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More insider trading by elected officials. Boehner and Canadian oil companies.
daveincincy Offline
#51 Posted:
Joined: 08-11-2006
Posts: 20,033
Way to turn it around and point the finger in another direction.

Seriously, does this need an explanation. Your savings account isn't an investment. You put your money in the bank (post-tax) and the bank pays you interest (sometimes) for letting them hold it...which is income not a capital gain. If you want capital gains from a bank then buy stock in that bank....but you have to sell the stock higher than what you bought it at....that's just a free investment tip from me to you. ThumpUp

Don't criticize/judge what you don't understand. I don't understand all the rules Romney and Buffett play by, but if I had their kind of money, or a fraction of it, I'd certainly be willing to play in the game to minimize my taxes. I take advantage of any breaks I can get at my level (which isn't worth bragging about). Should I feel bad that my adjusted tax rate might be lower than someone who made 20%, 50% or 75% of what I made? Hellz no. Why does everything have to be "fair?" There always has been, and always will be, the "haves" and "have nots." Get over yourselves (not you specifically, but yourselves in general). You (again, not "you" specifically, but "you" in general) probably won't get that corner office on the 20th floor or make a 6-figure income or even 50k/year or live in a 3000, 5000, or 10,000 sq ft house. Yet this is totally unfair that some people will have all that. Frankly, it seems everyone has lost their minds and wants to live a celebrity lifestyle (another tangent for another thread). There's always going to be a level of tension between the classes. It's human nature. There is no justice when it comes to money. Enough is never enough no matter how rich or poor you are. If you can figure out what is "enough" for you and be content with that, you're on the right path. I'm not there yet, personally, because I am part of the "99%" that aren't content...and I may never get there. :shrug:
bloody spaniard Offline
#52 Posted:
Joined: 03-14-2003
Posts: 43,802
While I would agree with just about everything you said in a more perfect world scenario, Dave, the fact is that we're not all playing on a level playing field.
The country is quickly degenerating into haves & have nots. If this is not evident to some, it soon will be when the trickle down ramifications come to your job.

Frankly, at this stage, I don't know what the remedy is other than to work hard & keep the faith as we get ready to go over the falls. We may still survive & swim to the shore.Boo hoo!
DrafterX Offline
#53 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,582
bloody spaniard wrote:

Frankly, at this stage, I don't know what the remedy is other than to work hard & keep the faith as we get ready to go over the falls. We may still survive & swim to the shore.Boo hoo!




Mellow


did you take your vitamins today..?? Shame on you
bloody spaniard Offline
#54 Posted:
Joined: 03-14-2003
Posts: 43,802
DrafterX wrote:
Mellow
did you take your vitamins today..?? Shame on you


Why, you think adaptogens will improve my outlook? LOL!
Move over. I think you have room for one more in your plastic bubble.Gonz
Ragin' Cajun Offline
#55 Posted:
Joined: 07-20-2009
Posts: 835
FuzzNJ wrote:
No. This is how Romney does it. When he did receive a salary from Bain he claimed it as capital gains, a little trick because the profit the company makes is from investments.

The real question is why is there this disparity? I know the republicans say it's been taxed already, and perhaps the initial money in the investment was salary and paid a higher rate, but in Romney and Buffet and others in the invester class like you said, most of it is capital gains that they use to invest personally so it was also taxed at a really low rate. Return on investment should be considered income, especially when we're talking numbers as big as these. We have to claim our interest we earn on savings accounts as income and pay interest on it at our top marginal rate. The wealthy, like Mitt, who earn 60k a day on just investment income pays 13.9%.


First off, Mitt paid an effective rate of 17.58%. When determining effective rate you divide total tax by taxable income. Secondly, all of the interest earned plus his other earnings outside of dividends and capital gains are taxed at a minimum of 28% since he was subject to AMT. By using the 13.9% rate the media is discounting the fact that he donated 13.78% of his gross income to charity. (How much did Obama and Biden donate prior to taking up residence in the White House?)

Most Americans are taxed at a much lower effective rate than they may think. I get that some people don't like the 15% rule, but it benefits a lot more people than just the rich. Let's not forget that nearly half of the country doesn't pay any income tax, and some get back more than they paid in thanks to the earned income credit.
daveincincy Offline
#56 Posted:
Joined: 08-11-2006
Posts: 20,033
bloody spaniard wrote:
While I would agree with just about everything you said in a more perfect world scenario, Dave, the fact is that we're not all playing on a level playing field.
The country is quickly degenerating into haves & have nots. If this is not evident to some, it soon will be when the trickle down ramifications come to your job.

Frankly, at this stage, I don't know what the remedy is other than to work hard & keep the faith as we get ready to go over the falls. We may still survive & swim to the shore.Boo hoo!


Oh....it's evident...and I'm feeling it from a few angles. If I said "I'm not concerned, personally," well then I'd be a liar. I never liked politics and never really followed them. That's still pretty much true even now. But I find myself getting more and more frustrated now more than ever before at all the political BS. It seems that some of the most common sense things that should be done in this economy are not being done. Instead, politicians are battling over some of the most ridiculous things. All in the name of what? Votes? Acceptance? We should all know that common sense and logic never enters a politicians thought process, and IMO it's even worse now. I guess that's what you get when you have a house full of lawyers. They're only in it to gain two things...leverage and a win. No offense to the resident cbid ESQ's. But with that many lawyers in Washington, it's a lose/lose for us.

As you said, work hard and keep the faith. There's plenty of battles to consume one's mind. I try not to let politics be one of them.
daveincincy Offline
#57 Posted:
Joined: 08-11-2006
Posts: 20,033
Ragin' Cajun wrote:
Most Americans are taxed at a much lower effective rate than they may think. I get that some people don't like the 15% rule, but it benefits a lot more people than just the rich. Let's not forget that nearly half of the country doesn't pay any income tax, and some get back more than they paid in thanks to the earned income credit.


When the average Joe needs to sell their house out of necessity, the 15% capital gains tax that they were screaming about being "too F'n low" will then be considered "too F'n high." However, I suppose certain tax laws put in place could make the gain on the sale exempt (if they're lucky enough to have a gain).

Disclaimer: certain rules and regulations may apply...please consult a qualified individual for advice on how these rules may affect you on the sale of your home. Whistle
FuzzNJ Offline
#58 Posted:
Joined: 06-28-2006
Posts: 13,000
daveincincy wrote:
Way to turn it around and point the finger in another direction.

Seriously, does this need an explanation. Your savings account isn't an investment. You put your money in the bank (post-tax) and the bank pays you interest (sometimes) for letting them hold it...which is income not a capital gain. If you want capital gains from a bank then buy stock in that bank....but you have to sell the stock higher than what you bought it at....that's just a free investment tip from me to you. ThumpUp

Don't criticize/judge what you don't understand. I don't understand all the rules Romney and Buffett play by, but if I had their kind of money, or a fraction of it, I'd certainly be willing to play in the game to minimize my taxes. I take advantage of any breaks I can get at my level (which isn't worth bragging about). Should I feel bad that my adjusted tax rate might be lower than someone who made 20%, 50% or 75% of what I made? Hellz no. Why does everything have to be "fair?" There always has been, and always will be, the "haves" and "have nots." Get over yourselves (not you specifically, but yourselves in general). You (again, not "you" specifically, but "you" in general) probably won't get that corner office on the 20th floor or make a 6-figure income or even 50k/year or live in a 3000, 5000, or 10,000 sq ft house. Yet this is totally unfair that some people will have all that. Frankly, it seems everyone has lost their minds and wants to live a celebrity lifestyle (another tangent for another thread). There's always going to be a level of tension between the classes. It's human nature. There is no justice when it comes to money. Enough is never enough no matter how rich or poor you are. If you can figure out what is "enough" for you and be content with that, you're on the right path. I'm not there yet, personally, because I am part of the "99%" that aren't content...and I may never get there. :shrug:


First, who did I point a finger to and how did I try to point anything in another direction. What I said was factual and relevent to the article in question. It does not calculate all taxes paid to the Federal Government. It is comparing apples to oranges, Buffet's total federal taxes is the apple, his secretary's partial federal taxes is the orange.

Income from 'investments' in stock, interest and salary from Bain are only different from interest that the middle class pays on full tax on is the amount of money we're talking about. Both started with funds that were already taxed, at what rate depends on how it's earned and how much it is. The rich investors like Buffet and Romney who take their salaray and claim it as capital gains, so a lower rate again. The income from savings accounts and other investments that the majority of America make, is taxed at the full rate as if it was salary. 6 of 1, 1/2 a dozen of the other.

I also didn't say what they were doing was bad, unethecal or illegal, it is all legal and that is what the problem is.

And again, it's not jealousy or envy or anything else the ruling class would want you to think because it deflects the issue, it's a discussion of public policy and how it is rigged to help keep the rich rich and keep the middle class footing the bills at a much higher rate than those who benefit the most from our tax dollars. Personally I couldn't care less if I am not rich. I hardly ever think about money, but then I'm not starving and I can pay all my bills and I am extremely lucky that there is a large amount of capital in our family to back us all up barring any major catastrophe, but then we're all f'd.
FuzzNJ Offline
#59 Posted:
Joined: 06-28-2006
Posts: 13,000
Ragin' Cajun wrote:
First off, Mitt paid an effective rate of 17.58%. When determining effective rate you divide total tax by taxable income. Secondly, all of the interest earned plus his other earnings outside of dividends and capital gains are taxed at a minimum of 28% since he was subject to AMT. By using the 13.9% rate the media is discounting the fact that he donated 13.78% of his gross income to charity. (How much did Obama and Biden donate prior to taking up residence in the White House?)

Most Americans are taxed at a much lower effective rate than they may think. I get that some people don't like the 15% rule, but it benefits a lot more people than just the rich. Let's not forget that nearly half of the country doesn't pay any income tax, and some get back more than they paid in thanks to the earned income credit.



They may not pay federal income taxes, but they do pay all the payroll taxes and other taxes that are withdrawn out of their paycheck, anywhere from 10 to 35% depending on income.

In 2010 Mitt Romney's paid a rate of 13.9% in federal taxes on his income. The only income where he would pay more is from his speaking fees, which was 1.7% of his income that year. All the rest was capital gains including the money he took out of Bain as his salary.


Charity is not taxes, why should we take that into consideration? He was able to deduct his charitable donations and pay even less tax because of it. I don't think we should remove that as a deduction, but it certainly has nothing to do with this particular conversation.
Ragin' Cajun Offline
#60 Posted:
Joined: 07-20-2009
Posts: 835
FuzzNJ wrote:
They may not pay federal income taxes, but they do pay all the payroll taxes and other taxes that are withdrawn out of their paycheck, anywhere from 10 to 35% depending on income.

In 2010 Mitt Romney's paid a rate of 13.9% in federal taxes on his income. The only income where he would pay more is from his speaking fees, which was 1.7% of his income that year. All the rest was capital gains including the money he took out of Bain as his salary.


Charity is not taxes, why should we take that into consideration? He was able to deduct his charitable donations and pay even less tax because of it. I don't think we should remove that as a deduction, but it certainly has nothing to do with this particular conversation.


Sorry, I'm a CPA and I have reviewed the actual 2010 return. Since you wish to discount deductions from Schedule A and base your argument solely on gross income then I submit the following.

Gross income at ordinary rate 6,214,956
Gross income at 15% rate 15,446,388

As you can see, a little over 28% of Mitt's income is subject to ordinary income tax, specifically no less than 28% since he is subject to AMT. Please be aware I am no fan of Mitt, and I actually agree that carried interest should be ordinary income. But if you want to argue fairness, is it fair that nearly half of the country pays no income tax and some actually get more back than they pay in by use of the earned income tax credit.
FuzzNJ Offline
#61 Posted:
Joined: 06-28-2006
Posts: 13,000
Ragin' Cajun wrote:
Sorry, I'm a CPA and I have reviewed the actual 2010 return. Since you wish to discount deductions from Schedule A and base your argument solely on gross income then I submit the following.

Gross income at ordinary rate 6,214,956
Gross income at 15% rate 15,446,388

As you can see, a little over 28% of Mitt's income is subject to ordinary income tax, specifically no less than 28% since he is subject to AMT. Please be aware I am no fan of Mitt, and I actually agree that carried interest should be ordinary income. But if you want to argue fairness, is it fair that nearly half of the country pays no income tax and some actually get more back than they pay in by use of the earned income tax credit.



You know what you gotta do then right? You need to correct every single analysis made on Romney's 2010 tax return then because you are the only one that has the right answer apparently. I'm amazed. Call all news outlets and make sure they have your information.

Hell, even Romney said close to 15% before he relased his tax forms, you need to correct him too.
HockeyDad Offline
#62 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,190
CPA Induced FuzzRage Outrage!
Ragin' Cajun Offline
#63 Posted:
Joined: 07-20-2009
Posts: 835
Wow, how very gradeschool of you. He actually said it was closer to 15% and as I have stated his effective rate was just over 17%. Yes, let's believe the talking media heads rather than a professional tax practitioner in matters of tax. Make sure you let 'those analysts' complete your tax return and any other professional service for you since they always know what they are saying.....
FuzzNJ Offline
#64 Posted:
Joined: 06-28-2006
Posts: 13,000
Ragin' Cajun wrote:
Wow, how very gradeschool of you. He actually said it was closer to 15% and as I have stated his effective rate was just over 17%. Yes, let's believe the talking media heads rather than a professional tax practitioner in matters of tax. Make sure you let 'those analysts' complete your tax return and any other professional service for you since they always know what they are saying.....



I know it's weird and all, but yeah, I believe every single news report from business and news sites over an anonymous person on a message board who provides nothing but a 'trust me I'm a CPA' argument. How irrational of me.

Tell me, what contributed to the income figure that made up the portion taxed at the 'normal rate'?

Here is what I think you are doing here. You are running two years into one on taxes paid, but only one year of income. Double check that and get back to me with the figures you are using to determine is 'actual' rate and we can continue a conversation.

I'm right, you are wrong because you are brainwashed by right wing talking heads, 'trust me'. See how ridiculous that looks?



Ragin' Cajun Offline
#65 Posted:
Joined: 07-20-2009
Posts: 835
FuzzNJ wrote:
I know it's weird and all, but yeah, I believe every single news report from business and news sites over an anonymous person on a message board who provides nothing but a 'trust me I'm a CPA' argument. How irrational of me.

Tell me, what contributed to the income figure that made up the portion taxed at the 'normal rate'?

Here is what I think you are doing here. You are running two years into one on taxes paid, but only one year of income. Double check that and get back to me with the figures you are using to determine is 'actual' rate and we can continue a conversation.

I'm right, you are wrong because you are brainwashed by right wing talking heads, 'trust me'. See how ridiculous that looks?





I have no problem if you question my source, my numbers, or even my credentials, but grade school retorts like the one before are frankly immature. The following is a direct link to the 2010 return. Please see page 36 and 37 where AMT is calculated. You can see exactly how the tax is calculated and should you have any questions I will gladly answer them.
Ragin' Cajun Offline
#66 Posted:
Joined: 07-20-2009
Posts: 835
Arrrrg..the aforementioned link

http://c4230422.r22.cf2.rackcdn.com/1040-2010.pdf
HockeyDad Offline
#67 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,190
It is like one of those managed hunts in Texas where they release some gazelle from behind some fake trees and the hunter shots it.

FuzzNJ Offline
#68 Posted:
Joined: 06-28-2006
Posts: 13,000
Ragin' Cajun wrote:
I have no problem if you question my source, my numbers, or even my credentials, but grade school retorts like the one before are frankly immature. The following is a direct link to the 2010 return. Please see page 36 and 37 where AMT is calculated. You can see exactly how the tax is calculated and should you have any questions I will gladly answer them.


Grade school? I was serious. You say you have the correct figures and the media, all of them are wrong. You should set the story straight if you are expert enough to figure this out correctly. At least send an email or two.

Ok, from the forms you linked here are the figures.

21,646,507 Total adjusted gross income

4,619,207 Total tax payments line 72
1,609,441 Amount overpaid line 73

3,009,776 Line 72-73 total tax line 6

3,009,776 is 13.904210% of 21,646,507

13.9% is correct.
Ragin' Cajun Offline
#69 Posted:
Joined: 07-20-2009
Posts: 835
Again, effective tax rate is tax/taxable income. If you want to base on gross income then you are pandering much like the media. Since tax rates are based on 'taxable' income one must use taxable income as the basis to determine his effective tax rate. Secondly, during the ongoing discussion you said only 1% of his income was taxed at ordinary rates and the return clearly shows this not to be the case. I know for you it all boils down to a fairness issue and we can discuss that if you wish, but I was trying to point out some misconceptions you had regarding the actual numbers.
FuzzNJ Offline
#70 Posted:
Joined: 06-28-2006
Posts: 13,000
Ragin' Cajun wrote:
Again, effective tax rate is tax/taxable income. If you want to base on gross income then you are pandering much like the media. Since tax rates are based on 'taxable' income one must use taxable income as the basis to determine his effective tax rate. Secondly, during the ongoing discussion you said only 1% of his income was taxed at ordinary rates and the return clearly shows this not to be the case. I know for you it all boils down to a fairness issue and we can discuss that if you wish, but I was trying to point out some misconceptions you had regarding the actual numbers.



Ah, I see what you did there then. So tell me, when comparing this to say what someone who has a different income pays, is that how it's calculated? With taxable income being the figure used instead of gross income?

What is your tax rate determined by? How much you make or your adjusted taxable income?

I think you know the answer to both.

So who is pandering and playing with numbers?

Example:

According to a letter Buffett sent to Rep. Tim Huelskamp (R-Kansas) that the Congressman posted here, the billionaire had adjusted gross income in 2010 of $62,855,038, taxable income of $39,814,784, and a federal income tax bill of$6,923,494. That makes his effective tax rate, as a percentage of AGI, just 11.06%, compared to an average effective rate in 2008 (the most recent year available) of 18.1% of AGI for the 400 taxpayers with the largest incomes, according to figures reported by the Internal Revenue Service.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/janetnovack/2011/10/12/warren-buffets-effective-federal-income-tax-rate-is-just-11/


Wow, a Republican used gross income to calculate that for Buffet. That wouldn't be political would it?
ZRX1200 Offline
#71 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,661
He paid a lower % than Romney????!!!!
daveincincy Offline
#72 Posted:
Joined: 08-11-2006
Posts: 20,033
I got a little, you got a lot
Let's put it all in one big pot...

We'll call it the "Fairness" song. Sing it, Fuzz. You probably know the words.
FuzzNJ Offline
#73 Posted:
Joined: 06-28-2006
Posts: 13,000
ZRX1200 wrote:
He paid a lower % than Romney????!!!!



Looks that way. He's richer, much richer, but the same principle applies. Using the same calculations of gross income/taxes paid Mitt is 13.9, Buffet 11.

ZRX1200 Offline
#74 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,661
So the champion of higher taxes is a bigger taxdodger than Mittens? Hmmmm.
FuzzNJ Offline
#75 Posted:
Joined: 06-28-2006
Posts: 13,000
ZRX1200 wrote:
So the champion of higher taxes is a bigger taxdodger than Mittens? Hmmmm.


Dodger? No one is calling anyone a dodger. What they are doing is legal and expected because of how the laws are written. Advocating that those laws change for the economic strength of the entire country does not mean that the person has to double their taxes voluntarily. If you think going to war in Iraq or Iran is the right course to take, does that mean you have to go fight in the war yourself?
wheelrite Offline
#76 Posted:
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
Well why won't Buffet/Berkshire just go ahead and pay the millions in back taxes he owes ? Instead of going to court?
daveincincy Offline
#77 Posted:
Joined: 08-11-2006
Posts: 20,033
If Buffett wants to voluntarily give more money to the IRS, he's more than welcome to do that. He can do it as a service to his country...and to clear his conscience.
Ragin' Cajun Offline
#78 Posted:
Joined: 07-20-2009
Posts: 835
I never mentioned political party, only that it is not correct or fair to calculate tax rate using AGI. Your definition would mean that people who made the exact same salary could have different 'tax rates' depending on the itemized deductions whereas my method bases the rate on taxable income which is exactly the number the tax rates are applied to.

And yes I know the answer to both, to determine what tax rate to use when calculating income tax you take TAXABLE INCOME and apply it to the IRS tables. I guess that means you are pandering and playing with the numbers?
FuzzNJ Offline
#79 Posted:
Joined: 06-28-2006
Posts: 13,000
daveincincy wrote:
If Buffett wants to voluntarily give more money to the IRS, he's more than welcome to do that. He can do it as a service to his country...and to clear his conscience.


Damn, you are just a right wing talking point after another. What good would that do? Is that a public policy issue? Would it solve any of the economic problems the country is facing? Of course not. It's a political game you are copying and repeating. If you want to solve a problem, you talk about public policy and what is best for the country, not what one person, no matter how wealthy, should or shouldn't do.
FuzzNJ Offline
#80 Posted:
Joined: 06-28-2006
Posts: 13,000
wheelrite wrote:
Well why won't Buffet/Berkshire just go ahead and pay the millions in back taxes he owes ? Instead of going to court?


/shrug You'll have to ask him.
FuzzNJ Offline
#81 Posted:
Joined: 06-28-2006
Posts: 13,000
Ragin' Cajun wrote:
I never mentioned political party, only that it is not correct or fair to calculate tax rate using AGI. Your definition would mean that people who made the exact same salary could have different 'tax rates' depending on the itemized deductions whereas my method bases the rate on taxable income which is exactly the number the tax rates are applied to.

And yes I know the answer to both, to determine what tax rate to use when calculating income tax you take TAXABLE INCOME and apply it to the IRS tables. I guess that means you are pandering and playing with the numbers?


So you are recommending that when making comparisons of tax liability percentage everyone use the AGI rather than the gross income. That's fine. It's just not how it's being done for comparisons, as I showed with the Buffet article. If you want that to be the calculation, then adjust everyone's % to be the same. It's a matter of comparing apples to apples.

So then with your figures he pays what, 17% or so? What's the average rate for working Americans? Higher right?

That's the issue. He and people in his position pay a lower rate, 13.9, 17, both are lower than the national average. So now that you have determined the best way to compare and contrast tax rates for a public policy you should tell forbes and the republican party that they calculated Buffet's tax rate incorrectly as well as everyone else that is being used for comparison, including Buffet's secretary. That would be comparing apples to apples too, right?

What do you think the difference would be between the two numbers with that set of figures? Would it decrease the disparity or increase it?
Ragin' Cajun Offline
#82 Posted:
Joined: 07-20-2009
Posts: 835
Well ok, I just found actual data from IRS using your method of contrasting tax paid as a percentage of AGI, which is still not an effective tax rate since it excludes all deductions and exemptions but at least we can do an apples to apples comparison. As you correctly calculated, Mitt paid 13.9% tax on his AGI. The link below shows average is 11% but that is not 'average' American rather the country as a whole. It does however show the rate as compared to AGI for various income levels. Now, under this chart Mitt would still be well above the national average. However I will not assume what the 'average' American pays as that is totally subjective. Please note the chart presented is only based on individuals who actually had a tax liability after credits and deductions, which leaves out a substantial portion of the population.

http://taxfoundation.org/blog/show/27899.html

Now that we have put the calculation issues, and the insults behind us, I will gladly discuss the 'fairness' issue of the 15% rate if you wish.
FuzzNJ Offline
#83 Posted:
Joined: 06-28-2006
Posts: 13,000
Ragin' Cajun wrote:
Well ok, I just found actual data from IRS using your method of contrasting tax paid as a percentage of AGI, which is still not an effective tax rate since it excludes all deductions and exemptions but at least we can do an apples to apples comparison.



WTF? I, and everyone else, was calculating it with gross income. AGI was your calculation.

Jesus on a pogo stick!
Ragin' Cajun Offline
#84 Posted:
Joined: 07-20-2009
Posts: 835
No I calculated it based on taxable income which it was the tax rates are applied to. That is what effective tax rate is. However, so we can compare apples to apples across a broad sprectrum, the data above at least keeps everyone on the same playing field.
FuzzNJ Offline
#85 Posted:
Joined: 06-28-2006
Posts: 13,000
Ragin' Cajun wrote:
Well ok, I just found actual data from IRS using your method of contrasting tax paid as a percentage of AGI, which is still not an effective tax rate since it excludes all deductions and exemptions but at least we can do an apples to apples comparison. As you correctly calculated, Mitt paid 13.9% tax on his AGI. The link below shows average is 11% but that is not 'average' American rather the country as a whole. It does however show the rate as compared to AGI for various income levels. Now, under this chart Mitt would still be well above the national average. However I will not assume what the 'average' American pays as that is totally subjective. Please note the chart presented is only based on individuals who actually had a tax liability after credits and deductions, which leaves out a substantial portion of the population.

http://taxfoundation.org/blog/show/27899.html

Now that we have put the calculation issues, and the insults behind us, I will gladly discuss the 'fairness' issue of the 15% rate if you wish.




Got confused with agi and gross income, which in Romney's case is only 15k difference. My bad.

Next, the average American's tax burden is NOT subjective, it is a calculation. The IRS calculated it at 20% in 2007. If you want to play around with the term 'average' and who/what is average, then ok, we'll need a definition from you and then readjust the IRS figures accordingly.

And again, most of the people who say don't have a tax liability actually do pay taxes that the higher income interest earning class do not pay past 100k or so that would have to be added to the calculation since that is included as taxes paid.

Now as far as comparisons go I'm glad you realized you were comparing apples to oranges though. It's a breakthrough.
Ragin' Cajun Offline
#86 Posted:
Joined: 07-20-2009
Posts: 835
Wow you really are something! I never compared anything, I simply corrected you on your calculation of effective tax rate and the amount of income Mitt had that was subject to ordinary income tax. I actually found the data that allows apple to apple comparisons. Your assertion that the effective rate for the 'average' American was 20% in 2007 is based on what? Based on data I provided which is from 2009 the average rate is 11% for all Americans. My statement about not determining 'average' American was in relation to what one would consider to be an 'average' American. That determination would be subjective unless you assume the average rate of all Americans is indicative of the average Joe. I would disagree since the chart I showed indicates only those who paid income tax, not the significant portion of the population that does not. You are trying everything you can to prove a point regardless of the facts presented.
FuzzNJ Offline
#87 Posted:
Joined: 06-28-2006
Posts: 13,000
Ragin' Cajun wrote:
Wow you really are something! I never compared anything, I simply corrected you on your calculation of effective tax rate and the amount of income Mitt had that was subject to ordinary income tax. I actually found the data that allows apple to apple comparisons. Your assertion that the effective rate for the 'average' American was 20% in 2007 is based on what? Based on data I provided which is from 2009 the average rate is 11% for all Americans. My statement about not determining 'average' American was in relation to what one would consider to be an 'average' American. That determination would be subjective unless you assume the average rate of all Americans is indicative of the average Joe. I would disagree since the chart I showed indicates only those who paid income tax, not the significant portion of the population that does not. You are trying everything you can to prove a point regardless of the facts presented.


And that's why this conversation was so pointless. If you knew that the comparisons were being made using gross income for the people we are talking about it would have probably been more efficient to mention that in the first place. After all it is the reason for the discussion in the first place. Shoule everyone in the media begin to use the 'proper' calculation the all is fine and I'll go with it, but as of now everyone but CPA's are using the same incorrect calculation. Using 17% compared to Buffet's 11% is not comparing the same thing.

2007
Median Income single worker 26,000
Income and payroll tax 6,084
That's 23%

Top 400 earners
Income 344,759,000
Income and payroll tax 58,176,761
18%

Ragin' Cajun Offline
#88 Posted:
Joined: 07-20-2009
Posts: 835
I do not consider it pointless as it was a clarification of fact as related to the definition of effective tax rate. I also proved you were wrong as to the percentage of Mitt's income that was subject to ordinary income tax as well as a few other minor issues. I mentioned several times I was willing to discuss the fairness of the 15% rate if you so desire.

As to your calculation above, why are you using 2007 numbers when I provided 2009 data? Is it because the 2007 data fits your opinion as it relates to 2010 information we are discussing even though the current data disproves your theory? Please note I am willing to discuss topics with you and willing to admit when my opinion may be based on facts or even my 'gut'. Hell I'm even willing to keep it civil and not resort to petty insults. I know you are used to being harassed a bit by the other guys here of which you complain about regularly, but when someone comes to you with facts and adult discourse like I have you dodge and insult. I'll not waste my time if you do not wish to be intellectually honest and keep it civil.
FuzzNJ Offline
#89 Posted:
Joined: 06-28-2006
Posts: 13,000
Ragin' Cajun wrote:
I do not consider it pointless as it was a clarification of fact as related to the definition of effective tax rate. I also proved you were wrong as to the percentage of Mitt's income that was subject to ordinary income tax as well as a few other minor issues. I mentioned several times I was willing to discuss the fairness of the 15% rate if you so desire.

As to your calculation above, why are you using 2007 numbers when I provided 2009 data? Is it because the 2007 data fits your opinion as it relates to 2010 information we are discussing even though the current data disproves your theory? Please note I am willing to discuss topics with you and willing to admit when my opinion may be based on facts or even my 'gut'. Hell I'm even willing to keep it civil and not resort to petty insults. I know you are used to being harassed a bit by the other guys here of which you complain about regularly, but when someone comes to you with facts and adult discourse like I have you dodge and insult. I'll not waste my time if you do not wish to be intellectually honest and keep it civil.


Sure, you are a CPA, you live numbers. For purposes of comparisons in this discussion it's not the formula being used. What is important in that context is comparing the same things, not the effective tax rate for Romney, but the tax rate calculation being used to compare outside of the cpa office.

I'm using 2007 because it was the latest numbers I could find most easily. it would be astounding for it to have gone down by double digits without a major tax reform bill.

And stop with the petty insults thing, I have not insulted you on this thread at all. Just been my normal argumentative self.
Ragin' Cajun Offline
#90 Posted:
Joined: 07-20-2009
Posts: 835
I have already provided you numbers directly from the IRS as of 2009 but you keep referring to 2007. Whether you like the numbers or not is irrelevant, the facts are still the facts. Romney paid several percentage points more in tax than America as a whole.

Assuming your 2007 median income number is still accurate, the average income tax rate for those Americans is 3-5% so Mitt pays over 3 to 4 times their rate. We can move on now to the next topic at your leisure.
pdxstogieman Offline
#91 Posted:
Joined: 10-04-2007
Posts: 5,219
Jesus, This thread is enough to make a person's head explode.
ZRX1200 Offline
#92 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,661
Pdx, long posts speak to a posters iq.
ZRX1200 Offline
#93 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,661
.
wheelrite Offline
#94 Posted:
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
ZRX1200 wrote:
Pdx, long posts speak to a posters iq.


verbose and bombastic,perhaps ?
frankj1 Offline
#95 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,252
well, regarding re: the op and insider trading...the question was asked several times to produce the facts of what was not public knowledge. Um, exactly how would the public know what was not public knowledge?
pdxstogieman Offline
#96 Posted:
Joined: 10-04-2007
Posts: 5,219
wheelrite wrote:
verbose and bombastic,perhaps ?


Or in your case concisely inane.
wheelrite Offline
#97 Posted:
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
pdxstogieman wrote:
Or in your case concisely inane.



Applause
HockeyDad Offline
#98 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,190
Frank,

Because the knowledge would have had to have become public later after the "insider" already acted on it. To be making the accusation now, we must know what that information was that gave them the unfair advantage.
Stinkdyr Offline
#99 Posted:
Joined: 06-16-2009
Posts: 9,948
HockeyDad wrote:
Frank,

Because the knowledge would have had to have become public later after the "insider" already acted on it. To be making the accusation now, we must know what that information was that gave them the unfair advantage.



Ed zachary. But don't expect fuzzywuzzy to get bogged down on details like supporting facts.

Herfing
FuzzNJ Offline
#100 Posted:
Joined: 06-28-2006
Posts: 13,000
Courtesy of various loopholes, members of both the House and Senate have long been allowed to trade on inside information, something that grabbed the media's attention when back in November 2005 someone, somewhere sent the stock of USG Corp., W.R. Grace & Co., and Crown Holdings higher even though there was no public information. Only later would it become known that then-Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist would deliver a speech announcing new legislation to relieve companies of asbestos litigation. Subsequent studies (such as Ziobrowski et al's 2004 paper “Abnormal Returns from the Common Stock Investments of the United States Senate.”) confirmed substantial market outperformance by members of Senate. A few days ago, Ziobrowski et al, have released a follow up study "Abnormal Returns From the Common Stock Investments of Members of the U.S. House of Representatives" which confirms that not only do congressional critters consistently outperform the market, but does a granular analysis of just who it is in congress that should consider leaving the public arena, and raising capital to start their own hedge fund: simply said, junior, democratic congressmen beat the market by roughly the same amount, with the same consistency (and probably with the same Sharpe ratio) that allows SAC to charge 3% and 35%.
In a nutshell, the latest stereotype is that if one is a junior democrat in Congress, and one trades for their own discretionary account, one most likely is doing so using insider information.
The conclusion.
In sum, the findings from this study of the U.S. House of Representatives’ common stock transactions are generally supportive of the previous study of the U.S. Senate. We find strong evidence that Members of the House have some type of nonpublic information which they use for personal gain. That having been said, abnormal returns earned by Members of the House are substantially smaller than those earned by Senators during approximately the same time period. These smaller returns are due presumably to less influence and power held by the individual Members. The nature and source or sources of information is unknown, but clearly further research is warranted. We recommend that congressional committees should be studied for abnormal returns and indications that members of those committees may favor stocks in industries their committees oversee. Abnormal returns associated with the common stocks of specific industries or companies should be investigated for patterns of potential misconduct. We suggest the examination of the relationships between campaign contributions, common stock acquisitions, and abnormal returns.
http://www.zerohedge.com/article/why-hedge-fund-comprised-junior-congressional-democrats-should-outperform-market-9


Stuart P. Green, JD, Professor of Law and Justice Nathan L. Jacobs Scholar at Rutgers School of Law, wrote in his May 13, 2008 email to ProCon.org:

"People in many fields of endeavor are privy to valuable confidential information before it is made public: For example, business executives, investment bankers, and lawyers have access to information about impending corporate mergers and acquisitions; Judges, juries, and court personnel have access to information about the probable outcome of court decisions; and officials at the FDA [Food and Drug Administration], EPA [Environmental Protection Agency], and other administrative agencies have access to information about the likely outcome of regulatory proceedings. All of these individuals are prohibited by law from using such confidential information in the purchase and sale of publicly traded stocks. Likewise, members of Congress and their staffs are also privy to valuable confidential information not yet made public. They have information about the likely outcome of various votes, committee proceedings, and investigations. Such information can be extremely valuable to investors. Those who buy and sell stock on the basis of such non-public information will have an obvious advantage over those who lack such information. This is not the sort of information that even the most savvy and sophisticated investor would be able to obtain legally. From a moral perspective, such informational advantages are indistinguishable from those enjoyed in more familiar forms of insider trading."

"'Senators' stocks beat the market by 12%' blared a headline in the Financial Times. So what? Isn't beating the market what everyone tries to do?... Like corporate executives, senators also have access to valuable inside information. They are aware of likely changes in the tax laws, government contracts, research funding, trade negotiations, etc. Any of these may have profound ramifications for the various companies or industries involved. In addition, those in Congress have the power to help or hurt individual companies and industries by changing the laws. This also can impact share price.

Unlike corporate executives, congressmen can trade common stocks without restriction, buying and selling as much as they want whenever they want. They may vote on issues in which they have a personal financial interest. Furthermore, Senate members are not required to report their transactions to the Securities and Exchange Commission like corporate insiders...

In fairness, just because they have the power to earn 'unfair' profits in the stock market does not necessarily mean they use it. Two-thirds of senators do not trade stocks at all and, so far, not a single member has admitted trading stocks based on confidential information he or she obtained on the job. The evidence, however, is rather compelling. In beating the market by 12% per year, the chance that they merely are lucky is very small."

May 2005 - Alan J. Ziobrowski, PhD

Sheila Kaplan, MA, Lecturer in the Political Reporting Program at the University of California at Berkeley Graduate School of Journalism, wrote in the article "Trust Busters" published in the Sep./Oct. 2005 issue of Mother Jones:

"Federal agency officials are generally prohibited from buying and selling stock in the companies they oversee. But Congress long ago exempted itself from ethics rules regarding investments. At one time this exemption made sense: Farmers wanted to be able to serve on the Agriculture Committee without selling their farms, for example. But many lawmakers now interpret this exception as carte blanche to invest after taking office.

...Some members, seeking to avoid the appearance of conflicts of interest, avoid buying stock or stow their assets in blind trusts. Others invest only in index funds or in diversified mutual funds. But a substantial share of House members and senators trade enthusiastically -- or, like Biggert [US Representative Judy Biggert (R-Ill)], permit their spouses and children to do so. An examination of the latest batch of financial disclosure reports, filed this summer for calendar year 2004, shows that dozens of lawmakers routinely buy and sell stock in industries they oversee, raising questions about whether they have an unfair advantage over the average investor."


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