cops catch me with one than the bad guys catch me without one.
JonR Offline
#10 Posted:
Joined: 02-19-2002
Posts: 9,740
I feel anyone schooled in small-arms and who is mentally competent should be allowed to carry a concealed firearm much like myself. Also anyone that says different I'll put a couple well placed bullets in their head. LMAO IBMU JonR
CWFoster Offline
#11 Posted:
Joined: 12-12-2003
Posts: 5,414
I joined the military relitivly late in life, at the age of 33. Prior to that, I was a gunsmith off an on for about fifteen years (Trained at Colorado School of Trades, Lakewood Co.) I have worked in gunshops where I was required to carry, and others where we felt no need. I have found myself on more than one occaision in a situation away from work where I wished I had a gun, or was glad I had one. Perhaps concealed carry is a privilege, but the right to "keep and bear" is not. It is a right, guaranteed by the Constitution of The United States of America. Our founding fathers didn't allow us this to protect ourselves from the bad guys. At that time, that was a no-brainer. Most States REFUSED to ratify the Constitution until that guaratee was made. Our founding fathers were AFRAID of the very government THEY were creating, and they wanted to ensure that thier childrens childrens children, would have the ability to overthrow it if it ever became opressive. My greatest fear has never been the sword, but the pen. I have noticed an assault on the public PERCEPTION of firearms for at least thirty years. CNN's tricks are not the first, or the most ludicrous. I remember seeing a news report on a local news program once that was about a victim being stabbed to death. In the background was a graphic of a hand brandishing a revolver! Subtle and subliminal teeth to erode away the comfort of the American people with that which was guaranteed to ensure thier freedom. By who and for what purpose? I hate thinking about it, because I almost get into a "conspiracy theory" mindset. But you have to wonder.
Sylance Offline
#12 Posted:
Joined: 06-19-2003
Posts: 592
rayder1,

You bring up some interesting points, but let's use the same logic. I wear a seatbelt. Do I feel like a racecar driver when I wear one? Do I feel sexy knowing that racecar drivers wear seatbelts just like me? Why do I wear one if I've never been in an accident? They are uncomfortable to wear, but yet I still put it on because of the possibility of an accident.

Also, you make it sound like playing "cop" is a bad thing. I believe it's my responsibility as a man to protect those around me... therefor I train with my firearm. You may say that's playing "cop" but I say it's my responsibility as a man.
rayder1 Offline
#13 Posted:
Joined: 06-02-2002
Posts: 2,226
Apples and oranges. Your seatbelt comparison is a weak example. Now if you said: "If I lowered my car, put special wheels and tires on it, air dams and spoilers on it and a loud exhaust, am I going to pretend I am a race car driver?" In that, the answer would be "No" if you are responsible and practical about it. But in some cases the opposite is true.

Same applies to carrying a concealed firearm. The carry of concealed firearms has historically been the privelege of law enforcement and military in certain applications. And secondarily some civilians given the privelege to do so. Otherwise it is not normally allowed. When you carry a concealed firearm, you are in a rare position. The concealed weapon permit does not grant the bearer to enforce the law with the firearm. In most places it specifies when,where and why.

There are many instances where helping out may have disasterous results. But then again, I know of some successful interventions by armed civilians.

Like I said. I am not against concealed permit carry. I have run into a number of permit holders who feel rather empowered by the privelege. I am not thinking you are one of the wannabees. Just stating that there are many who are.



Robby Offline
#14 Posted:
Joined: 10-30-2002
Posts: 5,067
Gun owner, not gun carrier... But to each his own.
Robby Offline
#15 Posted:
Joined: 10-30-2002
Posts: 5,067
If I wanted to herf with Rick, I think he would still frisk me ;-)
CWFoster Offline
#16 Posted:
Joined: 12-12-2003
Posts: 5,414
Case in point- There didn't used to be a permit to carry concealed in the State of Texas. Long before there was the Branch Davidians there was a lone loony-tune who crashed his car into a steakhouse in Waco, and calmly got out and began shooting the patrons in there. He killed 15 or 20 people before some police officers showed up to sort him out. There was a woman there who had a handgun in her purse, but left it in her car, because she had no legal right to carry it into the restaurant. The price for compliance with the statute was to watch her father be cold bloodedly gunned down before her eyes, and be able to do nothing to stop it. There was a similar story about a woman who had a gun in here desk at an office in St. Louis, which was the site of another employee "going postal" and as soon as she found out what was going on, locked her door (so she thought) and went to retrieve her weapon. The knob was turned the wrong way, so the door was not locked, and the killer shot her in the back as she went towards her desk. Funny, in the few interviews with her that got aired/published she said that she was approached dozens of times for an interview, but when she brought up that she was going for her own gun, and might likely have ended the shooting spree before another ten people were shot, the editors lost interest in her viewpoint. At what point do you stop protecting the lives of innocent people who are being threatened in your vacinity, and start "playing cop"??? I don't have a permit to carry concealed, but I've thought about getting one. Why? I don't know, but do you know when Noah built the Ark? BEFORE it rained! I am military, and my personal choice for a sidearm right now is the same thing I carry on watch. Beretta 92F 9MM pre-ban magazines (15 rnds)
contendertotes Offline
#17 Posted:
Joined: 11-12-2003
Posts: 784
Not going to quote the constitution or any amendment's , but i've lived with gun's my whole life with hunting for food ( i eat what i kill )and i do get enjoyment out of being able to just take off out into the woods and take all day hunting if i want. now i know you are talking about "handgun's" mainly but once those gun hating "we-want-them-all-band" group eliminates even one area of gun ownership.......they won't stop till were all unarmed !!! i like having a gun around ! i can hunt bow also but my automatic is a heck-of-a-lot better at taking a target down. and remember......"Guns don't kill people , Bullets kill people" !! N.R.A. ! ;-)
CWFoster Offline
#18 Posted:
Joined: 12-12-2003
Posts: 5,414
watch it, they've made a stab or two at banning ammunition
contendertotes Offline
#19 Posted:
Joined: 11-12-2003
Posts: 784
When the cap's run out , it's not much more than a real fancy hammer ! people will be arming thierselves with wristrocket slingshots ( of which mine still comes in handy every once in awhile )......curb the dog !!
cayman2b Offline
#20 Posted:
Joined: 05-19-2000
Posts: 1,734
I own 14 or so guns and I'm a respectable, responsible,
adult.. whats the problem with that..?

Dont get me started.. I shy away from the misc. board.
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