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5th Amendment?
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ShiftyMac Offline
#1 Posted: Sat, Oct 1 2011, 1:44 AM EST
Joined: 09-18-2011
Posts: 114
Is anyone else seriously disturbed about the assassination of Anwar-al Awlaki? He is a United States citizen who was Living in Yemen. The President deemed him a radical muslim cleric and an enemy of the state and killed him via unmanned drones in Yemen.

Awlaki didn't kill anyone, he wasn't even a terrorist. He promoted jihad against the U.S. but technically never hurt anyone. He had no trial there was no due process, Obama was judge juror and executioner.

How does everyone feel about the President murdering U.S. citizens no matter who they are in foreign nations far from the battlefield? Another unnamed U.S. citizen was killed with him too.
wheelrite Offline
#2 Posted: Sat, Oct 1 2011, 6:31 AM EST
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
They were Aborted,so no problem,,
HockeyDad Offline
#3 Posted: Sat, Oct 1 2011, 6:57 AM EST
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,149
Maybe he had unpaid parking tickets or library fees.
BuckyB93 Offline
#4 Posted: Sat, Oct 1 2011, 7:12 AM EST
Joined: 07-16-2004
Posts: 14,211
They are just working though their inbox of [email protected]
engletl Offline
#5 Posted: Sat, Oct 1 2011, 8:01 AM EST
Joined: 12-26-2000
Posts: 26,493
a Traitor is a Traitor and desevre a Traitor's death
ShiftyMac Offline
#6 Posted: Sat, Oct 1 2011, 10:48 AM EST
Joined: 09-18-2011
Posts: 114
Silly of me expect reasonable responses here
:P
DrMaddVibe Offline
#7 Posted: Sat, Oct 1 2011, 10:51 AM EST
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,467
American Karma got him...right between his eyes.


The guy was a scumbag and you should be ashamed of sticking up for a person that wished the deaths on Americans and plotted to do so.

You want your kind of reasonable response? Go back to the DailyKOS!
ZRX1200 Offline
#8 Posted: Sat, Oct 1 2011, 10:54 AM EST
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,620
I find it to be a horrific precedent. I've heard arguments that the war powers act of 2001 gives him the authority to do this but he is a US citizen.

I don't like it.


And after the Bin Laden incident I doubt that this was even him. Everytine poll numbers go down they drag out a dead terrorist to keep people gungho.
ShiftyMac Offline
#9 Posted: Sat, Oct 1 2011, 10:54 AM EST
Joined: 09-18-2011
Posts: 114
I'm not sticking up for him I'm sticking up to the 5th Amendment of our Constitution is all. It sets a scary precedence is the point I was getting at.

I'm definitely not a liberal by the way I just like to think the Bill of Rights matters.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#10 Posted: Sat, Oct 1 2011, 10:55 AM EST
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,467
ShiftyMac wrote:
I'm not sticking up for him I'm sticking up to the 5th Amendment of our Constitution is all. It sets a scary precedence is the point I was getting at.

I'm definitely not a liberal by the way I just like to think the Bill of Rights matters.



Take it up with Owebama then!

I'm glad the guy is scattered all over the Yemeni highway.
ShiftyMac Offline
#11 Posted: Sat, Oct 1 2011, 10:58 AM EST
Joined: 09-18-2011
Posts: 114
Certainly wasn't looking for someone here to take it up with I was just looking for peoples thoughts on the precedence being set. Everyone deserves a trial before they are killed or put in prison. He certainly was a scumbag, but some charges and a conviction wouldn't have hurt anyone.
dubleuhb Offline
#12 Posted: Sat, Oct 1 2011, 11:16 AM EST
Joined: 03-20-2011
Posts: 11,350
He knew he was wanted, thus if he was worried about a his 5th amendment rights he could have easily recieved his trial by jury but chose to continue his jihad and justice was served.
ShiftyMac Offline
#13 Posted: Sat, Oct 1 2011, 12:42 PM EST
Joined: 09-18-2011
Posts: 114
Sooo anyone wanted should be killed?
ShiftyMac Offline
#14 Posted: Sat, Oct 1 2011, 12:45 PM EST
Joined: 09-18-2011
Posts: 114
I think I read a book about some country called the USSR that sort of went that way.
dubleuhb Offline
#15 Posted: Sat, Oct 1 2011, 1:01 PM EST
Joined: 03-20-2011
Posts: 11,350
Traitors need to be dealt with accordingly, Maybe it wasn't the best way to handle it but he knew it was coming at some point and did nothing but press forward with his twisted philosophy and justice was served. Saying anyone can be killed is a bit of a stretch. Anyone who tries or actually does plan to cause the deaths of INNOCENT Americans or their allies, yes go get your 70 virgins or whatever they promise them.
wheelrite Offline
#16 Posted: Sat, Oct 1 2011, 1:03 PM EST
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
ShiftyMac wrote:
I think I read a book about some country called the USSR that sort of went that way.


which book would that be ?
ZRX1200 Offline
#17 Posted: Sat, Oct 1 2011, 1:05 PM EST
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,620
And who decides?

Slippery slope that at the least bears a discussion.
ShiftyMac Offline
#18 Posted: Sat, Oct 1 2011, 1:18 PM EST
Joined: 09-18-2011
Posts: 114
It was more of an exaggeration about the book. But just because someone advocates killing Americans doesn't mean they deserve to be executed. And Z is right. Who exactly do we appoint to make these decisions. That's why we have due process, so people are judged by a juror. The way it was handled just fuels the fire against us and makes our job harder. He now has been made into a martyr and will likely add to his cause. It's called blowback and the U.S. sure knows a lot about that.

And actually now to think of it "We the Living" By Ayn Rand would answer wheelrites question.
dubleuhb Offline
#19 Posted: Sat, Oct 1 2011, 1:19 PM EST
Joined: 03-20-2011
Posts: 11,350
I don't really know who decides, but here I have to say the proper agencies had enough information to make the call. Was he plotting to do harm to our country and it's people and a decision was made. The way these wackos are planning to do things to us these days isn't the same as previous threats to our country and it has changed the way we need to deal with them. When other countries harbor these people and let the plan and carry out their plans from within then I believe someone has to make that call. I think this administration probably has a hard time doing this but when Clinton dropped the ball on Bid lADEN years ago they do not want the same thing hanging over their head down the road.
frankj1 Offline
#20 Posted: Sat, Oct 1 2011, 1:51 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,223
I have fears above and beyond everyday safety of a government unrestrained... I fear it from any party in control, but I am not an anarchist. That said, this individual was more than a loud mouth spewing anti-American rhetoric. I do not wish those types be killed, I wish they had their own cable network! But this fellow goes beyond chatter.

He was actively using the internet to recruit Americans and others into Al Qaeda, he had dealings with the Ft Hood shooter and other terrorists (yeah, I am wary of guilt by association too), but it wasn't the scary words, he was a major leader of an active Al Qaeda group and made the "list". He knew he was on the list, his family knew also. His was the first such killing by our gov since 2001...not that that lessens my fears of things along the lines of ZRX posts above. The door being cracked scares me admittedly. But at least there has not been a decade of random applications.

But there are a few differences here that make me a bit more comfortable that this is an isolated and legally justifiable act rather than a horrific precedence, though the argument against is certainly strong and valid and may never be closed. In this case, info from editorial in today's Boston Globe, the ACLU (the group everyone loves to hate) filed suit per his father saying due to Awlaki's presence outside a war zone eg Iraq/Afghanistan the US should be limited to apprehending him via law enforcement. The suit was dismissed as the gov cited enough evidence subjecting him to military force under a post 9/11 law.

No one pulled a surprise move here while legality was being debated.

I have paraphrased the editorial. And I am not totally at ease with what happened, but I am not totally against the rationalization either. But the debate must be kept alive for our own individual protection.
ZRX1200 Offline
#21 Posted: Sat, Oct 1 2011, 1:51 PM EST
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,620
"The way these wackos are planning to do things to us these days isn't the same as previous threats to our country" .

Right our CIA never trained pilots for the attacks on Pearl Harbor.
wheelrite Offline
#22 Posted: Sat, Oct 1 2011, 1:55 PM EST
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
He was also arrested twice for Solicting a Prostitute in Seattle ,, A model Muslim...
ZRX1200 Offline
#23 Posted: Sat, Oct 1 2011, 2:00 PM EST
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,620
They encourage this behavior to blend in when amongst the infidels. Lying is o.k. to them if its done to ultimately defeat th enemies of allah.
ShiftyMac Offline
#24 Posted: Sat, Oct 1 2011, 2:00 PM EST
Joined: 09-18-2011
Posts: 114
I'm not defending him and I am aware he wasn't a model Muslim by any means. This doesn't mean the constitution shouldn't be applied. All I wan't people to think about is that small things like this pave the way for larger things to come on bigger scales. I don't think the gov't is just going to start waxing everyone they dislike but an exception here or there isn't ok. Either we all get due process or there becomes someone who is judge juror and excecutioner and I don't trust anyone enough to hold that position,
ZRX1200 Offline
#25 Posted: Sat, Oct 1 2011, 2:02 PM EST
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,620
Ruby ridge, Waco, tea party........whoever the "deciderer in chief" is deciding. Sleep well sheep.
dpnewell Offline
#26 Posted: Sat, Oct 1 2011, 2:23 PM EST
Joined: 03-16-2009
Posts: 7,491
I'm going against the flow and siding with ShiftyMac and ZRX on this one folks. As an American Citizen, the scumbag traitor should have been grabbed and brought to trial, not executed without due process. Don't forget, some in the MSM as well as some Dems have labeled the Teaparty and those of us who own guns and hold Libertarian views as "potential terrorists".
ShiftyMac Offline
#27 Posted: Sat, Oct 1 2011, 2:27 PM EST
Joined: 09-18-2011
Posts: 114
I believe the technical term given to us by Homeland Security was "Domestic Terrorist" but they're the gov't so they must know whats best for us
dubleuhb Offline
#28 Posted: Sat, Oct 1 2011, 2:30 PM EST
Joined: 03-20-2011
Posts: 11,350
ZRX1200 wrote:


Right our CIA never trained pilots for the attacks on Pearl Harbor.

Reach for something all you want, If someone is plotting to do harm to this country or it's citizens then they have crossed the line. So we should just let this piece of crap go on about his way and maybe someday he succeeds, great call. I will lose no sleep over a terrorist taking a dirtnap if it means pushing the limits some. This piece of camel crap lost his rights as soon as he turned on his country. Sure it would have been better if he would have been brought to trial but as long as he stayed in Yemen and their government would not cooperate with him being returned to us then we must do as we must to protect the people of this country.
Then again whe can just wait for him to get it right one time, that would be so much better.Brick wall
dubleuhb Offline
#29 Posted: Sat, Oct 1 2011, 2:39 PM EST
Joined: 03-20-2011
Posts: 11,350
dpnewell wrote:
I'm going against the flow and siding with ShiftyMac and ZRX on this one folks. As an American Citizen, the scumbag traitor should have been grabbed and brought to trial, not executed without due process. Don't forget, some in the MSM as well as some Dems have labeled the Teaparty and those of us who own guns and hold Libertarian views as "potential terrorists".

What the news or some soundbite of the day politician says about me or anyone else with my beliefs is not the same. They are trying to stir the pot only because they are losing the debate. The facts are this guy was known about for years and was actively planning to do harm to the USA. It is only because of the availability of information today that this was known in my opinion. These kind of preemptive measures have been going on for ever and if they stop one attack then so be it.
ShiftyMac Offline
#30 Posted: Sat, Oct 1 2011, 2:54 PM EST
Joined: 09-18-2011
Posts: 114
He wasn't a terrorist he never killed anyoneand by your logic people in groups such as the KKK or Black Panthers or any white supremacy group, anyhing of that nature that advocates the death of people should all be killed. No trial nothing like that just kill them, kill anyone who thinks someone in America should die. Not exactly the foundation this country was built on. Way to throw in the camel comment too. i didn't know there were a lot of camels in New Mexico where he was from but I might be misinformed. And no contrary to what you may think advocating the death of Americans does not mean your forfeit your rights. He was clearly a fucked up guy no one is denying that, that doesn't mean you get to decide if he lives or not without a trial we can save that for the totalitarian regimes around the world but not the U.S.
ZRX1200 Offline
#31 Posted: Sat, Oct 1 2011, 3:09 PM EST
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,620
Ok. Disagreement with you is loosing a debate then I plead guilty.

Al Queda works for us. I'm grasping at nothing. You are loosing grasp of your freedoms while the boogyman waves faux terrorists @U.
ShiftyMac Offline
#32 Posted: Sat, Oct 1 2011, 3:33 PM EST
Joined: 09-18-2011
Posts: 114
I'll make sure to get a "feel" of things first before I post. Thanks for the advice...
ZRX1200 Offline
#33 Posted: Sat, Oct 1 2011, 3:34 PM EST
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,620
Crazy Uncle Rick!


Don't forget to post "poop" alot either.

And i got my my degree from Fuller Brush co.
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#34 Posted: Sat, Oct 1 2011, 3:42 PM EST
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248

ShiftyMac

you are new to this asylum. first find out where the toilets are,
then find out out when we have scheduled coffee breaks.
get a feel of the place. find out if the neighbor's dog is vicious.

you have entered the twilight zone where up can be down
or horizontal.

as a generalization a lot of posters have graduated from high
schools, some have GED's.

what no one lacks is an opinion, sometimes based on a
knowledge of the facts, most of the time based on prejudices.
it's an American tradition.

invade, kill the original inhabitants, with bullets or political
correctness like giving them bedding tainted with disease,
measles works well. or teach them how to pick the fruit and
vegetables you are going to raise on your new land.
.
repeat this process on every unprotected hunk o land you can
find and take over.now you're talking business.

when you are a world power. who is going to argue with you.
where is it written a postal service can sell you insurance,
or charge extra for a faster horse.

for good luck, kill a chicken.
dubleuhb Offline
#35 Posted: Sat, Oct 1 2011, 3:44 PM EST
Joined: 03-20-2011
Posts: 11,350
ShiftyMac wrote:
He wasn't a terrorist he never killed anyoneand by your logic people in groups such as the KKK or Black Panthers or any white supremacy group, anyhing of that nature that advocates the death of people should all be killed. No trial nothing like that just kill them, kill anyone who thinks someone in America should die. Not exactly the foundation this country was built on. Way to throw in the camel comment too. i didn't know there were a lot of camels in New Mexico where he was from but I might be misinformed. And no contrary to what you may think advocating the death of Americans does not mean your forfeit your rights. He was clearly a ****ed up guy no one is denying that, that doesn't mean you get to decide if he lives or not without a trial we can save that for the totalitarian regimes around the world but not the U.S.

You seem pretty sure that he ever killed anyone, while I am not. It may not have been directly at his hands but he definitely had a hand in it. Whether it is by association or by direct participation it is still the same. What problem do you have with the camel crap, I could have just as easily said cow crap but you seem to want to read more into it than it was right ? Would Yemen officials give him to us for a proper trial ? NO, so we are suppose to just sit back and wait for him to plan more of his jihad? As for your comparison to all those groups you say I would just kill them your wrong. They are here and I'm sure are well monitored and an indictment can be easily delivered and then brought to trial. It was not going to happen with this guy.
BTW your first line ''he wasn't a terrorist'' is just comical.
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#36 Posted: Sat, Oct 1 2011, 3:53 PM EST
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
the Bill of Rights ?

didn't BusH and cheney and all the rest of that gang eliminate the right to petition a court for grievances like "why am i in a prison without being charged with anything..

wasn't that in the magna carta.13th century
borndead1 Offline
#37 Posted: Sat, Oct 1 2011, 4:21 PM EST
Joined: 11-07-2006
Posts: 5,216
We need to look further down the road with cases like this, instead of going with our gut reaction of "he deserved what he got" or "I'm glad he's dead" or "he was a terrorist".

Where does it end? What's next, if a regular old U.S. citizen is wanted for a regular old murder, should he be assassinated? Would people's opinions be different if Anwar-al Awlaki had no links to Al-Queda? What if he was a "right wing extremist" who actually killed someone?


I agree that it sets a dangerous precedent.
borndead1 Offline
#38 Posted: Sat, Oct 1 2011, 4:23 PM EST
Joined: 11-07-2006
Posts: 5,216
RICKAMAVEN wrote:
the Bill of Rights ?

didn't BusH and cheney and all the rest of that gang eliminate the right to petition a court for grievances like "why am i in a prison without being charged with anything..

wasn't that in the magna carta.13th century


Rick, quit being a dumbass. You can't pin any of this on Bush and Cheney. Your hero Obama gave the green light on this. The blood is on HIS hands.
dubleuhb Offline
#39 Posted: Sat, Oct 1 2011, 4:25 PM EST
Joined: 03-20-2011
Posts: 11,350
The left condones murder everyday in this country, I don't see that being a problem amongst them.
dpnewell Offline
#40 Posted: Sat, Oct 1 2011, 8:38 PM EST
Joined: 03-16-2009
Posts: 7,491
ShiftyMac wrote:
I'll make sure to get a "feel" of things first before I post. Thanks for the advice...


Don't let these guys scare you off. There are quite a few Libertarians on this board, who have the same concerns as you.
ShiftyMac Offline
#41 Posted: Sun, Oct 2 2011, 1:17 AM EST
Joined: 09-18-2011
Posts: 114
Yea a sarcasm alert should have done with that one. Good to know about other people that are like minded.
HockeyDad Offline
#42 Posted: Sun, Oct 2 2011, 9:02 AM EST
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,149
So are we saying it is wrong for the American government to kill Americans who speak out against the American government?

I'm never going to get the Halliburton-built FEMA run camps open if this type of thought pervades.
ZRX1200 Offline
#43 Posted: Sun, Oct 2 2011, 9:09 AM EST
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,620
I know right? My timeshare for the top bunk may prove to be a waste of money yet.
HockeyDad Offline
#44 Posted: Sun, Oct 2 2011, 9:36 AM EST
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,149
6 weeks of night school to be a commandant at a re-education camp.....
3 online videos from Obama on fundraising from camp detainees.....
$10 donation to elect Obama.....

Never pulling the trigger on opening the camps.....PRICELESS!


My return on investment is looking pretty bad right now.
DaQueenBeez Offline
#45 Posted: Sun, Oct 2 2011, 1:43 PM EST
Joined: 01-26-2007
Posts: 20,837
I voted AGAINST the current administration. I disagree with darn near every bill/policy our (non-citizen, IMO) idiot-in-chief sets forth. I actively and aggressively advocate the FIRING of every single government official until they start remembering who works for whom. THEY work for US - THEY take orders from US, not the other way around. I have stated in person and on the internet that the people should NEVER fear their government, but the government should ALWAYS fear the people. By the definitions I'm seeing here, that makes me an un-American traitor. (By Obummer standards, it also makes me a racist, but I don't think that's an assasination-worthy offense....yet.) I have mentioned to several people, on several occasions, that I think we'd be worlds better off if a secret service agent would push the idiot-in-chief in front of a moving bus... specifically that stupid land-yacht campaign bus of his. Sounds to me like I need to get my affairs in order - apparently I'm the next great terrorist threat.
ZRX1200 Offline
#46 Posted: Sun, Oct 2 2011, 2:32 PM EST
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,620
I'll give the feds your old addy ;-)
wheelrite Offline
#47 Posted: Sun, Oct 2 2011, 2:34 PM EST
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
DaQueenBeez wrote:
I voted AGAINST the current administration. I disagree with darn near every bill/policy our (non-citizen, IMO) idiot-in-chief sets forth. I actively and aggressively advocate the FIRING of every single government official until they start remembering who works for whom. THEY work for US - THEY take orders from US, not the other way around. I have stated in person and on the internet that the people should NEVER fear their government, but the government should ALWAYS fear the people. By the definitions I'm seeing here, that makes me an un-American traitor. (By Obummer standards, it also makes me a racist, but I don't think that's an assasination-worthy offense....yet.) I have mentioned to several people, on several occasions, that I think we'd be worlds better off if a secret service agent would push the idiot-in-chief in front of a moving bus... specifically that stupid land-yacht campaign bus of his. Sounds to me like I need to get my affairs in order - apparently I'm the next great terrorist threat.



Rut roh,,,
DaQueenBeez Offline
#48 Posted: Sun, Oct 2 2011, 2:57 PM EST
Joined: 01-26-2007
Posts: 20,837
ZRX1200 wrote:
I'll give the feds your old addy ;-)


Now there's a true friend! I knew I could count on you! ThumpUp

However, if they're going to go in with the "indiscriminate killing complete with collateral damage" method via remote drone that they used in Yemen, maybe you could feed them skeletor's new addy, instead?
wheelrite Offline
#49 Posted: Sun, Oct 2 2011, 3:02 PM EST
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
DaQueenBeez wrote:
Now there's a true friend! I knew I could count on you! ThumpUp

However, if they're going to go in with the "indiscriminate killing complete with collateral damage" method via remote drone that they used in Yemen, maybe you could feed them skeletor's new addy, instead?



Skeletor,
who dat is ??
ZRX1200 Offline
#50 Posted: Sun, Oct 2 2011, 3:09 PM EST
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,620
Word Queenie!
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