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Austerity: When The Credit Card is Maxed Out
HockeyDad Offline
#1 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,208
(Reuters) - Police and protesters clashed in Spain on Wednesday as millions of workers went on strike across Europe to protest spending cuts they say have made the economic crisis worse.

Hundreds of flights were cancelled, car factories and ports were at a standstill and trains barely ran in Spain and Portugal where unions held their first ever coordinated general strike.

Riot police arrested at least two protesters in Madrid and hit others with batons, witnesses said, and in Rome students pelted police with rocks in a protest over money-saving plans for the school system.

International rail services were disrupted by strikes in Belgium and workers in Greece, Italy and France planned work stoppages or demonstrations as part of a "European Day of Action and Solidarity".

"We're on strike to stop these suicidal policies," said Candido Mendez, head of Spain's second-biggest labor federation, the General Workers' Union, or UGT.

More than 60 people were arrested in Spain and 34 injured, 18 of them security officials after scuffles at picket lines and damage to storefronts.

Protesters jammed cash machines with glue and coins and plastered anti-government stickers on shop windows. Power consumption dropped 16 percent with factories idled.

International lenders and some economists say the programs of tax hikes and spending cuts are necessary for putting public finances back on a healthy track after years of overspending.

While several southern European countries have seen bursts of violence, a coordinated and effective regional protest to the austerity has yet to gain traction and governments have so far largely stuck to their policies.

Spain, where the crisis has pushed millions into poverty, has seen some of the biggest protests. Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy is trying to put off asking for European aid that could require even more budget cuts.

Passion was inflamed when a Spanish woman jumped to her death last week as bailiffs tried to evict her from her home. Spaniards are furious at banks being rescued with public cash while ordinary people suffer.

In Portugal, which accepted an EU bailout last year, the streets have been quieter but public and political opposition to austerity is mounting, threatening to derail new measures sought by Prime Minister Pedro Passos Coelho.

His centre-right government was forced by protests to abandon a planned increase in employee payroll charges, but replaced it by higher taxes.

Passos Coelho's policies were held up this week as a model by German Chancellor Angela Merkel, who is despised in much of southern Europe for insisting on austerity as a condition of her support for EU aid.

"I'm on strike because those who work are basically being blackmailed into sacrificing more and more in the name of debt reduction, which is a big lie," said Daniel Santos de Jesus, 43, who teaches architecture at the Lisbon Technical University.

Some 5 million people, or 22 percent of the workforce, are union members in Spain. In Portugal about a quarter of the 5.5 million strong workforce is unionized.

Major demonstrations were planned for the evening in Madrid, Lisbon, Barcelona and other cities.
rfenst Offline
#2 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,459
Pretend you are standing on a 25 foot wall in the fog and have two choices to get down to ground level to avoid being hit by lethal gunfire:

1. Jump and land on your feet- which you know will at least break both legs, but will ensure you getting to the ground quickly and away from the gunfire; but which you know will result in you never walking the same way again with the grace, speed, gait and stride you have for the last 10-20+ years of your life; or

2. Walk down a long, long ramp that stretches from the top of the wall where you are standing to a place on the ground that might or might not be exactly where you would land if you simply jumped; and since the ramp is so long and curvaceous and the fog so thick that you don't know what hazards it may pose and whether it will actually end up on the ground where you need to be to avoid being hit by lethal gunfire.

Which of these two extremes do you choose to take? What combinations of the two might be available? What other options are there that you may not be fully aware of?

No single right answer that all will agree with as being the best...














(P.S. You have a misspelled word in the subject line.)
DrMaddVibe Offline
#3 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,610
Americans are too lazy to riot.

They'll send in the Mexicans to do it for them!horse
Stinkdyr Offline
#4 Posted:
Joined: 06-16-2009
Posts: 9,948
I nominate Pepe to riot for me.

I will sit outside and drink beer and smoke cigars.
I know that our enlightened gubment will do what is best for me and all of us in this best of all possible worlds!

Yours,
Candide


Beer Herfing
Brewha Offline
#5 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,202
The real owners of Spain are conducting a money grab – property too.


Pretend you are smoking a really good cigar on a mountain top with a scenic view of the surrounding lands, their flowing beauty lavishly playing off into the distance, while a scantily clad wood nymph pours you a beer as she takes off her . . . .

Wait, I lost my train of thought.
rfenst Offline
#6 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,459
Brewha wrote:
The real owners of Spain are conducting a money grab – property too.


Pretend you are smoking a really good cigar on a mountain top with a scenic view of the surrounding lands, their flowing beauty lavishly playing off into the distance, while a scantily clad wood nymph pours you a beer as she takes off her . . . .

Wait, I lost my train of thought.


I knew it would be too simple for a "C-Bid LIBERAL" like you (and myself).
Brewha Offline
#7 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,202
rfenst wrote:
I knew it would be too simple for a "C-Bid LIBERAL" like you (and myself).

It was a playful an obvious over simplification, granted. But I don’t think it is the Cbid Liberals that normally have problems with over simplifying matters. In fact, some of the postings I read from the Cbid right are simple beyond all reckoning.

I do see this as a wealth grab by the owning class. Perhaps more opportunistic, perhaps fully contrived. But then I am so simple as to believe that the Fed orchestrated much of the great depression in our own country.
HockeyDad Offline
#8 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,208
rfenst wrote:
Which of these two extremes do you choose to take? What combinations of the two might be available? What other options are there that you may not be fully aware of?

No single right answer that all will agree with as being the best...




The beauty of waiting until austerity hits is that you don't get to chose. The lenders choose for you or refuse to lend any more money.
HockeyDad Offline
#9 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,208
Brewha wrote:
I do see this as a wealth grab by the owning class. Perhaps more opportunistic, perhaps fully contrived. But then I am so simple as to believe that the Fed orchestrated much of the great depression in our own country.



This is all about debt and the need for more debt to survive. This is just what happens when the lenders decide they are not going to lend any more money. The world loved to live on debt but now hate the foreclosure process.
Brewha Offline
#10 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,202
HockeyDad wrote:
This is all about debt and the need for more debt to survive. This is just what happens when the lenders decide they are not going to lend any more money. The world loved to live on debt but now hate the foreclosure process.

Well, everyone does play by the same rules . . . . .
HockeyDad Offline
#11 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,208
Borrowing rules are pretty simple.....you're supposed to pay it back. (except the US government for now at least.)
drywalldog Offline
#12 Posted:
Joined: 06-19-2007
Posts: 5,536
Why should they hate it, they got bailed out, and got to keep and sell the homes, and to write off the losses?
HockeyDad Offline
#13 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,208
Who said "they" hated it? By the way, who is "they"?!
DrMaddVibe Offline
#14 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,610
HockeyDad wrote:
Who said "they" hated it? By the way, who is "they"?!



SCOREBOARD BITCHES!
Stinkdyr Offline
#15 Posted:
Joined: 06-16-2009
Posts: 9,948
Pinochet could save Spain from itself.

Beer
rfenst Offline
#16 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,459
Brewha wrote:
It was a playful an obvious over simplification, granted. But I don’t think it is the Cbid Liberals that normally have problems with over simplifying matters. In fact, some of the postings I read from the Cbid right are simple beyond all reckoning.

I do see this as a wealth grab by the owning class. Perhaps more opportunistic, perhaps fully contrived. But then I am so simple as to believe that the Fed orchestrated much of the great depression in our own country.


Just trying to frame the conversation as to two general options on different sides of a spectrum, but the thread didn't go that way. You will have to pardon the little economist in me. LOL.
HockeyDad Offline
#17 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,208
rfenst wrote:
Just trying to frame the conversation as to two general options on different sides of a spectrum, but the thread didn't go that way. You will have to pardon the little economist in me. LOL.



The conversation has already been framed by the lenders as a result of the poor habits of the borrowers.

National bankruptcy or austerity mandated by lenders are the options.
rfenst Offline
#18 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,459
HockeyDad wrote:
The conversation has already been framed by the lenders as a result of the poor habits of the borrowers.

National bankruptcy or austerity mandated by lenders are the options.


Of course.
I just thought the conversation parallels the extremes of choices we Americans have at this point or might have in the future, and that the conversation would go there.
HockeyDad Offline
#19 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,208
rfenst wrote:
Of course.
I just thought the conversation parallels the extremes of choices we Americans have at this point or might have in the future, and that the conversation would go there.



It has nothing to do with any sort of choices Americans have. We still have creditors and we have "hope". Sucks to be somewhere that doesn't!

DadZilla3 Offline
#20 Posted:
Joined: 01-17-2009
Posts: 4,633
rfenst wrote:
No single right answer that all will agree with as being the best...


I say rescue the Kobayashi Maru crew, and to hell with the Klingon Neutral Zone and the Organian Peace Treaty.
rfenst Offline
#21 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,459
HockeyDad wrote:
It has nothing to do with any sort of choices Americans have. We still have creditors and we have "hope". Sucks to be somewhere that doesn't!



Sure it does. We have it real good for now. My analogies were applicable to both, except that Spain no longer has options and we do.

Anyhow, I just started to Spain's problem on a national level and found this from the BBC:

What went wrong with Spain?

"Spain's story illustrates the fact that the eurozone's problems run far deeper than the issue of excessive borrowing by ill-disciplined governments.

Greece, Portugal and Italy all had way too much debt.

But the Spanish government's borrowing was under control - that is, it ran a balanced budget on average every year until the eve of the 2008 financial crisis.

And as Spain's economy grew rapidly before 2008, its debt-to-GDP ratio was falling. Germany's, by contrast, continued to rise.

After Spain joined the euro, the country experienced a long boom, underpinned by a housing bubble, financed by cheap loans to builders and home buyers.

House prices rose 44% from 2004 to 2008, at the tail end of a housing boom. Since the bubble burst they have fallen by a third.

The economy, which grew 3.7% per year on average from 1999 to 2007, has shrunk at an annual rate of 1% since then.

So, although the Spanish government still had relatively low debts, it has had to borrow heavily to deal with the effects of the property collapse, the recession and the worst unemployment rate in the eurozone."


I haven't looked too much into the regional issues that are plaguing Spain, but they definitely seem to spring from regional overspending and excess borrowing...
Brewha Offline
#22 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,202
DadZilla3 wrote:
I say rescue the Kobayashi Maru crew, and to hell with the Klingon Neutral Zone and the Organian Peace Treaty.

Butt what of the Klingons circling Uranus?
wheelrite Offline
#23 Posted:
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
Brewha wrote:
Butt what of the Klingons circling Uranus?


I wanna bang the green Broad,,,
Brewha Offline
#24 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,202
wheelrite wrote:
I wanna bang the green Broad,,,

Cello on!
wheelrite Offline
#25 Posted:
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
Brewha wrote:
Cello on!


why ?

Brewha Offline
#26 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,202
For that kind of hazardous duty, a soldier needs a helmet.
wheelrite Offline
#27 Posted:
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
Brewha wrote:
For that kind of hazardous duty, a soldier needs a helmet.


I'm a mercanary..
I go in guns a blazing,,,
Brewha Offline
#28 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,202
The “inseminator” ?
Brewha Offline
#29 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,202
Hold out for "Babe of Nine".
DadZilla3 Offline
#30 Posted:
Joined: 01-17-2009
Posts: 4,633
Brewha wrote:
Hold out for "Babe of Nine".

...wonder if she could be reprogrammed as the Babe of Sixty-Nine? Think
HockeyDad Offline
#31 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,208
MADRID/LISBON (Reuters) - Demonstrations turned violent in Spain and Portugal after millions took part in a mostly peaceful general strike on Wednesday in organized labor's biggest Europe-wide challenge to austerity policies since the debt crisis began three years ago.

In Lisbon, marches ended with a level of violence not seen since the crisis began, with police charging demonstrators who hurled stones and bottles, leaving nearly 50 people hurt.

Protesters in Madrid burned rubbish bins, filling the central boulevard with smoke, while in Barcelona demonstrators burned police cars.

Riot police fired rubber bullets to disperse protesters in both cities, where more than 140 people were arrested, including two said by police to be carrying material to make explosives, while more than 70 were reported injured.

Hundreds of flights were cancelled, schools were shut, factories were at a standstill and trains barely ran in Spain and Portugal where unions held their first joint general strike. Stoppages in Belgium interrupted international rail services.

Workers also protested in Greece and France against austerity policies that have taken a heavy economic toll and aggravated mass unemployment.

But the demonstrations organized by the European Trade Union Confederation seemed unlikely to force hard-pressed governments to change their cost-cutting strategies.

"In austerity, there is only depression and unemployment," Fernando Toxo, head of Spain's biggest union, Comisiones Obreras, told a packed Columbus Plaza in central Madrid.

Even non-union workers jointed protests and marches.

"This isn't about politics or unions. This is social and economic. If we have to shut down the country we'll shut it down," said 24-year-old Mariluz Gordillo, a non-unionized phone operator at El Corte Ingles department store in Madrid.

In Rome, scuffles broke out between police in riot gear and demonstrators who threw stones, bottles and fireworks. About 60 demonstrators were detained. Protesters occupied Pisa's mediaeval Leaning Tower for an hour, hanging a banner reading "Rise up. We are not paying for your crisis".

DEEPENING RECESSION

In Portugal and Greece - both rescued with European funds and under strict austerity programs - the economic downturn sharpened in the third quarter, according to figures released on Wednesday.

Portuguese unemployment jumped to a record 15.8 percent while in Spain, one in four of the workforce is jobless.

Greece's economic output shrank 7.2 percent on an annual basis in the third quarter as the debt-laden country staggers towards its sixth year of depression.

Close to 26 million people are unemployed in the European Union while governments cut spending.

"Things have to change... Money has ended up with all the power and people none. How could this happen?" said Esteban Quesada, 58, a hardware store owner in Barcelona.

Throughout southern Europe governments are trying to put public finances back on track after years of overspending. Portugal and Greece have cut pensions and, with Spain, have slashed public sector wages as well as spending on hospitals and schools. Italy and France are also under pressure to control their budget deficits.

EU Economic and Monetary Affairs Commissioner Olli Rehn praised Spain for making progress in trimming its budget but acknowledged many Spaniards are struggling.

Germany's central bank, the Bundesbank, said in a report on Wednesday that the euro zone debt crisis is still the number one risk to German banks and insurers, and the situation had not improved from last year.

Promises from the European Central Bank to support sovereign bond prices for countries that seek aid have brought some relief to Spain and Italy in the capital markets. On Wednesday Italy sold 3-year bonds at the lowest borrowing cost in two years.

SPAIN TO STAY THE COURSE

The protests seem unlikely to force significant policy shifts. Spanish Economy Minister Luis de Guindos said the government would press on with spending cuts to meet ambitious deficit cutting targets, despite the strike.

Union leaders in Spain said more than 9 million workers had joined the general strike - the second this year.

The government said participation was much lower and many services were functioning normally. Stores opened in many parts of the country, though some had protesters outside.

About 5 million people, or 22 percent of the workforce, are union members in Spain. In Portugal about a quarter of the 5.5 million strong workforce is unionized.

Passions were inflamed when a Spanish woman jumped to her death last week as bailiffs tried to evict her from her home. Spaniards are furious at banks being rescued with public money while ordinary people suffer.

In Portugal, there is growing public and political opposition to austerity measures sought by Prime Minister Pedro Passos Coelho.

Inspectors from the "troika" of the International Monetary Fund, ECB and European Commission - who monitor implementation of bailout conditions - drew the protesters' anger. In Lisbon, thousands gathered in front of parliament shouting "This debt is not ours" and "Out IMF, out troika".

In Spain, protesters jammed cash machines with glue, and plastered anti-government stickers on shop windows. More than 600 flights were cancelled in Spain, mainly by Iberia and budget carrier Vueling. Portugal's TAP cancelled about 45 percent of flights.

In Greece, hundreds of strikers rallied peacefully in central Athens, holding giant Italian, Portuguese and Spanish flags and banners proclaiming "Enough is enough."

In France, trade unions organized marches in more than 100 cities but did not call for a strike.
DrafterX Offline
#32 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,595
12.21.12....Think Think Think
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