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Last post 11 years ago by pdxstogieman. 43 replies replies.
Hope & Change Fails in the Arab World
HockeyDad Offline
#1 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,213
In Arab world, Obama has fallen from grace

A new poll suggests deep disappointment with the US and Obama’s policies in the Arab world. Middle East specialist Khaled Elgindy sheds light on how a president who once inspired new hope in the region has ended up disappointing so many.

US President Barack Obama’s speech in Cairo in June 2009 was seen as a potential start of a new chapter in relations between America and the Arab world.

But a new survey carried out by international polling firm YouGov in August shows that America today is deeply unpopular in the region; the number of respondents in the Middle East and North Africa who said they don’t trust America was more than double the number of respondents who said they do. 39% of those polled said they do not trust the US at all.

The poll implies that Obama’s more conciliatory tone toward the Arab world, as well as his ending of the war in Iraq and his support of the Arab Spring, have done little to boost America’s standing in the region.

France24.com spoke with Khaled Elgindy, a prominent Middle East specialist at the Brookings Institution in Washington DC, for insight into how a US president who initially inspired hope among Arabs fell so far short of expectations.

F24: The new poll shows Obama to be very unpopular in the Arab world. What are the major sources of disappointment?

Khaled Elgindy: There was obviously a lot of hope when he came in, huge expectations that Arabs and other Muslims had of him. The disappointment reflected in the poll is partly due to the fact that he didn’t live up to expectations. But it’s also because the expectations were exaggerated to begin with – and not just in the Arab world.

In the Arab world, the expectation was that he would do more on the Palestinian issue, which is, of course, a unifying theme in the minds of Arabs. From an Arab point of view, Obama has been consistently bad on that issue, even though in some Israeli circles he has also been seen as abandoning Israel.

Arabs are disappointed because, on the ground, policy has not really changed from the Bush era. Obama has not even reached the most minimal expectations of Arabs. There is a sense that he’s shown disregard for Palestinian government and Palestinian needs, and that it’s a very paternalistic relationship that the US has with Palestinians.

That stands in stark contrast to how the US has adapted its policies in the wake of the Arab Spring. In Egypt, the US has done a fairly good job in adapting to dramatic changes. Even though the president of Egypt is a member of the Muslim Brotherhood, the Obama administration had a very thoughtful approach to taking into account new Egyptian public opinion and sensibilities. There has been no such consideration when it comes to Palestinian politics.

F24: When we say Obama elicited a lot of hope, was that hope among regular Arabs or also among Arab diplomats and leaders?

KE: Both. I don’t know what exactly diplomats and leaders were thinking, but anecdotally, I would say that part of the hope came from the fact that people were relieved that Bush was gone. Obama is someone who doesn’t look or talk like Bush. That pushed expectations even higher. So a lot of it was just relief, because from an Arab point of view, Bush was responsible for a lot of harm: in Iraq, Palestine, and in the Muslim world. So now, they’re saying: “We thought this guy would be really different from Bush, but he’s actually pretty similar -- not in the things he says, but in the things he does.”

F24: In the the wake of the killing of the US ambassador in Libya, Mitt Romney has been attacking Obama on his response. Will this incident have an impact on the presidential race?

KE: It’s not unexpected in an election season that a candidate would use an incident like this for political advantage. And it will resonate in certain circles. But I’m not sure it’s going to have a major impact in one direction or another. This election is not about national security. From what I can gather, the Republicans are not running on national security or foreign policy issues. That could change in the wake of this, if there are more attacks on US embassies. But still, Republicans would have a lot of catching up to do.

This election is actually different, because Democrats have appropriated the language of national security, of being tough on defence. In the past, it was a Republican strength, and Democrats were on the defensive. It will take more than an incident like this to change back to the old dynamic.

F24: As an American president, what could Obama have done differently in concrete terms?

KE: A lot. One thing he should have done when he came in -- though I understand why he didn’t, given the need to have continuity from the previous administration -- is a thorough review of lessons learned from the US failures to advance the Israeli-Palestinian peace process. He should have looked at what’s worked, and what hasn’t. And then when negotiations between Abbas and Netanyahu collapsed two years ago, Obama should have reevaluated things. Instead of expecting a different outcome each time while doing the same thing, why not try to develop a new way forward?

There’s a political cost to each failure on all sides -- but especially when you’re the weakest side and as divided and dysfunctional as the Palestinians. They have no mandate to negotiate, they can’t handle failure. Calling on them to go back to a process that shows no signs of succeeding is proof that the Obama administration has not thought through the lessons of the past.
daveincincy Offline
#2 Posted:
Joined: 08-11-2006
Posts: 20,033
They (the Arab world) thought Obama would have his Muslim brothers' backs. Whistle
DrMaddVibe Offline
#3 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,633
He started the fire.

He wanted total appeasement.

He wanted acceptance and bowed to everyone.

Never in a million years did he believe that the World looked upon him with amusement. They KNOW an amateur when they see one!
teedubbya Offline
#4 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
The part that scares me is who are our pros? It certainly isn't the Big O and Romney has zero experience and is proving himself inept. That is scary.

We used to have a handful of people you could rely on..... I don't see many in the next group on either side..... the mayans and chicken little may be right
Papachristou Offline
#5 Posted:
Joined: 10-20-2010
Posts: 845
^ romney has experience in business not foreign policy. obama had experience in nothing when he took office.
teedubbya Offline
#6 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
Papachristou wrote:
^ romney has experience in business not foreign policy. obama had experience in nothing when he took office.


I don't disagree... all of the above are inept. That's my point
DrafterX Offline
#7 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,601
are they gonna take away his peace prize..?? Huh
teedubbya Offline
#8 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
DrafterX wrote:
are they gonna take away his peace prize..?? Huh


they should
OldSchool Offline
#9 Posted:
Joined: 07-21-2005
Posts: 1,542
Abdul Mustafa is the ultimate douchknuckle.
dkeage Offline
#10 Posted:
Joined: 03-05-2004
Posts: 15,162
OldSchool wrote:
Abdul Mustafa is the ultimate douchknuckle.



Is that his real name?
pdxstogieman Offline
#11 Posted:
Joined: 10-04-2007
Posts: 5,219
HockeyDad wrote:
In Arab world, Obama has fallen from grace

A new poll suggests deep disappointment with the US and Obama’s policies in the Arab world. Middle East specialist Khaled Elgindy sheds light on how a president who once inspired new hope in the region has ended up disappointing so many.

US President Barack Obama’s speech in Cairo in June 2009 was seen as a potential start of a new chapter in relations between America and the Arab world.

But a new survey carried out by international polling firm YouGov in August shows that America today is deeply unpopular in the region; the number of respondents in the Middle East and North Africa who said they don’t trust America was more than double the number of respondents who said they do. 39% of those polled said they do not trust the US at all.

The poll implies that Obama’s more conciliatory tone toward the Arab world, as well as his ending of the war in Iraq and his support of the Arab Spring, have done little to boost America’s standing in the region.

France24.com spoke with Khaled Elgindy, a prominent Middle East specialist at the Brookings Institution in Washington DC, for insight into how a US president who initially inspired hope among Arabs fell so far short of expectations.

F24: The new poll shows Obama to be very unpopular in the Arab world. What are the major sources of disappointment?

Khaled Elgindy: There was obviously a lot of hope when he came in, huge expectations that Arabs and other Muslims had of him. The disappointment reflected in the poll is partly due to the fact that he didn’t live up to expectations. But it’s also because the expectations were exaggerated to begin with – and not just in the Arab world.

In the Arab world, the expectation was that he would do more on the Palestinian issue, which is, of course, a unifying theme in the minds of Arabs. From an Arab point of view, Obama has been consistently bad on that issue, even though in some Israeli circles he has also been seen as abandoning Israel.

Arabs are disappointed because, on the ground, policy has not really changed from the Bush era. Obama has not even reached the most minimal expectations of Arabs. There is a sense that he’s shown disregard for Palestinian government and Palestinian needs, and that it’s a very paternalistic relationship that the US has with Palestinians.

That stands in stark contrast to how the US has adapted its policies in the wake of the Arab Spring. In Egypt, the US has done a fairly good job in adapting to dramatic changes. Even though the president of Egypt is a member of the Muslim Brotherhood, the Obama administration had a very thoughtful approach to taking into account new Egyptian public opinion and sensibilities. There has been no such consideration when it comes to Palestinian politics.

F24: When we say Obama elicited a lot of hope, was that hope among regular Arabs or also among Arab diplomats and leaders?

KE: Both. I don’t know what exactly diplomats and leaders were thinking, but anecdotally, I would say that part of the hope came from the fact that people were relieved that Bush was gone. Obama is someone who doesn’t look or talk like Bush. That pushed expectations even higher. So a lot of it was just relief, because from an Arab point of view, Bush was responsible for a lot of harm: in Iraq, Palestine, and in the Muslim world. So now, they’re saying: “We thought this guy would be really different from Bush, but he’s actually pretty similar -- not in the things he says, but in the things he does.”

F24: In the the wake of the killing of the US ambassador in Libya, Mitt Romney has been attacking Obama on his response. Will this incident have an impact on the presidential race?

KE: It’s not unexpected in an election season that a candidate would use an incident like this for political advantage. And it will resonate in certain circles. But I’m not sure it’s going to have a major impact in one direction or another. This election is not about national security. From what I can gather, the Republicans are not running on national security or foreign policy issues. That could change in the wake of this, if there are more attacks on US embassies. But still, Republicans would have a lot of catching up to do.

This election is actually different, because Democrats have appropriated the language of national security, of being tough on defence. In the past, it was a Republican strength, and Democrats were on the defensive. It will take more than an incident like this to change back to the old dynamic.

F24: As an American president, what could Obama have done differently in concrete terms?

KE: A lot. One thing he should have done when he came in -- though I understand why he didn’t, given the need to have continuity from the previous administration -- is a thorough review of lessons learned from the US failures to advance the Israeli-Palestinian peace process. He should have looked at what’s worked, and what hasn’t. And then when negotiations between Abbas and Netanyahu collapsed two years ago, Obama should have reevaluated things. Instead of expecting a different outcome each time while doing the same thing, why not try to develop a new way forward?

There’s a political cost to each failure on all sides -- but especially when you’re the weakest side and as divided and dysfunctional as the Palestinians. They have no mandate to negotiate, they can’t handle failure. Calling on them to go back to a process that shows no signs of succeeding is proof that the Obama administration has not thought through the lessons of the past.


Hmm....no source or attribution for this cut and paste. I've heard somewhere that, that is some kind of major deal on here. Apparently not.
sd72 Offline
#12 Posted:
Joined: 03-09-2011
Posts: 9,600
Whoa. That's ^ not an original essay?
pdxstogieman Offline
#13 Posted:
Joined: 10-04-2007
Posts: 5,219
daveincincy wrote:
They (the Arab world) thought Obama would have his Muslim brothers' backs. Whistle


If he had, there'd be the same suspects criticizing him for that.
wheelrite Offline
#14 Posted:
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
pdxstogieman wrote:
If he had, there'd be the same suspects criticizing him for that.


Obama is a train wreck..
rfenst Offline
#15 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,473
Here is what i think needs to occur:

Elite Marines, elite Army and elite Navy need to be placed in all the embassies and consulates where radical Islam is not properly controlled. Evacuation plans should be initiated. Helicopters for transport in and out should be guarded by strike helicopters and/or planes. European allies with radical Islam populations should immediately occupy a safety zone around all U.S. government buildings in their countries. Standing shoot and strike to kill orders when necessary in the field/zone. They have been taught to hate the U.S. for decades. I don't give a shyt how many casualties we inflict to get it done. Also, we should raise our security level here at home.
dubleuhb Offline
#16 Posted:
Joined: 03-20-2011
Posts: 11,350
rfenst wrote:
Here is what i think needs to occur:

Elite Marines, elite Army and elite Navy need to be placed in all the embassies and consulates where radical Islam is not properly controlled. Evacuation plans should be initiated. Helicopters for transport in and out should be guarded by strike helicopters and/or planes. European allies with radical Islam populations should immediately occupy a safety zone around all U.S. government buildings in their countries. Standing shoot and strike to kill orders when necessary in the field/zone. They have been taught to hate the U.S. for decades. I don't give a shyt how many casualties we inflict to get it done. Also, we should raise our security level here at home.

Good start, I believe we need to rethink who we send aid to also. Seems many of the countries we fund are now showing they can't be trusted as our government hoped they could.
teedubbya Offline
#17 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
We've always had that issue. The shah, bin laden etc. not to mention central and south America.
nitro6526 Offline
#18 Posted:
Joined: 09-13-2010
Posts: 1,022
Yep.
Mr president? This is the CIA. Yeah we have this guy on the inside see.... his name is bin laden and he can help us with the russians. All we gotta do is..... oh wait. He is using those tactics we taught them against us? He can't do that. We are supposed to be allies. That worked out well huh?
frankj1 Offline
#19 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,290
rfenst wrote:
Here is what i think needs to occur:

Elite Marines, elite Army and elite Navy need to be placed in all the embassies and consulates where radical Islam is not properly controlled. Evacuation plans should be initiated. Helicopters for transport in and out should be guarded by strike helicopters and/or planes. European allies with radical Islam populations should immediately occupy a safety zone around all U.S. government buildings in their countries. Standing shoot and strike to kill orders when necessary in the field/zone. They have been taught to hate the U.S. for decades. I don't give a shyt how many casualties we inflict to get it done. Also, we should raise our security level here at home.

sensible
frankj1 Offline
#20 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,290
dubleuhb wrote:
Good start, I believe we need to rethink who we send aid to also. Seems many of the countries we fund are now showing they can't be trusted as our government hoped they could.

and then there is Israel...
chemyst Offline
#21 Posted:
Joined: 05-29-2006
Posts: 1,674
Saw a homey in Cairo with a mic in his face say, "the USA
must learn to respect our religion."

My first thought... Sure, when homeys learn to respect other
religions.

These homeys are not very bright.
chemyst Offline
#22 Posted:
Joined: 05-29-2006
Posts: 1,674
deleted
dubleuhb Offline
#23 Posted:
Joined: 03-20-2011
Posts: 11,350
frankj1 wrote:
and then there is Israel...

Yes, the canary in the coal mine.
HockeyDad Offline
#24 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,213
pdxstogieman wrote:
Hmm....no source or attribution for this cut and paste. I've heard somewhere that, that is some kind of major deal on here. Apparently not.




So you weren't even capable of reading to the 5th paragraph where you would have found this:

"France24.com spoke with Khaled Elgindy"

Had you ready the questions and dialogue you would have noticed the "F24" repeating theme.




This level of uselessness is exactly why you and the occupoopers were never taken seriously.
HockeyDad Offline
#25 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,213
frankj1 wrote:
and then there is Israel...




Don't we have convicted Israeli spies in US prisons?
frankj1 Offline
#26 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,290
HockeyDad wrote:
Don't we have convicted Israeli spies in US prisons?

oh yeah. it's like out of control how they invade our system and try to topple our way of life.
Neuveau Jewish Conspiracy. Be afraid, be very afraid.

I'll hide out in an American Embassy in an Arab country for safety til this Israeli spy ring is brought down.
frankj1 Offline
#27 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,290
so I have been ruminating for the last few minutes, and have decided I don't feel like allowing/causing this to turn into an Israel hijacked thread. There's plenty of serious stuff going on in an amazing number of countries that are not named Israel and each of those countries should be the subjects of discourse for now. Clearly we have much more to worry about with those locations.

HockeyDad Offline
#28 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,213
You want serious...

Christianity is still emerging from multiple centuries of infighting and will ultimately reunite to its place as crusader to combat and extinguish Islam.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#29 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,633
No wait...my turn...watch...You all want serious?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaxZPiiKyMw


A New Beginning!!!!!
frankj1 Offline
#30 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,290
HockeyDad wrote:
You want serious...

Christianity is still emerging from multiple centuries of infighting and will ultimately reunite to its place as crusader to combat and extinguish Islam.

oh now, why'd ya go and spoil the ending? a lot of us were behind in our reading.
rfenst Offline
#31 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,473
HockeyDad wrote:
You want serious...

Christianity is still emerging from multiple centuries of infighting and will ultimately reunite to its place as crusader to combat and extinguish Islam.


before or after the radical Muslim factions resolve their major bifurcated rift?

(Need to get ready...)
rfenst Offline
#32 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,473
Thread title is off a bit. The problem is Islamic radicals, not Arabic radicals. The two are not necessarily the same.
pdxstogieman Offline
#33 Posted:
Joined: 10-04-2007
Posts: 5,219
HockeyDad wrote:
You want serious...

Christianity is still emerging from multiple centuries of infighting and will ultimately reunite to its place as crusader to combat and extinguish Islam.


One should be careful what one wishes for.

Your claim of attribution is weak.
pdxstogieman Offline
#34 Posted:
Joined: 10-04-2007
Posts: 5,219
rfenst wrote:
before or after the radical Muslim factions resolve their major bifurcated rift?

(Need to get ready...)


To complete the process of uniting Christianity, I'm sure many faux Christians, Apostates, Heretics and people that don't adhere stringently to the particular strain of Christianity that holds power at the time will have to be expunged from society to allow things to move forward for God's greater glory.

Religious zealots, no matter what faith they profess to profess, are the biggest evil on earth and the cause of most of it's misery. I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for this all to come to pass. The rapture has a higher likelihood of happening and I don't believe in that happy horsesh!t either.
rumraider Offline
#35 Posted:
Joined: 08-05-2012
Posts: 727
pdxstogieman wrote:
To complete the process of uniting Christianity, I'm sure many faux Christians, Apostates, Heretics and people that don't adhere stringently to the particular strain of Christianity that holds power at the time will have to be expunged from society to allow things to move forward for God's greater glory.

Religious zealots, no matter what faith they profess to profess, are the biggest evil on earth and the cause of most of it's misery. I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for this all to come to pass. The rapture has a higher likelihood of happening and I don't believe in that happy horsesh!t either.


Well said.
pdxstogieman Offline
#36 Posted:
Joined: 10-04-2007
Posts: 5,219
Ya don't have to be a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.
pdxstogieman Offline
#37 Posted:
Joined: 10-04-2007
Posts: 5,219
rfenst wrote:
Thread title is off a bit. The problem is Islamic radicals, not Arabic radicals. The two are not necessarily the same.


They're all brown people right? Quit parsing words esquire!
ZRX1200 Offline
#38 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,682
^ LMMFPWAO!
pdxstogieman Offline
#39 Posted:
Joined: 10-04-2007
Posts: 5,219
ZRX1200 wrote:
^ LMMFPWAO!


Don't forget to tip your waitress.
frankj1 Offline
#40 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,290
pdxstogieman wrote:
Don't forget to tip your waitress.

gee, I thought HD was being whimsical. I am so out of the loop.
HockeyDad Offline
#41 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,213
pdxstogieman wrote:
One should be careful what one wishes for.

Your claim of attribution is weak.




I didn't say I wished for it but based on the last 1500 years of Islamic history, it seems to be a likely scenario. I guess the other options are Islam takes over the world or Islam one day just decides to play nice with their neighbors.

I'm just going with the odds.
HockeyDad Offline
#42 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,213
pdxstogieman wrote:
To complete the process of uniting Christianity, I'm sure many faux Christians, Apostates, Heretics and people that don't adhere stringently to the particular strain of Christianity that holds power at the time will have to be expunged from society to allow things to move forward for God's greater glory.

Religious zealots, no matter what faith they profess to profess, are the biggest evil on earth and the cause of most of it's misery. I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for this all to come to pass. The rapture has a higher likelihood of happening and I don't believe in that happy horsesh!t either.




Sometime you got to break a few eggs....but in reality it will be more about stopping the Muslim horde that uniting to some purified Christianity. It will just be a matter of necessity.

The worst place to be is an atheist standing in between a Holy War.
pdxstogieman Offline
#43 Posted:
Joined: 10-04-2007
Posts: 5,219
HockeyDad wrote:
Sometime you got to break a few eggs....but in reality it will be more about stopping the Muslim horde that uniting to some purified Christianity. It will just be a matter of necessity.

The worst place to be is an atheist standing in between a Holy War.


While throughout history, it's been convenient to use the cloak of religion to energize the masses to become cannon fodder in a holy war, it's not necessary, and in fact it's become offputting to the majority of people in western civilization, regardless of whether they have some Christian religious affiliation. Yes, there are still some morons who basically are advocates of a Christian jihad, but you don't have to be religious to be concerned about and potentially spurred to action against an increasingly violent mass of muslim religious zealots. Being an atheist, or in my case, agnostic, will be no better or worse than lining up with one dogma or another this time around. If there is a this time around. I think your predictions are employing overly dramatic rhetoric. The best thing we can do is keep Mitt and the "12 Lost Tribes" religious right whackos and the Neocons that manipulate them, out of office in order to keep overly dramatic rhetoric from driving overly dramatic, kneejerk actions. Not that certain actions won't be required. It's just that they need to be tempered and appropriate to the circumstances instead of driven by the unholy alliance of Netanyahu and the Neocons/Military Industrial complex interests.
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