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The Fallen in Iraq
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uncleb Offline
#1 Posted: Wed, Apr 28 2004, 7:23 AM EST
Joined: 11-13-2002
Posts: 1,326
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1896&e=1&u=/nm/iraq_usa_names_dc
Charlie Offline
#2 Posted: Wed, Apr 28 2004, 11:08 AM EST
Joined: 06-16-2002
Posts: 39,751
I may offend some of you with this posting, but I am sick and tired of the news networks giving us an up to date running count of the total number of KIA's! This has never been done in any war and there is no need for the "scoreboard" atmosphere of keeping the tally so to speak!

We should honor our dead and fallen not keep score on network news! Not all News networks do this...but ABC, CBS and NBC are happy to give us a running update of total killed since hostilities began and a running count since the overthrow of the tyrant! Just my opinion, and I am a Veteran!

Charlie
Thom Offline
#3 Posted: Wed, Apr 28 2004, 11:19 AM EST
Joined: 12-08-2003
Posts: 6,117
Charlie - I take no offense to you comment, just that this is very untrue: "...giving us an up to date running count of the total number of KIA's! This has never been done in any war..." This was a daily occurance during Vietnam.
dbguru Offline
#4 Posted: Wed, Apr 28 2004, 11:45 AM EST
Joined: 03-06-2002
Posts: 1,300
Casualty counts have been a part of every war I have ever witnessed. Efforts to escape this information is insulating yourself from reality. War may be a necessity at times but we need to understand the costs as well as the benefits, right??

Why shouldn't you be aware of how many folks have been killed?
Charlie Offline
#5 Posted: Wed, Apr 28 2004, 1:10 PM EST
Joined: 06-16-2002
Posts: 39,751
Tue as far as the numbers during firefights and battles, but no running tally day to day has ever been run!

Charlie
Sylance Offline
#6 Posted: Wed, Apr 28 2004, 2:42 PM EST
Joined: 06-19-2003
Posts: 592
dbguru,

I agree with your comments, but the news only gives us half the “score.” It's like watching a football game but only given the score of one team.

When do we hear about the good we are doing there? When do we hear about the schools re-opening or the children thanking our soldiers? When do we hear about the reconstruction efforts or how re-enlistment is at record numbers? When do we hear about soldiers donating their own personal supplies to Iraqi civilians or that over 240 hospitals are now open. When do we hear about the Universities opening or power plants running more efficiently today than pre-war? Fox News reports some of this it at least once a day, but no one else does.
mrtelcom Offline
#7 Posted: Wed, Apr 28 2004, 5:07 PM EST
Joined: 03-25-2004
Posts: 2,255
War is never going to win popular opinion.

People view things different ways, some think this is an anti-war purpose, some think this is a political purpose, some think it is a statement of duty and honor. Some take it for what it is, a statement of facts.

Get the idea? People react according to beliefs. No one group should expect to control the source, without free media, you become the story.
AJ_CHICAGO Offline
#8 Posted: Wed, Apr 28 2004, 8:10 PM EST
Joined: 10-27-2003
Posts: 189
A running count bothers you? Don't you think it should? Don't you think it should make you think about those being killed? Would every other day be OK? How about once a week? Would totally ignoring the count be honoring them? Would naming them all be better? I get tired of it, too, but it's not something I would want to publicly complain about, and I wouldn't want to "shoot the messenger". And it's not a "score" or half a "score". It's a "count" of Americans lost to this "let's make some terrorists" war. Now we're going to keep score? Two schools and one hospital opened per 50 dead? One hundred million gallons of crude per each dead soldier? One hundred thousand less hungry Iraqis per 100 dead Americans? I don't think it's half of the score. I think it should be a reminder of those lost to those who don't want to ignore it. It's so easy and human nature to just think of it as a boring number and not real, dead, never to be heard from again, human beings who will be forever missed by their wives, sons, daughters, family, and friends. It hurts to think of it that way. We don't like to hurt. Even when we read the names in the paper we say to ourselves, "That's a shame", then we immediately try to forget about it and we don't want to think about their families missing them and their suffering sorrow. We need to feel that sorrow and not rationalize it away as a fair trade of a life for death with honor. That's not a fair trade, and we should avoid it if at all possible. Our soldiers willing to die for us are precious. I want to bring them all home and honor them all alive, but we can't. The count will continue. Then one day we'll try to look at the final score and see if it was worth it. Some game.
Robby Offline
#9 Posted: Wed, Apr 28 2004, 9:03 PM EST
Joined: 10-30-2002
Posts: 5,067
Hey A-GAY, how many would be "acceptable" in your opinion? How many in Afghanistan against the Taliban? how many in Iraq? Against whoever? What in your opinion in "acceptable?' I'm curious? Zero? 10? 20? 50? What is an acceptable loss in your opinion to preserve our freedom against the Taliban? Against Al-Queada? How many in your opinion is acceptable? How many is unacceptable?
Sylance Offline
#10 Posted: Thu, Apr 29 2004, 6:55 AM EST
Joined: 06-19-2003
Posts: 592
Amazing…

All I stated was I agree that we should hear about the count of soldier’s deaths, but on the flip side we should also hear about all the good we’re doing there. However AJ disagrees with that, all he wants to hear is the count of deaths there… just the negative. AJ, does it make you feel better? Does every death help you reaffirm your fragile beliefs?

Did I misunderstand somehow?
dbguru Offline
#11 Posted: Thu, Apr 29 2004, 7:52 AM EST
Joined: 03-06-2002
Posts: 1,300
Hey Sy....
My gosh!! we are pretty close to agreement. Just an example for some of you extremists on the left and the right... A conservative like Sylance and a semi-liberal like me can come together and I think that's cool!!

I agree with the concept of total coverage good and bad. My concern is the fact that the press currently does not seem to work in such a way as to ensure free and open coverage. It affects the stories that get time and those that don't. Ratings rule, mixed with other hidden adgendas.

Another thing is today's television journalists are so very controlled by their company's profit adgendas. Not as many reporters in the field (to save costs) and so we hear more repeated news than ever. The concept of "Liberal media bias" is the biggest myth in the world these days with 97% of television news owned by right-leaning individuals. So are slogans like "Fair and Balanced". We really need a broad spectrum of journalists from both the left and the right with total freedom to cover events both good and bad. Then we as a country would have a way to know true costs and benefits of this war. But with the current news network corporate interests in control, this is just not happening and perhaps not likely to change in the foreseeable future. And again I'm concerned about this.
At least the Internet provides different perspectives but also provides many sources of half truths and propaganda from both left and right.

DB

Robby Offline
#12 Posted: Thu, Apr 29 2004, 8:19 AM EST
Joined: 10-30-2002
Posts: 5,067
I think they go too far with coverage personally. We don't need to see every detail of the prosecution of a war.

The most absurd thing I've EVER seen is when the marines were coming ashore in their amphibious assault craft and the media was there on the shore AT NIGHT! WITH LIGHTS AND CAMERAS! TRYING TO INTERVIEW THEM AS THEY TOOK THE BEACH! If I was in charge, I would have locked them all up.

This anomaly exists only as a result of the 24 hour news networks and should be limited.
bassdude Offline
#13 Posted: Sun, May 2 2004, 5:09 PM EST
Joined: 01-13-2004
Posts: 8,871
response for AJ

Who the F*ck are you??? Running Count... No as a Military Vet and one who has been there, I do not want to hear or see a body count on my FELLOW Veterans.. WHAT I WANT TO SEE IS A BODY COUNT ON THE DEAD SOB's WHO HATE US.. does that sound OK to you Frickin Left Sided Bastards??? By Any Means NO offence but I am sick and tired of sitting on the sidelines and hearing Poor ME!!!!!!!! Have you SOB's ever been there? have you seen FEAR in ones eyes? have you seen born tears in a fellow soldiers eyes? KMA.... You F*ckers can spew all you want about anything you want.. but walk the walk before you speak the talk... Don't try to pansy ass yourself in their shoes and speak for them....IF a 10 yr old kid picks up a weapon in defiance you HOSE his ass and do not think about it until you get a chance to dream about it...YOUR Going home someday to see your Family... Bottom Line that is what your thoughts are and I don't give a rats F*ck how deep in the hole you are with GOD.. your intentions Live or Die your going home for that Cook Out with Family.... in the meantime it would be nice if Everyone Cared about the Fellow Veterans!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! those who I see Posting they care but barter the Truth can Honestly Kiss USAHOG's ASS and someday IRL I will give you the chance!!!!!!!!!!! :0)~~~

Until then I am still lurking just as your Creator Does!!!!!

Hog

BTW I would LOVE TO SEE a Running COUNT ON TAL HEADS/ INSURGENTS TALLI UP!!!! I Heard 72 in one Sweep....YAAAaaa HOOooooooo Smart Weapons... that's what I play with ;0)~~~
bassdude Offline
#14 Posted: Sun, May 2 2004, 5:11 PM EST
Joined: 01-13-2004
Posts: 8,871
Please post on my behalf... Thanks
Hog

I don't hear about his military Record?? don't scorn those who have been there.. I was invited to Chicago for a herf this summer would he like to talk about this issue in person??

Hog
plabonte Offline
#15 Posted: Mon, May 3 2004, 8:59 AM EST
Joined: 09-11-2000
Posts: 2,131
First let me state that I have no military experience nor will I ever if left up to me. But just because someone has no experience doesn't mean they can't have an opinion on it.

I mean I've never been the President of the United States. I've never walked in his shoes. But I'm still entitled to case my vote.

I'm tired of military people thinking they are the ONLY ones who can express an opinion in these matters. Granted their perspective may be very different from mine. And I would probably learn a lot from sitting down and talking with one of our fine soldiers or veterans. But this Country has many citizens who are not nor will they ever be military personal. But last I checked it was still a free Country. And that means free to an opinion.
uncleb Offline
#16 Posted: Mon, May 3 2004, 2:01 PM EST
Joined: 11-13-2002
Posts: 1,326
Plabonte,

Great post!!!!!!!!! I agree wholeheartedly. This attitude that just because one has not served in the military means they cannot voice an opinion on it is a bunch of crap!!!!

B.
dbguru Offline
#17 Posted: Tue, May 4 2004, 7:48 AM EST
Joined: 03-06-2002
Posts: 1,300
Also, consider this.... the civilian population pays for the military with our hard earned taxes and votes for its commander in chief (****** Cheney!! ......................just joking). When you pay for service, why wouldn't you have a right to express an opinion on the quality of this service. Hard earned wages paid in taxes and our votes give us every right to express a valid opinion on the operations of our government in a free democracy. And on occassion one can effectively construe that there are cases where those in the military can be too close to a situation to have a valid perspective on what's going on in the military... Case in point ... the judgement of those in the news managing Iraqi prisoners this week. I have great respect for those of you that served and value your opinions but that feeling has got to start being mutual in these discussions. Stop dissing the civilians.

DB
Robby Offline
#18 Posted: Tue, May 4 2004, 8:21 AM EST
Joined: 10-30-2002
Posts: 5,067
You have a right to express an opinion, I don't think that's what's at question here. The question is "running body count?" and footage of the dead and dying? Where are the lines of propriety crossed? You can free speech me till you're blue in the face; you can't yell fire in a crowded movie theater for reasons of public safety. We (you and me) don't need to see every minute detail of a military operation. I think that's where military service comes in to play. I have not personally served although other members of my family have. They have a unique perspective that I do not have. I would not presume to be able to comment on their service having no basis to form an opinion. To say you can comment is a true statement, should we be there? Should we not be there? That is a comment. But to say, I want a running body count, and I want to be able to see the dead and dying... Well, I think that's what has some people who have served here up in arms, and I believe, rightfully so...
plabonte Offline
#19 Posted: Tue, May 4 2004, 9:26 AM EST
Joined: 09-11-2000
Posts: 2,131
All true Robby. My post was directed towards bassdude/usahog's post which I interpreted as "you haven't served so shut your mouth".

I think a count is not a bad thing. Not daily mind you but it is important for us here to know the price being paid. But I do wonder why that stat is always publicized but not the monetary cost of this war. I can understand why it would be hard to do this daily. But I'd like to know how much this is costing the US. Also I'd like to know the progress and the gains made. If you are going to report the "Statistics" do them all not just a part or just one.
Robby Offline
#20 Posted: Tue, May 4 2004, 9:28 AM EST
Joined: 10-30-2002
Posts: 5,067
Good points Paul, good points.
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