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Last post 19 years ago by DrMaddVibe. 19 replies replies.
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AVB Offline
#1 Posted:
Joined: 05-21-2003
Posts: 995
Published on Wednesday, June 16, 2004 by the Guardian/UK

Rumsfeld & Torture - This Won't Hurt Much

by Terry Jones

For some time now, I've been trying to find out where my son goes after choir practice. He simply refuses to tell me. He says it's no business of mine where he goes after choir practice and it's a free country.

Now it may be a free country, but if people start going just anywhere they like after choir practice, goodness knows whether we'll have a country left to be free. I mean, he might be going to anarchist meetings or Islamic study groups. How do I know?

The thing is, if people don't say where they're going after choir practice, this country is at risk. So I have been applying a certain amount of pressure on my son to tell me where he's going. To begin with I simply put a bag over his head and chained him to a radiator. But did that persuade him? Does the Pope eat kosher?

My wife had the gall to suggest that I might be going a bit too far. So I put a bag over her head and chained her to the radiator. But I still couldn't persuade my son to tell me where he goes after choir practice.

I tried starving him, serving him only cold meals and shaving his facial hair off, keeping him in stress positions, not turning his light off, playing loud music outside his cell door - all the usual stuff that any concerned parent will do to find out where their child is going after choir practice. But it was all to no avail.

I hesitated to gravitate to harsher interrogation methods because, after all, he is my son. Then Donald Rumsfeld came to my rescue.

I read in the New York Times last week that a memo had been prepared for the defense secretary on March 6 2003. It laid down the strictest guidelines as to what is and what is not torture. Because, let's face it, none of us want to actually torture our children, in case the police get to hear about it.

The March 6 memo, prepared for Mr Rumsfeld explained that what may look like torture is not really torture at all. It states that: if someone "knows that severe pain will result from his actions, if causing such harm is not his objective, he lacks the requisite specific intent even though the defendant did not act in good faith".

What this means in understandable English is that if a parent, in his anxiety to know where his son goes after choir practice, does something that will cause severe pain to his son, it is only "torture" if the causing of that severe pain is his objective. If his objective is something else - such as finding out where his son goes after choir practice - then it is not torture.

Mr Rumsfeld's memo goes on: "a defendant" (by which he means a concerned parent) "is guilty of torture only if he acts with the express purpose of inflicting severe pain or suffering on a person within his control".

Couldn't be clearer. If your intention is to extract information, you cannot be accused of torture.

In fact, the report went further. It said, if a parent "has a good-faith belief [that] his actions will not result in prolonged mental harm, he lacks the mental state necessary for his actions to constitute torture". So all you've got to do to avoid accusations of child abuse is to say that you didn't think it would cause any lasting harm to the child. Easy peasy!

I currently have a lot of my son's friends locked up in the garage, and I'm applying electrical charges to their genitals and sexually humiliating them in order to get them to tell me where my son goes after choir practice.

****** Cheney's counsel, David S Addington, says that's just fine. William J Haynes, the US defense department's general counsel, agrees it's just fine. And so does the US air force general counsel, Mary Walker.

In fact, practically everybody in the US administration seems to think it's just fine, except for the state department lawyer, William H Taft IV, who perversely claims that I might be opening the door to people applying electrical charges to my genitals and sexually humiliating me.

So I'm going to round up all the children in the neighborhood, chain them and set dogs on them. I might accidentally kill one or two - but I won't have intended to - and perhaps I'll take some photos of my wife standing on the dead bodies, and then I'll show the photos to the other kids, and finally, perhaps, I might get to find out where my son goes after choir practice. After all, I'll only be doing what the US administration has been condoning since 9/11.

· Terry Jones is a writer, film director, actor and Python

terry-jones.net

© Guardian Newspapers Limited 2004

Robby Offline
#2 Posted:
Joined: 10-30-2002
Posts: 5,067

Does anyone really think there's never a need for the CIA, NSA, etc... to "extract" information from undesirables? Let's say that the terrorists are planning to detonate a nuclear bomb in a major US city. Let's say that city is "your" city. Let’s say we have credible intelligence pointing to certain groups and or individuals who have knowledge of these plans (vis-à-vis the TV show 24).

You would rather have them read their Miranda rights, given a free lawyer, and pled the 5th? You’re doing shrooms man! I say beat the hell out of them, put jumper cables on their nads, cover them in honey and lay them on an ant hill, do whatever it takes. Some call it torture, I call it persuasion… Unless you’d rather go from room temperature to 8,000 degrees in less than a second? And your family? Yeah, that would be much better than a little unseemly business against someone who would gladly kill millions of people in an instant… WAKE UP! WAKE UP!! WAKE UP!!!
johnfs Offline
#3 Posted:
Joined: 01-01-2003
Posts: 2,993
So.. Robby just where do you go after choir practice?
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#4 Posted:
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
AVB

what's his name not withstanding with his "Some call it torture, I call it persuasion" quoting "the TV show 24", your author has a way with words, and you have a way with copy and paste.

stay alert or as they say "WAKE UP! WAKE UP!! WAKE UP!!!"


RICKAMAVEN Offline
#5 Posted:
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
incidently i rent the entire set of dvd's of the previous years "24 hours" as soon as they are released. kiefer sutherland does a great job as well as the writers. toby and i can usually watch 3 to 4 hours at a sitting, and with sports being over until the NFL starts, we have little to watch on TV except some of the HDTV specials about places and animals, and of course "the daily show".

i must go now and turn on air america on line. i need my daily dose of the liberal media.

http://www.airamericaradio.com/pub/globalDefault.htm
Robby Offline
#6 Posted:
Joined: 10-30-2002
Posts: 5,067
Sorry Rick, that was straight from the bowels of my brains, no C&P here... And I lettered in choir I'll have you know.
00camper Offline
#7 Posted:
Joined: 07-11-2003
Posts: 2,326
There is no law - or lack thereof - to prevent anyone's use of torture or extreme force for the purpose of achieving a desired goal. People are subjected to torture every day in every country on Earth - even in the United States of America. I'm sure American troops tortured and otherwise applied extreme force to German and Japanese prisoners to obtain life-saving information during WWII. I'm equally sure that German and Japanese troops tortured or applied extreme force to Allied troops for the same reasons.

What makes the Iraqi situation into a story is politics. Politics pure and simple.

Those of you who think that adopting a law against torture, or repealing the Patriot Act, will somehow prevent torture and abuse of prisoners are living in a dream world where the sun is always shining and everybody is always friendly and happy.

The world is a dangerous place. Leaders of certain countries view destroying the United States as their number one national goal and work unceasingly to achieve it, thwarted only by our ability to defend ourselves and our willingness to carry out that ability.

The Iraqi torture story is only a story because opposition politicians and sympathetic media outlets continue to consort with the enemy to bring an end to America as we know it.

Thank you for listening.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#8 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,618
This is amusing.

Rick has a problem with the way we "coddle" terrorists. One of Rick's favorite shows is "24". The hero of the show (on almost ANY given night) can be seen bending the rules of engagement/arrest any way he sees fit...and does with compelling results! It's ok for people on the "idiot box" to torture or mentally abuse terrorists, but if it's done in real life with REAL terrorists that want nothing more than to see all Western civilizations destroyed and their citizen's heads on a pike...WHOA! Watch out! Rick has a problem! He'll start blowing off about "lil' w" this and that anyone but Bush can do the job. I say that that is a double standard mentality and it needs to stop. You can't have an omlette without breaking a few eggs. Let the damn "chefs" do their job so they can come home with a mission accomplished and not some band-aid fix to appease the masses that don't have the stomach to see this through!

Life imitating Art? That can't happen!

Art imitating Life? How dare you!

See what I mean? It has to stop. If for no other reason, then to support the troops and the mission that they have to carry out. War IS hell. If it wasn't, then we'd have more of them.
AVB Offline
#9 Posted:
Joined: 05-21-2003
Posts: 995
While I'm sure that some forms of pressure were used in previous wars, our country wasn't one to do it indiscriminately. We had a huge number of prisoners here in camps during WW II and I've never heard of allegations of treatment like at Abu Greb.

Since it seems that the higher level prisoners aren't even kept in country I have doubts about the level, quality, timeliness, and truthfullness of the information gained at these lower level facilities.

We subscribe to the Genevea Convention because the hope is that our prisoners will be treated in the same manner we treat their prisoners. We have the moral imperative to rise above this thinking and let the rule of law be our guide. We have fought to bring this rule to these people and it would be a shame to show them it means nothing.

Having come close to being captured once (Koh Tang Island, Cambodia in May of '75)I might tend to think of these things a bit more than you.
Robby Offline
#10 Posted:
Joined: 10-30-2002
Posts: 5,067
Cambodia? I thought the government said we weren't in Cambodia? AVB, I can't even imagine what it must have been like. You sir have my deepest respect...

But, with regard to WWII, they were a country, they wore uniforms, they were soldiers, they were not terrorists that were the equivlent of "spies". I believe we have the right to execute spies, i.e., Sacko and Vansetti (sp).
DrMaddVibe Offline
#11 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,618
The Genevea Convention is reserved for the armies of nations. Al Qaeda doesn't have a nation. They spread their hatred to the far corners of the globe.

Is this how THEY operate under the Geneva Convention? If so...STFU about making those jagoffs wearing panties on their head and other stupid BS!http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=578&ncid=578&e=1&u=/nm/20040618/ts_nm/security_saudi_dc
AVB Offline
#12 Posted:
Joined: 05-21-2003
Posts: 995
2/9, 3rd MarDiv landed on Koh Tang Island in support of the USS Mayaguez rescue on 17 May 1975. Supposedly, the crew was taken there after their capture and some remained while others were sent to the mainland. Instead of a Khmer Rouge R&R spot with about 100 men (as Intel reportrd at the time) there was a fresh battalion of over 400. Needless to say all plans went out the window once we touched down. You can read about more of you want here: http://members.tripod.com/~GranzowMissingLinks/POW_MIA.html
DrMaddVibe Offline
#13 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,618
Did Kerry come and rescue you?
Robby Offline
#14 Posted:
Joined: 10-30-2002
Posts: 5,067
I'll say it again, I can't even imagine what it must have been like. You sir have my deepest respect...
AVB Offline
#15 Posted:
Joined: 05-21-2003
Posts: 995
DMV, He came before me as did so many others. All of them fought in their own ways so you and I can post freely here. It must grate on you terribly that a liberal helped keep you free.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#16 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,618
No, because I did my part too. I choose not to showboat.
00camper Offline
#17 Posted:
Joined: 07-11-2003
Posts: 2,326
AVB,
You are wrong. American soldiers routinely took out their frustration on German prisioners. Two weeks ago, on the anniversary of D-Day, a veteran recounted the story of what happened to a German POW in his unit's custody who spat on an American soldier. Not pretty. He also didn't have any regrets, either. If you multiply that by the many thousands of American soldiers and encounters with German prisoners you can surmise that such beatings happened more than once during the war.
Cavallo Offline
#18 Posted:
Joined: 01-05-2004
Posts: 2,796
robby: that would be sacco and venzetti (i'm a descendent of the sacco family, loosely related to the alleged spy). woo hoo.

we're not fighting WWII. we're not fighting in viet nam and cambodia. we're in a time and place of OLD hatreds fighting in ways that we are not used to at all.

personally, i think it would be just dandy if we could sic the american mafia (be it of italian, russian, jamaican, etc. extraction) on AQ. such calibre of people far better understand the nature of the AQ-like beast, and there would be no political constraints to sully our collective conscience.

not to say that our troops are not qualified for the job of kicking a$$ and taking names; they are. but sometimes when it comes to "an eye for an eye," so much the better if the parties in question are used to life at the same eye level!
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#19 Posted:
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
DrMaddVibe

"24" is a tv show. it's not real. the people in are actors.

dorothy didn't relly leave kansas, she had a dream.

santa claus is real.

the easter bunny is not.

i don't know about the tooth fairy, i was always asleep when he visited.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#20 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,618
I'm starting to see why you have a hard time believing Bush is your President!
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