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Last post 11 years ago by ZRX1200. 45 replies replies.
Poll Question : Should we go over the cliff? (Poll is closed)
Choice Votes Statistics
NO! Politicos/pundits say it would be devastating 1 5 %
YES! Make my day, punk! 10 55 %
Okay, but Obama first 1 5 %
Soak them rich bastids! 2 11 %
47%ers need to pony up! 3 16 %
Don't touch my entitlements! 0 0 %
It all ends on the 21st anyway 1 5 %
Total 18 100%

Should we go over the cliff?
deadeyedick Offline
#1 Posted:
Joined: 03-13-2003
Posts: 17,169
The only way to cut Fed spending?

DED
DrafterX Offline
#2 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,588
seems to me Obama wants us to go over da cliff so he can blame the Repubs... then reinstate the tax breaks for the middle class and play hero... meanwhile the defense gets hacked all to hell and the rich get to pay up... prolly been his plan for the past year... Mellow
bloody spaniard Offline
#3 Posted:
Joined: 03-14-2003
Posts: 43,802
NO TARP II - full speed ahead towards the cliff! weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.... Gonz
DrMaddVibe Offline
#4 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,590
Jus' like Thelma & Louise!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXdN142_P7U
DadZilla3 Offline
#5 Posted:
Joined: 01-17-2009
Posts: 4,633
It's like after starting out from Boston we're nearing the Grand Canyon having gone pedal to the metal full speed every foot of the way, and now we're all of a sudden getting hysterical.

This particular sh*t has been preparing to hit the fan for quite some time now. And make no mistake, there's been plenty enough blame to go around on both sides of the aisle and in all our various halls of government for years now.
Gene363 Offline
#6 Posted:
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,876
Over! and shove DC over first!
jackconrad Offline
#7 Posted:
Joined: 06-09-2003
Posts: 67,461
The Cliff is real

but if we dive carfully

There is plenty of water at the bototm of it ..
dubleuhb Offline
#8 Posted:
Joined: 03-20-2011
Posts: 11,350
Onward.....and over, lets get this chit sorted out. The bitches that voted for the odumba will be the first to cry.
ZRX1200 Offline
#9 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,673
They wont cry.


They'll blame Bush.
HockeyDad Offline
#10 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,199
ZRX1200 wrote:
They wont cry.


They'll blame Bush.



Well if we never had the Bush tax cuts (that were supposedly for the rich) we wouldn't have all these tax cuts expiring now that in reality are going to hit the middle class and the working poor.

On the bright side, all we're doing is just going back to the Clinton era tax rates regardless of lower, middle, or upper class.
DrafterX Offline
#11 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,588
That Bassard Clinton.... Mad
rfenst Offline
#12 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,447
Only if they change "The Cliff" something less scary sounding!
Party's over. This thing will get done at the last minute, just like every set of negotiations in Washington. Obama will probably head out to Hawaii for some vacation with his family. The Repubs won't want to miss Christmas and New Year. It is quickly heading towards the wonks working it out behind the scene while the politicians stand on platitudes.
deadeyedick Offline
#13 Posted:
Joined: 03-13-2003
Posts: 17,169
I'm betting it does not get done before Jan 1st. And whatever does get done will be mostly the same empty promises of spending cuts later. " I will gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today." Drool

DED
dpnewell Offline
#14 Posted:
Joined: 03-16-2009
Posts: 7,491
Robert,
I don't think this is going to be resolved until after Jan 1st. Most polls show that the Republicans will shoulder the blame if we go over, and our President knows it. He'll allow the tax cuts to expire, go on TV, blame the greedy Republicans, then propose legislation to save the middle class from this Republican evil. The whole thing will be a big win for the President and the Dems.

We all know that if the nasty Republicans hadn't blocked everything the President tried to do back in '09 & '10, that this recession would be well over by now. Yes, I know that's sarcasim, but many of the President's supports believe this to be true, even though the Dems controlled the House, Senate and Persidency during those years. Re-writing of recent history, something the Dems count on.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#15 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,590
dpnewell wrote:
Robert,
I don't think this is going to be resolved until after Jan 1st. Most polls show that the Republicans will shoulder the blame if we go over, and our President knows it. He'll allow the tax cuts to expire, go on TV, blame the greedy Republicans, then propose legislation to save the middle class from this Republican evil. The whole thing will be a big win for the President and the Dems.

We all know that if the nasty Republicans hadn't blocked everything the President tried to do back in '09 & '10, that this recession would be well over by now. Yes, I know that's sarcasim, but many of the President's supports believe this to be true, even though the Dems controlled the House, Senate and Persidency during those years. Re-writing of recent history, something the Dems count on.



Those evil rotten republicans already voted waaaaay back in August to extend the Bush tax cuts. Job done.

They don't control the Senate nor the White House.

This game they're playing is for real. Jobs will be lost and taxes will be going up because they want to play games.

When does America become fed up with the game and do something besides send up crappy candidates where we're forced to choose the least crappier guy over the more crappier guy?
rfenst Offline
#16 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,447
dpnewell wrote:


Most polls show that the Republicans will shoulder the blame if we go over, and our President knows it. He'll allow the tax cuts to expire, go on TV, blame the greedy Republicans, then propose legislation to save the middle class from this Republican evil. The whole thing will be a big win for the President and the Dems.



Bingo!
Both sides will need to give up something to the other that the other can laud. Allowing your opponent to "save face" is a critical tool when they won't be going away.

Reps are in disarray without a grand plan how to market themselves. The Tea Party thing drags them too far to the right.

Checkmate Obama!
rfenst Offline
#17 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,447
DrMaddVibe wrote:
Those evil rotten republicans already voted waaaaay back in August to extend the Bush tax cuts. Job done.

They don't control the Senate nor the White House.

This game they're playing is for real. Jobs will be lost and taxes will be going up because they want to play games.

When does America become fed up with the game and do something besides send up crappy candidates where we're forced to choose the least crappier guy over the more crappier guy?


When peple have the balls to vote for their best candidate.
rfenst Offline
#18 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,447
DrMaddVibe wrote:
Those evil rotten republicans already voted waaaaay back in August to extend the Bush tax cuts. Job done.

They don't control the Senate nor the White House.

This game they're playing is for real. Jobs will be lost and taxes will be going up because they want to play games.

When does America become fed up with the game and do something besides send up crappy candidates where we're forced to choose the least crappier guy over the more crappier guy?


When peple have the balls to vote for their best candidate.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#19 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,590
rfenst wrote:
When peple have the balls to vote for their best candidate.



With the idiots that vote for Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama die maybe we might get there!
DrafterX Offline
#20 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,588
There will always be free stuff and the promise of more free stuff.... Mellow
HockeyDad Offline
#21 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,199
DrafterX wrote:
There will always be free stuff and the promise of more free stuff.... Mellow




...and the person who makes these promises is the best candidate.

Game over, America. We eventually will have to pay for our excesses.
Gene363 Offline
#22 Posted:
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,876
HockeyDad wrote:
...and the person who makes these promises is the best candidate.

Game over, America. We eventually will have to pay for our excesses.


And some folks actually believe the politicians are going to tax the very people that paid for their campaigns to pay off the bill. d'oh!
Stinkdyr Offline
#23 Posted:
Joined: 06-16-2009
Posts: 9,948
The Cliff is not as big as we think, and the water is not as deep.
And going over it is survivable.......just ask Ted Kennedy!

Beer
bloody spaniard Offline
#24 Posted:
Joined: 03-14-2003
Posts: 43,802
^ How do I communicate with Ted? He's been dead and in hell for years now.

Getting back to the fical cliff histrionics...
If not now, WHEN? Let's get it over & done with... (yawn) Ready to pay more for taxes & deserved pay raises.
Feel sorry for Government military contractors & others who'll finally be getting a taste of what some of us went through over a decade ago.
Enough with the nation building & fighting of wars for ingrates on our credit card.
Brewha Offline
#25 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,202
Tick tock. And courtesy of our elected Repulicans, over the cliff we go . . . .
Abrignac Offline
#26 Posted:
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,367
Brewha wrote:
Tick tock. And courtesy of our elected Repulicans, over the cliff we go . . . .



Actually we can thank 537 members of both the Republican and Democrat parties. But, it's always nice to point fingers.

Instead of attempting to find common ground, our leaders would rather play games than do what they were elected to do.


rfenst Offline
#27 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,447
Abrignac wrote:
Actually we can thank 537 members of both the Republican and Democrat parties. But, it's always nice to point fingers.

Instead of attempting to find common ground, our leaders would rather play games than do what they were elected to do.




It's been rank political brinkmanship. This is the norm right now. There was absolutely no chance of this getting resolved until after the election.

Boehner, who personally disengaged from discussions with Obama for the last several months and then again last week; who failed miserably with his "Plan B", which he couldn't even bring to a vote because it caused a revolt within his own party- because its members couldn't even ever get themselves on the same page; and then his announcing that the House won't vote on anything until the Senate passes a bill; doesn't deserve any finger pointing?

But, the biggest mistake of all was Bernanke naming this the "Fiscal Cliff", which scares the crap out of people for no reason at all.

Yet, we are all really to blame...
deadeyedick Offline
#28 Posted:
Joined: 03-13-2003
Posts: 17,169
What? The prez who named his own commission then completely ignored everything they recommended gets no blame?

DED
rfenst Offline
#29 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,447
deadeyedick wrote:
What? The prez who named his own commission then completely ignored everything they recommended gets no blame?

DED


No, he gets lots of blame too.
wheelrite Offline
#30 Posted:
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
It's a bunch political theater,,,

we went over the cliff a long time ago...
rfenst Offline
#31 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,447
wheelrite wrote:
It's a bunch political theater,,,

we went over the cliff a long time ago...


The real cliff!
But, I still have faith we will recover in due time- only to later F up again.
Brendan992 Offline
#32 Posted:
Joined: 12-18-2012
Posts: 61
I got be honest...I am somewhat troubled and can't understand why things stalled in the Senate so bad. Can someone educate me and let me know how many votes they need to pass a proposal? I thought the Dems had a majority. Is there some internal issues with the Dem party? It's all so damn confusing!
rfenst Offline
#33 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,447
Brendan992 wrote:
I got be honest...I am somewhat troubled and can't understand why things stalled in the Senate so bad. Can someone educate me and let me know how many votes they need to pass a proposal? I thought the Dems had a majority. Is there some internal issues with the Dem party? It's all so damn confusing!


No stall in the Senate. It has been making some progress towards accord, per the bits and pieces that have come out today. While Dems do have a Senate majority, there is no use in passing anything that is doomed to fail in the House.
wheelrite Offline
#34 Posted:
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
rfenst wrote:
The real cliff!
But, I still have faith we will recover in due time- only to later F up again.


ok
Polly Anna,,d'oh!
SMGBobbyScott Offline
#35 Posted:
Joined: 07-24-2012
Posts: 3,328
A deal has been reached...we will technically go over the cliff tonight, but the house will vote tomorrow on the deal...
ZRX1200 Offline
#36 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,673
Yeah a "deal".

Grab yer ankles cuz santa gonna be spending like always.
SMGBobbyScott Offline
#37 Posted:
Joined: 07-24-2012
Posts: 3,328
Probably...but not like before...at least for a little while.
rfenst Offline
#38 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,447
wheelrite wrote:
ok
Polly Anna,,d'oh!


If you do not believe we can recover from or correct our current, national fiscal problems, then why even complain or bother trying to fix things?
wheelrite Offline
#39 Posted:
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
rfenst wrote:
If you do not believe we can recover from or correct our current, national fiscal problems, then why even complain or bother trying to fix things?


Have you seen me complain ?

Nobody in our Govt has the brass to do what is needed.

Welcome to the " New Normal "
deadeyedick Offline
#40 Posted:
Joined: 03-13-2003
Posts: 17,169
wheelrite wrote:
Have you seen me complain ?

Nobody in our Govt has the brass to do what is needed.

Welcome to the " New Normal "



Exactly. Not one politician who wants to keep his job will do what is needed.

Unfortunately very few voters are willing to do what is needed either. Everybody wants someone else to shoulder the responsibility instead of across the board pain in every program including taxes and every area of spending.

DED
DadZilla3 Offline
#41 Posted:
Joined: 01-17-2009
Posts: 4,633
SMGBobbyScott wrote:
A deal has been reached...we will technically go over the cliff tonight, but the house will vote tomorrow on the deal...

All they are basically doing is arguing about how best to re-arrange the deck chairs on the Titanic.
ZRX1200 Offline
#42 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,673
Yeah when both sidessides are arguing over fixing 1% and 10% of the problem the country is in for it. Kicking the can only works till the end of the road.
bloody spaniard Offline
#43 Posted:
Joined: 03-14-2003
Posts: 43,802
Jaime, I think that you Dadzilla, and Wheel scored the holes in one.
Nothing much left to watch except for silly posturing, name calling, and keeping up with As the Hillary Turns.
ZRX1200 Offline
#44 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,673
Happy New Year Middle Class: The Fiscal Cliff Is Going To Rip You To Shreds

By Michael, on December 30th, 2012

The middle class has quite a gift welcoming them as the calendar flips over to 2013. Their payroll taxes are going to go up, their income taxes are going to go up, and approximately 28 million households are going to be hit with a huge, unexpected AMT tax bill on their 2012 earnings. So happy New Year middle class! You are about to be ripped to shreds. In addition to the tax increases that I just mentioned, approximately two million unemployed Americans will instantly lose their extended unemployment benefits when 2013 begins, and new Obamacare tax hikes which will cost American taxpayers about a trillion dollars over the next decade will start to go into effect. If Congress is not able to come to some sort of a deal, all middle class families in America will be sending thousands more dollars to Uncle Sam next year than they were previously. And considering the fact that the middle class is already steadily shrinking and that the U.S. economy is already in an advanced state of decline, that is not good news. You would think that both major political parties would want to do something to keep the middle class from being hit with this kind of tax sledgehammer. Unfortunately, at this point it appears that our "leaders" in Washington D.C. are incapable of getting anything done. So get ready for much smaller paychecks and much larger tax bills. What is coming is not going to be pleasant.

So what happened?

Weren't the tax increases only supposed to be for the wealthy?

Well, that is what the politicians always promise, but it is always the middle class that ends up getting hit the hardest.

In this day and age, the big corporations and the ultra-wealthy are absolute masters at avoiding taxes.

For example, Facebook paid approximately $4.64 million in taxes on their entire foreign profits of $1.344 billion for 2011.

That comes out to a tax rate of about 0.3 percent.

Overall, the global elite have approximately 18 trillion dollars parked in offshore tax havens such as the Cayman Islands.

Keep in mind that U.S. GDP for 2011 was only slightly above 15 trillion dollars.

So the global elite have an amount of money parked in offshore banks that is substantially larger than the total value of all goods and services produced in the United States each year.

According to one estimate, a third of all the wealth in the entire world is stationed in offshore banks. Our politicians are playing checkers and the global elite are playing chess when it comes to taxes. Our current system of taxation is irreversibly broken and should be entirely thrown out and replaced with something else.

And of course under our current system those that are poor don't pay much in taxes because they are just trying to survive.

So who always ends up getting the painful end of the hammer?

The middle class does, and that really stinks.

Let us hope and pray that our politicians can come together and do something for the middle class. In particular, we should all be screaming and yelling at our politicians about the Alternative Minimum Tax. It was originally designed as a method to "tax the rich", but unless Congress does something the middle class is about to be ripped to shreds by it. The following is from a recent CNBC article about the AMT...

In a cruel epilogue to 2012, roughly 28 million families would owe the IRS $86 billion more than they anticipated for this year should the country plunge off the cliff, according to the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center.

Those families would face the "Alternative Minimum Tax," which was introduced in 1969 to supposedly guarantee that wealthy Americans could not elude the taxman. But the AMT not only flopped, it was never indexed to inflation. So with each passing year, it seeps away from high society and into the wallets of Target and Wal-Mart shoppers. That sets up a disaster for April 15.

So how much money are we talking about?

According to that same article, many families are about to be socked by tax bills that will be absolutely huge...

On the whole, 98 percent of those with incomes between $200,000 to $500,000 would pay an additional $11,000 in AMT this year, according to the center's estimates. About 88 percent of those with incomes of $100,000 to $200,000 would need to fork over another $3100, and even the majority of Americans with earnings between $75,000 and $100,000 would have an AMT liability.

Most of the tax increases that will be coming as a result of the fiscal cliff will be for 2013 earnings, but the AMT tax hike will apply to 2012 earnings. So if you end up falling under the AMT, you better get ready to write a very large check to Uncle Sam in just a couple of months.

And the AMT is only just one of the very painful tax increases that American families will be facing. If no deal is reached in Congress, every single middle class American taxpayer will be dealing with significantly higher taxes.

A recent ABC News report entitled "Fiscal Cliff: By The Numbers" detailed some of the other tax increases that you can expect in 2013...

So why don't our politicians do something about all of this?

What are they fighting so bitterly about anyway?

Sadly, neither side is actually serious about substantially reducing the size of government deficits or about getting government spending under control.

During a recent interview on CNBC, Ron Paul explained that "they pretend they are fighting up there, but they really aren't. They are arguing over power, spin, who looks good, who looks bad; all trying to preserve the system where they can spend what they want, take care of their friends and print money when they need it."

Most in the mainstream media are making it sound like some kind of a "battle royal" is going on in Washington, but as Lou Dobbs recently pointed out, the U.S. national debt is going to end up in just about the same place no matter what happens.

According to Dobbs, if we "do nothing" the U.S. national debt will be approximately 25.8 trillion dollars in 2022.

If "Obama wins", the U.S. national debt will be approximately 25.4 trillion dollars in 2022.

If "Boehner wins", the U.S. national debt will be approximately 25.2 trillion dollars in 2022.

You can watch the entire analysis by Lou Dobbs right here...

So they are putting all of us through all of this torture even though nothing will really change in the long run no matter who wins?

What kind of a circus is this?

Meanwhile, the reckless spending continues.

Barack Obama has just issued a new executive order that ends the pay freeze for federal workers that had been in place.

So now all federal employees will be getting a nice hefty pay raise.

For example, Vice President Joe Biden brought in $225,521 this year.

Next year, he will make $231,900.

Not that our politicians really need the money. Most members of Congress are millionaires anyway. But if they can get us to pay for it, they might as well go for it, eh?

There are now close to half a million federal employees that bring home at least $100,000 a year. Plus, it is important to keep in mind that the benefits that federal employees get are absolutely outstanding, and it is close to impossible to actually fire a federal worker.

Life is good if you are working for Uncle Sam.

Meanwhile, our politicians seem determined to keep draining more blood out of the middle class. Even if a "deal" is reached, we will still be hit by some categories of tax increases. Let's just hope and pray that we don't get hit by all of the tax increases that are scheduled to go into effect. That would be a financial disaster for millions of families.

So happy New Year middle class. Your taxes are about to go through the roof and our politicians are too busy fighting with each other to do anything about it.

What else will 2013 bring?
ZRX1200 Offline
#45 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,673
http://www.politico.com/story/2013/01/the-price-tag-4-trillion-added-to-deficit-85651.html
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