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Oops, friendly fire...Tillman
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428cj Offline
#51 Posted: Tue, Jun 1 2004, 4:50 PM EST
Joined: 04-26-2003
Posts: 741
I would really like a clarification mhpd, since you say you're a cop too. Recently two local police officers died on duty, a Motor Officer was hit and killed on duty and another officer was hit and killed while responding to a call.

So now, since their deaths were accidental are they not community 'heroes' for doing (and dying for) their job? As one cop to another I hope you answer one way, I'd be awfully ashamed if it were the other way (of course you're totally open to your own opinion).

I'm only wondering what your requirements are. To me anyway ALL on duty police, firefighter and military deaths are equally tragic. I also feel all are heroes for doing a dangerous job to benefit either their community or country, whether their death on duty was an accident or not.

Is it possible to you that people MIGHT be considered heroes for doing a dangerous job that the majority would want no part of? No matter HOW they ended up dying?

Just wondering.



JonR Offline
#52 Posted: Tue, Jun 1 2004, 5:36 PM EST
Joined: 02-19-2002
Posts: 9,740
So mhpd in what branch of service did you serve? Inquiring minds want to know. JonR
mhpd Offline
#53 Posted: Tue, Jun 1 2004, 6:08 PM EST
Joined: 01-06-2004
Posts: 55
All cops (not corrupt, who don't shame the badge) who die itlod are heroes. Not sure that goes for soldiers, though, who die for different kinds of causes. Not heroes necessarily, but they deserve respect.

Tillman gets too much hero worship and that disrespects other soldiers.

JohnR, well, man, I did not join the military. Went to j.c., then to a four-year, got my cj degree, joined the force. I didn't know you had to be a military man to comment on our culture and politics. Do you think we have to be veterans to comment? Please answer that question DIRECTLY.
Robby Offline
#54 Posted: Tue, Jun 1 2004, 6:24 PM EST
Joined: 10-30-2002
Posts: 5,067
mhpd, perhaps you were simply misunderstood. But clearly, you can accept that some could take umbrage to such comments. I did not serve. My brother did, my father did, and others in my family. I am very thankful for all who did choose to server, or those who were drafted. It would be best to tread lightly on such incendiary issues. There are those here who did serve, who lost friends, who put their own lives on the line. And I think they interpreted your comments right or wrong as a direct kick in the nads to them, their fallen brothers, and all those who serve today. I am hopeful that it was a misunderstanding. I for one think the hero comments were totally justified in Tillman’s case. And the reference to you winning the lottery and continuing to put your life on the line every day was very relevant. I don’t know how many people would give up what he (Tillman) gave up, not counting his life for our freedom. That does not diminish the sacrifice of the others who have fallen in combat, but it puts a punctuation point on his sacrifice. He didn’t have to do it, he chose in a BIG way to do it. Others who have volunteered may have done so partially for reasons of service, partially for reasons of career, partially for reasons of building themselves from children to men, for whatever reason, how many of them would have walked away from what Tillman did at his age? Not many… I believe this is what calls special attention to this man. He was special. And additionally, he did not want fame for his sacrifice. He specifically turned down interviews, told people to get out of his face, and that’s not what he was there for. He was there for a reason, to protect me, to protect you, to protect “America” and our freedoms. He felt strongly about it. Surely can understand the kind of emotion your post could evoke. I’ve made mistakes, we all have. Please accept this as a growth opportunity and learn from it.
echo4alpha Offline
#55 Posted: Tue, Jun 1 2004, 7:14 PM EST
Joined: 01-25-2003
Posts: 4,349
mhpd,

"All cops (not corrupt, who don't shame the badge) who die itlod are heroes. Not sure that goes for soldiers, though, who die for different kinds of causes. Not heroes necessarily, but they deserve respect."

This is pretty sad. Cops are no more heroes than military personnel. Realize it or not, you're all bretheren. You all protect us as a society. Our military men and women serve in combat zones abroad, fight for life and liberty and basically keep the wolves away from our doors. Why? So that law enforcement is enough within our borders. Look at all the nations that have their military policing the populace. To say that a law enforcement officer is a hero, but a dead warrior is not, well, it's all BS.

I respect your opinion, but I also think you'll never understand what most of us are saying. I don't know what it's like responding to a 911 call, but I do know what it's like engaging an enemy reinforced regiment. Bullets are blind. They don't care what they hit. I hope you'll never have to find out.

R/S
E4A
donutboy2000 Offline
#56 Posted: Tue, Jun 1 2004, 7:31 PM EST
Joined: 11-20-2001
Posts: 25,000
Why are you so bitter about Tillman? There can be more than one hero.
mhpd Offline
#57 Posted: Wed, Jun 2 2004, 4:21 AM EST
Joined: 01-06-2004
Posts: 55
e4a,

Let me tell you how I see the difference. As a cop, I and my brothers and sisters uphold a law that is inherently good and just. Wouldn't do this if I didn't think the laws are good and just. I don't consider a cop who dies upholding segregation laws or slavery to be a hero. But we live in a time when our laws I and my br/sis uphold are the right ones.

Not true in a war. Afganistan and Iraq are not good and just wars. They are bringing us financial hard times and making us look bad on the world's stage. There was little justification for Afg, none for Iraq, in my view, so I don't see all as heroes just because they die. Now, if they're helping to save their bros and sis lives by risking there own, that is heroic to me. But just getting shot fighting a bad war doesn't make a person a hero. That's what I'm getting at.

Think about this difference between cops and soldiers. If I shoot a civilian, full investigation. Our soldiers have killed civilians by the thousands in Afganistan and Iraq, no investigation. The military won't even try to get an accurate count. (What are they hiding?) That's a real difference, which means we aren't the same. I can't strafe a building just cause I think there are bad guys inside. If I do, I go to prison.
Buckwheat Offline
#58 Posted: Wed, Jun 2 2004, 5:00 AM EST
Joined: 04-15-2004
Posts: 12,251
So what you are saying mhpd is that you interpret which laws that you feel that you should enforce? I’m not talking about turning a blind eye to someone going 65 in a 55 zone. It sounds like you are the kind of guy that let someone murder someone if you thought that it was “justified”. I don't know where you live and work but I'm sure that your department’s internal investigation unit (or what ever your force may have) would love to get a hold of you. You come across like a vigilante not a cop.

I know that most of the policemen in my neck of the woods have to take an oath that says something to the effect of: "Policemen are bound to enforce and compel obedience to the laws of their state and to the ordinances of the cities and towns within their jurisdiction."

If you want to interpret the law, become a judge. If you want to make the laws, become a legislator.
penzt8 Offline
#59 Posted: Wed, Jun 2 2004, 5:07 AM EST
Joined: 06-05-2000
Posts: 1,771
mhpd,

This is where your logic is flawed. As members of the armed forces we swore an oath to support and defend the constitution (the LAW) of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic. As enlisted members we also swore to obey the orders of the officers appointed over us and the officers swear to obey the orders of the President of the United States.

My oath of office didn't say I could pick and choose which orders I would obey. As long as the order is lawful, it must be obeyed. The men and women in uniform aren't allowed a vote on whether any war is justified. They are instruments of power to be wielded by politicians. This ain't no union job where you all can walk out if the pay or the duty sucks.

How much security would the US have if everyone in uniform was able to refuse the orders that are passed down? Everyone that chooses the military life is a hero in my mind because they swear that oath and in essence, put the control of their lives into the hands of elected officials. They provide the security for our nation during peacetime and conflict.

The biggest difference between the military and the civilian heroes (police, firemen, etc) is the commitment to serve and the oath of office. Military members can't just quit when they feel like it. Once they sign the contract and take the oath, they are committed for a defined period of time. The penalty for refusing an order or violating the military rules and regulations is often nonjudicial punishment or in severe cases a courts martial.

428cj Offline
#60 Posted: Wed, Jun 2 2004, 6:33 AM EST
Joined: 04-26-2003
Posts: 741
Ahhh, so it IS a political thing. Figures.
penzt8 Offline
#61 Posted: Wed, Jun 2 2004, 6:39 AM EST
Joined: 06-05-2000
Posts: 1,771
of course it's a political thing. The military is placed under civilian control as a safeguard. Imagine how easily we could become a military dictatorship if the generals weren't controlled by elected officials.
428cj Offline
#62 Posted: Wed, Jun 2 2004, 6:54 AM EST
Joined: 04-26-2003
Posts: 741
Actually I was talking about mhpd and his opinions against our murderous ("Our soldiers have killed civilians by the thousands in Afganistan and Iraq, no investigation") military.

I thought I could smell some politics in this thread.

So by his comments if it's a war HE supports the troops are ok. If HE doesn't like the reasons for the war, well....
penzt8 Offline
#63 Posted: Wed, Jun 2 2004, 7:24 AM EST
Joined: 06-05-2000
Posts: 1,771
Anyone remember a place called Waco, TX? Law enforcement was responsible for the deaths of numerous men, women and children. Did any of them go to jail?

How about Ruby Ridge?

Law enforcement has its share of civilian caualties.
Sonny_LSU Offline
#64 Posted: Wed, Jun 2 2004, 7:40 AM EST
Joined: 11-21-2002
Posts: 1,835
"Charlie, I be real, brother."

yep......real stupid!

You are right. No, Tillman's life wasn't worth more than all the others; however, he does stand as a great example of shunning the almighty greenback for pride and love of country. Your post reeks of bitterness and self-esteem isuues.

Can you see this?



That was me giving you the old number 1!
echo4alpha Offline
#65 Posted: Wed, Jun 2 2004, 7:45 AM EST
Joined: 01-25-2003
Posts: 4,349
mhpd,

Like I said before, I respect your opinion and it gives me insight to your beliefs. I am not lombasting you, just trying to give you insight to my beliefs.

Highjacking aircraft is illegal. Murdering thousands of noncombatants in the World Trade Center is illegal. Not to mention outright cowardice acts. The terrorists that hit us were more than willing to die for their objectives. Our police and firemen performed some of the bravest acts of mankind that day and in the days that followed. BUT, they could not prevent it from happening.

Our brave warriors are there to make sure this doesn't happen again. They are fighting a war on terrorism. They neutralized the Taliban. They're taking down Al-Qaeda. They are doing the things that law enforcement can't do domestically. The military can't be a police force domstically either. I'm sure you're aware of the Posse Commitatus laws.

Our Warriors are dying. That tears my heart apart. They are our parents, siblings and children. They died doing a job that many won't. They aren't fond of killing. They don't want to kill "everything they see". You as a police officer felt the need to serve your community. They as Warriors felt the need to serve our nation. There is your common thread.

You serve in hostile environment, but you are not subject to ambush by trained platoons of soldiers armed with automatic weapons, RPGs and IEDs with a populace that supports them. Yes, you are exposed to the potential. They are exposed to the inevitability. Again, I hope you never have to find out.

R/S
E4A
CanyonDVM Offline
#66 Posted: Wed, Jun 2 2004, 7:54 AM EST
Joined: 10-26-2002
Posts: 259
E4A Bravo Bravo Bravo
mhpd Offline
#67 Posted: Wed, Jun 2 2004, 8:14 AM EST
Joined: 01-06-2004
Posts: 55
Echo, I'll respond to you since the rest are just personal attacks. I appreciate your serious response.

Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, or with Al-Q. That's a fact. Afgan citizens had nothing to do with it adn there the ones paying the cost of this war. That's true, I think.

I don't disrespect the soldiers in this war. They follow orders. I consider there deaths as victims of a unjust policy, not heroism. THat's my opinion and I know many disagree, but the majority of americans are seeing that Iraq was the wrong war to fight.

Let's put this thread to rest, folks!
Robby Offline
#68 Posted: Wed, Jun 2 2004, 8:28 AM EST
Joined: 10-30-2002
Posts: 5,067
mhpd? you pu$$y where did I personally attack you? (before now pu$$y) You ignored my post completely, but I think I figured out your problem. You problem is that you're a "hyphenated" American and have issues with most people...
Buckwheat Offline
#69 Posted: Wed, Jun 2 2004, 9:08 AM EST
Joined: 04-15-2004
Posts: 12,251
mhpd if you had just posted that you are opposed to the US led wars in Iraq and Afghanistan I would have accepted your position and moved on. But you didn't you opened up this can of worms now choke it down.
snowwolf777 Offline
#70 Posted: Wed, Jun 2 2004, 9:36 AM EST
Joined: 06-03-2000
Posts: 4,082
What Buckwheat said. Your original comment had nothing to do with your feeling the pain of the plight of the Afghan people, nor was it intended to show any concern over your fears of our soliders fighting an unjust war. It was a mean-spirited sucker punch, pure and simple. Don't ram a stick in the wasp nest if you can't handle the stings.
Sonny_LSU Offline
#71 Posted: Wed, Jun 2 2004, 12:15 PM EST
Joined: 11-21-2002
Posts: 1,835
You make your bed, you gotta sleep in it, hoss.
Robby Offline
#72 Posted: Mon, Jun 14 2004, 5:12 AM EST
Joined: 10-30-2002
Posts: 5,067
True colors...
tailgater Offline
#73 Posted: Mon, Jun 14 2004, 7:03 PM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
In addition to his life, Pat Tillman didn't simply give up millions of dollars. He quit the one thing he strove for his entire life: NFL Football.

mhpd, I assume you didn't just wake up one day and were given a badge. No, you earned it. Through hard work that shows in your pride of the force.

Every ounce of pride you feel towards your force and your job, and the job of your "brothers", likely pales in comparison to the grit and determination required to make it to the NFL field.

Don't get me wrong: Cops should be paid a thousand times what football players do.
But in all the country, there are only 32 NFL teams, with only 53 guys playing for each team on any given Sunday.
How many cops are out there from the same pool of eligible people?

So Pat Tillman became one of the few chosen to make his career on the gridiron.
And when he finally reaches the apex of his career, with a new contract and wealth beyond belief, he gives it up.

And he did so with only a glimpse of fanfare, none of which was self-initiated.
And he traded the safety of shoulder pads for the necessity of a rifle.
And he did so, willingly, because he felt he HAD to do something FOR his country.
Yes, Pat Tillman was a HERO in EVERY sense of the word.

Nobody is asking you, mhpd, to give up your day job.
But to belittle Pat Tillmans life because you're "sick" of the media diefying him, well I guess Robby is right.

Your true colors are worn for all to see.
And they don't at all resemble the BLUE that your uniform should display proudly.
And that's a damn shame.
SteveS Offline
#74 Posted: Tue, Jun 15 2004, 4:58 AM EST
Joined: 01-13-2002
Posts: 8,751
HERO is defined as: "A person noted for feats of courage or nobility of purpose, especially one who has risked or sacrificed his or her life"
SteveS Offline
#75 Posted: Tue, Jun 15 2004, 7:49 AM EST
Joined: 01-13-2002
Posts: 8,751
This is not the first offensive post from mhpd, it's just the MOST OFFENSIVE

mhpd's denegration of Pat Tillman is the denegration of other members of our military ... men far better than mhpd, whose sacrifices have enabled the very freedom he so gratuitously abuses ...

mhpd ... you sir, nauseate me to the core of my being ... I find it incredulous to think that you could be a law enforcement officer ... I have a son in law enforcement, but am proud to say, his character is far more like Pat Tillmans than it is like yours ...
you, IMO, are completely and utterly undeserving of the freedoms you have, freedoms that have been won by the efforts of far better men than yourself ...

Charlie Offline
#76 Posted: Tue, Jun 15 2004, 8:19 AM EST
Joined: 06-16-2002
Posts: 39,751
I guess it is my turn to hammer on Mhpd or whatever he is! This guy is the sickest of posters on this forum and continues to belittle the accomplishments of decent Americans who choose to serve in the military! He should crawl back into the hole from which he emerges to post his vile viewpoints! Sorry to the others on the board for my blast and I tried to keep it clean.
Charlie
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