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You Worry Me......
TMCTLT Offline
#1 Posted:
Joined: 11-22-2007
Posts: 19,733
I don't know how many if any have seen / read this and while it is lengthy it IS very well written and worth the read IMHO.



CANADIAN & AUSTRALIAN COMMENT

APPEARS AT THE END OF THE ARTICLE
THERE IS ALSO SOME RECENTLY ADDED BRITISH COMMENT.


This pilot hit the nail right on the head in his open letter.

The paper stated that some Muslim doctor is saying we are profiling him because he has been checked three times while getting on an
airplane. The following is a letter from a pilot.This well spoken man, who is a pilot with American Airlines, says what is in his heart,
beautifully....

- Read, absorb.......and pass this on.





YOU WORRY ME!
By Captain John Maniscalco, American Airlines Pilot

I've been trying to say this since 911, but you worry me. I wish you didn't. I wish when I walked down the streets of this country that I love, that your color and culture still blended with the beautiful human landscape we enjoy in this country. But you don't blend in anymore. I notice you, and it worries me.

I notice you because I can't help it anymore. People from your homelands, professing to be Muslims, have been attacking and killing my fellow citizens and our friends for more than 20 years now. I don't fully understand their grievances and hate, but I know that nothing can justify the inhumanity of their attacks.

On September 11, ARAB-MUSLIMS hijacked four jetliners in my country. They cut the throats of women in front of children and brutally stabbed to death others. They took control of those planes and crashed them into buildings, killing thousands of proud fathers, loving sons, wise grandparents, elegant daughters, best friends, favorite coaches, fearless public servants, and children's mothers.

The Palestinians celebrated, the Iraqis were overjoyed as was most of the Arab world. So, I notice you now. I don't want to be worried. I don't want to be consumed by the same rage, hate and prejudice that has destroyed the soul of these terrorists. But I need your help. As a rational American, trying to protect my country and family in an irrational and unsafe world, I must know how to tell the difference between you, and the Arab/Muslim terrorist.

How do I differentiate between the true Arab/Muslim Americans and the Arab/Muslim terrorists in our communities who are attending our schools, enjoying our parks, and living in OUR communities under the protection of OUR constitution, while they plot the next attack that will slaughter MORE of the same good neighbors and children?

The events of September 11 changed the answer. It is not MY responsibility to determine which of you embraces our great country, with ALL of its religions, with ALL of its different citizens, with all of its faults. It is time for every Arab/Muslim in this country to determine it for me. I want to know, I DEMAND to know and I have a right to know, whether or not you love America ... Do you pledge allegiance to its flag? Do you proudly display it in front of your house, or on your car? Do you pray in your many daily prayers that
Allah will bless this nation; that He will protect it and let it prosper? Or do you pray that Allah with destroy it in one of your Jihads? Are you thankful for the freedom that this nation affords? A freedom that was paid for by the blood of hundreds of thousands of patriots who gave their lives for this country? Are you willing to preserve this freedom by also paying the ultimate sacrifice? Do you love America? ? If this is your commitment, then I need YOU to start letting ME know about it.

Your Muslim leaders in this nation should be flooding the media at this time with hard facts on your faith, and what hard actions YOU are taking as a community and as a religion to protect the United States of America . Please, no more benign overtures of regret for the death of the innocent, because I worry about who you regard as innocent.... No more benign overtures of condemnation for the unprovoked attacks,
because I worry about what is unprovoked to you. I am not interested in any more sympathy; I am interested only in action. What will you do for America - our great country - at this time of crisis, at this time of war?

I want to see Arab-Muslims waving the AMERICAN flag in the streets. I want to hear you chanting 'Allah Bless America'. I want to see young Arab/Muslim men enlisting in the military. I want to see a commitment of money, time and emotion to the victims of this butchering and to this nation as a whole.

The FBI has a list of over 400 people they want to talk to regarding the WTC attack. Many of these people live and socialize right now in Muslim communities. You know them. You know where they are. Hand them over to us, NOW! But I have seen little even approaching this sort of action. Instead I have seen an already closed and secretive community close even tighter. You have disappeared from the streets. You have
posted armed security guards at your facilities. You have threatened lawsuits. You have screamed for protection from reprisals.

The very few Arab/Muslim representatives that HAVE appeared in the media were defensive and equivocating. They seemed more concerned with making sure that the United States proves who was responsible before taking action. They seemed more concerned with protecting their fellow
Muslims from violence directed towards them in the United States and abroad than they did with supporting our country and denouncing 'leaders' like Khadafi, Hussein, Farrakhan, and Arafat.

IF the true teachings of Islam proclaim tolerance and peace and love for all people, then I want chapter and verse from the Koran and statements from popular Muslim leaders to back it up. What good is it if the teachings in the Koran are good, pure, and true, when your 'leaders' ARE teaching fanatical interpretations, terrorism, and intolerance? It matters little how good Islam SHOULD BE if huge numbers of the world's Muslims interpret the teachings of Mohammed incorrectly and adhere to a degenerative form of the religion.

A form that has been demonstrated to us over and over again. A form whose structure is built upon a foundation of violence, death, and suicide.
A form whose members are recruited from the prisons around the world. A form whose members (some as young as five years old) are seen day after day, week in and week out, year after year, marching in the streets around the world, burning effigies of our presidents, burning the American flag, shooting weapons into the air.

A form whose members convert from a peaceful religion, only to take up arms against the
great United States of America, the country of their birth. A form whose rules are so twisted, that their traveling members refuse to show their faces at airport security checkpoints, in the name of Islam.

We will NEVER allow the attacks of September 11, or any others for that matter, to take away that which is so precious to us – our rights under the greatest constitution in the world. I want to know where every Arab Muslim in this country stands and I think it is my right and the right of every true citizen of this country to DEMAND it. A right paid for by the blood of thousands of my brothers and sisters who died protecting the very constitution that is protecting you and your family.

I am pleading with you to let me know. I want you here as my brother, my neighbor, my friend, as a fellow American..... But there can be no gray areas or ambivalence regarding your allegiance, and it is up to YOU, to show ME, where YOU stand. Until then, "YOU WORRY ME!"

CANADIAN COMMENTS:
I totally agree with this sentiment. I hope you will forget all about the 'political correctness' mandate we've had rammed down our throats, and see if this doesn't ring true in your heart and mind. For Canada , with all the multiculturalism we've been told is so important....why should we not, as Canadians, expect that the millions of new people immigrating to our country will show their love for our country, their allegiance to our country, their willingness to obey the laws of our country, and acceptance that we are a Christian country? Just because they are able to enjoy exercising their own religion, they should NOT expect us to be ashamed of ours. They knew Canada was a Christian country when they came here. Why are we erasing Christianity because immigrants who are unwilling to adopt our way of life expect us to?
There is just too much insanity in the world, and we have to start taking a stand.

I hope you will forward this, so that others will feel they are not alone if they are starting to feel the same.

BRITISH COMMENTS:

At last a clear non racist example of the concerns that the vast majority of our Nations population probably share. The pilot's letter encapsulates all that is fair and just about national pride and protection of one's national culture. I fear it may be too late here in UK, BUT we too want our country back in the form that attracted all these different cultures to come here in the first place!! In all our conversations with a wide range of friends and acquaintances we have not met one that disagrees with our own views. If only we all had the courage of our convictions to pass this on, it is a statement that should be accepted as the heart-felt feelings of someone with honest commendable national pride.



AUSTRALIAN COMMENTS:

It is exactly the same "DOWN UNDER" in that our culture is being destroyed not by militant & extreme Muslims but by our own politically correct "do gooders" who somehow have elected themselves to a position whereby they can create unwanted change under a cloak of anonimity.The silent majority is not apathetic but does not understand how to react to regain our lost position before it is too late.

WE, THE PEOPLE HAVE TO TAKE A STAND. WE HAVE TO DO WHAT IS NEEDED TO BE DONE, FOR OUR GOVERNMENT/S HAVE NO BACKBONE. THE GOODY-DO-GOODERS HAVE NEAR CRIPPLED THIS COUNTRY WITH SO MANY IDOTIC IDEAS, THAT THE COUNTRY IS DOOMED, UNLESS ACTION IS SOON TAKEN. IN 20 TO 25 YEARS OUR AUSTRALIA WILL BE NO LONGER. BELIEVE THAT OR NOT.. IT IS SO TRUE.

TOO GOOD TO JUST READ AND DELETE -- LET'S SATURATE NEW ZEALAND, AUSTRALIA, UK,
EUROPE, USA, CANADA AND THE REST OF THE FREE WORLD WITH THIS ONE!

MAY GOD BLESS THOSE WHO HAD THE COURAGE TO WRITE THE ABOVE AND MAY GOD
BLESS THOSE WHO READ AND PASS THIS ON AND MAY GOD BLESS THOSE WHO WILL HELP STOP THE INSANITY!


It is about time that governments and do gooders listened to what the majority of British/CANADAN/AUSTRALIAN citizens feel.



donutboy2000 Offline
#2 Posted:
Joined: 11-20-2001
Posts: 25,000
http://www.snopes.com/rumors/soapbox/worryme.asp
TMCTLT Offline
#3 Posted:
Joined: 11-22-2007
Posts: 19,733
donutboy2000 wrote:
http://www.snopes.com/rumors/soapbox/worryme.asp



And your point is? This was not proven to be a falsehood nor is it vitriolic as your Snopes article would have you think. The article/ letter still is spot on in regards to the Muslim community not calling out the radicals that live / breath and enjoy the freedoms that Our country affords them. They know they're here and do nothing to flush them out nor denounce their radicalism.
mtbat21 Offline
#4 Posted:
Joined: 10-31-2010
Posts: 26
Think Something to think about, their actions speak louder than words.
rfenst Offline
#5 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,360
TMCTLT wrote:
And your point is? This was not proven to be a falsehood nor is it vitriolic as your Snopes article would have you think. The article/ letter still is spot on in regards to the Muslim community not calling out the radicals that live / breath and enjoy the freedoms that Our country affords them. They know they're here and do nothing to flush them out nor denounce their radicalism.


They can denounce all they want. Think it will mean anything in terms of fear and concern? Isn't this still a country where our religious beliefs are private? What method and degree of renouncement will suffice to make people more comfortable? How does the concept of "innocent until proven guilty" fit into this? For the sake of discussion, what say you?
mtbat21 Offline
#6 Posted:
Joined: 10-31-2010
Posts: 26
Innocence or guilt in a crime is left to a jury, but suspects are questioned in order to decide whether or not to procceed to trial, you can't do that if the "community" hides the suspects.
frankj1 Offline
#7 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,223
mtbat21 wrote:
Innocence or guilt in a crime is left to a jury, but suspects are questioned in order to decide whether or not to procceed to trial, you can't do that if the "community" hides the suspects.

innocence is presumed. only guilt must be proven, thank G-d.
frankj1 Offline
#8 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,223
rfenst wrote:
They can denounce all they want. Think it will mean anything in terms of fear and concern? Isn't this still a country where our religious beliefs are private? What method and degree of renouncement will suffice to make people more comfortable? How does the concept of "innocent until proven guilty" fit into this? For the sake of discussion, what say you?

I agree that no amount of renouncement by American Muslims will do much to alter thought processes in the minds of the public in this country, but I have hopes that a global public outcry from the international community of moderate Muslims (hopefully) majority might lead to minimizing the threat the radicals pose world wide. Regrettably, they are holding their tongues, maybe in fear of having them cut off!

Yes, I still firmly believe this is a country where religious beliefs should be respected, allowed, and private...and now is the classic time in which our lip service about rights is tested. Talking about "rights and freedoms" is easy during easy times, but does the talk hold up to the acid test? I hope so, I doubt it though.

Frank
rfenst Offline
#9 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,360
frankj1 wrote:
innocence is presumed. only guilt must be proven, thank G-d.



I just don't understand the comment you replied to.
frankj1 Offline
#10 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,223
rfenst wrote:
I just don't understand the comment you replied to.

sorry, a few thoughts remained behind in my head. The short answer is technically juries only decide if guilt is proven. Guess that's pretty obvious.

But I was really responding to #6's response to your #5 questions. what was left unwritten was my constant fear of witch hunts and abandonment of our norms re rights and the legal system. many are only too willing to suspend protections when crises and fears are high, like the last decade. or like WWII and Japanese Americans being held...out the window goes the presumption of innocence and far too many are far too comfortable with that due to fears. It is a very real time of testing and I am not above that either.

I understand yet fear people being dragged in as suspects when what makes them suspicious is the way they look.

What did you think I meant?
HockeyDad Offline
#11 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,163
frankj1 wrote:
what was left unwritten was my constant fear of witch hunts and abandonment of our norms re rights and the legal system. many are only too willing to suspend protections when crises and fears are high, like the last decade. or like WWII and Japanese Americans being held...out the window goes the presumption of innocence and far too many are far too comfortable with that due to fears. It is a very real time of testing and I am not above that either.

I understand yet fear people being dragged in as suspects when what makes them suspicious is the way they look.



Oh come on......it works for Israel!
frankj1 Offline
#12 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,223
HockeyDad wrote:
Oh come on......it works for Israel!

Sadly they really aren't the 51st state...yet. Ha.

I thought you'd be intrigued by my inclusion of Muslims in the population covered by our rights and freedoms. Contrary to what you think I believe, I am not ant-Islam.

Feels warm inside to be baited again, thanks.

Frank
TMCTLT Offline
#13 Posted:
Joined: 11-22-2007
Posts: 19,733
frankj1 wrote:
I agree that no amount of renouncement by American Muslims will do much to alter thought processes in the minds of the public in this country, but I have hopes that a global public outcry from the international community of moderate Muslims (hopefully) majority might lead to minimizing the threat the radicals pose world wide. Regrettably, they are holding their tongues, maybe in fear of having them cut off!

Yes, I still firmly believe this is a country where religious beliefs should be respected, allowed, and private...and now is the classic time in which our lip service about rights is tested. Talking about "rights and freedoms" is easy during easy times, but does the talk hold up to the acid test? I hope so, I doubt it though.

Frank




I believe this as well, however when their rights are protected more strictly than others I have a REAL problem with that. And that is exactly the case in Dearborn, MI. when a group of christian students stood outside of a Muslim festival peacefully offering pamphlets to any one passing by. The video of the incident will clarify who's rights are being defended and whose are cast aside.


http://taralynnthompson.blogspot.com/2010/06/christians-arrested-in-michigan-for.html
rfenst Offline
#14 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,360
frankj1 wrote:
What did you think I meant?


i understood what you ment, just not what mtbat21 wrote. What does it mean?
rfenst Offline
#15 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,360
frankj1 wrote:
Feels warm inside to be baited again, thanks.


A mere mortal would have taken the bait. HD would have pushed full throttle.
And then, who the hell knows where this thread would end up after another 20-25 posts!
HockeyDad Offline
#16 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,163
Whistle


I like that what we fear happening here we encourage and fund happening elsewhere!
rfenst Offline
#17 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,360
TMCTLT wrote:
I believe this as well, however when their rights are protected more strictly than others I have a REAL problem with that. And that is exactly the case in Dearborn, MI. when a group of christian students stood outside of a Muslim festival peacefully offering pamphlets to any one passing by. The video of the incident will clarify who's rights are being defended and whose are cast aside.


http://taralynnthompson.blogspot.com/2010/06/christians-arrested-in-michigan-for.html



The rights of religious freedom and the freedom to demonstrate in public by handing out pamphlets on public property- are two distinctly different rights. They were inappropriately combined in that video to insinuate that Dearborn is pro-Islam/anti-Christian and that Sharia, rather than U.S. law, is given preferential deference. Maybe that is the way things really are there, but that video does nothing to prove it.

The entire video- all the way to the point where the guy said he was finally far enough away from the festival to be in compliance- had nothing at all to do with his Christian message. Instead, it has to do with demonstrating in the right place and at the right time.

Both common sense and the law dictate that freedom to demonstrate by handing out pamphlets in a public place-is never absolute. It can be controlled or restricted whenever and wherever there is a compelling government interest and narrowly tailored/least restrictive means. I did not see the cops read or review the pamphlet contents. We didn't hear anything substantive stated by any of the officers about the pamphlet contents either. So, it doesn't look like anything shown in that video was pro-Arab or Muslim/anti-Christian- in any way at all.

Perhaps the pamphleteers should have just simply applied for a permit to stand there and express themselves- but we both know that is not what they wanted to do. Instead, they just wanted to show the police telling them to move elsewhere and twist it to mean something completely different. Kind of the exact same thing Michael Moore does so well to try to entertain people.

Now, I do agree that the reaction by the police and the number of officers immediately involved, came quick- almost spooky-quick, but that doesn't surprise me one bit when I think about it. It simply looked like a squad of officers assigned to make certain to protect a large crowd of fair-goers and others in a public place. Nothing wrong with that. To have done or planned otherwise would have been irresponsible.

The only thing possibly wrong was the officer blocking the camera lens. I do not know if that is legal or not, and have not really considered the matter- because there was never any complaint that sights or sounds were missed as a result of the officer's actions. Certainly, however, one can't claim it constituted censorship without first showing the officer knew the contents of the pamphlets.

The rest of the video shows three different people standing on three different Dearborn street corners, proclaiming they will be arrested at those corners because of the content of their pamphlets. This, in and of itself, does not make their proclamations to be true- no matter how many people do and say the exact same thing at as many different corners possible. Maybe, better put: "Just because they said so doesn't necessarily make it true." It very well may be true. They just didn't prove it.
frankj1 Offline
#18 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,223
HockeyDad wrote:
Whistle


I like that what we fear happening here we encourage and fund happening elsewhere!

I must be missing the giant news stories about Israel snagging Israeli citizens off the street because they meet "profiles" and the funding we expressly provide to do so. Robert is correct, so I will not enter a prolonged fruitless debate on such a claim about a foreign country.

But staying on topic, as a member of a people that has managed to survive similar repeated govenmentally encouraged actions. I object to it happening here for the simple reason that it is a very bad precedent. Who knows what group may be in power here in the future and who their idea of what constitutes a threat may comprise. If Muslims ever make up 60% of our government I would be against them pulling you in without any more reason than your skin and your version of the bible. I assume your support of me and mine in the same scenario.
frankj1 Offline
#19 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,223
rfenst wrote:
i understood what you ment, just not what mtbat21 wrote. What does it mean?

hmm, not sure. But I hope it did not mean that the "community" should be hauled in for questioning.
TMCTLT Offline
#20 Posted:
Joined: 11-22-2007
Posts: 19,733
rfenst wrote:
The rights of religious freedom and the freedom to demonstrate in public by handing out pamphlets on public property- are two distinctly different rights. They were inappropriately combined in that video to insinuate that Dearborn is pro-Islam/anti-Christian and that Sharia, rather than U.S. law, is given preferential deference. Maybe that is the way things really are there, but that video does nothing to prove it.

The entire video- all the way to the point where the guy said he was finally far enough away from the festival to be in compliance- had nothing at all to do with his Christian message. Instead, it has to do with demonstrating in the right place and at the right time.

Both common sense and the law dictate that freedom to demonstrate by handing out pamphlets in a public place-is never absolute. It can be controlled or restricted whenever and wherever there is a compelling government interest and narrowly tailored/least restrictive means. I did not see the cops read or review the pamphlet contents. We didn't hear anything substantive stated by any of the officers about the pamphlet contents either. So, it doesn't look like anything shown in that video was pro-Arab or Muslim/anti-Christian- in any way at all.

Perhaps the pamphleteers should have just simply applied for a permit to stand there and express themselves- but we both know that is not what they wanted to do. Instead, they just wanted to show the police telling them to move elsewhere and twist it to mean something completely different. Kind of the exact same thing Michael Moore does so well to try to entertain people.

Now, I do agree that the reaction by the police and the number of officers immediately involved, came quick- almost spooky-quick, but that doesn't surprise me one bit when I think about it. It simply looked like a squad of officers assigned to make certain to protect a large crowd of fair-goers and others in a public place. Nothing wrong with that. To have done or planned otherwise would have been irresponsible.

The only thing possibly wrong was the officer blocking the camera lens. I do not know if that is legal or not, and have not really considered the matter- because there was never any complaint that sights or sounds were missed as a result of the officer's actions. Certainly, however, one can't claim it constituted censorship without first showing the officer knew the contents of the pamphlets.

The rest of the video shows three different people standing on three different Dearborn street corners, proclaiming they will be arrested at those corners because of the content of their pamphlets. This, in and of itself, does not make their proclamations to be true- no matter how many people do and say the exact same thing at as many different corners possible. Maybe, better put: "Just because they said so doesn't necessarily make it true." It very well may be true. They just didn't prove it.



Rfenst, With all due respect sir it IS your profession who has manipulated and interpreted our Constitution for decades and turned this wonderful country into the abysmal mess that it is. I'm not at all surprised that this is how you see it. Those folks were doing nothing wrong other than proving that they have limited rights while others are defended. It wasn't a Mob....they weren't disrespectful or inciting trouble. The police had no problem gleaning as much information from the three as possible.....how much do they know of the folks they so vehemently defended. That being said I'd still like to meet you and smoke a cigar......
HockeyDad Offline
#21 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,163
frankj1 wrote:
I must be missing the giant news stories about Israel snagging Israeli citizens off the street because they meet "profiles" and the funding we expressly provide to do so. Robert is correct, so I will not enter a prolonged fruitless debate on such a claim about a foreign country.

But staying on topic, as a member of a people that has managed to survive similar repeated govenmentally encouraged actions. I object to it happening here for the simple reason that it is a very bad precedent. Who knows what group may be in power here in the future and who their idea of what constitutes a threat may comprise. If Muslims ever make up 60% of our government I would be against them pulling you in without any more reason than your skin and your version of the bible. I assume your support of me and mine in the same scenario.





It doesn't make giant news stories but it is covered and administrative detention orders and the emergency powers law.

We actually have some of the same authority here through the Patriot Act although not nearly as expansive in the duration of detention. We also have a bunch of neat FEMA detention camps already built and maintained. Eventually the USA will use them. I don't expect they'll be used just because of skin or versions of the Bible.

If the Muslims ever made up 60% of our government, here is a hint........CONVERT!
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#22 Posted:
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
TMCTLT


"Rfenst, With all due respect sir it IS your profession
who has manipulated and interpreted our Constitution
for decades and turned this wonderful country into the
abysmal mess that it is."

who appointed scalia, roberts and thomas to the
supreme court, regean, gw bush, and the young prince.

with any luck, thomas will be investigated and
impeached, scalia will show more signs of dementia,
and he will be asked to go fishing or hunting and stop
pretending he is a lawyer.

law·yer (lô“y…r) n. One whose profession is to give
legal advice and assistance to clients and represent
them in court or in other legal matters. (note it says legal
matters, not political or social matters.)

scalia has shown his lack of respect for the law by his
refusual to excuse himself from ruling on cases where
he has a personal relationship with one of the litigants.

if he excused hinself, thomas would have no one he
could copy a ruling from.

these and the people who appointed them are one of the
cause's of the coup d'é·tats that have taken place in my
lifetime, starting with the cold blooded murder of JFK.

do you think the founding father's envisioned a time
when a cabal of wealthy business owners could
secretly buy any elected office because of the amount
of money they could give a chosen candidate, to buy his
seat in the congress or the senate.

that is why we have (9%+) unemployment and never
again will anyone but a WASP sit in the oval office.

if you think it is bad now, if obama gets reelected, you
ain't seen nothin yet.




as an aside and before i forget, cheney was and still is a
war criminal. i hope he visits one of the countries in
europe that are waiting with open arms to arrest and try
him for his war crimes.
rfenst Offline
#23 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,360
TMCTLT wrote:
Rfenst, With all due respect sir it IS your profession who has manipulated and interpreted our Constitution for decades and turned this wonderful country into the abysmal mess that it is. I'm not at all surprised that this is how you see it. Those folks were doing nothing wrong other than proving that they have limited rights while others are defended. It wasn't a Mob....they weren't disrespectful or inciting trouble. The police had no problem gleaning as much information from the three as possible.....how much do they know of the folks they so vehemently defended. That being said I'd still like to meet you and smoke a cigar......



Instead of deflecting your attack towards lawyers and bootstrapping me into your unsupported allegation, why not simply refute what I said with your thoughts, point by point, if necessary?

Claiming that manipulation and interpretation of law is what "turned this wonderful country into a mess" so you aren't surprised that I see things differently than you do- is an utter, total, meaningless cop-out. Even worse,It blatantly pulls at the heart-strings that relate to other problems our country has- rather than the issue at hand. most important, it is an ad homonym abusive attack against lawyers and, by intended extension, myself . This topic and discussion has absolutely nothing at all to do with lawyers. Why go there?

The people in your video were definitely doing something wrong and disrespectful. They deliberately and insensitively violated the private, religious laws of other people- who were simply minding their own business. And, they did incite trouble- although thankfully not a free-for all, mob or riot, but trouble nonetheless. Who in their right mind intentionally wastes and diverts law enforcement resources and attention solely for the purpose of making a video. Not cool. Not right. Dead WRONG! You agree, right?

Look, I truly didn't see a single thing that even suggested that the content of the message in the pamphlets had ANYTHING to do with the people being told to move elsewhere to hand-out pamphlets. If you did, then please describe or show me where. Can you?

The only thing that video proved was that the pamphleteers were asked to move elsewhere and that three people claimed they could be arrested in Dearborn. There was no reference to any specific law, let alone any law favoring Islam over Christianity. If there is, pleas point it out to me in the video!

Why didn't they just apply for a permit,like I am certain the festival had to? That would have solved the very problem they manufactured for themselves, wouldn't it?
HockeyDad Offline
#24 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,163
RICKAMAVEN wrote:

do you think the founding father's envisioned a time
when a cabal of wealthy business owners could
secretly buy any elected office because of the amount
of money they could give a chosen candidate, to buy his
seat in the congress or the senate.





Of course they did. A large portion of the founding fathers were Illuminati. The game is rigged. You just happen to believe one side is good and righteous and the other is evil yet your good and righteous side always let you down.
donutboy2000 Offline
#25 Posted:
Joined: 11-20-2001
Posts: 25,000
RICKAMAVEN wrote:
TMCTLT



as an aside and before i forget, cheney was and still is a
war criminal.





.

IMPEACH THE



WAR



CRIMINAL



OBAMA



NOW!!!!
TMCTLT Offline
#26 Posted:
Joined: 11-22-2007
Posts: 19,733
rfenst wrote:
Instead of deflecting your attack towards lawyers and bootstrapping me into your unsupported allegation, why not simply refute what I said with your thoughts, point by point, if necessary?

Claiming that manipulation and interpretation of law is what "turned this wonderful country into a mess" so you aren't surprised that I see things differently than you do- is an utter, total, meaningless cop-out. Even worse,It blatantly pulls at the heart-strings that relate to other problems our country has- rather than the issue at hand. most important, it is an ad homonym abusive attack against lawyers and, by intended extension, myself . This topic and discussion has absolutely nothing at all to do with lawyers. Why go there?

The people in your video were definitely doing something wrong and disrespectful. They deliberately and insensitively violated the private, religious laws
of other people- who were simply minding their own business. And, they did incite trouble- although thankfully not a free-for all, mob or riot, but trouble nonetheless. Who in their right mind intentionally wastes and diverts law enforcement resources and attention solely for the purpose of making a video. Not cool. Not right. Dead WRONG! You agree, right?

Look, I truly didn't see a single thing that even suggested that the content of the message in the pamphlets had ANYTHING to do with the people being told to move elsewhere to hand-out pamphlets. If you did, then please describe or show me where. Can you?

The only thing that video proved was that the pamphleteers were asked to move elsewhere and that three people claimed they could be arrested in Dearborn. There was no reference to any specific law, let alone any law favoring Islam over Christianity. If there is, pleas point it out to me in the video!

Why didn't they just apply for a permit,like I am certain the festival had to? That would have solved the very problem they manufactured for themselves, wouldn't it?



It's true like it or not, there's a reason your profession is not so well embraced. And because folks like yourself see things differently than myself and you studied LAW makes your viewpoint correct every time yes? Let agree on one thing, there have and will continue to be many unsavory things done in the name of the law.

So let me get this straight, your saying they were ran off after law enforcement gleaned as much info from them as possible because they didn't have a permit? Secondly how in Gods creation did they violate any religious laws here? Private ? It was a festival....the Only mistake they made was being so obvious while trying to film the reaction of law enforcement once someone complained. Here in Indpls. derelicts from Farakan's organization step out / block traffic on one of the most traveled roads here in town.....no problem and I'm certain they have No permit. One other problem you folks who represent the Law seem to have, you think your the only ones in your right mind......Brick wall If you feel personally offended and "bootstrapped" because of my comments...that's your problem not mine.
rfenst Offline
#27 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,360
TMCTLT wrote:
It's true like it or not, there's a reason your profession is not so well embraced. And because folks like yourself see things differently than myself and you studied LAW makes your viewpoint correct every time yes? Let agree on one thing, there have and will continue to be many unsavory things done in the name of the law.

So let me get this straight, your saying they were ran off after law enforcement gleaned as much info from them as possible because they didn't have a permit? Secondly how in Gods creation did they violate any religious laws here? Private ? It was a festival....the Only mistake they made was being so obvious while trying to film the reaction of law enforcement once someone complained. Here in Indpls. derelicts from Farakan's organization step out / block traffic on one of the most traveled roads here in town.....no problem and I'm certain they have No permit. One other problem you folks who represent the Law seem to have, you think your the only ones in your right mind......Brick wall If you feel personally offended and "bootstrapped" because of my comments...that's your problem not mine.




Pamphleteering on public property is not an absolute right. It is always subject to reasonable restrictions when there is a compelling state interest.

The people in your video knew exactly what they were doing when they did it, and they had a specific reason for doing it. They planned it out well in advance. They accomplished exactly what they set out to do. They did not make any mistake.

Passing out Christian (or any other religion's) liturgy to those of another religion, knowing perfectly well that doing so is an affront to those of the other religion, is wrong. It is not a proper way to treat others. It is, at the very least, disrespectful, whether or not there is a complaint. Moreover, what the people in your video did violates Islamic law, per your very video.

Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see or hear anyone in your video complain. However, even if someone did and I simply missed it, that still has nothing to do with any of this. Neither does whatever Rev. Farrakhan's people do in your town. It was not part of the video. It does not take place in Dearborn. Your bringing it up after the fact just "muddies the waters" even more.

last, but certainly not least, slurring one you are "arguing" with (ad hominem abusive) does not prove that person's opinion, statemen(s) of fact or conclusion(s) to be wrong.

The last word to me on any of this is yours...
HockeyDad Offline
#28 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,163
rfenst wrote:


Who in their right mind intentionally wastes and diverts law enforcement resources and attention solely for the purpose of making a video. Not cool. Not right. Dead WRONG! You agree, right?



You mean like every single protest in the history of the USA since the camera was invented? I can only imagine the amount of law enforcement wasted and diverted during the 1960s civil rights movements.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#29 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,507
I sleep just fine wrapped in the protection of the Patriot Act.Frying pan
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#30 Posted:
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
MVD

HOW DID YOU SLEEP BEFORE THE PATRIOT ACT?
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#31 Posted:
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
Christians arrested in Michigan for handing out pamphlets
outside Arab festival

IS THIS THE VIDEO YOU GUYS ARE TALKING ABOUT.

I WANT THOSE COPS AROUND WHEN THESE RELIGIOUS
GROUPS, ANY RELIGIOUS GROUPS KNOCK ON MY DOOR
AND WAKE ME ON A SUNDAY BEFORE NOON.

DO YOU REMEMBER TOM LEHRER? IF YOU DON'T WHERE
HAVE YOU BEEN?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUwbZ9AlSPI

DrMaddVibe Offline
#32 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,507
RICKAMAVEN wrote:
MVD

HOW DID YOU SLEEP BEFORE THE PATRIOT ACT?


Like a baby.
TMCTLT Offline
#33 Posted:
Joined: 11-22-2007
Posts: 19,733
rfenst wrote:
Pamphleteering on public property is not an absolute right. It is always subject to reasonable restrictions when there is a compelling state interest. Please read here : If we cannot charge a fee your not doing it!!

The people in your video knew exactly what they were doing when they did it, and they had a specific reason for doing it. They planned it out well in advance. They accomplished exactly what they set out to do. They did not make any mistake. Of course they knew what they were doing, it was a fact finding mission on rather our Laws give equal tolerance to our Constitutional rights.

Passing out Christian (or any other religion's) liturgy to those of another religion, knowing perfectly well that doing so is an affront to those of the other religion, is wrong. It is not a proper way to treat others. It is, at the very least, disrespectful, whether or not there is a complaint. Moreover, what the people in your video did violates Islamic law, per your very video. [h]Last I checked this is the United States, we don't abide by Islamic Law....

Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see or hear anyone in your video complain. However, even if someone did and I simply missed it, that still has nothing to do with any of this. Neither does whatever Rev. Farrakhan's people do in your town. It was not part of the video. It does not take place in Dearborn. Your bringing it up after the fact just "muddies the waters" even more.

last, but certainly not least, slurring one you are "arguing" with (ad hominem abusive) does not prove that person's opinion, statemen(s) of fact or conclusion(s) to be wrong. Robert this was / is not a personal affront on you and I'm sorry your profession is as unsavory as it is, however if you want to look @ all that is wrong about our country an Attorney (who's manipulated the word of the law) is behind it.

The last word to me on any of this is yours...




Ok, I've changed my mind I'd rather smoke a cigar with a snake. At least he cannot help what he is or does....
Your profession should try talking to people so as NOT to intentionally deceive or evade in an attempt make them feel less intelligent by constantly creating / using verbiage only you understand.
They should also try NOT making laws and different Bills so lengthy in content that NOONE is willing to read them.
Definition

ver·bi·age
NOUN
1.
excess of words: an excess of words that add little or nothing to the meaning
2.
wording: the style of language in which something is expressed
"bureaucratic verbiage"
frankj1 Offline
#34 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,223
HockeyDad wrote:
You mean like every single protest in the history of the USA since the camera was invented? I can only imagine the amount of law enforcement wasted and diverted during the 1960s civil rights movements.

not sure I agree that the Civil Rights movement was a photo op requiring wasted law enforcement. strange analogy to this case.
HockeyDad Offline
#35 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,163
Would you prefer anti-Vietnam War protests? Anti-Iraq War protests?

All photo-ops that wasted and diverted law enforcement time. I can't recall too many protests that were designed to be stealthy and go unnoticed.

It is just more selective morality. If we think the protest subject was worthwhile, It was not a waste and diversion of law enforcement personnel. If we think the protest was BS, It was a waste and diversion of law enforcement personnel.
mtbat21 Offline
#36 Posted:
Joined: 10-31-2010
Posts: 26
rfenst wrote:
i understood what you ment, just not what mtbat21 wrote. What does it mean?



The FBI has a list of over 400 people they want to talk to regarding the WTC attack. Many of these people live and socialize right now in Muslim communities. You know them. You know where they are. Hand them over to us, NOW! But I have seen little even approaching this sort of action. Instead I have seen an already closed and secretive community close even tighter. You have disappeared from the streets. You have
posted armed security guards at your facilities. You have threatened lawsuits. You have screamed for protection from reprisals


What I was trying to get across is that it seems the Muslim community is hiding the suspects to be questioned, and if so why, if the system works the jury will decide if it goes to one. It seems the "community" does not believe in our system yet live in our country.
HockeyDad Offline
#37 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,163
I sorta doubt we're still trying to question 400 suspects that the Muslims are hiding.
mtbat21 Offline
#38 Posted:
Joined: 10-31-2010
Posts: 26
HockeyDad wrote:
I sorta doubt we're still trying to question 400 suspects that the Muslims are hiding.

Ya I know, just trying to make a point of thought.
DrafterX Offline
#39 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,560
mtbat21 wrote:
[b] It seems the "community" does not believe in our system yet live in our country.




They're just here for the cheese.... Mellow
rfenst Offline
#40 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,360
frankj1 wrote:
not sure I agree that the Civil Rights movement was a photo op requiring wasted law enforcement. strange analogy to this case.


+1
rfenst Offline
#41 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,360

Here is my beef with the claim/"argument" that Arab/Muslim rights trump all other people's rights in Dearborn: Comparing a single public fair there to a single effort at pamphlaterring outside that fair, per that video, has way too many unrelated, unknown variables, to draw any legitimate conclusions.

Here is my beef with the reliance on the video: It does not substantiate the claim that the rights of Arabs/Muslims supersede non-Arab/non-Muslim rights of any sort. Nor does it substantiate the claim that handing out non-Islamic religious literature to Muslims in Dearborn will lead to arrest. Maybe it will. The video just doesn't come close to showing or proving it.

Here is where I think the disconnect occurred: 1) the right to hold and/or attend a public fair is different than the right to 2) pamphleteer on public property. They are two totally different things. The analysis for each differs. Drawing conclusions from the two, without first separating the two for individual scrutiny/analysis, is not the right way to even begin to analyze the law or its consequences.
HockeyDad Offline
#42 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,163
rfenst wrote:
+1




See post #35
rfenst Offline
#43 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,360
HockeyDad wrote:
Would you prefer anti-Vietnam War protests? Anti-Iraq War protests?

All photo-ops that wasted and diverted law enforcement time. I can't recall too many protests that were designed to be stealthy and go unnoticed.

It is just more selective morality. If we think the protest subject was worthwhile, It was not a waste and diversion of law enforcement personnel. If we think the protest was BS, It was a waste and diversion of law enforcement personnel.


I have no problem with anyone who wants to protest or demonstrate on public property, provided that there is compliance with respect to proper time and place requirements, if any. I will always have a problem with any protest or demonstration that is thwarted because of the content of the message.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#44 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,507
rfenst wrote:
I have no problem with anyone who wants to protest or demonstrate on public property, provided that there is compliance with respect to proper time and place requirements, if any. I will always have a problem with any protest or demonstration that is thwarted because of the content of the message.



Oh, you're gonna LOVE those free speech zones then!whip
HockeyDad Offline
#45 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,163
So the only issue here is that these guys should have had some sort of permit like Westboro Baptist Church always does and then it wouldn't be a waste and diversion of law enforcement.

I wonder how many civil rights, anti-Vietnam permits, and anti-Iraq war protests had proper permits!
HockeyDad Offline
#46 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,163
Here is another example of Dearborn that would qualify as NOT a waste and diversion of law enforcement resources because they went to the free speech zone!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyfJklPaXFA
rfenst Offline
#47 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,360
HockeyDad wrote:
Here is another example of Dearborn that would qualify as NOT a waste and diversion of law enforcement resources because they went to the free speech zone!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyfJklPaXFA


Wow!
HockeyDad Offline
#48 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,163
Let's see them protest this!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w82qdfGZCQ0&feature=related
DrMaddVibe Offline
#49 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,507
rfenst wrote:
Wow!



Doesn't matter...they'll affect you.

DNC...RNC...WTO...NWO...GET IN YOUR FREE SPEECH ZONE!!!!
horse
rfenst Offline
#50 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,360
DrMaddVibe wrote:
Doesn't matter...they'll affect you.

DNC...RNC...WTO...NWO...GET IN YOUR FREE SPEECH ZONE!!!!
horse


Huh?
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