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EI Offline
#1 Posted: Tue, Apr 6 2004, 9:00 AM EST
Joined: 06-29-2002
Posts: 5,069
Liberals claim President Bush shouldn't have started this war.
They complain about his prosecution of it. One liberal recently claimed Bush was the worst president in U.S history.

Let's clear up one point: President Bush didn't start the war on terror.
Try to remember, it was started by terrorists BEFORE 9/11. Let's look at the "worst" president and mismanagement claims.

FDR led us into World War II.
Germany never attacked us: Japan did.
From 1941-1945, 450,000 lives were lost, an average of 112,500 per year.



Truman finished that war and started one in Korea.
North Korea never attacked us.
From 1950-1953, 55,000 lives were lost, an average of 18,333 per year.



John F. Kennedy started the Vietnam conflict in 1962.
Vietnam never attacked us.
Johnson turned Vietnam into a quagmire.
From 1965-1975, 58,000 lives were lost, an average of 5,800 per year.



Clinton went to war in Bosnia without UN or French consent.
Bosnia never attacked us.
He was offered Osama bin Laden's head on a platter three times by Sudan and did nothing.
Osama has attacked us on multiple occasions.
Over 2,900 lives lost on 9/11.



In the two years since terrorists attacked us, President Bush has liberated two countries,
crushed the Taliban, crippled al-Qaida, put nuclear inspectors in Lybia,
Iran and North Korea without firing a shot, captured a terrorist who slaughtered 300,000 of his own people.
We lost 600 soldiers, an average of 300 a year.
Bush did all this abroad while not allowing another terrorist attack at home.

Worst president in history? Come on!

The Democrats are complaining about how long the war is taking, but...

It took less time to take Iraq than it took Janet Reno to take the Branch Davidian compound. That was a 51 day operation.

We've been looking for evidence of chemical weapons in Iraq for less time than it took Hillary Clinton to find the Rose Law Firm billing records.

It took less time for the 3rd Infantry Division and the Marines to destroy the Medina Republican Guard than it took Teddy Kennedy to call the police after his Oldsmobile sank at Chappaquiddick.

It took less time to take Iraq than it took to count the votes in Florida!!!!
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#2 Posted: Tue, Apr 6 2004, 9:18 AM EST
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
EI

i liked your pot stirring. hard to dispute some of what you said. i'll leave it at that.
Sonny_LSU Offline
#3 Posted: Tue, Apr 6 2004, 9:27 AM EST
Joined: 11-21-2002
Posts: 1,835
...ok.....this was already posted and I will paste the same reply:

"OK, one misc. rebutle (I'm too tired to push a rope):

The Axis powers were spreading through Europe invading everyone surrounding them (specifically Poland). Now, the first Gulf War Saddam was invading Kuwait, so, justifiably, we stepped in......who was he invading/threatening this time?


BTW, what makes you so sure we are not headed for a quagmire this time? We are far from pulling our troops out.

Also, there are MANY factors you fail to mention in siting death tolls. One of monumental effect is technology. Our ability to fight from a distance with laser-guided bombs, etc. has greatly reduced the death toll numbers, NOT BUSH'S chivalry and prowess.

You guys gripe about how the Librals spin everything, yet you are doing exactly that in this post."


If you search for the thread title "war" you'll see other comments.
Cigarick Offline
#4 Posted: Tue, Apr 6 2004, 9:44 AM EST
Joined: 07-28-2002
Posts: 3,078
Those look more like facts to me.
xibbumbero Offline
#5 Posted: Tue, Apr 6 2004, 10:29 AM EST
Joined: 01-25-2002
Posts: 12,535
Oh yeah...well Lincoln started a war here in the US,so there! X :~)
THL Offline
#6 Posted: Tue, Apr 6 2004, 11:43 AM EST
Joined: 10-22-2002
Posts: 3,044
EI, you can go back to Teddy Roosevelt. The U.S. has sent troops into foreign SOVEREIGN countries many more times than is widely known. Woody Wilson alone sent troops into Nicaraugua, Haiti(2-3 times), Panama, Cuba, and at least 10(some sources say 12) times into Mexico! Hell, we invaded Russia in 1917! The U.S. has a long tradition in this regard.
428cj Offline
#7 Posted: Tue, Apr 6 2004, 12:25 PM EST
Joined: 04-26-2003
Posts: 741
Sonny, you are a fine representative of the Left: "BTW, what makes you so sure we are not headed for a quagmire this time?"
Exactly, even if something is the right thing to do, we should NEVER do it IF it might not go PERFECTLY.
Is that really what you're saying? I can't imagine it is, but who knows.
428cj Offline
#8 Posted: Tue, Apr 6 2004, 12:29 PM EST
Joined: 04-26-2003
Posts: 741
Forgot to mention, this action in Iraq MUST have been the right thing to do. Remember back when Clinton was in office (shiver), he, Gore, and most of the liberals agreed a regime change in Iraq was imperative to a more stable Middle East? Remember when even they were convinced that action MUST be taken to help the Iraqi's and their neighbors?
No, you don't remember? Well, neither do they it seems. Thank goodness for public record...

Not an attack here, just a statement.
Sonny_LSU Offline
#9 Posted: Wed, Apr 7 2004, 5:14 AM EST
Joined: 11-21-2002
Posts: 1,835
first, a quagmire initiated under false pretenses and lies is what I am referring to. The man lied so he could go into Iraq and a quagmire.

All this crap about liberating the Iraqi people...blah blah blah!!!!! Where were you guys when the genocide in Africa was going on years ago?? See, you use this arguement when it suits you!

"WHERE ARE THE WMDs?"

"uhhhhhh.....but......uhhhhhhh....GW has freed the poor innocent people of Iraq! YEA! That's it!"

"WHERE ARE THE WMDs?"

"well.....mmmm....well.......uhhhhhhh......he saved the Iraqi people of years of oppression! YEA! That's it!"

"OK, SCOOTER. WHY WERE YOU NOT EXPRESSING THIS HUMANITARIAN SENTIMENT IN PAST YEARS IN OTHER AREAS OF THE WORLD?"

"......."

"HELLO?"

"....'cause GW wasn't president yet!"

"EXACTLY!"

Now, don't blow smoke about Clinton and Iraq.....did he invade under a cloak of fabrications? NO!
He did not attack Iraq, so how in the world do you use this as an arguement???? I don't get it.
EI Offline
#10 Posted: Wed, Apr 7 2004, 5:28 AM EST
Joined: 06-29-2002
Posts: 5,069
Thats the problem Sonny, You just don't get it
Sonny_LSU Offline
#11 Posted: Wed, Apr 7 2004, 6:42 AM EST
Joined: 11-21-2002
Posts: 1,835
...no, I don't get a case of the dumbass often...
fritzthetiger Offline
#12 Posted: Wed, Apr 7 2004, 6:44 AM EST
Joined: 04-03-2004
Posts: 314
EI:

What more can I add? Brilliant defense.
Fritz :-)
Sonny_LSU Offline
#13 Posted: Wed, Apr 7 2004, 6:49 AM EST
Joined: 11-21-2002
Posts: 1,835
ok, seriously, please explain to me what I don't get......if you can do this, THEN your defense is brilliant. However, until you can do this, a one line rebutle is signs of surrender (this includes you to fat cat)
fritzthetiger Offline
#14 Posted: Wed, Apr 7 2004, 6:52 AM EST
Joined: 04-03-2004
Posts: 314
Sonny:

Fat Cat?? Huh?? My response was just that, a response to EI, NOT a rebuttle to you. BTW it's 'too' not 'to'
Fritz
PS I still don't get the fat cat remark, please explain. Thanks.
Fritz
Sonny_LSU Offline
#15 Posted: Wed, Apr 7 2004, 6:58 AM EST
Joined: 11-21-2002
Posts: 1,835
you don't need to explain gammar to me as I have an English degree in addition to my other degrees. I reserve the right to be a bit dull on grammar when conversing on an internet board.

Now, the fat cat comment was meant as a fun jab at you, and you did get it, otherwise you wouldn't have responded to it.

Ok, back to the issue. Fritz, please present a case in prose that would back-up EI's one-liner, since you apparently feel the same sentiment as he in regards to my comments. Translated: Bring it! Don't sing it!
fritzthetiger Offline
#16 Posted: Wed, Apr 7 2004, 7:11 AM EST
Joined: 04-03-2004
Posts: 314
Sonny:
Sorry about the abrasive stuff, I get heated when I discuss politics. I'm a fat-cat because of supply-side economics and have made my clients $$$$ because of this as well. I don't feel I need to add more to EI's response..."don't fix it lest it's broke." If you want a particular defense or opinion just say so, I'll be glad to debate w/ you. But again sorry that I lost my temper (haven't had a cigar for 3 days)

Fritz
EI Offline
#17 Posted: Wed, Apr 7 2004, 7:12 AM EST
Joined: 06-29-2002
Posts: 5,069
Some people are educated way beyond their inteligence.

This is like trying to teach a pig to sing
It is a waste of time and annoys the pig

I think thats 3 lines but not having a degree in math I may be off by a couple of numbers
Sonny_LSU Offline
#18 Posted: Wed, Apr 7 2004, 7:28 AM EST
Joined: 11-21-2002
Posts: 1,835
"Some people are educated way beyond their inteligence. "

EI, I'd gladly match my "stupidity" with yours any day. You speak with an uneducated tongue, sir. You and 65gto must be in the same bowling league.
Sonny_LSU Offline
#19 Posted: Wed, Apr 7 2004, 7:32 AM EST
Joined: 11-21-2002
Posts: 1,835
Fritz, I totally understand. Ya' know.....no matter how sharp we would present our case, neither of us will jump ship. So, with that in mind, truce.

But, that doesn't apply to you, EI......see, I think it could be fun to try and teach you to sing.
EI Offline
#20 Posted: Wed, Apr 7 2004, 7:42 AM EST
Joined: 06-29-2002
Posts: 5,069
I thought LSU's mascot was a tiger
But I seem to have gotten your goat

Anything else in the way of a reply would prove my porcine analogy.

But feel free to correct my grammar professor.

Yawnnnnnnnn time for my cookies and nap before recess
and fingerpainting

428cj Offline
#21 Posted: Wed, Apr 7 2004, 7:52 AM EST
Joined: 04-26-2003
Posts: 741
Wow Sonny, amazing defenses (diverting to other topics, the left should be proud). And to another point I love how people from your 'side' have to get angry, raise their voices and attack others when you can't strengthen your own point.
About the wmd. So now, since you know they're not there and never have been do you agree that your beloved Clinton and UN had lied about Iraq having them too? After all they believed without a doubt that the weapons were present. So they were just as full of lies as Bush is now I guess. Or is there a different standard as related to Bush (it COULDN'T be, could it????)? Just wondering. I guess it was all lies about him using wmds in Iran and on his own people. Do you know how deep the lies go?
Really, I'm interested in the facts that you have. Please explain. Please answer this, don't divert your answer to another topic or other people. You can do it, I know you can!
I'm well edumacated too and eagerly await your facts.
Sonny_LSU Offline
#22 Posted: Wed, Apr 7 2004, 9:24 AM EST
Joined: 11-21-2002
Posts: 1,835
LOL...EI, now here sing along with me.....


428, did Clinton invade Iraq under false pretenses resulting in 600+ deaths of our beloved service men and women? No. He did not, thus I will not elaborate/banter with you any further. BTW, I am not angry whilest posting just shaking the tree so to speak. And, the educated thing stems from an issue where you were not concerned, but, hey, good for you ol' chap on being able to walk and chew bubblegum at the same time.

Ok, next monkey with the long tail! LOL
428cj Offline
#23 Posted: Wed, Apr 7 2004, 9:55 AM EST
Joined: 04-26-2003
Posts: 741
Ok Sonny, I appreciate your response. I see you don't want to answer the questions. That's fine, each to their own.
And as to my education, I've NEVER claimed to be able to walk and chew gum. At the same time?! Come on now, I DO have my limitations. Haha.
Sonny_LSU Offline
#24 Posted: Wed, Apr 7 2004, 10:32 AM EST
Joined: 11-21-2002
Posts: 1,835
me too......I have gotten the chewing and sitting thing down though ;)

RICKAMAVEN Offline
#25 Posted: Wed, Apr 7 2004, 10:55 AM EST
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
EI, Sonny_LSU

i don't care who started it, you are both guilty. now go to your rooms for a time out,

why are you attacking each other personally because you disagree. you are suppossed to disagree on many things.

any personal attacks that need to be made should be directed at me. i'm the trouble maker and i'll take you both on with one hand tied behind my back and standing on one leg.
bloody spaniard Offline
#26 Posted: Wed, Apr 7 2004, 11:08 AM EST
Joined: 03-14-2003
Posts: 43,802
^ LOL

You sound like a one-legged man ready to enter an ass-kicking contest (in a round room)!

blood
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#27 Posted: Wed, Apr 7 2004, 11:16 AM EST
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
fritzthetiger

you should be proud of Sonny_LSU's remark. if i am not mistaken he is a lefty whereas EI is a righty.
sometimes it get's confusing.

usually the rightys use nicknames to attempt to make you less than you are or rather make them more than they are. sort of like little w nicknaming as many people as he can and getting pissed the other day in an interview when the reporter addressed him as sir. he asked the reporter who he was talking to and answered only when the reporter addressed him as mr president, as though he was a real one.

these little moments define who you are when no one is looking. that is the second time i used that phrase and i like it better each time.

it's not considered cool to correct spelling or use of words and you did miss the first mispelling of grammer anyway.

how much do you weigh? i'm 5'1" and weighed 230 pounds before my surgery. my waist was probably more inches then my height. i'm down to 195 and looking mighty trim. i even bought a great pair on emma peel type pants at walmart, you know the kind with zippers everywhere, and i look forward to getting it higher then mid thigh in the near future.

i hope this finds you and your family in good health.

very truly yours,
rickamaven
EI Offline
#28 Posted: Wed, Apr 7 2004, 11:29 AM EST
Joined: 06-29-2002
Posts: 5,069
Rick 5'1"
is that a misprint.. you look taller in your pictures
xibbumbero Offline
#29 Posted: Wed, Apr 7 2004, 11:35 AM EST
Joined: 01-25-2002
Posts: 12,535
Rick stands on his toes when taking a pic. X
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#30 Posted: Wed, Apr 7 2004, 11:35 AM EST
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
428cj

i almost forgot about you. let me do a quick reread.

oh yes. how do you know Sonny_LSU loved clinton? i don't see any reference to clinton.

the phrase wmd is entirely over used. saddam gassed a group of people he didn't like. i believe we gave him the gas or the fixins when we liked iraq and didn't like iran.

good or bad, we did carpet bomb berlin and used the first and second atomic bombs on civilians. doesn't that make us the purveyors of wmd.

i can't chew gum, full plates, but i smoke a cigar, drink my coffee and type nasty to remarks all at the same time and still have time to occassionally scratch my ass.
428cj Offline
#31 Posted: Wed, Apr 7 2004, 11:59 AM EST
Joined: 04-26-2003
Posts: 741
Congratulations Rick, looks like you have a lot to be proud of.
I was only trying to ask some questions, but no one wants to answer them, no big deal really. I'm used to it.
fritzthetiger Offline
#32 Posted: Wed, Apr 7 2004, 12:31 PM EST
Joined: 04-03-2004
Posts: 314
Hi Rick:

I'm into bodybuilding (natural). I'm 5'10" 247lbs. I have a 56" chest 28" waist. My guns are 22" and my calves are 28". So yes, I"m big but not over-fat. I am a conservative and a member of the Bush leadership reelection team. I correct spelling on occasion because it's a good habit to have, and I don't mind criticism; anyone who posts here is big enough to handle it. Nothing worse than being PC. Anyway I hope you are well too.

With felicitous greetings,
Fritz
Sonny_LSU Offline
#33 Posted: Wed, Apr 7 2004, 12:55 PM EST
Joined: 11-21-2002
Posts: 1,835
DAMN! fritz is a lifter.....I must now retract my earlier aggressions towards you as I am also into weightlifting extensively and actually love it more than cigars. Alas, we will agree to disagree.





E-Chick Offline
#34 Posted: Wed, Apr 7 2004, 1:14 PM EST
Joined: 06-15-2002
Posts: 4,877
Politics???

WTF???


I thought this was about some type of instrument to use to help stir the pot...uh, like when you're trying to dry it out...my bad...


Oh, never mind!!!


:)

You all know where I stand politically......Marla
fritzthetiger Offline
#35 Posted: Wed, Apr 7 2004, 2:52 PM EST
Joined: 04-03-2004
Posts: 314
Mey Marla:

Where do you stand (since I'm new). Just curious

Fritz
PS Great picture
428cj Offline
#36 Posted: Wed, Apr 7 2004, 4:05 PM EST
Joined: 04-26-2003
Posts: 741
Cool Fritz and Sonny, good to know you two are 'brothers of the iron'. If it gets real ugly here we could always start throwing plates around or something. Haha.
bassdude Offline
#37 Posted: Wed, Apr 7 2004, 4:27 PM EST
Joined: 01-13-2004
Posts: 8,871
I really try to saty out of these but I have one question.

Sonny, do you believe that Iraq never had WMD? Do you believe they never buried aircraft? Do you believe they did not have ammo dumps the size of schools?

No argument just curious.

oh by the way folks I believe Sonny is a republican that just hates Bush. Sonny degrees are not a sign of intelligence. Show me the MENSA.

Fritz that's pretty impressive. I have never been able to hit a 22 inch bicep. What's your bench?
bassdude Offline
#38 Posted: Wed, Apr 7 2004, 5:35 PM EST
Joined: 01-13-2004
Posts: 8,871
Sonny can you post on this thread? I am curious.

http://www.cigarbid.com/...ageDisplay=0000000021630
Sonny_LSU Offline
#39 Posted: Thu, Apr 8 2004, 4:44 AM EST
Joined: 11-21-2002
Posts: 1,835
Tony, it's simple. They have not found ANY proof of the reason our people are dying over there AND the intelligence used was not correct. Hypotheticals (i.e. "do you believe the never had WMD?") can be molded to fit anybody's cause; however, we are to deal with the current issues and they don't help Mr. Bush. I am not supporting Clinton or any past leadership, rather I am looking at what has and is occurring today.

So, how much do bench fritz?
bassdude Offline
#40 Posted: Thu, Apr 8 2004, 5:19 AM EST
Joined: 01-13-2004
Posts: 8,871
Fritz has body builder numbers.
Sonny I believe has power lifter size.
I have not had a 28 inch waste since grade school.
Even in the military I stayed at a trim 265 but the waist was 38 inches.

Thread jack off.

Sonny you did not answer any of the questions. I do not dispute your last paragraph just wanted to know if you do or do not believe what I asked.
Sonny_LSU Offline
#41 Posted: Thu, Apr 8 2004, 6:22 AM EST
Joined: 11-21-2002
Posts: 1,835
ok. yes. I believe they had them and USED them. But, I ask you this: did Saddam pose an imminent threat with existing WMDs?
Sonny_LSU Offline
#42 Posted: Thu, Apr 8 2004, 6:30 AM EST
Joined: 11-21-2002
Posts: 1,835
OH YEA, non-political side topic.

some people are just thick-waisted by nature....Magnus ver Magussen (sp.?) is 6'2" - 286# with a 42" waist and I dare say he is in great shape for a big man, not to mention insanely strong. I'm 6'3" 280# and have a 40" waist, but for what I am into, it's all good. The biggest my arms have ever been is 20 1/2", but I'm not looking for ballooned bis (though I do think 22" are dammn impressive). I would rather be able to bench 315 for 18 reps than have my arms be a couple inches bigger, but that is just the powerlifter in me talking. BUT, I'd love to have a 34" waist WITH my strength; however, strongmen never have ultrathin waists.
Charlie Offline
#43 Posted: Thu, Apr 8 2004, 8:34 AM EST
Joined: 06-16-2002
Posts: 39,751
Wow, look what all I have missed for a couple of weeks! Sonny, cool down, don't let em get under your skin! I do not agree with you on GWB, but you can have your opinion and I can have mine!
This is a wild thread, go smoke a Joya de Nic and enjoy life!
Charlie
E-Chick Offline
#44 Posted: Thu, Apr 8 2004, 9:20 AM EST
Joined: 06-15-2002
Posts: 4,877
The RIGHT side...I am always on the right side!
Charlie Offline
#45 Posted: Thu, Apr 8 2004, 9:22 AM EST
Joined: 06-16-2002
Posts: 39,751
Marla
Double ditto on the right side!

Charlie
fritzthetiger Offline
#46 Posted: Thu, Apr 8 2004, 9:30 AM EST
Joined: 04-03-2004
Posts: 314
E-Chick way to go!!! Do you ride (Milwaukee steel I mean). My Wife and I love to tour on our bikes and we all could have a herf together(if we ever make it out to the left coast).

Fritz
bassdude Offline
#47 Posted: Thu, Apr 8 2004, 9:35 AM EST
Joined: 01-13-2004
Posts: 8,871
An imminent threat with WMDs to us? I don't think so. I surely believe he had them for local use and that someday they will turn up. Maybe in Syria maybe in Iran maybe just buried in the sand.
Sylance Offline
#48 Posted: Thu, Apr 8 2004, 10:05 AM EST
Joined: 06-19-2003
Posts: 592
So I guess I’ll throw my 2-cents in…

Let me start with saying I’m glad we’re there. I’m sorry for ever soldier who’ve lost their lives, but it comes with the job… and I thank them for taking it. However, anyone in the military who doesn’t think they’re there to go to war shouldn’t be there. I’m not heartless, as I have several friends and a God Father over there and they’d be the first to back up my statement.

Anyway… I believe Bush’s error is not on intelligence but on his timing. In my opinion, we should be there for no other reason than the UN mandates that Saddam didn’t comply with. Our problem is that we sent over people and equipment and only then did Saddam begin to comply… although very vaguely, with the UN resolutions. So what do we do now? Do we pack up and go home only to have Saddam kick out the UN inspectors and start all over again? It cost us a fortune to cage him and cost us even more to move our people and equipment. So if anything, blame Bush for relaying on WMD’s for his reason and not just the UN resolution. Perhaps he knew the UN was all talk and no action.

So I ask everyone who complained about the U.S. being there… please please answer this question. How could we have made Saddam comply with UN resolutions, keeping in mind if he didn’t follow them the UN was ‘supposed’ to impose them by force. Do we make it a habit to move forces to and from Saudi every year? I look forward to an answer.
EI Offline
#49 Posted: Thu, Apr 8 2004, 10:26 AM EST
Joined: 06-29-2002
Posts: 5,069
I am glad to see this has turned into a love fest.
Although I think Sonny is still ticked at me.
As for me. I am 6'1" 250 and I do lift. I am just not a fanatic about it, 3 days a week as part of my workouts.
I do ride Milwalkee Iron and am retired from a 20 year career in law enforcement. I never served in the military but during my career I have been in fire fights, street fights, riots and on one occasion looked down the business end of a .45 of someone who intended me harm yada yada yada.
And Sonny even though I don't hold any degrees other than the one from the academy I do have an above average degree of knowledge in issue that matter to me the most.
And belive me I do not take any slams personal, I do enjoy heated debate and like the give and take.

Sonny_LSU Offline
#50 Posted: Thu, Apr 8 2004, 11:33 AM EST
Joined: 11-21-2002
Posts: 1,835
EI, not a worry in the world! We jest and even get heated with it at times, but NEVER personal....promise.

BTW, formal education by no means is the sole measure of intelligence........my father in law has a high school diploma and I am constantly following his lead.
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