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tailgater Offline
#1 Posted: Fri, Jan 11 2002, 6:13 PM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
NYC has unveiled a memorial for the 9-11 tragedy. It is a Statue depicting the firefighters in the photograph raising the American Stars and Stripes. With one "minor" change: Two of the three Firefighters have facial features consistent with males of Hispanic and African decent, respectively. Voila! Instant Racial Diversity! Won't Jesse be proud!
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#2 Posted: Fri, Jan 11 2002, 7:22 PM EST
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
and your point is? aren't there hispanic and black fireman? one of the men that raised the flag at iwo was a native american and his features were on the statue
Charlie Offline
#3 Posted: Fri, Jan 11 2002, 7:50 PM EST
Joined: 06-16-2002
Posts: 39,751
I don't want to get into a racial thing here, but all of the firemen who raised that flag were WHITE (or is that Politically Incorrect, whoops take the flag down and find some ethnic diversity to raise it) and that is a fact! Too bad that they have to be PC when it comes to a monument for the disaster! Rick, are you talking about an American Indian when you say Native American? Just joking, I know what you meant! Charlie
Todog Offline
#4 Posted: Fri, Jan 11 2002, 8:24 PM EST
Joined: 05-05-2001
Posts: 804
It wouldn't surprise me if Jesse or Al Sharpton had something to do with it!
jjohnson28 Offline
#5 Posted: Fri, Jan 11 2002, 9:06 PM EST
Joined: 09-12-2000
Posts: 7,914
If this is true and they are using the photo or that scene in general as a model.I think it's truly sad what the PC crowd will do to cheapen,yes cheapen anything and everything this great country stands for.Joe could you possibly post your source?Thanks,Jim
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#6 Posted: Fri, Jan 11 2002, 11:53 PM EST
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
i think the whole point of this is idiotic. maybe the
the planners discussed this with the fireman and that was their decision. maybe the point was to represent the fire dept and it's diversity. do any of you know the racial mix of the men that died? i am going to contact the city of ny and find out. the hell with sharpton and jesse. i doubt that they have any input that anyone would listen to. if i find out i am wrong, i will print this thread and eat it. i may have ideas that many disagree with, but me politicly correct? not likely.
"Voila! Instant Racial Diversity! Won't Jesse be proud"
"It wouldn't surprise me if Jesse or Al Sharpton had something to do with it"
for this board, these two quotes are politicly correct.
Todog Offline
#7 Posted: Sat, Jan 12 2002, 3:04 AM EST
Joined: 05-05-2001
Posts: 804
Was that a compliment?
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#8 Posted: Sat, Jan 12 2002, 8:25 AM EST
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
?
JBG Offline
#9 Posted: Sat, Jan 12 2002, 12:03 PM EST
Joined: 01-21-2001
Posts: 145
I general memorial should be representative should include all involved, however, a memorial depicting a specific, historical event involving specific, identifiable people should be accurate, not comfortable.
delarob Offline
#10 Posted: Sat, Jan 12 2002, 12:48 PM EST
Joined: 06-28-2001
Posts: 5,318
Roman statues.
Charlie Offline
#11 Posted: Sat, Jan 12 2002, 3:51 PM EST
Joined: 06-16-2002
Posts: 39,751
I am sick and tired of Political Correctness! This monument should depict the three firemen who raised the flag, and I believe they were all white! Charlie
tailgater Offline
#12 Posted: Sat, Jan 12 2002, 6:59 PM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
Source: Hannity and Colmes on Fox News. A discussion with views from BOTH sides. The NYC Fire Department is comprised of less than 3% black and just over 3% Hispanic. Rick, my "Point" is this: I am not offended at a memorial depicting any and all ethnic backgrounds, but if we are so shallow as to REQUIRE diversity even where it didn't occur, then we should also include Asians, and Women, and perhaps we could also put some reference to homosexuality in the mix as well. And as for the department 'approving' the statue, apparently a small percentage of firefighters walked out of the unveiling ceremony. A bit extreme if you ask me, but that's the facts. Oh, and what would have happened if the three men who raised the flag were indeed Black, and the statue depicted a white guy?
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#13 Posted: Sat, Jan 12 2002, 7:49 PM EST
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
tailgater: i retract all my remarks about the statue. you are correct.
Charlie Offline
#14 Posted: Sun, Jan 13 2002, 11:47 AM EST
Joined: 06-16-2002
Posts: 39,751
I may be wrong, but I will bet the NYC Police Department has about the same percentages of white officers to hispanic and black officers! Charlie
Teninx Offline
#15 Posted: Mon, Jan 14 2002, 3:50 PM EST
Joined: 11-24-2001
Posts: 138
This memorial is a tribute to all firefighters, not only the three individuals who raised the flag. That photo of those three is now a part of our history and will be remembered as one of the great images of the 21st century. I'd be upset if someone tried to alter the original picture and use it as a tribute. I'm not upset that a recreation of that picture is altered.
tailgater Offline
#16 Posted: Mon, Jan 14 2002, 5:15 PM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
It isn't the statue itself that is upsetting. It is the fact that somebody felt it needed to be done. If you are that insecure with your morals and ethical values when it comes to fairness, then I can't help you.
bud451 Offline
#17 Posted: Tue, Jan 15 2002, 6:53 AM EST
Joined: 09-11-2010
Posts: 2,237
IMHO, the world would be a much better place if people were truthfull instead of being PC. I also think that being PC is an insult to any race, it's making racism thrive.
Charlie Offline
#18 Posted: Tue, Jan 15 2002, 7:03 AM EST
Joined: 06-16-2002
Posts: 39,751
I agree with Bud and could not have made the statement any better! F--k Political Correctness! Charlie
Teninx Offline
#19 Posted: Tue, Jan 15 2002, 5:11 PM EST
Joined: 11-24-2001
Posts: 138
I don't solicit or require your help to understand the issues. I am, however, interested your and others' points of view because the older I get, the more I find that I don't have a handle on absolute truth.
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#20 Posted: Tue, Jan 15 2002, 8:15 PM EST
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
Teninx: i'm not sure this site can handle anyone with a modicum of common sense. i believe we are all nuts.
the nice thing about messsage boards, unlike conversation, is that each gets to finish his thought without being interrupted. absolute truth? there is none. mathematics is the closest to it. try reading flatland, you will enjoy it.
http://www.geom.umn.edu/~banchoff/Flatland/
of course, anyone else is welcome to induldge.
tailgater Offline
#21 Posted: Wed, Jan 16 2002, 5:02 AM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
You don't need "absolute truth" to realize that the bastardization of this historic moment is not in the Best Interest of the Country. Again, I ask all: If the three firefighters happened to be black, and the statue depicted all three races, what would be the outcome? I already know the answer, but I'm curious if you can be so honest with yourself, because that's where it starts...
Charlie Offline
#22 Posted: Wed, Jan 16 2002, 6:31 AM EST
Joined: 06-16-2002
Posts: 39,751
In answer to the "what if" above....we all know what the screams and denouncements would be! Led by head cheerleader and crook Rev. Jesse Jackson! Charlie
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#23 Posted: Wed, Jan 16 2002, 7:47 AM EST
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
tailgater: i do believe teninx was talking about "absolute truth" on a more metaphysical level.
Teninx Offline
#24 Posted: Wed, Jan 16 2002, 10:55 AM EST
Joined: 11-24-2001
Posts: 138
Why do you infer that I am not honest with myself? You can't make that assessment fairly on the basis of what I've posted. My viewpoint is from a different basis. What's the purpose of the memorial? I think that it's an attempt to honor the courage and spirit of the firefighters and to give Americans a permanant reminder. We've seen the original picture. Frankly, I'm sure those guys aren't black, but other than that I don't know their ethnic background, although I'm sure that they are all American. The photo might be said to honor those guys individually, or it might stand for something far greater than the moment.If the memorial depicts asian and black firefighters, you may sat that it is a lie. I might say that it's a depiction of brave spirit in the NYFD.

And ahhhh....I never said that I was looking for an absolute truth. On the contrary. I said that don't have a handle on it.
Teninx Offline
#25 Posted: Wed, Jan 16 2002, 10:57 AM EST
Joined: 11-24-2001
Posts: 138
Thank you for the reference R.M. I'll look it up.
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#26 Posted: Wed, Jan 16 2002, 12:01 PM EST
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
Teninx: please tell us who you are going back at (like i just did) and what, pray tell, is the difference between "looking for and not having a handle
on?" also welcome aboard. this place needs another antagonist, i am getting tired.
Teninx Offline
#27 Posted: Wed, Jan 16 2002, 12:30 PM EST
Joined: 11-24-2001
Posts: 138
RICKAMAVIN, the reply was to tailgaiter. Thank you for the welcome. I am generally not antagonistic, merely tenacious. BTW, I visited the "Flatlander" site and I will keep it for later reading (Right now I'm reading "Mason & Dixon" and it's about as much as this poor brain can handle.
tailgater Offline
#28 Posted: Wed, Jan 16 2002, 3:07 PM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
Teninx, can you honestly say that an otherwise exact replica should have a Forced "Feel Good" Equality? How LOW have we come if we are too afraid to be honest? And I again ask: What if this were reversed?
Let's face it, until this statue I never once gave thought to which race those brave souls were. It is only now, after an idiotic attempt to be PC, that this has become a RACE issue.
Teninx Offline
#29 Posted: Wed, Jan 16 2002, 6:07 PM EST
Joined: 11-24-2001
Posts: 138
tailgater, of course you're thinking of it as a race issue, just as you beleive the memorial designers are doing. Otherwise, no one would care what race was portrayed by the statue but only see the bravery and spirit. This memorial is larger than the three guys rasing our flag. It's about the courage and honor and devotion to duty that's displayed by all firefighters.
How can that be stooping low?
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#30 Posted: Wed, Jan 16 2002, 10:45 PM EST
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
tailgator: watch out. i are not alone.
plabonte Offline
#31 Posted: Thu, Jan 17 2002, 11:57 AM EST
Joined: 09-11-2000
Posts: 2,131
I think a big drawback of being PC is that you are SO focused on saying/doing what is right you lose your creative thinking. Case in point: a memorial is being put up to honor the NYC fire department. Great. They want it to be something that all (or in this case three) groups of Americans can look at and aspire to. Great. But rather then being creative and coming up with something original they do the PC thing and cut and paste (pun intended). The picture itself is a memorial as is. Don't change it. If you want to have a more racially diverse memorial come up with a new one. Don't plagerize an existing one!
tailgater Offline
#32 Posted: Thu, Jan 17 2002, 2:22 PM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
Teninx, the "artist" who "designed" the statue DID think about race. That's my point! he/she felt obligated to show what they felt SHOULD BE, rather than what WAS. And you have yet to answer my question regarding what would happen if this were reversed. Which makes my point that much more valid, Thank you.
Teninx Offline
#33 Posted: Thu, Jan 17 2002, 5:04 PM EST
Joined: 11-24-2001
Posts: 138
tailgater, the same thing would happen. There would be an enormous hue and cry, but coming from another forum.
It's demonstrative of nothing to suppose a hypothetical situation and attempt to deduce an outcome, which is why I neglected to respond to that portion of your argument.

By the way, I've heard that the NYFD has decided not to erect the altered monument. Too much negative feedback from the public.

Wait till plans for the new memorial are revealed. Betcha it will be "conceptual art".
tailgater Offline
#34 Posted: Thu, Jan 17 2002, 5:25 PM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
I agree that it will be a vastly different approach should a new memorial be built. But I disagree regarding the ramifications of a "hypothetical" reversal. The outcry would not be the "fact vs fiction" arguement that is being currently embraced. It would simply be a cry of Racism. If anyone thinks otherwise, they are kidding themselves.
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#35 Posted: Thu, Jan 17 2002, 5:39 PM EST
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
bud451: in order not to be PC, let me say, your pants are too short and your tie doesn't match your suit.
PC "great outfit."
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#36 Posted: Thu, Jan 17 2002, 5:47 PM EST
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
Teninx: "infer" is the prerogative of the inferer.
"It's demonstrative of nothing to suppose a hypothetical situation and attempt to deduce an outcome" no it's not. it's what life is about. the psychological term is "role playing"
Teninx Offline
#37 Posted: Thu, Jan 17 2002, 6:04 PM EST
Joined: 11-24-2001
Posts: 138
RICKAMAVEN, speaking only in the contex of this argument, it's the same situation: the racial makeup of the three firemen would be changed. Prehaps a better question would be "If those firemen were black, would the NYFD even consider adding a white guy and an asian guy?" Of course we could never know for sure, but it would be an interesting debate.
bud451 Offline
#38 Posted: Fri, Jan 18 2002, 5:01 AM EST
Joined: 09-11-2010
Posts: 2,237
Ahhh...the Emperor's new clothes...thanks for the heads up.
tailgater Offline
#39 Posted: Fri, Jan 18 2002, 5:52 PM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
You worded the hypothetical better than I. And you know the answer is "no". No change would be proposed. It's disgusting that race is an issue here, when it was ALL of America that was attacked. It is my understanding that the three "white guys" had different ethnic backgrounds: Italian, German and Irish. Why not Polish, or French? Just let the TRUTH be your guide. It's never wrong.
Todog Offline
#40 Posted: Fri, Jan 18 2002, 7:41 PM EST
Joined: 05-05-2001
Posts: 804
Some people can't handle the truth!!!!Jack Nicholson
tailgater Offline
#41 Posted: Sun, Jan 20 2002, 5:32 PM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
"Honesty is such a lonely word" Billy Joel
Dishman Offline
#42 Posted: Mon, Jan 21 2002, 6:50 AM EST
Joined: 08-25-2007
Posts: 299
Like my father always told me, "don't ask the question if your not prepared for the answer". I also agree that being politically correct, regardless of the circumstances, benefits no one.
Charlie Offline
#43 Posted: Mon, Jan 28 2002, 2:30 PM EST
Joined: 06-16-2002
Posts: 39,751
"A man should know his weaknesses", Harry Callahan
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