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Mysterious blasts, slayings suggest covert efforts in Iran
jetblasted Offline
#1 Posted:
Joined: 08-30-2004
Posts: 42,595
Attacks targeting nuclear scientists and sites lead some observers to believe that the U.S. and Israel are trying to derail Iran's programs.

By Ken Dilanian, Los Angeles Times

Reporting from Washington— At an Iranian military base 30 miles west of Tehran, engineers were working on weapons that the armed forces chief of staff had boasted could give Israel a "strong punch in the mouth."

But then a huge explosion ripped through the Revolutionary Guard Corps base on Nov. 12, leveling most of the buildings. Government officials said 17 people were killed, including a founder of Iran's ballistic missile program, Gen. Hassan Tehrani Moghaddam.

Iranian officials called the blast an accident. Perhaps it was.

Decades of international sanctions have left Iran struggling to obtain technology and spare parts for military programs and commercial industries, leading in some cases to dangerous working conditions.

However, many former U.S. intelligence officials and Iran experts believe that the explosion — the most destructive of at least two dozen unexplained blasts in the last two years — was part of a covert effort by the U.S., Israel and others to disable Iran's nuclear and missile programs. The goal, the experts say, is to derail what those nations fear is Iran's quest for nuclear weapons capability and to stave off an Israeli or U.S. airstrike to eliminate or lessen the threat.

"It looks like the 21st century form of war," said Patrick Clawson, who directs the Iran Security Initiative at the Washington Institute for Near East Policy, a Washington think tank. "It does appear that there is a campaign of assassinations and cyber war, as well as the semi-acknowledged campaign of sabotage."

Or perhaps not. Any such operation would be highly classified, and those who might know aren't talking. The result is Washington's latest national security parlor game — trying to figure out who, if anyone, is responsible for the unusual incidents.

For years, the U.S. and its allies have sought to hinder Iran's weapons programs by secretly supplying faulty parts, plans or software, former intelligence officials say. No proof of sabotage has emerged, but Iran's nuclear program clearly has hit obstacles that thwarted progress in recent years.

"We definitely are doing that," said Art Keller, a former CIA case officer who worked on Iran. "It's pretty much the stated mission of the [CIA's] counter-proliferation division to do what it takes to slow … Iran's weapons of mass destruction program."

Iran insists that its nuclear program is for civilian purposes only.

Many Western experts are convinced that American and Israeli engineers secretly fed the Stuxnet computer worm into Iran's nuclear program in 2010. The virus reportedly caused centrifuges used to enrich uranium to spin out of control and shatter. Neither the U.S. nor Israeli government has acknowledged any role in the apparent cyber-attack.

Nor did anyone claim responsibility after two senior nuclear physicists were killed, and a third wounded, by bombs attached to their cars or nearby motorcycles in January and November last year.

Militants waving pictures of one of the slain scientists stormed the British Embassy in Tehran last week, setting fires and causing extensive damage. Several European countries recalled their envoys from Iran after the British government closed its embassy and expelled Iranian diplomats from London.

Like the deaths, the explosions have drawn special scrutiny in the think tanks of Washington, where Iran watchers have tracked reports of unexplained blasts in Iranian gas pipelines, oil installations and military facilities.

In October, Iranian news services reported three such explosions in a 24-hour period. The blasts killed two people. Another large blast was reported last week in Esfahan, Iran's third-largest city.

Some analysts suspect that the CIA and Israel's intelligence agency, Mossad, are involved, with possible help from the MEK, a fringe Iranian group that the State Department lists as a terrorist organization, although it has many allies in Washington's foreign policy establishment. Based in Iraq, the group is believed to have links to dissident networks inside Iran.

Iran claims to have arrested dozens of CIA informants in recent months, and U.S. officials acknowledge that a handful of informants in Iran have been exposed. What they did, or where, is unknown. In October, U.S. officials announced that they had uncovered an Iranian plot to assassinate the Saudi ambassador in Washington.

Some analysts caution against assuming the CIA is orchestrating all the attacks in Iran, arguing it gives U.S. intelligence far too much credit. But that doesn't preclude U.S. support for allied spy services in Europe and the Middle East that also target Iran. Still, there is more speculation at this point than hard evidence.

A cyber expert who works closely with U.S. intelligence said he is convinced that Israel, not the U.S., launched the Stuxnet attack because U.S. government lawyers would not approve use of a computer virus that could spread far beyond the intended target, as Stuxnet apparently did. That caution, of course, presumes the lawyers knew the virus would spread, and that's not clear. The expert would not speak publicly about classified matters.

Whether the White House would authorize the targeted killing of Iranian scientists is far from certain. An executive order signed by President Reagan in 1981 prohibits direct or indirect involvement in assassinations, although the term is not defined.

President Obama has authorized the killing of Al Qaeda members and other suspected militants, including at least one U.S. citizen in Yemen.

Some analysts claim that the U.S. would not back a bombing campaign that has killed Iranian workers at oil refineries and other civilian sites. It would amount to sponsoring terrorism, a charge Washington regularly levels at Tehran.

"I do not believe that the U.S. has participated in either attacking scientists or physical attacks against Iranian nuclear facilities," said Greg Thielmann, a former State Department intelligence official who helped expose the faulty intelligence cited by the George W. Bush administration before the 2003 invasion of Iraq. "Selling them bad parts, introducing malware — that does seem to me within the realm of what one might expect from U.S. intelligence activities."

Reuel Marc Gerecht, a former CIA operative who specialized on Iran, said he doesn't believe that the CIA could mount a sophisticated covert campaign of sabotage inside Iran, where the U.S. has not had an embassy since 1979. Gerecht long has urged the CIA to mount more aggressive operations against Iran.

"I just think trying to maintain and run a paramilitary covert action group inside Iran is beyond America's covert capacity," he said.

Whatever the cause, headlines about unsolved killings, unexplained explosions and sinister computer viruses have rattled Iranians, especially those who work in the nuclear program, analysts said.

Perhaps that's the point.

"All these things have a profound effect," Clawson said. "You have to watch your back when you go to work. You're not certain what's going to happen when you turn on your computer. You're not certain whether you can talk to your colleagues."
herfidore Offline
#2 Posted:
Joined: 02-21-2008
Posts: 4,031
Game on.
FuzzNJ Offline
#3 Posted:
Joined: 06-28-2006
Posts: 13,000
Can't be. Obama is president and we all know Democratic Presidents are wimps when it comes to this kind of thing.
herfidore Offline
#4 Posted:
Joined: 02-21-2008
Posts: 4,031
When you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
rfenst Offline
#5 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,349



Gee Whiz!
Who would have thunk that Israel or the U.S. might be involved in the sabotage?
frankj1 Offline
#6 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,223
rfenst wrote:
Gee Whiz!
Who would have thunk that Israel or the U.S. might be involved in the sabotage?

me.
DadZilla3 Offline
#7 Posted:
Joined: 01-17-2009
Posts: 4,633
rfenst wrote:
Gee Whiz!
Who would have thunk that Israel or the U.S. might be involved in the sabotage?

Impossible. We're the Good Guys.
jackconrad Offline
#8 Posted:
Joined: 06-09-2003
Posts: 67,461
FuzzNJ wrote:
Can't be. Obama is president and we all know Democratic Presidents are wimps when it comes to this kind of thing.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zj2Zf9tlg2Y
Yep just like Roosevelt and Johnson and Clinton..
HockeyDad Offline
#9 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,160
Iran must be stopped.

Signed: US military-industrial complex and the American Israel Public Affairs Committee.
frankj1 Offline
#10 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,223
there goes Israel making a mountain out of a sand hill again. Surrounded by well wishers and whining again.
HockeyDad Offline
#11 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,160
The American public is being softened up for a new war and any and all unintended consequences. It is probably already 50/50 right now.

Buy defense stocks and oil. Hug your sons and daughters....they're going to war.
frankj1 Offline
#12 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,223
I know it's a long shot, but any chance Iran (et al) has any part in this?

Anyone?
HockeyDad Offline
#13 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,160
It could be lightning strikes and sewer gas. I doubt it is the CIA. Obama is a barrier to a new war and something needs to be done about that.

I would be buying oil.
frankj1 Offline
#14 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,223
HockeyDad wrote:
It could be lightning strikes and sewer gas. I doubt it is the CIA. Obama is a barrier to a new war and something needs to be done about that.

I would be buying oil.

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I mean has Iran done anything provocative to be treated with such hostility, assuming it has not been, you know, just weird bad luck?

Oh yeah, buy that oil.
HockeyDad Offline
#15 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,160
Have they done anything provocative to the USA or Israel? ....or is that the same thing?! Have they done anything that is grounds for war with the USA?

It doesn't matter. They have already been chosen. If Iran had a nuclear weapon and then could develop a missile system to deliver it, Romania would be in range. That pretty much is an imminent threat to the USA.

It is almost party time.
frankj1 Offline
#16 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,223
HockeyDad wrote:
Have they done anything provocative to the USA or Israel? ....or is that the same thing?! Have they done anything that is grounds for war with the USA?

It doesn't matter. They have already been chosen. If Iran had a nuclear weapon and then could develop a missile system to deliver it, Romania would be in range. That pretty much is an imminent threat to the USA.

It is almost party time.

sorry, but I missed the news story when Imadinnerjacket said Romania should be erased from the face of the earth.



HockeyDad Offline
#17 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,160
So you don't think the USA should go to war because Romania is threatened? The USA is not threatened so I guess we're sitting this one out.
frankj1 Offline
#18 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,223
HockeyDad wrote:
So you don't think the USA should go to war because Romania is threatened? The USA is not threatened so I guess we're sitting this one out.

so you're admitting that Iran has stated that Israel should be wiped off the map? But that doesn't qualify as provocative?
HockeyDad Offline
#19 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,160
frankj1 wrote:
so you're admitting that Iran has stated that Israel should be wiped off the map? But that doesn't qualify as provocative?



Provocative to Israel, not the USA or Romania. USA and Romanian foreign policy (should) not be dictated by Israel.
jetblasted Offline
#20 Posted:
Joined: 08-30-2004
Posts: 42,595
So, what does Romania have to do with all of this ?
HockeyDad Offline
#21 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,160
jetblasted wrote:
So, what does Romania have to do with all of this ?



They are in range of Iran's nuclear missiles and the USA needs to go to war to protect them.
jetblasted Offline
#22 Posted:
Joined: 08-30-2004
Posts: 42,595
I doubt any will be fired in their direction . . .
HockeyDad Offline
#23 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,160
jetblasted wrote:
I doubt any will be fired in their direction . . .



That may be true but just in case.....the USA should go to war with Iran.
frankj1 Offline
#24 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,223
jetblasted wrote:
So, what does Romania have to do with all of this ?

HD's way of being provocative.
HockeyDad Offline
#25 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,160
Frankj1 believes that if a country pisses off Israel, the USA should go to war with that country. Republican candidates are tripping all over themselves to race to the microphone to say the exact same thing.

Unfortunately, Frankj1 refuses to extend this same protection to Romania.




The American public is being softened up for a new war and any and all unintended consequences. Soon we'll be thumping our chests demanding that we attack Iran. (Just like they already are doing in Israel)

frankj1 Offline
#26 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,223
HockeyDad wrote:
Provocative to Israel, not the USA or Romania. USA and Romanian foreign policy (should) not be dictated by Israel.

That's what you asked, has Iran done anything provocative to the US OR Israel.
And you answered "to Israel". So you agree that Israel has reason to get worked up in light of provocative actions and threats. Good.

So this may be one time you support Israel if they treat Iran's nuke program the same way they treated Iraq's...then you won't be blaming them if they act with a preemptive strike in order to avoid the inconvenience of being wiped off the face of the earth?
HockeyDad Offline
#27 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,160
frankj1 wrote:

That's what you asked, has Iran done anything provocative to the US OR Israel.
And you answered "to Israel". So you agree that Israel has reason to get worked up in light of provocative actions and threats. Good.

So this may be one time you support Israel if they treat Iran's nuke program the same way they treated Iraq's...then you won't be blaming them if they act with a preemptive strike in order to avoid the inconvenience of being wiped off the face of the earth?




This goes the other way as well. Israel threatens to bomb Iran on a near daily basis. That also is provocative. so Iran has reason to get worked up. So I guess Iran could act with a preemptive strike in order to avoid the inconvenience of an Israeli attack.

We just need to figure out how to make it all happen.

Option A: Convince the USA to start the war and send their sons and daughters into harms way.
Option B: Israel starts the war but the USA pays for it.

Both options are workable. It is gonna be a beautiful thing!
frankj1 Offline
#28 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,223
HockeyDad wrote:
This goes the other way as well. Israel threatens to bomb Iran on a near daily basis. That also is provocative. so Iran has reason to get worked up. So I guess Iran could act with a preemptive strike in order to avoid the inconvenience of an Israeli attack.

We just need to figure out how to make it all happen.

Option A: Convince the USA to start the war and send their sons and daughters into harms way.
Option B: Israel starts the war but the USA pays for it.

Both options are workable. It is gonna be a beautiful thing!

You introduce red herrings all over the place that has confused both me and Jet, probably lots of others.

Please clarify your stance for the readers regarding:

Any threats Israel has made to wipe out anyone, out of the blue, without being threatened? For sure, they always reply to overt threats that every one has heard, even you heard it, like Iran did. Yet Iran escapes your criticism? Their target is blamed? We are confused. Explain why Iran is in your "favored nations" circle.

Are you really a supporter of Iran's rights to obliterate Israel, then blame Israel for it?

So you are stating that even when their very existence is threatened in international proclamations, Israel is the bad guy when they reply that they will not stand for it?
HockeyDad Offline
#29 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,160
Keep it real simple......

Should the USA go to war with Iran?

jetblasted Offline
#30 Posted:
Joined: 08-30-2004
Posts: 42,595
Funny how we're pulling out of 2 countries that border Iran, when we could've squeezed them from both sides . . .
frankj1 Offline
#31 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,223
HockeyDad wrote:
Keep it real simple......

Should the USA go to war with Iran?


no.

Just as simple, do you think Iran is planning to decimate Israel?
HockeyDad Offline
#32 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,160
Now it terms of Israel being threatened, Israel has maintained nuclear weapons since the early 1970s or even into the late 1960s. The standing threat to everyone and anyone is that if Israel goes down, they are taking everyone in the Middle East with them in a sea of nuclear fire. That threat from Israel has never been retracted.

Now Israel is the victim if one or more of the nations that live under this Israeli threat tries to develop their own nuclear weapon. This is what nuclear proliferation is all about and now we're supposed to act shocked and outraged!

frankj1 Offline
#33 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,223
HockeyDad wrote:
Now it terms of Israel being threatened, Israel has maintained nuclear weapons since the early 1970s or even into the late 1960s. The standing threat to everyone and anyone is that if Israel goes down, they are taking everyone in the Middle East with them in a sea of nuclear fire. That threat from Israel has never been retracted.

Now Israel is the victim if one or more of the nations that live under this Israeli threat tries to develop their own nuclear weapon. This is what nuclear proliferation is all about and now we're supposed to act shocked and outraged!


Keeping it simple is for others. Answer as asked.
HockeyDad Offline
#34 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,160
frankj1 wrote:
no.

Just as simple, do you think Iran is planning to decimate Israel?



No. It would be suicidal to their entire nation.

The thought of Iran being able to develop a nuclear weapon has Israel already panicking that the status quo they've enjoyed is coming to an end. Iran doesn't even need a bomb to keep up that pressure. If they did actually develop a bomb, the last thing they would do is attack Israel. Notice those crazy North Koreans haven't attacked anyone yet?

Mutually Assured Destruction.....just like India and Pakistan.



The important thing is to convince the American public that Iran will attack Israel if they have a nuclear weapon and then let their Christian prophecy minds fill in the blanks.
HockeyDad Offline
#35 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,160
frankj1 wrote:
Answer as asked.




Jesus Christ, can you at least give me a second to type?
frankj1 Offline
#36 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,223
HockeyDad wrote:
Jesus Christ, can you at least give me a second to type?

excellent. sorry. I love this sh*t.
frankj1 Offline
#37 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,223
HockeyDad wrote:
No. It would be suicidal to their entire nation.

The thought of Iran being able to develop a nuclear weapon has Israel already panicking that the status quo they've enjoyed is coming to an end. Iran doesn't even need a bomb to keep up that pressure. If they did actually develop a bomb, the last thing they would do is attack Israel. Notice those crazy North Koreans haven't attacked anyone yet?

Mutually Assured Destruction.....just like India and Pakistan.



The important thing is to convince the American public that Iran will attack Israel if they have a nuclear weapon and then let their Christian prophecy minds fill in the blanks.

So, if you'll indulge me for a moment, IF Israel has a nuclear arsenal (as we strongly suspect but never has been admitted) then that possible fact alone has been paramount to their survival, to the very status quo you mention. Even if they do not actually possess the bomb, just the possibility has protected Israel...

And the world has clearly benefitted from this tentative "peace".

Then it follows that a militarily strong Israel has in fact been the major reason for the kooky way that part of the world has not blown itself up. The old "best defense is a strong offense" works according to you (I might agree). The very theory that went into the reason to develop the "Ultimate Peace Weapon" has proven to be, after 6 or 7 decades, correct?

Smart move for everyone to make that our policy.

I'm with you on that. But don't blame Israel (or me!) for the Republicans and their Christian prophesy working on the American consciousness. They do that by and for themselves...cuz obviously Israel only distributes the prequel, if you catch my drift.

Now the simple question...would you like to see Israel removed from the map? Not asking if you are an antisemite. Are you for removing Eretz Yisrael from this world?
rfenst Offline
#38 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,349
frankj1 wrote:

Now the simple question...would you like to see Israel removed from the map? Not asking if you are an antisemite. Are you for removing Eretz Yisrael from this world?


The silence is deafening.
Of course he favors that- he's French!
bloody spaniard Offline
#39 Posted:
Joined: 03-14-2003
Posts: 43,802
rfenst wrote:
The silence is deafening.
Of course he favors that- he's French!



Are the French supposed to be anti-semitic, or for that matter, is the rest of Europe?
Interesting question. Their politics, such as not allowing flyovers, appear to reflect that.
I have also read accounts where rabbis have trash tossed at them in the Ukraine but I thought these might be anecdotal.
HockeyDad Offline
#40 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,160
rfenst wrote:
The silence is deafening.
Of course he favors that- he's French!



I swear to God.....I can't even take a break to sleep around you Jews when you're in attack mode!
HockeyDad Offline
#41 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,160
bloody spaniard wrote:
Are the French supposed to be anti-semitic, or for that matter, is the rest of Europe?
Interesting question. Their politics, such as not allowing flyovers, appear to reflect that.
I have also read accounts where rabbis have trash tossed at them in the Ukraine but I thought these might be anecdotal.




This can be answered fairly easy by looking at at little recent history. France has the third largest Jewish population in the world (behind Israel and the USA) because the French did a very good job at hiding their Jews while the rest of Europe coughed them up pretty easy to the Nazis. That is also why there has not been a large Jewish migration from France to Israel since World War 2.

Now when compared to Ukraine or even Russia.....well... Israel is rapidly becoming Russian in nature instead of western European. It is not uncommon that Israeli websites are now in Hebrew, English, and Russian.




Israel has crafted a very popular theory that anyone that does not bow to Israel is anti-Semitic. Evangelical Christians buy into this at near 100% levels.
HockeyDad Offline
#42 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,160
frankj1 wrote:
Now the simple question...would you like to see Israel removed from the map? Not asking if you are an antisemite. Are you for removing Eretz Yisrael from this world?



I would not like to see this happen at all.

If Israel were removed from the map, Christian prophecy would be invalidated completely. Jewish prophecy would be invalidated completely. Muslim prophecy would be validated and we would all need to acquire prayer rugs. My knees aren't going to like that. I don't care for getting on my knees to Israel so I'm going to hate getting on my knees 6 times a day to Saudi Arabia!

HockeyDad Offline
#43 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,160
You guys all should be happy. I've said all along that you are going to get your war. It is coming and is just in the build-up/public relations phase. (think back to the games leading up to Iraq II)

When the time comes I will be heavily invested in oil and US military industrial stocks. I'll be standing right beside you guys screaming for war!

The question will be will you send your sons and daughters off to the war or will you send other peoples' kids instead!
bloody spaniard Offline
#44 Posted:
Joined: 03-14-2003
Posts: 43,802
You appear to be very high strung when it comes to this topic, HD.
You got caffeine in your homebrew?

Wonder what you've got vested (or should I say invested?) in calling out the Evangelicals & Israel and in attempting to discredit prophecy?
HockeyDad Offline
#45 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,160
bloody spaniard wrote:
You appear to be very high strung when it comes to this topic, HD.
You got caffeine in your homebrew?

Wonder what you've got vested (or should I say invested?) in calling out the Evangelicals & Israel and in attempting to discredit prophecy?




There is absolutely no way I'm going to invest contrary to the Evangelicals & Israel. No way! I'm going to be right there standing next to you guys. (Actually standing behind you! Charge!)
HockeyDad Offline
#46 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,160
I do get a kick out of every time when I don't buy into the belief that "USA must go to war whenever Israel tell it to" mentality, people get seriously outraged.

War Eagle! (or is that Auburn?)
rfenst Offline
#47 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,349
bloody spaniard wrote:
You appear to be very high strung when it comes to this topic, HD.
You got caffeine in your homebrew?

Wonder what you've got vested (or should I say invested?) in calling out the Evangelicals & Israel and in attempting to discredit prophecy?


Interesting observation.
DrafterX Offline
#48 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,559
Is there oil in Israel..?? Huh
HockeyDad Offline
#49 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,160
DrafterX wrote:
Is there oil in Israel..?? Huh


Natural gas offshore near Lebanese waters.
FuzzNJ Offline
#50 Posted:
Joined: 06-28-2006
Posts: 13,000
HockeyDad wrote:

Israel has crafted a very popular theory that anyone that does not bow to Israel is anti-Semitic. Evangelical Christians buy into this at near 100% levels.


What do you know about evangelical christians? You just hate christians and your contempt for them shows.
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