America's #1 Online Cigar Auction
first, best, biggest!

Last post 19 years ago by CanyonDVM. 16 replies replies.
My Problem with Farenheit 911
ajeroth Offline
#1 Posted:
Joined: 07-17-2003
Posts: 1,000

Sorry but its long. I'm not going to go into my personal political views or opinions. And I'm not here to debate this article for its correctness or faults. I just put it here so that others might take a look.
Thanks,

ajeroth



>>MY PROBLEM WITH "FAHRENHEIT 9/11"
>
>By Frank Schaeffer
>
>July 2nd, 2004
>
>As a military parent whose son was recently deployed in the Middle East I
>object strongly to Michael Moore's cynical exploitation of our men and
>women in uniform. When a political satire stoops to manipulating young
>soldiers and Marines and their grieving parents to score political points
>something is very wrong. And when a political film like "Fahrenheit 9/11"
>uses the military as fodder for satire aimed at someone else-Bush-then
>feigns respect for those same soldiers the filmmaker is mocking I want to
>tell the film maker he can't have it both ways.
>
>Moore reminds me of a wife beater who brings his wife flowers in the
>morning to assuage his guilt for the black eye he gave her the night
>before. First Moore disrespects the military then he says I really do love
>you. No matter how much he hates Bush getting rid of the current president
>is no excuse for insulting my son and all his military brothers and
>sisters. And Moore's movie is an insult to our men and women.
>
>First it is condescending as Moore pretends to sympathize with our military

>men and women. Then Moore turns downright mean when he portrays our men in
>uniform as mindless thugs. Either way we never hear about patriotism, let
>alone loyalty to other soldiers, let alone who is really in the military or

>why they are there, let alone about all the Marines and soldiers who are
>dead because they hesitated to shoot at enemies hiding behind civilians. We

>see the anomalies not the mainstream. We see exploited African-American
>youth and white crackers and a few conscientious objector types. What we
>don't see is the real military majority-middle class white kids from small
>towns following in their father's footsteps and minorities of all ethnic
>backgrounds who want to give something back to the country they honor.
>
>Moore has every right to say whatever he wants about President Bush. (Just
>for the record I was and am a John McCain supporter.) And Moore has the
>right to edit old video tape to make the President look like a simpering
>fool even if it is grossly unfair. Politics is hardball. Moore makes some
>excellent points about our naive American relationship with the Saudis and
>also about our staggering lack of adequate response when we sent only
>10,000 men to Afghanistan and missed our shot at bin Laden. He also comes
>close to telling the truth about the hysterical paranoia that leads to
>grandmothers being frisked in airports while nothing much is done about our

>real enemies. (Though if we had followed the logic of Moore's movie-the
>Saudis are the real enemy in the movie-and attacked them after 9/11 I bet
>Moore still wouldn't like Bush.)
>
>It is a little hard to take Moore's Bambi approach to the pre-American
>invasion Iraq seriously. Remarkably all we see is in his movie of Saddam's
>Iraq is happy footage of happy children before the Americans bomb them.
>(Bambi as in the scenes in the forest with his mother before the evil
>hunters arrive!) There is no sign of mass graves or gassed Kurds. Iraq
>under Saddam looks like a commercial for an Islamic Disneyland.
>
>Fairytales about happy pre-invasion Iraq aside, Moore crosses the line of
>decency when he uses ambush tabloid-style methods on young military men and

>reduces their lives to cleverly manipulated sound bites to serve his
>political attack. Someone needs to explain to Moore that presidents come
>and go and aren't really all that important (it has been a long time since
>the best and brightest wanted to run and we've had a string of
>second-raters and survived just fine), but that our military IS important.
>We NEED our men and women more than they need us. There really are people
>who want to kill us.
>
>Moore edits some footage of pumped up teenagers in uniform talking about
>the music they listen to when they are getting shot at and shooting back.
>He uses the macho swaggering statements of a few immature soldiers out of
>context, a context where they were trying to pump themselves up to face
>battle with brave and foolish words (or violent music). The fear and horror

>of battle make men do and say many things and until Moore walks in their
>shoes he should back off. Moore manipulates their words to portray an
>entire military campaign as driven by young men listening to heavy metal as

>they gleefully blow away women and children. It is a lie. I have just
>finished editing a collection of letters from hundreds of military men and
>women-"Voices From The Front" - due out this fall, and the letters, not to
>mention all the men and women I know personally, not to mention my son,
>tell another story. They grieve over civilian casualties. But then Moore
>was not trying to tell the truth. He was making propaganda. And that is
>fine too, but not on the backs of men and women who will die for Michael
>Moore and the rest of us tomorrow.
>
>Moore would not know a nuance or a complexity let alone a paradox if it bit

>him. He simplistically portrays a military that only exist to protect the
>"capitalist system" he hates and that he is convinced doesn't work because
>there are some streets in Flint Michigan where the houses aren't very nice.

>(Will he be sharing the 20 million or so he's earned so far this year with
>the "exploited" African-American recruits he interviewed? And when in his
>movie Moore challenges some congressmen to sign up their children for
>military service-a great idea by the way, listen up Ted Kennedy-did Moore
>just happen to forget to also ambush his rich pals in Hollywood? Have any
>of Harvey Weinstein's kids signed up recently? Or does Moore only hate rich

>jerks that vote Republican? Will Moore's kids ever show solidarity with the

>rest of us by enlisting?)
>
>Moore portrays the military men and women as the stooges of rich white men
>and oil companies. The problem is that this is a lie. Many of our men and
>women serving are doing so for patriotic reasons and/or for reasons of
>loyalty to their fellow soldiers. Moore never mentions this. Many others
>come from upper middle class families, like my son. In the world according
>to Moore they don't exist.
>
>My son did not join the Marines to blow away children to rock music. Nor
>did he need college benefits. He joined to be part of something bigger than

>himself. He joined to serve his country. He joined because he wanted
>discipline in his life. He joined for adventure. And he is not alone.
>
>Moore shows his profound ignorance about the real military because he does
>not acknowledge that there are thousands of men and women who may well have

>joined for a utilitarian reason-say college benefits-but who then underwent

>a profound spiritual rebirth in the military. Now they are motivated to
>serve because they want to watch the backs of their fellow soldiers. Moore
>doesn't seem to know that there really are thousands of our people who the
>military has taught to live by a selfless code: the man or woman standing
>next to you is more important than you are.
>
>In some scenes a camera crew follows a grieving mother of a killed soldier
>as she cries. Of course she was carefully chosen so as not to alienate
>Moore's leftist base of support. She was not any old military mom. What
>would Moore's core constituency have made of a mom who cried for her son
>and still wanted Bush to win? Moore is sympathetic to her but only after
>establishing her politically correct credentials. She is wearing a special
>cross that symbolizes diversity and tolerance. And she is in a multiracial
>marriage. This is fine with me by the way. I'm all for tolerance and
>multiracial marriages. In the military that Moore disdains there are plenty

>of mixed race couples, a lot more than in Hollywood. The military, unlike
>the Oscar voters, really is a color-blind meritocracy. In the end Moore
>abuses even his token military mom. Moore hates Bush so much he is willing
>to stoop to following this weeping mother around the perimeter of the White

>House in a bizarre tabloid-style moment of maudlin and insensitive
>exploitation.
>
>In other scenes military men and women are portrayed as fools, killers or
>just dumb white guys, say the two Marine recruiters, following poor black
>young men and trying to fool them into joining Bush's military. I know a
>lot of Marine recruiters and Moore must have worked very hard to edit these

>two into the idiots they come off as. The recruiters I know, and most
>likely these two Marines as well, are bright, dedicated and kind. But then,

>as someone who has made a lot of documentaries myself I know what can be
>done to get a point across when you want to. Moore could make the Pope look

>like Hugh Hefner. Michael Moore is a very good film maker. He's just not a
>very good person.
>
>In all cases the men and women of our military are stripped of dignity in
>Moore's movie. They are portrayed as either mindless killers or manipulated

>victims, never heroes. The only military personnel given more than a ten
>second out-of-context sound bite are the soldiers and Marines Moore finds
>who are against the war in Iraq. They get to say things about how killing
>makes you lose parts of your soul. But the problem is that Michael Moore is

>not really interested even in them. He is interested in politics and is
>using these men as a stick with which to beat the president.
>
>What is so dishonest in his movie is that Michael Moore wants to have it
>both ways. In one interview he says that America is a great country. But
>for the rest of the movie he tells us that we are a nation of easily led
>fools with a fascist/victim military. Moore wants to stir up the anti-war
>crowd on the one hand by showing soldiers killing babies to rock music, and

>exploit the sympathies of the American middle class for our men and women
>on the other hand by showing a crying mother whose son got killed.
>
>(Note to John Kerry: If you really love our military denounce Moore's
>portrayal of our men and women and tell America that you don't want our
>votes if they have to be generated by sinking to Michael Moore's level. Do
>that and I'll vote for you, I'll even work for you!)
>
>It is unfair for a movie maker who will make tens of millions of dollars
>this year from attacking Bush to sandbag some 19 year old Marine, who is
>making $18, 000 a year. Moore has all the intellectual and technical
>weapons Hollywood could give him and a huge team backing him up. The 19
>year old soldier has a high school diploma. Michael Moore is a bully.
>
>Our military men and women deserve better. So do their parents. Moore has
>misrepresented us. For every mother who hates the President for her son's
>death there are fifty others who want us to win in Iraq so their son's
>deaths won't have been in vain. Maybe they are deluded but Moore should at
>least have represented the bereaved parents fairly.
>
>Here are some things I'd like to explain to Michael Moore:
>
>These days the military is the last place you can't opt out of your
>commitment when the going gets rough. Many young men and women who signed
>up did so out of a desire to serve our nation. Most of us military parents
>see that the military has made our children and our families' better less
>selfish people. Our men and women have their bad days and their good days,
>but most of all they are loyal to each other; black or white, male or
>female. They get through each day motivated by taking care of the man or
>woman standing next to them.
>
>Last word to Michael Moore: It's not cool to spit on your military, even
>metaphorically, even if the French do like you for doing it. You can help
>bring down Bush without stooping to this.
>
>Frank Schaeffer is a writer. His most recent books are "Faith Of Our Sons-A

>Father's Wartime Diary" and "Zermatt" a novel, book II of the "Calvin
>Becker Trilogy."
Charlie Offline
#2 Posted:
Joined: 06-16-2002
Posts: 39,751
Michael Moore is a director of fiction, meant to pass for trues and the liberal (far left liberals) are buying it hook, line and sinker, even though they know it is all fiction.
Yes, Rickamaven, I went to see the trashy fictional movie and walked out after about the half way point!

Charlie
jackconrad Offline
#3 Posted:
Joined: 06-09-2003
Posts: 67,461
Moore is just another bitter loser
wekikther4wer Offline
#4 Posted:
Joined: 07-12-2003
Posts: 408
When our soldiers are sent to war, they have no say in the matter, right or wrong, they must follow their orders.

That's why it's all our jobs, including Moore, to use whatever tools we have at our disposal, to protest when we feel our elected officials have abused their power. Most of us will use our vote to protest or endorse the war. Moore fancies himself a film maker, so that was his way of protesting.

Free speech is one of the things our soldiers are there to protect. What a pity it would be if we didn't take advantage of it.
jackconrad Offline
#5 Posted:
Joined: 06-09-2003
Posts: 67,461
Remember our soldiers are volunteers.They are all grown up and don't need foolish ash holes to protect them.As far as free speech i do believe he has a right to it . That doesn't mean anyone has to give him any respect. Bye the way, we who dislke and dispise that moron, have the same rights.
Charlie Offline
#6 Posted:
Joined: 06-16-2002
Posts: 39,751
Well stated Jack! Moore is nothing more than a fat, bloated wind bag!

Charlie
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#7 Posted:
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
Charlie

"fat, bloated"

tsk, tsk, tsk
JonR Offline
#8 Posted:
Joined: 02-19-2002
Posts: 9,740
Yo Rick:

Well, then you at least agree with "windbag". That's a start.

JonR
CWFoster Offline
#9 Posted:
Joined: 12-12-2003
Posts: 5,414
Rick, Why are you tsk-ing Charlie about what he said about Michael Moore? It's not NEARLY as offensive as most of what you've said about Bush. Or am I foorgetting the main rule....Liberals are ABOVE hypocracy! oh yeah! that's it!










in a pigs A$$!
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#10 Posted:
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
CWFoster

apparently you missed my apology and my vow.
Charlie Offline
#11 Posted:
Joined: 06-16-2002
Posts: 39,751
Rick

Appreciate your new stance, but really isn't Michael Moore in fact fat and bloated!? If I am wrong about those two discriptions then I would apoligize but as of last sighting of him, he was in fact fat and bloated and still unkempt looking as well! LMAO

Charlie
CWFoster Offline
#12 Posted:
Joined: 12-12-2003
Posts: 5,414
Rick, I probably did.
Gene363 Offline
#13 Posted:
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,844
MSNBC had an interesting link on that page de-bunking Michael Moors 911 file.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5335853/site/newsweek/

They also featured this from Newsweek:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5251769/site/newsweek?tl

If nothing else read the last lines.

Moore's movie will make waves. But it's a fine line between fact and fanaticism.

Deconstructing 'Fahrenheit 9/11'By Michael Isikoff
Investigative Correspondent

NewsweekJune 28, 2004 issue - Can Michael Moore be believed?

It is a question more than a few moviegoers may be asking this week as his new documentary, "Fahrenheit 9/11," hits theaters. Like Moore's previous works, the movie is a melange of investigative journalism, partisan commentary and conspiracy theories. A run-down of some of Moore's most provocative allegations, and how they stack up against the record:

Bush's initial response to the 9/11 attacks. Moore has unearthed video showing Bush attending a photo op in a second-grade classroom in Sarasota, Fla., when chief of staff Andrew Card whispers in his ear: "America is under attack." Card told a TV interviewer in 2002 that the president got up from the classroom "not that many seconds later." Moore's video depicts a seemingly shaken Bush continuing to sit in the classroom for seven agonizing minutes, even reading to the children from a book, "My Pet Goat." The movie suggests Bush reads from the book because he is uncertain about what to do. A report this week by the federal panel investigating 9/11 confirms Bush did remain in the classroom "for another five to seven minutes." It also offers Bush's account: "The president felt he should project strength and calm until he could better understand what was happening," the report states.

Saudi flights out of the United States. The movie claims that in the days after 9/11, when airspace was shut down, the White House approved special charter flights so that prominent Saudis—including members of the bin Laden family—could leave the country. Author Craig Unger appears, claiming that bin Laden family members were never interviewed by the FBI. Not true, according to a recent report from the 9/11 panel. The report confirms that six chartered airplanes flew 142 mostly Saudi nationals out of the country, including one carrying members of the bin Laden family. But the flights didn't begin until Sept. 14—after airspace reopened. Moreover, the report states the Saudi flights were screened by the FBI, and 22 of the 26 people on the bin Laden flight were interviewed. None had any links to terrorism.

The Bush-bin Laden family connection. Moore's film suggests that Bush has close family ties to the bin Laden family—principally through Bush's father's relationship with the Carlyle Group, a private investment firm. The president's father, George H.W. Bush, was a senior adviser to the Carlyle Group's Asian affiliate until recently; members of the bin Laden family—who own one of Saudi Arabia's biggest construction firms—had invested $2 million in a Carlyle Group fund. Bush Sr. and the bin Ladens have since severed ties with the Carlyle Group, which in any case has a bipartisan roster of partners, including Bill Clinton's former SEC chairman Arthur Levitt. The movie quotes author Dan Briody claiming that the Carlyle Group "gained" from September 11 because it owned United Defense, a military contractor. Carlyle Group spokesman Chris Ullman notes that United Defense holds a special distinction among U.S. defense contractors that is not mentioned in Moore's movie: the firm's $11 billion Crusader artillery rocket system developed for the U.S. Army is one of the only weapons systems canceled by the Bush administration.
SteveS Offline
#14 Posted:
Joined: 01-13-2002
Posts: 8,751
fat and bloated IS a factual description of Michael Moore as anyone who has ever seen him can attest ...

Farenheit 911, on the other hand, is NOT a factual description of ANYTHING, but is instead, a fabrication of a few truths, some half truths, a lot of untruths, and some complete out and out bull**** ... because it is described as being a "documentary", it is viewed by a lot of unsuspecting and unwary people as being factual ...

My problem with this piece of bilge, quite frankly, is that the fat, bloated Michael Moore is able to use this anti-Bush and anti-American rant to influence the thinking of the weak-minded ...
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#15 Posted:
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
Charlie

"fat and bloated"

SteveS

"fat and bloated" twice.

i am reminded of the story of a woman who goes to her butcher and asks for a fresh chicken.

the butcher takes ibe from his showase and hands it to the woman who holds it to her nose and smells it also smelling the cavity where the intestines had been removed.

she hands it back to the butcher and says "it doesn't smell fresh."

the butcher replies "lady, could you pass a test like that?"
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#16 Posted:
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
Charlie

"fat and bloated"

SteveS

"fat and bloated" twice.

i am reminded of the story of a woman who goes to her butcher and asks for a fresh chicken.

the butcher takes ibe from his showase and hands it to the woman who holds it to her nose and smells it also smelling the cavity where the intestines had been removed.

she hands it back to the butcher and says "it doesn't smell fresh."

the butcher replies "lady, could you pass a test like that?"
CanyonDVM Offline
#17 Posted:
Joined: 10-26-2002
Posts: 259
"it's all our jobs, including Moore, to use whatever tools we have at our disposal, to protest when we feel our elected officials have abused their power"???

Does that mean that those of us that are conservatives should use whatever tools we have at our disposal to discredit those that we disagree with and you'll support that, no matter how it misrepresentates or distorts the truth? No one said Moore should not be alowed to make these statements, no matter how false and misleading, they said he was dishonest, hipocritical and wrong. I also hope that you would only advocate using legal, if not moral tools.
Users browsing this topic
Guest