America's #1 Online Cigar Auction
first, best, biggest!

Last post 19 years ago by usahog. 42 replies replies.
Save theTen Commandments
dapperdan Offline
#1 Posted:
Joined: 08-18-2004
Posts: 2,847
http://www.afa.net/petitions/signpetition.asp?id=1310
usahog Offline
#2 Posted:
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
Done and forwarded... thanks Dan!!!

Hog
Charlie Offline
#3 Posted:
Joined: 06-16-2002
Posts: 39,751
Likewise!

Charlie
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#4 Posted:
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
the story is that moses had three tablets and dropped one. imagine 5 comandments missing.

personally i don't approve of religious messages in public places. if you can't remember them, how will you follow them.
lofty1 Offline
#5 Posted:
Joined: 06-07-2004
Posts: 4,670
is that the real story or the story according to Mel Brooks?
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#6 Posted:
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
lofty1

i've always wondered what the other five were.

i know hanging the tablets on wall as a sign of the religion violates the 2nd commandment.
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#7 Posted:
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
dapperdan

how dare you hang a symbol of your religious beliefs on a publicly paid for building. these buildings do not belong to you and your fellow believers.

it's no more then grafiti to people of other religions.

explain your selfish thinking.
lofty1 Offline
#8 Posted:
Joined: 06-07-2004
Posts: 4,670
rick,
do you not believe that this country was founded by christians and based the laws on christian beliefs?
dapperdan Offline
#9 Posted:
Joined: 08-18-2004
Posts: 2,847
Rick. If the one true God is selfish, so be it! In fact # 3 You shall have no other gods before Me. What god do you serve? Out of town for a few days we will talk when I get back.
Dan
dapperdan Offline
#10 Posted:
Joined: 08-18-2004
Posts: 2,847
Actually its the first one I hit the wrong key.
CigarPrimate Offline
#11 Posted:
Joined: 09-18-2004
Posts: 701
Some scholars count 29 original commandments, not ten. A few commandments left out off the two ton monument they kicked out of the Alabama Supreme Court building are:

(Exodus 21:7) "A father may sell his daughter into slavery."

Exudos 21:17) "Whoever curses his father or his mother will be put to death."

See story: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2003/08/26/MN274126.DTL
lofty1 Offline
#12 Posted:
Joined: 06-07-2004
Posts: 4,670
I wouldn't call those people scholars. There are 10 commandments according to the NIV Bible. There are laws listed in Exodus that describe the laws to be created at that time for those people. Those are not described as commandments -- at least, not in the NIV.
lofty1 Offline
#13 Posted:
Joined: 06-07-2004
Posts: 4,670
I just read the King James version, as well. It also seems pretty clear what the commandments are compared to the laws to be set for the followers of Moses. The number of commandments could be up for interpretation, however. What the article describes as commandments seem to be clearly laws for those people and not commandments. They are actually described as "ordinances" while previous rules are described as commandments.


You be the judge. Read the book.
CigarPrimate Offline
#14 Posted:
Joined: 09-18-2004
Posts: 701
I wouldn't call the fellow they booted off the Alabama supreme court a scholar. Talmudic scholar Baruch Spinoza was quite knowledgable on the subject though. His assessments as stated in his Theologico-Political Treatise pretty much echo those of the article. Too many versions and lack of knowledge of extinct ancient Hebrew make forensic certainty untenable. I would tend to give more credulity to participants like Spinoza or exegetical historians and Indo-European linguistic experts, and even the Catholic church, than to a recent invention like the NIV.
lofty1 Offline
#15 Posted:
Joined: 06-07-2004
Posts: 4,670
how much credit do you offer the king james version?
lofty1 Offline
#16 Posted:
Joined: 06-07-2004
Posts: 4,670
actually, before this goes too far out of the original scope of the issue, do you believe the founders of our country based on the laws on the bible and perhaps the ten commandments as described in the king james or any other version? my point is, i think the ten commandments, as we know them today, were very influential in the development of our society and its laws. for this reason, i have no problem with displaying the ten commandments in public, government-owned buildings.
CigarPrimate Offline
#17 Posted:
Joined: 09-18-2004
Posts: 701
Spinoza, a Judeic scholar, published not long after the KJV was completed. His studies were done from the Greek & Hebrew scriptures. The KJV was interpreted from Greek & Hebrew too, but for the purpose of translation into English, and to suit the tastes of the then English crown, which had a lot of differences with the Papacy; so probably that version is going to be subject to primary error due to translation itself, to semantical idiosyncracies inherent in Greek, Hebrew, and English, and to the then prevailing political differences. Probably folks like Spinoza are more qualified to assess the OT, while the Catholics are closer geographically and culturally to the NT. The KJV is removed a few steps from both of these sources, but probably less so than the NIV.
CigarPrimate Offline
#18 Posted:
Joined: 09-18-2004
Posts: 701
That's not a very strong argument. Surely some of the founders were religious, but many others, Franklin, Jefferson, certainly Thomas Paine were not. Figues like Franklin and Jefferson were strongly influenced, as were western European intellectuals, in those times, by the European enlightenment, which was more science based than religious based. Many intellectuals of the 18th century, both in Europe and America were deists, not theists. At that time deism was a sort of socially acceptable atheism. The strong American religious sentiment you refer to, I believe, comes more from the subsequent "Great Awakenings" and tent revivals that were imported from England to counter the Anglican hegemony in the American church of those times. That's where the Evangelical sects arose from, from the later great awakenings, not from the enightenment based deism of the founding fathers.
lofty1 Offline
#19 Posted:
Joined: 06-07-2004
Posts: 4,670
i'll simply have to take your word when it comes to the religious tendencies of the framers of our government as i don't have any real knowledge regarding that specifically. my statements were based on the word "God" being present in national documents that defined our nation. i've been an atheist for as long as i can remember, but i've never had a problem with the government showing its religious roots -- as long as the government practices religious tolerance and equality for all "reasonable" beliefs.

i'm sure i'll get toasted for the use of the word "reasonable."
CigarPrimate Offline
#20 Posted:
Joined: 09-18-2004
Posts: 701
I just remember some of this stuff from history in college. Interesting as hell I thought. The framers, like Franklin, Hamilton, etc. were really quite snooty, wealthy, and taken in with enlightenment thinking. Franklin actually made some stunning scientific discoveries. They called themselves deists, but that can be taken with a grain of salt. Their no-nonsense, anti-royalty, anti-spiritual, empiricism can really be seen in Paine's "Common Sense." The fire & brimstone holy rollers came later and was a popular movement. The Mormons were an off-shoot of this Protestant free-for-all. The wealthy, intellectual, frilly-collar wearing founding fathers would have turned their blue-blood noses up at the rolling on the floor, crying for Jesus Evangelicals; they were a fairly elite, pragmatic bunch.
lofty1 Offline
#21 Posted:
Joined: 06-07-2004
Posts: 4,670
CP, let me know if you're ever in the DFW, TX, area. You seem like someone with whom I'd enjoy a drink and a smoke.
CigarPrimate Offline
#22 Posted:
Joined: 09-18-2004
Posts: 701
That's a fair piece out of my way, but thanks for the gesture. If something does find me out that way I'll be sure to send a line.
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#23 Posted:
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
lofty1

NO.
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#24 Posted:
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
lofty1

in your narrow minded view, you are assuming other people believe as you do. some of don't. some of us don't accept the bible as some mystical proof of some mystical being that is the be all of everything.

why some of us even believe in the sun god, the fire god and the god of rocks.
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#25 Posted:
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
CigarPrimate

why do you quote things from a book that many people believe is nothing more then the compilation of myths.
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#26 Posted:
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
lofty1

my point is, i think the ten commandments, as we know them today, were very influential in the development of our society and its laws.

does that explain jefferson's second family, the slaves he raped.
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#27 Posted:
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
CigarPrimate

this is so well said, it bears repeating in total.
"I just remember some of this stuff from history in college. Interesting as hell I thought. The framers, like Franklin, Hamilton, etc. were really quite snooty, wealthy, and taken in with enlightenment thinking. Franklin actually made some stunning scientific discoveries. They called themselves deists, but that can be taken with a grain of salt. Their no-nonsense, anti-royalty, anti-spiritual, empiricism can really be seen in Paine's "Common Sense." The fire & brimstone holy rollers came later and was a popular movement. The Mormons were an off-shoot of this Protestant free-for-all. The wealthy, intellectual, frilly-collar wearing founding fathers would have turned their blue-blood noses up at the rolling on the floor, crying for Jesus Evangelicals; they were a fairly elite, pragmatic bunch."
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#28 Posted:
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
if the christian right would simply practice what they believe and shut up and stop trying to convince others about their beliefs and stop sticking their collective noses into politics, the country would be a much less divise nation.

they have beliefs, good.

they obey their commandments, good.

now shut up and have some respect for those of us who have our own philisophical ideas about life,
lofty1 Offline
#29 Posted:
Joined: 06-07-2004
Posts: 4,670
rick:
in your narrow minded view, you are assuming other people believe as you do. some of don't. some of us don't accept the bible as some mystical proof of some mystical being that is the be all of everything.

why some of us even believe in the sun god, the fire god and the god of rocks.



rick, i think you've gotten the wrong idea about what i was saying. i don't believe very many people have the same philosophical beliefs as me. i'm not sure how you got theat idea. i do believe, however, that our country's development was influenced by christianity. that's part of the country's heritage. i'm not saying that the government should favor christianity, but at least acknowledge the influence. i don't believe i ever implied that the government should be disrespectful to any/all other beliefs. in fact, i even stated that the government should practice religious tolerance.

i'm starting to think that you just want to argue with me now regardless of what i have to say.
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#30 Posted:
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
lofty1

"at least acknowledge the influence"

well then we should have pictures of slave markets and pictures of the massacre of indians and perhaps a few photos of women being burned alive at the stake.

my opthomoligist would like to see some pictures of his family at manzanar.

i'd like some pictures of some of my relatives aboard the ss st louis being refused landing privileges and sent back to germany to be burnt in the ovens.

gosh, there are so many influences that have helped make this country, why just display only one religious artifact. why not a mezzuza on the door to every public building and a menorah in every entrance.


"i'm starting to think that you just want to argue with me now regardless of what i have to say."

would you prefer a board where someone says something and it is followed by,
ditto
i agree
ditto
what he said

i thought the point was to disagree, debate, keep things lively, perhaps even learn something.

if you want, i'll switch sides with you and take the viewpoint that the ten commandments should be on any government building.



ryantp Offline
#31 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2009
Posts: 4,567
Part of the reason this country was founded was to separate church and state. People seem to forget that. Bush and his religious right/zealots have DEFINITELY forgotten that.

This country should welcome ALL religions, not just christianity.
PMoreno349 Offline
#32 Posted:
Joined: 07-05-2002
Posts: 665
Jefferson was a free mason.
bloody spaniard Offline
#33 Posted:
Joined: 03-14-2003
Posts: 43,802
I was the 238,516 to "sign" the petition. Thanks Dan.

Moreno, so was GW & many other of the founding fathers.
I wouldn't be surprised if most of our present politicians were Masons ("Christian" idolaters), as well.
lofty1 Offline
#34 Posted:
Joined: 06-07-2004
Posts: 4,670
rick:
why just display only one religious artifact



because that "artifact" is still relevant in our laws as they currently exist. it's relevant in a court building. it's not like having a cross in every government building. i would have a problem with that.


"i thought the point was to disagree, debate, keep things lively, perhaps even learn something."


true. i just thought you were getting the wrong idea about what i was trying to say. you seemed to arguing against a point i never tried to make. forget i said what i said. debate on.
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#35 Posted:
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
lofty1

don't you find it easier to argue against a point not made. put words in someone's mouth and then argue about what they didn't say.

ain't i the tricky one.
usahog Offline
#36 Posted:
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
This thread is still going on??? LOL

Rick, please explain why it was ok to remove the Ten Commandments from the Alabama Federal Court, but it isn't an Issue to have the Ten Commandments in the Senate halls in Washington DC?? and all the other Biblical artifacts there of related to Christian Religion... why is that?? and why is there such an out pour even more so today against the Christian Religion?? so much so even Muslum Religion is making better tracks in Federal Courts then the Christian Religion???


I know the answer but the question is "Do You"? ;0)

Hog
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#37 Posted:
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
USAHOG

yes.
usahog Offline
#38 Posted:
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
ummmm Rick, you answered one question of the 4 asked from you?? not very debative this morning?

Hog
bloody spaniard Offline
#39 Posted:
Joined: 03-14-2003
Posts: 43,802
Hmmmmm, me very impressed with Hog's creative use of language. Paleface very clever like namesake, Hedgehog.
Him very debative too. Ugh!

Chief Tonguetied
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#40 Posted:
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
usahog

i counted one posed several different ways.

i don't approve of prayer during congress. let me rephrase that. many women scream oh god during intercourse.

i should have said i do not approve of any artifacts including those in the halls of congress. and as you can see, the ten commandments have been of no help in raising the morality of most of our representatives.

open prayer, that is prayer spoken outloud, is to impress other people. i don't think your god needs to hear the words anymore then he needed a goat sacrificed. that's the invention of man to prove how holy he is to other men.

if there were a god, what would he care about prayers to win a football game, and if he has inflicted a disease on someone, can your prayers to the inflicter make him remorseful so that he will change his mind and cure whoever he allowed to or made get sick in the first place.

i don't mean to imply that those who have made the leap of faith should leap backwards. you should maintain your faith and use prayer as you see fit.

just keep it to yourself.
lofty1 Offline
#41 Posted:
Joined: 06-07-2004
Posts: 4,670
"just keep it to yourself. "


and you see/hear folks that feel the need to assemble at a meeting/football game/street corner and you don't like it, just keep it to yourself. our country was built with the idea that these people have that right whenever they see fit. ignore it, and let them practice their religion. maybe, just maybe, they'll let you practice your religion when feel the need to do so. two-way streets are like that.
usahog Offline
#42 Posted:
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
Rick, you been watchin way to much TV..... Football games LOL...

as far as keeping my faith to myself... nope I enjoy sharing with others.. no matter how others percieve me...

as Billy points out... he is a christian, but not a very good one at it?? who is to Judge him? only God himself to be the Judge...

now as far as the reasoning behind the questions... It is easier to Denounce or Ignor God, then it is to keep the faith with him... Thus the corruption in the American Values ;0)

Hog
usahog Offline
#43 Posted:
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
Ok I'll add a threadjack here.... copied from Ricks Enjoy the Weekend Post ;0)~~~

26 Beautiful One-liners

1. Give God what's right -- not what's left.

2. Man's way leads to a hopeless end -- God's way leads to an

endless hope.

3. A lot of kneeling will keep you in good standing.

4. He who kneels before God can stand before anyone.

5. In the sentence of life, the devil may be a comma--but never let him

be the period.

6. Don't put a question mark where God puts a period.

7. Are you wrinkled with burden? Come to the church for a face-lift.

8. When praying, don't give God instructions - just report for duty.

9. Don't wait for six strong men to take you to church.

10. We don't change God's message -- His message changes us.

11. The church is prayer-conditioned.

12. When God ordains, He sustains.

13. WARNING: Exposure to the Son may prevent burning.

14. Plan ahead -- It wasn't raining when Noah built the ark.

15. Most people want to serve God, but only in an advisory position.

16. Suffering from truth decay? Brush up on your Bible.

17. Exercise daily -- walk with the Lord.

18. Never give the devil a ride -- he will always want to drive.

19. Nothing else ruins the truth like stretching it.

20. Compassion is difficult to give away because it keeps coming back.

21. He who angers you controls you.

22. Worry is the darkroom in which negatives can develop.

23. Give Satan an inch & he'll be a ruler.

24. Be ye fishers of men -- you catch them & He'll clean them.

25. God doesn't call the qualified, He qualifies the called.

26. Read the Bible -- It will scare the hell out of you.

Enjoy!!!!
Hog
Users browsing this topic
Guest