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Appears nowhere in the U.S. Constitution.

The founding fathers intended the separation of church and state to inhibit the government from sanctioning one religeon over another. It was NEVER meant to inhibit the PEOPLE from being able to pray, or demonstrate their faith (even on government property).

please read my post, and do NOT read intent that is not there.

1) Some kids have lost the opportunity to speak at commencment addresses because they let it be known that they were going to thank God for the privledges thety've had, and for guidance in the future. Reason given, separation of church and state (can't "preach" on school property) right lost: 1st amendment, right of free speech. I could cite a dozen more examples, do you really want to read every one of them?

2) I said the government (and it's representatives) are FORBIDDEN to promote one religeon over another. It is wrong for a judge to place the ten commandments on display in the courthouse, but it is EQUALLY wrong to forbid the lawful congregation on public property (the courthouse lawn for instance) of private citizens to put on a nativity scene for Christmas. If the Buddhists want to do something simillar, they should have the same right!

I don't want an atheist teaching my kids about Jesus, or about relativistic moralism either! NOR do I want Jerry Fallwell telling me that smoking is a sin! But if you were praying in school, and weren't stopped, it's only because someone (the ACLU) didn't hear you. Read the Book of Daniel, and see what he did when told not to pray to his God. The fastest way to get christians to pray is tell them not to! :)

gto, are yu trying to make my point, or yours? A school is an official outlet. The kids should be allowed to practice their religeon, but NOT have it taught to them there. As I recall, the program involved had students adopt muslim names, and study jihadist (Wahabi) writings, and "learn to identify" with the nice, friendly arab cultures. No mention was ever made to them that I ever heard of, that Saudi children are not only not required to learn how to identify with those of Western values, but the teaching of ANYTHING besides Islam is a criminal offense. During the first Gulf War, we could not even administer the last rites to mortally woulded troops while they were on Saudi soil (they graciously "compromised and would allow it in a helicopter in a hover ABOVE Saudi soil) As both a christian, and ESPECIALLY as an AMERICAN I get SICK of being told how intolerant my viewpoints are and I should keep them to myself;while those who have differing viewpoints are given a soapbax, and a boost to step up on it, and a megaphone, to announce what a hypocrite anyone who calls themselves a christian is. What's up with that?????

CWF: when i was in high school, i was the president of our Teens For Christ extra-curricular group. same as any other group, we were allowed to meet on school grounds after school, before school, or at lunch. that group is still there, still same rules. though other groups have been added (they, too, have the same rules we did), that's not in any way stopped the TFC group (or the Fellowship of Christian Athletes) from meeting.

i can pray without moving my lips. in fact, weren't christians told that it was better to pray in private? that if we prayed in public, we would get our reward in public, but if we prayed in private, our reward would be from god, not man?

i do understand your concerns; i do. and i'm not trying to take anything away from your views. it's just been my experience that, as a christian, my freedom to pray in public has never been in question.

for the record, nothing stopped me from bowing my head and praying -- silently or aloud -- before a test, saying grace before lunch, etc. nothing stops others from doing so now. what they do not (and imo should not) have the right to do is make everyone ELSE be included in my praying.

antonio

In this Antonio, we are in COMPLETE agreement! I am just aggrivated over the people like Madeline Murray O'hare, and many others who ahave never been pressured to do anything who want to make all the rest of us not have access to public property for Nativity scenes, ect. I have yet to see even a "live" nativity scene where they were preaching hellfire or brimstone, and the only thing that might be construed as pressure is a sign inviting anyone to attend the church sponsoring the display. BEFORE anyone goes off on me! I am NOT advocating the access be granted ONLY to christian groups! BTW, there was a young lady who gave a convocation prayer before the football games played by her high school team, no one was told they HAD to pray, it wasn't forced, but the Courts forced her to stop, or if she wouldn't forced the school district to stop allowing her to use the PA system. There is also the question of witnessing. If you are the kind of person I think we all try to be, and you want to give God the credit (anything in me wothwhile, is just the Christ in me, cuz ME is a pretty mean character) You have to tell people who you represent, otherwise, yes, they think it's you, and you get the credit of men, but lose the credit from God, for taking the credit due Him. I hope this clarifies my views. I don't think the Christian viewponit should be the only one presented, but I don't see the ACLU going after the Buddists, the Hare Krishnas, or the Moslems. Check out how many times they've sought injunctions against Christians, and tell me we are not being targeted.

the reason the aclu goes after christians may be the same reason i find difficulty dealing with christians in both my personal and business life.

christians never shut up about their religeon.

i'm glad christians find peace and comfort in jesus and his teachings. but the inherent nature of go forth and spread the word is annoying to everyone else.

all the christians i have met and all the christians that post do the same thing. they tell you they are christians and go on about it endlessly.

why was it necesary for warner to tell the world that he was successful after the superbowl game and thank, out loud, "his personal savior. jesus". his god knows he is thankful. does his god require the spoken word in order to be satisfied.

i've been in restaurants where people bow their heads for a moment or two. i know they are praying and i see nothing wrong with what they are doing. if however, they have the need to speak out loud, what ever they are praying, they are in my space.

what other religeon other then christianity has the constant need to tell everyone else about the benifits of their belief system, which is if you accept christ as your personal savior, you will be saved.

i guess your definition of saved means, after you die you will go to heaven and not hell.

you are so involved in your beliefs, to your own good fortune, that you are almost required to spread the word. if you would just keep it to and among yourselves, no one would be telling you to shut up.
your god knows what's in your hearts.

does your god need the constant reenforcement of your belief or DO YOU.

nothing i have written is meant to demean any one's beliefs. i am simply trying to explain why the people that do not believe in jesus as their personal savior find you boring and annoying.

Rick- I'm sure you've noticed that unless the topic has to do with religeon, I don't go waving my faith aroundconstantly. I realize that you and others may get bored by it. BUT why does the ACLU protect the 1st Amendment rights of the KKK and the American Nazi Party to march in Skokie Ill (a predominantly Jewish community) where there is virtually NO ONE who wants to hear their hate rhetoric, but those "boring" people seem to have no standing under the same 1st Amendment? Why doesn't the ACLU want to protect THEIR rights? HMMMMMMM? All I'm suggesting is a little balance. At least the Evangelicals aren't advocating violence against those they don't agree with.

nothing i have written is meant to demean any one's beliefs

RICK SAYS: i find difficulty dealing with christians in both my personal and business life.

christians never shut up about their religeon.

all the christians i have met and all the christians that post do the same thing. they tell you they are christians and go on about it endlessly

I SAY: i find difficulty dealing with jews in both my personal and business life.

jews never shut up about their religeon.


all the jews i have met and all the jews that post do the same thing. they tell you they are jews and go on about it endlessly.


BUT IM THE BIGOT NAZI

65gtoman

do you understand the word shmuck?

65gtoman

yes and i am not. if you percieve me as a bigot, you can deal with your own misguided judgement.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=bigot

One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

on another board, someone dared to mention that he had a very negative view of jews. in his view, jews were snotty and arrogant, had no sense of humor, yadda yadda, on and on.

a lot of people blasted him for this and called him an anti-semite.

after the initial name-calling, folks realized that he was talking about his PERSONAL experience with jews he had met and known. from there, a couple of jewish folks on the board (they hadn't announced this before, but it was never really relevant before) "came out" so to speak as jews. the "bigot" guy realized, "oh, hey, so i DO know jews who are not like what i said."

problem solved, minds opened, we all sang "kumbayah."

as a christian of jewish descent (for what that's worth), i'll say this: if rick's saying "this is what i've observed personally about christians," that means one thing and is not, imo, "bigotted."

if he means "all christians" are this that and the other, then yeah, imo, that is bigotted.

either way, i hope, rick, that you have experiences with christians that are different that the experiences you mentioned.

as a christian, i TOO have found that SOME christians get in-your-face about religion, go on and on about it and will flat out call you everything but a good man in their efforts to condemn you to hell. i don't think that makes me "bigotted" towards christians, though. do you?

GTO: re the 14 words -- you may be jewish, yes, but then again there are "jews for jesus" out there; i'd not be surprised to find "white power" jews in the world. :)

(btw -- no, i'm not a messianic jew)

antonio

Rick,

"And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen. (Matthew 28:18-20)"

We Christians were given the "Great Commission" to "spread the gospel to the ends of the Earth." My greatest shortcoming as a Christian is not doing that enough. Sorry if you're offended... and in our free society, you are not required to listed... but, by our beliefs, we are doing it for your own good. :)

Cheers,

grond

grond: but would you agree that there are more ways to spread that good word than accosting random people and demanding to know their relationship to god?

i subscribe to the old song, "and they'll know we are christians by our love, by our love..." :)

what coda said

Dayum DB, you hit my point on the nail! :)