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papers leaked
ZRX1200 Offline
#1 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,630
Someone Just Leaked Obama's Rules for Assassinating American Citizens Mike Riggs | Feb. 4, 2013 9:36 pm

For over a year now journalists, civil liberties advocates, and members of Congress have been asking the Obama administration to release internal memoranda from the Office of Legal Counsel justifying Obama's targeted killing program. While the White House continues to deny that such memos exist, NBC is reporting that it has acquired the next best thing: A secretish 16-page white paper from the Department of Justice that was provided to select members of the Senate last June.

Michael Isikoff reports that

[t]he 16-page memo, a copy of which was obtained by NBC News, provides new details about the legal reasoning behind one of the Obama administration’s most secretive and controversial polices: its dramatically increased use of drone strikes against al-Qaida suspects, including those aimed at American citizens, such as the September 2011 strike in Yemen that killed alleged al-Qaida operatives Anwar al-Awlaki and Samir Khan. Both were U.S. citizens who had never been indicted by the U.S. government nor charged with any crimes.

[T]he confidential Justice Department “white paper” introduces a more expansive definition of self-defense or imminent attack than described by Brennan or Holder in their public speeches. It refers, for example, to what it calls a “broader concept of imminence” than actual intelligence about any ongoing plot against the U.S. homeland.

Instead, it says, an “informed, high-level” official of the U.S. government may determine that the targeted American has been “recently” involved in “activities” posing a threat of a violent attack and “there is no evidence suggesting that he has renounced or abandoned such activities.” The memo does not define “recently” or “activities.”
kombat96 Offline
#2 Posted:
Joined: 04-12-2010
Posts: 9,717
So what are these papers try to say?
DrMaddVibe Offline
#3 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,516
Dey be sayin' "roll me a bigg phattie an twist mes up in it"...lick lick lick..."who gonna spark dis up in da hizzy?"

That's what the paper is sayin Special K!
rfenst Offline
#4 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,379
So what? I have no problem with killing those outside our borders, who are a likely lethal terrorist and are a threat to the U.S. and other countries. If they happen to be U.S. citizens, F 'em. It's war...
DrMaddVibe Offline
#5 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,516
rfenst wrote:
So what? I have no problem with killing those outside our borders, who are a likely lethal terrorist and are a threat to the U.S. and other countries. If they happen to be U.S. citizens, F 'em. It's war...


And throw their sorry asses in Guantanamo FOREVER!


They got no rights...over there...here...screw 'em!

Until they take out uncle Fred...then the water works start and it's a national call to arms.

We can all see just how wonderful the Patriot Act worked out...no? Homeland Security?

Feeling better yet? Safer?

You're not.
rfenst Offline
#6 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,379
DrMaddVibe wrote:
And throw their sorry asses in Guantanamo FOREVER!


They got no rights...over there...here...screw 'em!

Until they take out uncle Fred...then the water works start and it's a national call to arms.

We can all see just how wonderful the Patriot Act worked out...no? Homeland Security?

Feeling better yet? Safer?

You're not.


If we can capture them alive, they have some rights. However if we can't reasonably capture them but can only kill them, I don't care.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#7 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,516
rfenst wrote:
If we can capture them alive, they have some rights. However if we can't reasonably capture them but can only kill them, I don't care.



Ah...yes...the ol' John Wayne...DEAD or ALIVE...yes...has a dramatic flair about it...sounds macho and absolute. Why if you dare ask a question well they'll throw YOU up against the wall screaming "You're either with us or against us"...yes...now where have I heard this before?

Tellin' ya...it just never works out. Used to be a time when being a US citizen meant you had certain freedoms...liberties...sigh...those were the days.
rfenst Offline
#8 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,379
DrMaddVibe wrote:
Ah...yes...the ol' John Wayne...DEAD or ALIVE...yes...has a dramatic flair about it...sounds macho and absolute. Why if you dare ask a question well they'll throw YOU up against the wall screaming "You're either with us or against us"...yes...now where have I heard this before?

Tellin' ya...it just never works out. Used to be a time when being a US citizen meant you had certain freedoms...liberties...sigh...those were the days.


As the world turns...
ZRX1200 Offline
#9 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,630
You Robert are fine with one man deciding a US citizen can be murdered without trial?
DrMaddVibe Offline
#10 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,516
ZRX1200 wrote:
You Robert are fine with one man deciding a US citizen can be murdered without trial?



With this administration...SURE!
HockeyDad Offline
#11 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,164
Obama is the deciderer.
victor809 Offline
#12 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
Did the document specify donation minimums for amnesty?
ZRX1200 Offline
#13 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,630
Victor the website has a link for the entire doc.
Buckwheat Offline
#14 Posted:
Joined: 04-15-2004
Posts: 12,251
Got any legit non-blogger sources for this story? Didn't think so.
ZRX1200 Offline
#15 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,630
NBC leaked the document.

Hey you are going to process and think what you want, just thought it was interesting.
ZRX1200 Offline
#16 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,630
Buckwheat.

They are DOING this Americans WERE killed without trial. The "document" is reported to be an outline of the administrations policy which they have not released.

So if it is "faked" is that a bigger deal to you than Americans being murdered without trial?
Buckwheat Offline
#17 Posted:
Joined: 04-15-2004
Posts: 12,251
Sorry. I just couldn't find anything on NBC's website about this but I was able to find multiple Blog sites with the info.

Really I don't care if US Citizens who associate with known terrorists are snuffed out in a military operation.
HockeyDad Offline
#18 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,164
http://openchannel.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/02/04/16843014-exclusive-justice-department-memo-reveals-legal-case-for-drone-strikes-on-americans?lite

It is the lead article on nbcnews.com. Not too hard to find.


YOU'RE WELCOME!
ZRX1200 Offline
#19 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,630
If they truly are guilty I agree.


But who is deciding that and based off of whose information at what threshold is that decision made.

And secondly is that whole process constitutional?
HockeyDad Offline
#20 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,164
Think of it as a "death panel". Those are OK.
DrafterX Offline
#21 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,566
do terrorist have insurance..?? Huh
would suck to be their agent now..... Mellow
DrMaddVibe Offline
#22 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,516
HockeyDad wrote:
Think of it as a "death panel". Those are OK.



Once again...SARAH PALIN WAS RIGHT!
DrMaddVibe Offline
#23 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,516
So...now the 6th Amendment is under attack?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution


This by the MOST transparent administration evah!
DrMaddVibe Offline
#24 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,516
You see what I did Z???
teedubbya Offline
#25 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
I think this is a bad idea as well, much like waterboarding. I think most in here will say one is ok theother is not based on their politics. Apparently it was presented to the Senate (in some form). I think we have two branches of the tree that are willing to bend things to fit their needs. Maybe all three.
borndead1 Offline
#26 Posted:
Joined: 11-07-2006
Posts: 5,216
rfenst wrote:
So what? I have no problem with killing those outside our borders, who are a likely lethal terrorist and are a threat to the U.S. and other countries. If they happen to be U.S. citizens, F 'em. It's war...



The biggest problem isn't the (alleged/accused) terrorists that are killed in these drone strikes. It is the number of non-targets killed along with them, who are estimated to number over 1,000 so far -- including almost 200 children. Another problem is that we are violating the borders and airspace of sovereign nations and dropping bombs. Dropping bombs and killing people are acts of war, and as such should be voted on by Congress.

I do have a big problem with this. As with all things government does, it is a slippery slope to go down. The definition of the word 'terrorist' has changed quite a bit in the last few years. I don't give a s#it if Al-Alawki was a terrorist. He was an American citizen. So was his son. We can't pick and choose which Americans the Constitution applies to. We have Constitutional rights for a reason. These rights are not there to protect the guilty, but the innocent. Once these rights are denied to those who have not even been CONVICTED of a crime....wow...it's a scary thought.
dpnewell Offline
#27 Posted:
Joined: 03-16-2009
Posts: 7,491
borndead1 wrote:
The biggest problem isn't the (alleged/accused) terrorists that are killed in these drone strikes. It is the number of non-targets killed along with them, who are estimated to number over 1,000 so far -- including almost 200 children. Another problem is that we are violating the borders and airspace of sovereign nations and dropping bombs. Dropping bombs and killing people are acts of war, and as such should be voted on by Congress.

I do have a big problem with this. As with all things government does, it is a slippery slope to go down. The definition of the word 'terrorist' has changed quite a bit in the last few years. I don't give a s#it if Al-Alawki was a terrorist. He was an American citizen. So was his son. We can't pick and choose which Americans the Constitution applies to. We have Constitutional rights for a reason. These rights are not there to protect the guilty, but the innocent. Once these rights are denied to those who have not even been CONVICTED of a crime....wow...it's a scary thought.


+1000 Applause
DrafterX Offline
#28 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,566
seems like the self-defense thing might play in here somewhere tho.... Think
teedubbya Offline
#29 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
.
Ron Paul is blaming foreign wars for the death of ex-Navy sniper Chris Kyle at a Texas gun range.

Never one to hold his tongue about U.S. military policy, the former congressman and presidential candidate caused a bit of controversy this week by tweeting that ex-Navy SEAL Chris Kyle, who was shot and killed at a gun range in Texas, had lived "by the sword" and died by it.

Chris Kyle's death seems to confirm that "he who lives by the sword dies by the sword." Treating PTSD at a firing range doesn't make sense

- Ron Paul (@RonPaul) February 4, 2013

Kyle was shot and killed Sunday, allegedly by a 25-year-old Iraq veteran. Kyle was the author of "American Sniper" and, with more than 150 kills, was the deadliest sniper in U.S. history when he left the military in 2009.

After receiving some criticism on Twitter, Paul, 77, later clarified his comment on Facebook, posing Kyle's death as an unintended consequence of "unconstitutional and unnecessary wars." On Monday evening, Paul posted the following note:

As a veteran, I certainly recognize that this weekend's violence and killing of Chris Kyle were a tragic and sad event. My condolences and prayers go out to Mr. Kyle's family. Unconstitutional and unnecessary wars have endless unintended consequences. A policy of non-violence, as Christ preached, would have prevented this and similar tragedies. -REP

Paul has vocally opposed the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan as unwarranted and unconstitutional. In his two recent presidential runs, Paul warned repeatedly of the consequences of America's wars and global military presence, citing the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks as blowback from U.S. foreign intervention.

Brewha Offline
#30 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,201
They were asking for it.
They're all asking for it . . . .
jpotts Offline
#31 Posted:
Joined: 06-14-2006
Posts: 28,811
I love this.

Certain people here were bleeding out their eyeballs that terrorists were being "tortured" by pouring water on their faces, and phone calls to places outside this country were being monitored. Now citizens - CITIZENS - of the United States traveling outside this country are being summarialy executed without due process, and without trial. The response by the same people mentioned above? Ho Humm.

The former were terrorists, not covered AT ALL by the Geneva Convention, and were no better than meat byproducts is captured. The latter have rights grated to them by their citizenship status.

It is little wonder why a Idi Amin wannabe is still in the Oval Office...
JadeRose Offline
#32 Posted:
Joined: 05-15-2008
Posts: 19,525
jpotts wrote:
I love this.

Certain people here were bleeding out their eyeballs that terrorists were being "tortured" by pouring water on their faces, and phone calls to places outside this country were being monitored. Now citizens - CITIZENS - of the United States traveling outside this country are being summarialy executed without due process, and without trial. The response by the same people mentioned above? Ho Humm.

The former were terrorists, not covered AT ALL by the Geneva Convention, and were no better than meat byproducts is captured. The latter have rights grated to them by their citizenship status.

It is little wonder why a Idi Amin wannabe is still in the Oval Office...





Don't you have an overseas trip to make?
wheelrite Offline
#33 Posted:
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
borndead1 wrote:
The biggest problem isn't the (alleged/accused) terrorists that are killed in these drone strikes. It is the number of non-targets killed along with them, who are estimated to number over 1,000 so far -- including almost 200 children. Another problem is that we are violating the borders and airspace of sovereign nations and dropping bombs. Dropping bombs and killing people are acts of war, and as such should be voted on by Congress.

I do have a big problem with this. As with all things government does, it is a slippery slope to go down. The definition of the word 'terrorist' has changed quite a bit in the last few years. I don't give a s#it if Al-Alawki was a terrorist. He was an American citizen. So was his son. We can't pick and choose which Americans the Constitution applies to. We have Constitutional rights for a reason. These rights are not there to protect the guilty, but the innocent. Once these rights are denied to those who have not even been CONVICTED of a crime....wow...it's a scary thought.


Well...
Ya gotta break a few eggs to make an omelette
dpnewell Offline
#34 Posted:
Joined: 03-16-2009
Posts: 7,491
Here's a link to an ACLU article on who now could be considered a "Domestic Terrorist" under the Patriot Act (yes, I know, Bush's fault, but your guy didn't do anything to overturn it).

http://www.aclu.org/national-security/how-usa-patriot-act-redefines-domestic-terrorism

After reading who could now be considered a "Domestic Terrorist", do you still think it's fine for the US Government to assassinate US Citizens whom they deem to be possible terrorists without a trial and conviction? Slippery slope indeed.
borndead1 Offline
#35 Posted:
Joined: 11-07-2006
Posts: 5,216
dpnewell wrote:
Here's a link to an ACLU article on who now could be considered a "Domestic Terrorist" under the Patriot Act (yes, I know, Bush's fault, but your guy didn't do anything to overturn it).

http://www.aclu.org/national-security/how-usa-patriot-act-redefines-domestic-terrorism

After reading who could now be considered a "Domestic Terrorist", do you still think it's fine for the US Government to assassinate US Citizens whom they deem to be possible terrorists without a trial and conviction? Slippery slope indeed.



A few legal precedents and a few more fringe wackos killing people and we could realistically be living in a nightmare world, with no privacy, no property rights, no guns, no freedom of assembly, and only the illusion of freedom of speech left.
HockeyDad Offline
#36 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,164
borndead1 wrote:
A few legal precedents and a few more fringe wackos killing people and we could realistically be living in a nightmare world, with no privacy, no property rights, no guns, no freedom of assembly, and only the illusion of freedom of speech left.



Hold still....look up....The drone needs to take your picture for your file.
Gene363 Offline
#37 Posted:
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,850
It was all fun and justified when they were offing terrorists savages in whothecare****stan but when Nixon II is POTUS things are really changed.
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