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Judge strikes down Wis. law limiting union rights
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rfenst Offline
#1 Posted: Sat, Sep 15 2012, 5:11 AM EST
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,531
(MADISON, Wis. (AP) — A Wisconsin judge has struck down nearly all of the state law championed by Gov. Scott Walker that effectively ended collective bargaining rights for most public workers.
...

The law, a crowning achievement for Walker that made him a national conservative star, took away nearly all collective bargaining rights from most workers and has been in effect for more than a year.

Dane County Circuit Judge Juan Colas ruled that the law violates both the state and U.S. Constitution and is null and void.

In his 27-page ruling, the judge said sections of the law "single out and encumber the rights of those employees who choose union membership and representation solely because of that association and therefore infringe upon the rights of free speech and association guaranteed by both the Wisconsin and United States Constitutions."

Colas also said the law violates the equal protection clause by creating separate classes of workers who are treated differently and unequally.

The ruling applies to all local public workers affected by the law, including teachers and city and county government employees, but not those who work for the state. They were not a party to the lawsuit, which was brought by a Madison teachers union and a Milwaukee public workers union.
...

Walker's law, passed in March 2011, only allowed for collective bargaining on wage increases no greater than the rate of inflation. All other issues, including workplace safety, vacation, health benefits, could no longer be bargained for.
...

The law required public workers to pay more for their health insurance and pension benefits at the same time it took away their ability to collectively bargain over those issues. Walker argued the changes were needed to help state and local governments save money at a time Wisconsin faced a $3 billion budget shortfall.
...

The lawsuit was among several filed against the law.

A coalition of unions filed a federal lawsuit in Madison in June 2011, arguing that the law violated the U.S. Constitution's equal protection clause because it exempted firefighters and police officers. A federal just upheld most of the law in March, but the rulings are under appeal.

Another lawsuit was filed in July 2011 by two unions representing about 2,700 public workers in Madison and Dane County. They also challenged the law on equal protection grounds. The case is pending.
....

The actual Order can be found at: http://www.thewheelerreport.com/releases/September12/0914/0914mtivwalker.pdf
pdxstogieman Offline
#2 Posted: Sat, Sep 15 2012, 6:13 PM EST
Joined: 10-04-2007
Posts: 5,219
Good to see some support for this in the judiciary even if it is at a lower level. Judging from the replies to your post, there's the expected huge groundswell of support for this from the progressive crowd. Buehler? Buehler? Anyone?
ZRX1200 Offline
#3 Posted: Sat, Sep 15 2012, 6:33 PM EST
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,703
Unions are so awesome.

So are the black robes.
frankj1 Offline
#4 Posted: Sat, Sep 15 2012, 6:45 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,296
going from (what's left of my) memory of what I read at the time...though very popular in some circles, Walker's statements and releases had mucho inflammatory and incorrect info that swayed public opinion greatly, intentionally creating an "us vs them" mentality...like that pensions for teachers were an unaffordable luxury burden on the taxpayers that "regular folks" in the private sector would never get.

In fact, they were self funded. Makes sense to me, as my wife's retirement from a lifetime in the public school system will be self funded as well. Huge waste of mouth frothing.

But the investments were bungled by those in Wisc. state office, reducing the pool substantially. Pretty sure taxpayers only paid for teachers that way out-lived "projected" life expectancy in any event. So not quite the budget busting back breaker Walker rode in on. And that's why it looked to many as though his intentions were to bust unions, not really to cure budget ills at all, but to cast blame where it did not belong to keep folks off the real cause, government mismanagement, which was the responsibility of him and those before him regardless of party affiliation.

If you insist on source, I ain't going back, but much of this came from Forbes and Forbes related blogging, not exactly a commie rag normally. It's possible I read bogus info from them, I don't really know how Forbes is regarded here, not a devotee anyway, but I buy it, and I paraphrased from recall. So don't kill the messenger, or kill the messenger, whatever.

Neither libs nor cons can always be right or always be wrong.
wheelrite Offline
#5 Posted: Sat, Sep 15 2012, 7:48 PM EST
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
The Federal Courts will uphold it,,,

Communism never prospers...
teedubbya Offline
#6 Posted: Sat, Sep 15 2012, 7:57 PM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
The Feds are going to start ruling on State cases now?
wheelrite Offline
#7 Posted: Sat, Sep 15 2012, 7:59 PM EST
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
teedubbya wrote:
The Feds are going to start ruling on State cases now?


when it is appealed...
teedubbya Offline
#8 Posted: Sat, Sep 15 2012, 8:45 PM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
Um ok.
rfenst Offline
#9 Posted: Sun, Sep 16 2012, 5:35 AM EST
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,531
teedubbya wrote:
The Feds are going to start ruling on State cases now?


Never mind that silliness.

These case will highly likely be bound together because their relevant facts and the underlying law(s) at question are so closely inter-twined. It is all pretty much just fundamental questions of law, which will "rocket" the case to the SCOTUS.

With so many different alleged grounds for constitutional challenge, this law likely won't stay intact. My prediction is that we will even see some of the most "conservative" members of the court arguing to strike it in part or whole by multiple differing Concurrences.

I think there is a real good chance our grand children and their progeny will be reading about this case in their history books like we read about the worker/employer rights cases of the industrial revolution and in the early 20th century.In a classical constitutional history-sense (not just a line of Opinions), this is a huge one..
rfenst Offline
#10 Posted: Sun, Sep 16 2012, 5:55 AM EST
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,531
wheelrite wrote:
The Federal Courts will uphold it,,,

Communism never prospers...


Devil's Advocate:

If there is any communism to be alleged here, doesn't it involve state government, the classic "state" in Economic and Political terms if you will, that has taken away access to property rights of certain classes of workers- in terms of "pay"?
Brewha Offline
#11 Posted: Sun, Sep 16 2012, 1:36 PM EST
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,229
Gov. Scott Walker seems like a real POS. Taking away the right of the people to bargain collectedly is true class warfare. Of course, the war has been going on for a long time.

But I’m sure he is backed by those that see demands for civil liberty as Communism.
ZRX1200 Offline
#12 Posted: Sun, Sep 16 2012, 1:43 PM EST
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,703
Colletive bargaining by one gov't beurocrocy by another gov't beurocracy isn't a civil liberty.

It's tax payers getting PHUKED.

What did FDR (that conservative) say about public employees and collective bargaining?

NOBODY IS BARGAINING FOR THE TAXPAYERS.
Brewha Offline
#13 Posted: Sun, Sep 16 2012, 1:55 PM EST
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,229
ZRX1200 wrote:

What did FDR (that conservative) say about public employees and collective bargaining?

- I don’t know what he said either.




But I say all workers should have the right to collective bargaining – Who employs them is immaterial. It is supposed to me one of our freedoms. You remember freedom – ya’know, before the Patriot Act?
ZRX1200 Offline
#14 Posted: Sun, Sep 16 2012, 2:20 PM EST
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,703
Bargain yes.

Point of a gun not so much.
ZRX1200 Offline
#15 Posted: Sun, Sep 16 2012, 2:23 PM EST
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,703
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2011/02/19/the_ghost_of_fdr_is_smiling_on_wisconsins_governor_108962.html
Brewha Offline
#16 Posted: Sun, Sep 16 2012, 3:44 PM EST
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,229
Is there really anyone that thinks public school teachers are being paid too much? As Americans, do we need laws to protect us from the shameless profiteering of the teachers union?

Where are the public workers who are pointing a gun at us and extorting unreasonably high wages?
Mrs.Tank Offline
#17 Posted: Sun, Sep 16 2012, 3:52 PM EST
Joined: 02-15-2005
Posts: 10,047
In Wisconsin, it wasn't about pay in my opinion. It was about benefits. Fully funded pensions, and 100% paid insurance. All this on the taxpayers dime, while the taxpayer has to pay into their own pensions, because no one else will, and absorb increases in health insurance costs.

Funniest thing about the insurance is the health plan teachers used? was run by the teacher's union. Seems a bit fishy to me.
ZRX1200 Offline
#18 Posted: Sun, Sep 16 2012, 3:58 PM EST
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,703
^ yup.

Brewha. Pay AND BENEFITS are a total cost.


Add that together.


Now as their cost has RISIN and the quality of education has diminished coupled with those awesome selfless teachers trying to LIMIT parent choice. Yes. I do think they're overpayed.

Here in Oregon the average teacher cost per year FAR AND AWAY blows away the average salary of private sector folks. And their retirement is garunteed 8% growth! And lifetime health bennies.
dubleuhb Offline
#19 Posted: Sun, Sep 16 2012, 4:55 PM EST
Joined: 03-20-2011
Posts: 11,350
Brewha wrote:
Is there really anyone that thinks public school teachers are being paid too much? As Americans, do we need laws to protect us from the shameless profiteering of the teachers union?

Where are the public workers who are pointing a gun at us and extorting unreasonably high wages?

Absolutely ! Here in NY their pensions managed by the unions are guaranteed, meaning when they lose value tax dollars are used to make up the difference so they never lose a dime. Quite a deal ! Boob jobs, lipo all the vanity crap is still included in their healthcare plan, they refuse to take a cut. Must be they have to look good for the children.

They demand smaller class sizes year after year which only means more teachers and more union power. In a sense anytime cuts are proposed they (the teachers unions) are holding a knife to the throat of the taxpayer and the politicians allow them to slice a bit deeper.
Mrs.Tank Offline
#20 Posted: Sun, Sep 16 2012, 4:57 PM EST
Joined: 02-15-2005
Posts: 10,047
there are school districts in Wisconsin where if teachers who are retired work 3 (three) days, they are paid for an entire year.
Brewha Offline
#21 Posted: Sun, Sep 16 2012, 6:07 PM EST
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,229
Well I guess we can all be grateful that we finally have healthcare reform underway.
Think


So we do need laws to protect us from these vile teachers screwing over the tax payers – wow. I am surprised at the vilification of the educators. I never thought of them as getting ‘rich’ off of us. And I gather that you all don’t think there compensation is fair market value.

Any chance we could admire their financial success in the education business? No, they are unfair and shameless.

They should follow the example of Halliburton – they would never screw the tax payer.
JKilburn Offline
#22 Posted: Sun, Sep 16 2012, 6:22 PM EST
Joined: 10-19-2011
Posts: 1,461
Gonna tell my wife we need to move to these states that overpay teachers unlike here in Indiana. Each year we have to lower our insurance so we can afford it. We're on the lowest one now and with her being paid bi-weekly, insurance plus dental/vision is almost half her paycheck. Yes, I am still grateful that she has a job though.
frankj1 Offline
#23 Posted: Sun, Sep 16 2012, 6:28 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,296
Brewha wrote:
Well I guess we can all be grateful that we finally have healthcare reform underway.
Think


So we do need laws to protect us from these vile teachers screwing over the tax payers – wow. I am surprised at the vilification of the educators. I never thought of them as getting ‘rich’ off of us. And I gather that you all don’t think there compensation is fair market value.

Any chance we could admire their financial success in the education business? No, they are unfair and shameless.

They should follow the example of Halliburton – they would never screw the tax payer.

Walker was simply trying to cut pay, the rest is, well, um, debatable...

http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickungar/2011/02/25/the-wisconsin-lie-exposed-taxpayers-actually-contribute-nothing-to-public-employee-pensions/

I have no connection to Wisc and but this link was sent to me by a private school employee friend from PA during the Wisc stuff and that's what I referenced earlier in this thread. If true (again, I am not involved but I detest pig piles based on intentional inflammatory info by any side) then even folks here from Wisc have been hoodwinked by their Governor.
Mrs.Tank Offline
#24 Posted: Sun, Sep 16 2012, 6:30 PM EST
Joined: 02-15-2005
Posts: 10,047
I've endured paycuts, and a suspension of any 401k contributions by my employer - just to keep my job. Our company actually had to stop offering insurance because the rates have gone up so much. Yet these unions think that raising our taxes to pay for their 100% funded pension plans and their premium health care is the only option. If the teachers had selected a different insurance program, they would have saved $$$. But that is the union run insurance they have, so I guess that was not an option.
frankj1 Offline
#25 Posted: Sun, Sep 16 2012, 6:52 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,296
Mrs.Tank wrote:
I've endured paycuts, and a suspension of any 401k contributions by my employer - just to keep my job. Our company actually had to stop offering insurance because the rates have gone up so much. Yet these unions think that raising our taxes to pay for their 100% funded pension plans and their premium health care is the only option. If the teachers had selected a different insurance program, they would have saved $$$. But that is the union run insurance they have, so I guess that was not an option.


I just reread the link I provided. You seem to have been given incorrect info about their benefits. Union members used deferred portions of their existing pay to fund all of it. You have not been paying for it with your tax money.* The cause of shortfalls lies with your elected officials, not the workers, who did not properly follow guidlines set up by their own actuaries.

I too have had paycuts (one a whopping 8% four years ago) and loss of matching 401K contributions from my boss, but I try not to allow my anger to be manipulated by lying politicians no matter their goals. Hating scapegoats is a dangerous game.

* though tax money pays the salaries of all State employees, including the Gov.
Brewha Offline
#26 Posted: Sun, Sep 16 2012, 7:08 PM EST
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,229
We don’t have unions in my line of work – but we do get the pay cut, 401k, insurance reduction screwing too. And our execs got the most delightful bonuses.

The sort of misinformation and hate mongering I see is a genuinely effective tool – divide and conquer. WE should all gang up on the evil teachers – they are misanthropes (that means bad people for those who did not have a teacher).

Sound like some of us might be better off in a union (Mrs.T)?

Ever think that the real villain here might not be the slave next to you that didn’t get their rations cut?
Mathen Offline
#27 Posted: Sun, Sep 16 2012, 7:16 PM EST
Joined: 05-27-2011
Posts: 2,338
I have worked in the field of education, both primary and secondary. Support staff, not a teacher. My mother has been a teacher, and I have an aunt and a cousin who are both currently teachers. So I have a little bit of knowledge of "the system".

Truth: the wage for a starting teacher is terrible
Truth: there are, in fact, some great teachers out there. People who earnestly endeavor to teach and enrich the lives of children.

Here's some other truths: around here, teachers are under contract to work 185 days a year. There are 365 days on the calendar that means they work almost exactly one day out of every two. That's a part time job.

Teachers get a mandated student-free "planning period" every day. Do you get an hour a day, every day, that doesn't involve your primary job duty? I don't.

When I worked for the local school district-- and I know this is not the same everywhere-- it made 8% contributions into the retirement system. It also paid 100% of health insurance costs on the emoloyee. That did change while I was working there and they were asked to pay something like $18 dollars a month. There was an uproar like you wouldn't believe. Also, if you were insuring your family, you had to contribute as well. I say this to be fair, because some people (myself included) did contribute but at a pretty favorable rate. Retirement (which you can start collecting at 55 until you die) and the employee insurance was paid for by the tax payer.

There were guaranteed raises every year based on nothing but how long you have been there. I personally know a middle school gym teacher that makes $90k a year. Yes, she's been teaching there since 1973 but think about that: $90k a year for a part time job that involves blowing a whistle and throwing a ball out except for the six weeks a year you are required to teach health. Plus she gets extra money for coaching sports teams. Do you think she's home at night grading papers on her own time? Buying school supplies out of pocket? Nope!

Observation and opinion: many *many* (though by no means all) of the teachers I had direct contact with we're lazy, marginally competent at best, and didn't give a hoot about the kids. They were all constantly lobbying to get more for themselves for less effort. Want to see an elementary teacher have a melt down? Tell her due to lack of staff that Agee needs to watch kids get on te bus in the afternoon before she goes home. I watched an absolute temper tantrum happen over that. Her exact words: "I won't get home until four o'clock if I have to do that!". Class starts at eight thirty five so it wasn't like she had been there since five am.

I could go on and on about the entitlement, aggregious and outrageous behavior I have personally seen, but I know that it's not going to change anybody's minds. I will say this: I have a whole hell of a lot less respect for "educators" after having spent a few years around them.
ZRX1200 Offline
#28 Posted: Sun, Sep 16 2012, 7:16 PM EST
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,703
A little melodramatic today I see.

I don't think you're taking the opposing opinions (that's the people who don't agree with you) in the right light. This is typical for the pro union argument with public employees, how can you dislike a teacher or policeman or firefighter? The problem is the unions and the way the bargaining is done.
drywalldog Offline
#29 Posted: Sun, Sep 16 2012, 7:47 PM EST
Joined: 06-19-2007
Posts: 5,536
Republicans were trying to put the knife thro the heart of unions. This had nothing to do with bad contracts. The unions were willing to negotiate over the pensions and raises. Walker, wouldnt. Be interesting to see if this comes back to bite him.
ZRX1200 Offline
#30 Posted: Sun, Sep 16 2012, 7:51 PM EST
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,703
"Negotiate" means do enough to not loose public support then strike when cuts actually start happening. And strike during the school year not the summer because IT'S ALL ABOUT THE KIDS!!!!

complete bullscheet.
Brewha Offline
#31 Posted: Sun, Sep 16 2012, 8:05 PM EST
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,229
ZRX1200 wrote:
A little melodramatic today I see.

I don't think you're taking the opposing opinions (that's the people who don't agree with you) in the right light. This is typical for the pro union argument with public employees, how can you dislike a teacher or policeman or firefighter? The problem is the unions and the way the bargaining is done.

Curses – you have seen though thinly veiled plan . . . . .




Spot on as always.
Agreed it is a bargaining issue. My ax to grind is with laws that take away one’s right to bargain. Laws like this seem to chip away at our freedom. And the chips never seem to get put back (?).

And just to clear my already questionable name – I was not the first cast member in the melodrama.
ZRX1200 Offline
#32 Posted: Sun, Sep 16 2012, 8:17 PM EST
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,703
I know. And I hope you know you annoy me at times but I'd smoke with ya anytime and buy
you a beer.

You're fun to chew the cud with.
Mrs.Tank Offline
#33 Posted: Sun, Sep 16 2012, 9:02 PM EST
Joined: 02-15-2005
Posts: 10,047
I am not anti union. I only hope that reasonable considerations considering today's economy can be made. Instead of switching to a cheaper insurance, the union chose instead to have teachers laid off. Sounds like the union is working for their members - ALL of their members.
rfenst Offline
#34 Posted: Sun, Sep 16 2012, 9:03 PM EST
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,531
Both sides take risks. The employer risks the strike lasting so long that even if it were to accede to the employee demands, it becomes a losing proposition. The employees risk losing their jobs like the air traffic controllers did years ago.
JKilburn Offline
#35 Posted: Sun, Sep 16 2012, 10:37 PM EST
Joined: 10-19-2011
Posts: 1,461
Mathen wrote:
I have worked in the field of education, both primary and secondary. Support staff, not a teacher. My mother has been a teacher, and I have an aunt and a cousin who are both currently teachers. So I have a little bit of knowledge of "the system".

Truth: the wage for a starting teacher is terrible
Truth: there are, in fact, some great teachers out there. People who earnestly endeavor to teach and enrich the lives of children.

Here's some other truths: around here, teachers are under contract to work 185 days a year. There are 365 days on the calendar that means they work almost exactly one day out of every two. That's a part time job.

Teachers get a mandated student-free "planning period" every day. Do you get an hour a day, every day, that doesn't involve your primary job duty? I don't. When I worked for the local school district-- and I know this is not the same everywhere-- it made 8% contributions into the retirement system. It also paid 100% of health insurance costs on the emoloyee. That did change while I was working there and they were asked to pay something like $18 dollars a month. There was an uproar like you wouldn't believe. Also, if you were insuring your family, you had to contribute as well. I say this to be fair, because some people (myself included) did contribute but at a pretty favorable rate. Retirement (which you can start collecting at 55 until you die) and the employee insurance was paid for by the tax payer.

There were guaranteed raises every year based on nothing but how long you have been there. I personally know a middle school gym teacher that makes $90k a year. Yes, she's been teaching there since 1973 but think about that: $90k a year for a part time job that involves blowing a whistle and throwing a ball out except for the six weeks a year you are required to teach health. Plus she gets extra money for coaching sports teams. Do you think she's home at night grading papers on her own time? Buying school supplies out of pocket? Nope!

Observation and opinion: many *many* (though by no means all) of the teachers I had direct contact with we're lazy, marginally competent at best, and didn't give a hoot about the kids. They were all constantly lobbying to get more for themselves for less effort. Want to see an elementary teacher have a melt down? Tell her due to lack of staff that Agee needs to watch kids get on te bus in the afternoon before she goes home. I watched an absolute temper tantrum happen over that. Her exact words: "I won't get home until four o'clock if I have to do that!". Class starts at eight thirty five so it wasn't like she had been there since five am.

I could go on and on about the entitlement, aggregious and outrageous behavior I have personally seen, but I know that it's not going to change anybody's minds. I will say this: I have a whole hell of a lot less respect for "educators" after having spent a few years around them.


That's the part that always get's me. I have never met a teacher that only puts in their 185 days. I know you're just telling what you have seen and are not attacking. My wife and most of my friends teach. They must be a rarity in this profession. 1 hour time off spent with students or doesn't exist, teaching summer school, always prepping for the next year, paying for continuing education(which is required unlike most professions), and paying for school supplies out of pocket. 5 day work week is a myth. Most spend Sunday at school getting ready for the upcoming week. All said and done they work just as hard and long as any other job. I realize this was a thread about unions, sorry for getting off topic.
rfenst Offline
#36 Posted: Mon, Sep 17 2012, 12:25 AM EST
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,531
Why is there criticism of self-insured union health insurance. when employer self-insured health insurance very common
pdxstogieman Offline
#37 Posted: Mon, Sep 17 2012, 12:32 AM EST
Joined: 10-04-2007
Posts: 5,219
rfenst wrote:
Why is there criticism of self-insured union health insurance. when employer self-insured health insurance very common


Because many people here believe the very concept of a union is evil, therefore facts and logic don't apply.
dubleuhb Offline
#38 Posted: Mon, Sep 17 2012, 1:35 AM EST
Joined: 03-20-2011
Posts: 11,350
rfenst wrote:
Why is there criticism of self-insured union health insurance. when employer self-insured health insurance very common

When it comes to public sector unions they are not self insured. They manage the insurance paid for by the taxpayer and refuse to do what jane and joe public have had to endure, ei; pay more out of pocket and be a bit more frugal with the peoples money. It's not their money so why care, just give me more attitude that has people annoyed.
dubleuhb Offline
#39 Posted: Mon, Sep 17 2012, 1:43 AM EST
Joined: 03-20-2011
Posts: 11,350
pdxstogieman wrote:
Because many people here believe the very concept of a union is evil, therefore facts and logic don't apply.

I work in a union shop and I am the only one who refuses to pay dues, my choice and not an easy thing to endure at times. Private sector but the union acts as though they pay me and the only reason there is a company is them. I have a good laugh every time pointing out the fact they don't sign my check and work for xxxxxxx, needless to say a few of the koolaide drinkers dislike me. Beer
Mathen Offline
#40 Posted: Mon, Sep 17 2012, 4:14 AM EST
Joined: 05-27-2011
Posts: 2,338
JKilburn wrote:
That's the part that always get's me. I have never met a teacher that only puts in their 185 days. I know you're just telling what you have seen and are not attacking. My wife and most of my friends teach. They must be a rarity in this profession. 1 hour time off spent with students or doesn't exist, teaching summer school, always prepping for the next year, paying for continuing education(which is required unlike most professions), and paying for school supplies out of pocket. 5 day work week is a myth. Most spend Sunday at school getting ready for the upcoming week. All said and done they work just as hard and long as any other job. I realize this was a thread about unions, sorry for getting off topic.


Checked my time system at work for 2011. It's a shame I can't cut and paste all the formatting into this forum. I'll hit the big highlight:

Billed Hours Metrics FYTD as of 12/31/2011
Avg Work Week: 62.34

That's what I actually bother to put in my time card. 311 total days where I booked time. Most of the time I didn't actually put in the hour to three hours I work every single Sunday, though some days I did. I also closed the year maxed out on vacation days so I just stopped earning them. Didn't get them paid out or anything, just stopped accumulating new ones. My wife has forced me to take a few days off this year (6 total, 2 days at a time) so I won't be maxed out again until next month. All told though I've lost about 15 days vacation that I'll never get or get paid for with this employer.

This morning, I got up at two a.m. to work on some stuff that's due today so I wouldn't spend the entire weekend working and ignoring my family. That's why this post will hit a little after five a.m. when I hit submit. I've already been up for three hours and I'll get home at about 7:30 tonight. Maybe eight.

So, I've never met a teacher that works an average of 60 hours a week 52 weeks a year. Have you? I'm actually down too. In 2006 I billed as many as 117 hours some weeks. Never once less than 70.

I'm honestly not trying to attack anyone, and there are things about teaching that I have observed that absolutely suck. Pay for one, terrible parents, a*hole kids, and you know what? I can go pee anytime I want. You can't do that in the class room. I get it.

But I don't buy the whole "woe is me" story that the teacher's union wants you believe. I've spent plenty of Sunday's in schools when I worked there. Why? Because I ran the network and you spend all the instructional time playing help desk and have to do real work (installs, upgrades, etc.) when kids weren't in class. I have never seen a school over run with teachers on a Sunday. Never. Not once. A couple here and there? Sure.

I have had principals really really pissed off because they needed to unlock the door on an empty school to let me in or come back to lock up when I leave. The school district I worked for required teachers to work 3 days after school let out for the summer and 10 days before it opened back up. Otherwise all you had there was the principal and the secretary all summer long.

I could go on and on. And I could even do it with examples of wonderful teachers that I saw go out of their way to do something special for a kid. Unfortunately, there are far fewer examples of that then there are of me watching bitter, whiny, do-nothings be bitter and whiny while they did nothing.

I say in all seriousness and without any intention of being dramatic, it would take threat of jail or starvation for my family for me to take another job in a school district. When I left there the reason for leaving I put on my exit interview was "The culture of mediocrity that I can no longer endure."

True story.


Edit: Let me come back and say (because I know I sound like a ranting lunatic) that I think it's the system that is broken, not the individuals who are part of it. I think the union(s) exploit a lot of public sympathy with some pretty tenuous claims of hardship for teachers. And I have also seen the classroom burn a lot of people out. So what do you end up with? Good teachers who teach because they love it and are forced to work in a system that sucks, and terrible teachers who buy into the union message of suffering and endeavor to constantly ask the tax payer to fund more with the basic justification being "But I'm a TEACHER! I deserve it!" There's not a lot of middle ground that I've observed.
JKilburn Offline
#41 Posted: Mon, Sep 17 2012, 9:08 AM EST
Joined: 10-19-2011
Posts: 1,461
^ I honestly think we agree more on this stuff than disagree. I agree with you that teacher entitlements are wrong and that the system is broken but I will defend my wife and friends for they are one of the good ones that spend more time with other peoples kids than these kids parents. I'm not gonna get into an hour per week rumble for you put in alot of hours and deserve to reap the rewards just like certain teachers don't deserve the bs that gets thrown at them. The teachers union isn't perfect that's for sure. I've gotten in arguments with them over ridiculous things pro and con teacher. I realize you know they're are good teachers out in the world too, just like most professions one bad apple can ruin it for everyone.
Papachristou Offline
#42 Posted: Mon, Sep 17 2012, 11:53 AM EST
Joined: 10-20-2010
Posts: 845
it doesnt matter since wisconsin is broke (as we all are) and when those teachers go to retire, there just wont be any money.
HockeyDad Offline
#43 Posted: Mon, Sep 17 2012, 12:04 PM EST
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,247
So are the unions now going to shut down Wisconsin or will there be massive tax increases and will this affect cheese?
DrafterX Offline
#44 Posted: Mon, Sep 17 2012, 12:32 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,628
OhMyGod
Brewha Offline
#45 Posted: Mon, Sep 17 2012, 12:50 PM EST
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,229
Wait – is union cheese and guvmut cheese the same? I mean, I’m sure they both go good with whine . . . . .
DrMaddVibe Offline
#46 Posted: Mon, Sep 17 2012, 1:12 PM EST
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,681
HockeyDad wrote:
So are the unions now going to shut down Wisconsin or will there be massive tax increases and will this affect cheese?



They're going on a beer run to Illinois!!!!horse
DrafterX Offline
#47 Posted: Mon, Sep 17 2012, 1:16 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,628
DrMaddVibe wrote:
They're going on a beer run to Illinois!!!!horse



I've had to do that while visiting Indiana more than once.... Mellow
HockeyDad Offline
#48 Posted: Mon, Sep 17 2012, 1:19 PM EST
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,247
Union cheese is covered in mold.
rfenst Offline
#49 Posted: Mon, Sep 17 2012, 6:50 PM EST
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,531
dubleuhb wrote:
When it comes to public sector unions they are not self insured. They manage the insurance paid for by the taxpayer and refuse to do what jane and joe public have had to endure, ei; pay more out of pocket and be a bit more frugal with the peoples money. It's not their money so why care, just give me more attitude that has people annoyed.


If they go out into the marketplace and buy coverage for their members, they are not self-insured. If they retain the premiums each month and pool, then pay claims out of it they are "self-insured. Most people get confused about this because most self-insured entities hire well known insurers just to administrate the self insured plans. ERISA, baby! ERISA
pdxstogieman Offline
#50 Posted: Mon, Sep 17 2012, 7:31 PM EST
Joined: 10-04-2007
Posts: 5,219
HockeyDad wrote:
Union cheese is covered in mold.


It's Roquefort.
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