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That Juiced up piece of crap wins another MVP
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BeatDragon Offline
#1 Posted: Mon, Nov 15 2004, 9:31 AM EST
Joined: 02-28-2003
Posts: 4,754
Yeah, he must really suck to win his 4th in row, 7th overall. Damn steriod shootin pissant...WE SHOULD ALL JUST HATE HIM HUH!

Just maybe the greatest hitter of all time. To bad most people are to shortsighted and easliy swayed by the whiney ass media to realize it.

And to be voted MVP by the same sports writers that call him an a$$hole,jerk, malcontent, primadonna, juiced up no good waste of human skin!

What a bunch of creeps.

Congats Barry. I hope you win 3 more.
JonR Offline
#2 Posted: Mon, Nov 15 2004, 10:07 AM EST
Joined: 02-19-2002
Posts: 9,740
Yo BeatDragon:

Your statement:

"Just maybe the greatest hitter of all time."

My retort:

"Just maybe the greatest steroid enhanced hitter of all time."

JonR

cexshun Offline
#3 Posted: Mon, Nov 15 2004, 10:07 AM EST
Joined: 09-23-2004
Posts: 1,289
BeatDragon, I disagree with you.
thsdesigns Offline
#4 Posted: Mon, Nov 15 2004, 10:29 AM EST
Joined: 01-14-2004
Posts: 913
Do steriods increase your vision?
BeatDragon Offline
#5 Posted: Mon, Nov 15 2004, 10:30 AM EST
Joined: 02-28-2003
Posts: 4,754
JonR

"To bad most people are to shortsighted and easily swayed by the whiney ass media to realize it."

And Ill say it again. Steriods have nothing to do with his ability to HIT the ball. If he is using it would only give him greater distance. Which from what I have seen, he really doesnt need. Jon, I would like you to show me how using steriods enhances your hand eye coordination, pitch recognition, batting eye, body and hand postioning,follow thru, his ability to break down pitchers and their tendancies, make adjustmenst not only throughout the game but also with in at bats.

Ill be waiting

cexshun, there are arguably better hitters, Ruth, Aaron, Williams, Mays, Wagner, Cobb. Thats why I said MAY be the greatest hitter of all time.
bassdude Offline
#6 Posted: Mon, Nov 15 2004, 10:36 AM EST
Joined: 01-13-2004
Posts: 8,871
and soon add Pujols to your list.
BeatDragon Offline
#7 Posted: Mon, Nov 15 2004, 10:49 AM EST
Joined: 02-28-2003
Posts: 4,754
If Albert keeps it up for another 10 years, without a doubt.
SteveS Offline
#8 Posted: Mon, Nov 15 2004, 12:10 PM EST
Joined: 01-13-2002
Posts: 8,751
Among the best hitters of all time ? .... yes, he is that ... and a rather amazing one as well, given the extent to which he is able to perform at a high level past an age that most others went into a marked deline.

How long can he continue? ... my guess is that he is highly motivated to pass Ruth and perhaps Aaron on the all-time HR list and that once he does so, his performance will fall off very quickly ...
cexshun Offline
#9 Posted: Mon, Nov 15 2004, 12:16 PM EST
Joined: 09-23-2004
Posts: 1,289
Beat, although roids my not improve hand-eye coordination, it does improve batting average. Look at it this way. Batter expects a low fastball, yet a belt high fastball comes in. A normal hitter would simply fly out. However, when you're on the juice and have the artificial muscle, said fly ball suddenly has 100 feet added onto it. So, a routine pop fly becomes a home run.

Plus, pre-2000 season, bonds only hit over 40 HR twice. Then, all of a sudden, he pops out 49, then 73? Plus, his average did not improve on a pace one would expect from natural ability. let's look at the spread:

1998: .303
1999: .262
2000: .306
2001: .328
2002: .370
2003: .341
2004: .362

Looks to me like Mr. Bonds just woke up one morning with the power to play legendary baseball. Steriods increase strength. Strength increases bat speed. Fast bat speed allows faster correction in your swing and allows you to catch up with unexpected fastballs. These number are bloated full of roids. And lets not even talk OBP. Trust me. Us Cub fans know how Roids can benefit a player.

Now Bonds always has had a fantastic eye and great discipline. This can be seen by his average SO per year being WELL below 100. The Roids put him from great player to Legend status.
cexshun Offline
#10 Posted: Mon, Nov 15 2004, 12:19 PM EST
Joined: 09-23-2004
Posts: 1,289
Also as a Cubs fan, it causes GREAT pain in my heart to say if Pujols can stay healthy for the duration of his career, he will quite possible go down as the best player of all time. Stupid Cardinals...
ryantp Offline
#11 Posted: Mon, Nov 15 2004, 12:21 PM EST
Joined: 11-23-2009
Posts: 4,567
I agree with Cexshun.
KNOF Offline
#12 Posted: Mon, Nov 15 2004, 12:22 PM EST
Joined: 10-08-2003
Posts: 4,480
It all depends on who has the balls (no pun intended) to pitch to him the next two years.

Hey Jon and the other Bonds Bashing Brothers, wasn't that so-called steroid scandal at the beginning of this last season? Oh ya, so your saying he was still taking them even as he was accused and under the media scrutiny of steroids. Thats why he received 24 of 32 first-place votes to get his fourth straight MVP.
Did I mention that those other managers and pitches walked him 232 times at his young age of 40. Yup, that steroid use while under investigation allows you to walk that many time, and almost half of them were intentional.

Next???
KNOF Offline
#13 Posted: Mon, Nov 15 2004, 12:24 PM EST
Joined: 10-08-2003
Posts: 4,480
Hey Cexshun, hows your buddy BARTMAN doing?
ROFLMAO!!!
BeatDragon Offline
#14 Posted: Mon, Nov 15 2004, 12:29 PM EST
Joined: 02-28-2003
Posts: 4,754
Interesting theory...

But stating that seroids aids you in adjustting to a fastball in a different location than expected is um well...a bit off base, if not just plain silly.

Its all in the hands baby, quick hands and an amazing ability to locate, adjust, and react.
KNOF Offline
#15 Posted: Mon, Nov 15 2004, 12:32 PM EST
Joined: 10-08-2003
Posts: 4,480
Yup, what Beat said, just like Bartman, use them hands and adjust, heheheeee.
cexshun Offline
#16 Posted: Mon, Nov 15 2004, 12:38 PM EST
Joined: 09-23-2004
Posts: 1,289
KNOF, if I had my choice, he'd be in my trunk right now!

Yeah yeah yeah. Gonz dropped the DP ball after that. Cubs imploded. Wasn't all Bartman's fault, blah blah blah. Us Cub fans try to be civil and not blame him in order to be sportsman-like. Truth is, I hate his guts. And I suddenly like you a lot less for bringing it up my friend. ;)

And I said Bonds has ALWAYS had a great eye. Which would explain his walks. That and pitchers/managers fear his artificial power. I'm not saying he sucks without roids. I'm saying before Roids, he's a mere Jose Conseco/Wade Boggs calibur player. With roids, he's suddenly compared with Mantle, Ruth, Aaron, and Gehrig.
cexshun Offline
#17 Posted: Mon, Nov 15 2004, 12:44 PM EST
Joined: 09-23-2004
Posts: 1,289
Beat. I didn't say roids allows you to adjust to a fastball in a different location. I'm saying with roids, you don't needs to adjust. The added power turns a routine pop fly into a homer. A ball hit off the end of the bat by, say, Jim Edmonds flies out maybe 20 feet short of the warning track. A fly ball off the end of Bond's bat lands, say, 20feet over the right field wall. What the quick bat DOES enable him to adjust to is when he's expecting a curve and gets a fastball. A normal batter doesn't have the strength to muscle the bat around to put the ball in play. Someone on juice can muscle the bat around and put wood on the ball and put it in play. Combine the added bat speed and power with his already great eye and discipline makes for a dangerous player, albeit illegally dangerous.

"He's only hitting 40HR."
"We can rebuild him. We have the drugs. We can make him better then he was before. Make his hands faster, stronger, better."
MACS Offline
#18 Posted: Mon, Nov 15 2004, 12:45 PM EST
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,943
Baseballs travel farther when you hit them harder. Steroids allows for the harder hitting... No question hitting a baseball is the hardest thing to do in sports. However, you cannot just off-handedly discount the fact that using steroids (or the crap that BALCO came up with that works like steroids, but couldn't previously be detected) helps you as a hitter.

And anyone who saw Barry when he was with the Pirates knows he was MUCH smaller. Being the urinalysis coordinator for 5 years at two different commands, I know what taking steroids does to you.

Barry was on the juice. He may not be now, but he was.
cexshun Offline
#19 Posted: Mon, Nov 15 2004, 12:47 PM EST
Joined: 09-23-2004
Posts: 1,289
There a lot of roids in the military Mac? I'd think you'd have bigger problems with marijuana and recreational substances then performance enhancers.
MACS Offline
#20 Posted: Mon, Nov 15 2004, 12:48 PM EST
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,943
Newsflash cexshun... Canseco ADMITTED to taking roids.
MACS Offline
#21 Posted: Mon, Nov 15 2004, 12:49 PM EST
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,943
Not a lot, but I have witnessed it firsthand. The Marines do it more than most. I was on an Amphibious Transport ship... we had Marines that were juicing on our deployment.
BeatDragon Offline
#22 Posted: Mon, Nov 15 2004, 12:54 PM EST
Joined: 02-28-2003
Posts: 4,754
Explain then, how is peers are in such awe of his abilities. Not his power, but his abilities.

Lets take the power numbers out of it. Lets discuss the ability to hit the ball squarely. He rarely miss hits the ball. We are back to ability, not strength, either natural or artificial. To see 7 hittable pitches in a 4 game series and hit 6 of them on the button. That is just utterly amazing. Think about it. He gets 7 pitches to hit and crushes 6 of them. He has the amazing ability to center the ball on the bat. I dont care if you can press 8000 pounds. That has nothing to do with the ability to center the round ball on the round bat and hit it with authority.
cexshun Offline
#23 Posted: Mon, Nov 15 2004, 12:58 PM EST
Joined: 09-23-2004
Posts: 1,289
Beat, I don't think we're argueing whether or not he's a great ball player. I've already conceded that arguement. I'm argueing that his numbers are artificially bloated. He would not be AS GOOD without the juice. What my biggest problem is with all these records he's breaking, he's doing it on roids and ruining the sanctity of the game. The only record he's legitamitly set is the walks records, and that is argueable as one can assume without the roids, his walks would be far less as pitchers wouldn't have to pitch around him as much.
SteveS Offline
#24 Posted: Mon, Nov 15 2004, 1:00 PM EST
Joined: 01-13-2002
Posts: 8,751
Barry is a horse's a** who can hit the ball extraordinarily well, has maintained that extraordinary ability far past the age that most others have ever been able to do, and with the help of chemicals, illegal or otherwise, has enhanced his ability to hit it with power ... yes, that's right sports fans, he took steroids ... he is now larger and more powerful ... he is capable of hitting the ball further ... to believe otherwise is pretty much the equivilent of believing in the tooth fairy, Santa Claus and the Easter bunny ...

BUT ...

Steroids have not, will not and cannot improve his eye-hand coordination, his ability to discern balls from strikes or his ability to hit for average ...

Nor, it would seem, can they help him become anything more than a marginal defensive player and they've failed to add even an iota of charm to his the miserable demeanor he exhibits ...
BeatDragon Offline
#25 Posted: Mon, Nov 15 2004, 1:03 PM EST
Joined: 02-28-2003
Posts: 4,754
Im not discounting the fact that strenght equates to distance. Its just not as easy as he makes it look.

Just as a point of referrence. Have any of you seen major league, or minor league pitching for that matter, first hand in the batters box and tried to hit it?

Played College or JC ball?

Or at least played at the high school level??

Just wondering.
BeatDragon Offline
#26 Posted: Mon, Nov 15 2004, 1:06 PM EST
Joined: 02-28-2003
Posts: 4,754
Steve,

Check how many Gold Gloves that marginal defensive player has one.
BeatDragon Offline
#27 Posted: Mon, Nov 15 2004, 1:07 PM EST
Joined: 02-28-2003
Posts: 4,754
Ok cexshun...I understand where you are coming from. But I believe the roids can only help you with distance.
BeatDragon Offline
#28 Posted: Mon, Nov 15 2004, 1:09 PM EST
Joined: 02-28-2003
Posts: 4,754
Ok cexshun...I understand where you are coming from. But I believe the roids can only help you with distance.

And he really doesnt need help with that. Very few of his HR's are wall scrapers. If he isnt on the roids take away maybe, I dunno, 5 dingers a year. Yes hes THAT good.
BeatDragon Offline
#29 Posted: Mon, Nov 15 2004, 1:09 PM EST
Joined: 02-28-2003
Posts: 4,754
How did I do that?
SteveS Offline
#30 Posted: Mon, Nov 15 2004, 1:21 PM EST
Joined: 01-13-2002
Posts: 8,751
======================================================
Author: BeatDragon Date: 11/15/2004 06:06 PM
Check how many Gold Gloves that marginal defensive player has one.
======================================================

Because he makes very few errors ... but I'd bet serious money that the # of gold gloves he's got outnumber the balls he's ever dived for ... or in recent years, even hustled after ... hell, Beat ... even I could let fly balls hit the deck, then pick 'em up and toss 'em back to the infield ...

C'mon, man ... take an objective look at him ... I grant you he's got some extraordinary skills ... his batting eye, his ability to continue at an age well beyond normal, his ability to hit and hit for power are all awesome ... but his abiity to field his position is well below average these days, his arm has always been his weakest tool and he no longer shows any hustle whatsoever, either in the field or on the basepath ...
BeatDragon Offline
#31 Posted: Mon, Nov 15 2004, 1:23 PM EST
Joined: 02-28-2003
Posts: 4,754
Um Steve....

He's 40 years old.
Charlie Offline
#32 Posted: Mon, Nov 15 2004, 1:28 PM EST
Joined: 06-16-2002
Posts: 39,751
This is a losing argument, yes I hate Bonds, is he great? Yes he is!

He still should have an asterisk next to his name for the enhancements added to his body!

Charlie
BeatDragon Offline
#33 Posted: Mon, Nov 15 2004, 1:33 PM EST
Joined: 02-28-2003
Posts: 4,754
Great...

Now we got the Buc lovers chiming in!

I think your herfing shirt has fried your brain! :)

(I been waiting for Charlies two cents. I know how much he loves Barry and wants to be JUST LIKE him)

Charlie Offline
#34 Posted: Mon, Nov 15 2004, 1:45 PM EST
Joined: 06-16-2002
Posts: 39,751
LMAO, BEAT!

I will give the SOB his due as far as being a great baseball player, still don't have to like him, it is like Bucaneros and CAO's we all have opinions, I happen to like both brands!

Cannot make myself like this BB person!

Charlie
JonR Offline
#35 Posted: Mon, Nov 15 2004, 1:57 PM EST
Joined: 02-19-2002
Posts: 9,740
Yo BeatDragon:

Your statement:

"And he really doesnt need help with that. Very few of his HR's are wall scrapers. If he isnt on the roids take away maybe, I dunno, 5 dingers a year. Yes hes THAT good."

My retort:

Take away 5 dingers, yeah right, LOL. The year before he broke the homerun record (73), he hit (49) homeruns, the year after (44)homeruns.

STEROIDS = DISTANCE, DISTANCE = HOMERUNS, HOMERUNS = BONDS, BONDS = STEROIDS. BETTER HITTTING THRU CHEMISTRY.

When bonds goes into the record books they should use a whole bunch of these... ************************.

JonR
BeatDragon Offline
#36 Posted: Mon, Nov 15 2004, 2:10 PM EST
Joined: 02-28-2003
Posts: 4,754
Then why couldnt the other juiced players produce as well as ol BB????

At thats just the chemically altered ones we know about. Gotts ta figger there are hundreds more that never said a word.

And maybe we should have ********************* next to The Babes name since he never hit at night or faced a relief pitcher. Or have some ***************** next to Mantles name for the games he would have missed due to substance abuse suspensions. Or have some more ************* for Bob Gibson who thru off a higher mound for his record ERA season. How about some ************ for Aaron because the fact that he hit in a ballpark that aided his homeruns. How about giving Mays more home runs becasue the park he played in took HR's away.

Ok thats enough how abouts I think.
mrtelcom Offline
#37 Posted: Mon, Nov 15 2004, 2:28 PM EST
Joined: 03-25-2004
Posts: 2,255
Do 'roids enhance fast twitch muscle fiber? Batting is about pulling the trigger quick, and it seems to me that a good batter would get better with faster reaction... more time to see the ball.

I think he is juiced, btw. His freaking trainer is juicing the whole west coast but he doesn't use it?? uh huh.
xibbumbero Offline
#38 Posted: Mon, Nov 15 2004, 2:39 PM EST
Joined: 01-25-2002
Posts: 12,535
The irony here is that BB has more MVP awards than Ted Williams,Babe Ruth,Mickey Mantle and Willie Mays combined. X
Hoss Offline
#39 Posted: Mon, Nov 15 2004, 3:18 PM EST
Joined: 07-26-2004
Posts: 238
And he's got the used syringes to prove it.
JonR Offline
#40 Posted: Mon, Nov 15 2004, 3:22 PM EST
Joined: 02-19-2002
Posts: 9,740
Yo BeatDragon:

Your reply:

"And maybe we should have ********************* next to The Babes name since he never hit at night or faced a relief pitcher. Or have some ***************** next to Mantles name for the games he would have missed due to substance abuse suspensions. Or have some more ************* for Bob Gibson who thru off a higher mound for his record ERA season. How about some ************ for Aaron because the fact that he hit in a ballpark that aided his homeruns. How about giving Mays more home runs becasue the park he played in took HR's away."

My retort:

What all the above mentioned players did in their time was "LEGAL" in the eyes of baseball at that time, what bonds did (or is doing) is "ILLEGAL" in the eyes of baseball at this time period.

How would you feel if you were a baseball player and you did everything (legally) possible to be the best at your chosen craft, eating properly, working out with weights, studying the techniques of your craft, and practicing extra before games. Then along comes some smuck who does nothing but stick a needle (full of steroids) in his bellybutton or between his toes, and hits 25 more home runs then you, how would you feel?

JonR
cexshun Offline
#41 Posted: Mon, Nov 15 2004, 5:17 PM EST
Joined: 09-23-2004
Posts: 1,289
I still don't understand how MVP can go to a member of a non-contender.
1walleye Offline
#42 Posted: Mon, Nov 15 2004, 6:50 PM EST
Joined: 04-12-2004
Posts: 11
Cexshun,

You hit the nail on the head! The Cards made it to the World Series (and played whoafully) but Pujols seemed to continue hitting thoughout. He did a lot to enhance the baseball season for the Cards and their fans. He would have gotten my vote.

Not to take away from BB, but there's something wrong when he's voted MVP while being suspected of doping and being about as lackadaisical when it comes to fielding or running the bags. I wish all of them would run the bags like Rolen.

Just my 2 cents. Gotta hit the hay!

Later
BeatDragon Offline
#43 Posted: Mon, Nov 15 2004, 7:41 PM EST
Joined: 02-28-2003
Posts: 4,754
Yo Jon,

Heres the reality....

If I was that player you described, with or without the "needle" he was better than I would have ever been. Even if I were enhancing myself

His abillities are not of the every man. No matter what. His peers know it and so does every one else with half a baseball brain.
JonR Offline
#44 Posted: Mon, Nov 15 2004, 8:34 PM EST
Joined: 02-19-2002
Posts: 9,740
Yo BeatDragon:

Let me just say I agree 100% with your "subject title".

JonR
donutboy2000 Offline
#45 Posted: Mon, Nov 15 2004, 9:34 PM EST
Joined: 11-20-2001
Posts: 25,000
If the steroids don't help him, why did Bonds take them? Obviously he thinks they help.
BuckyB93 Offline
#46 Posted: Tue, Nov 16 2004, 4:45 AM EST
Joined: 07-16-2004
Posts: 14,251
Should he be MVP or not? My take is that the writers voted on the MVP based on an individual’s statistics and the statistics support Bonds. That’s the facts. Gotta take the emotion out of it and vote with the numbers. It’s a bitter pill to take but BB has not been nailed yet for using roids so he can’t be convicted yet. If and when he is, all his records and awards should be in question. It’s not a matter if the steroids help your vision or your eye-hand coordination or pitch recognition or whatever, they are illegal. Period.

Does he take them? In my opinion there is enough circumstantial evidence to convince me. His personal trainer testified that he knows when any tests will be taken and how to beat them. BALCO is on record with statements saying that Bonds has regularly visited their labs, received the “clear” and the “cream” on several occasions and even complained about the quality of one of their steroid products they were supplying. Compare his body when he was in Pitt to what it is now. That’s a pretty big growth spurt! And you mean to tell me that this was done naturally? Where there’s smoke, there’s fire. However this is all circumstantial and until BB is caught red handed, he’ll still be able to cash in.
KNOF Offline
#47 Posted: Tue, Nov 16 2004, 5:43 AM EST
Joined: 10-08-2003
Posts: 4,480
1walleye and the other Pujols fans . . .
Yes he can hit the baseball, but how many walks did he have this year, and how many were intentional? What was his on base pecentage and all the other stats? If BB wasn't that good, why do they continually walk him? Then when they have enough balls to pitch to BB, they also have to shift the infield. Most of the time, by his batting percentage, he still hits safely.

So Pujols has a long way to go before he is the MVP.

These are more reasons why one person can be so dominating and truly considered The Most Valuable Player, even if the managment can't get someone to hit behind him so the team will be more productive. The Giants did very well this year for an average team. The only two members that are tops in the league are Barry, and Jason Schmitt.

erkwgz Offline
#48 Posted: Tue, Nov 16 2004, 6:37 AM EST
Joined: 10-07-2004
Posts: 10,840
Just wondering if any body has ever done a year by year photo analysis of BB? I know that at about 18 I weighed 165 and that about 3 years ago I got in the best shape of my life and lost 20-25 lbs. and only got down to 180-185 and practically had to starve myself to do it.I am now almost 40 and I think that I could never be as slim as I was at 18 even if I had the time and the willpower to do so! lol! My point is, I think that with time and Barry's increased emphasis on his weight program "SOME" of his increase in body size could be natural. I am just not sure that all of it is. I hate to judge a person on their friends and confidants so for now I will not do so. I was a big fan of those Pirate teams he played for and for my money BB in his younger years was one of the best defensive outfielders going. I also believe with time comes the natural diminishing of foot speed and the realization that maybe by not doing all the diving with the injury risks that goes with it he might be able to play more and be a better asset to his team.I love to watch Jim Edmonds but how many games has he lost in the last few years due to injuries suffered while making defensive plays? Ken Griffey was a great player but now is so brittle [and I think that the pounding he gave his body has a lot to due with it]that it is a big question mark whether or not he will ever play a full season again. Any way I am done rambling just my .02 cents. Later, Erik.
BeatDragon Offline
#49 Posted: Tue, Nov 16 2004, 6:38 AM EST
Joined: 02-28-2003
Posts: 4,754
Yo Jon

And just let me say that I agree 100% that you would agree 100% with my subject title.





Gotta go do some clear....gotta softball game tonight.
cexshun Offline
#50 Posted: Tue, Nov 16 2004, 6:40 AM EST
Joined: 09-23-2004
Posts: 1,289
People who think BB is au natural are as insane as people who think the Sosa cork incident was an accident.
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