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Last post 10 years ago by DrafterX. 41 replies replies.
Obama warns US will 'isolate' Russia
Burner02 Offline
#1 Posted:
Joined: 12-21-2010
Posts: 12,884
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
DrafterX Offline
#2 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,557
ya... he's gonna keep them on the other side of the world and stuff.... just remember that we kicked their asses at election time... Mellow
PorknBeans Offline
#3 Posted:
Joined: 07-23-2013
Posts: 357
and putin laughed and laughed and laughed
Grady Wilson Offline
#4 Posted:
Joined: 03-03-2014
Posts: 64
March 03, 2014

Russia, Crimea and the Consequences of NATO Policy

Ukrainian Hangovers

by JEFFREY SOMMERS and MICHAEL HUDSON


Russia’s incursion (invasion if you prefer) into Crimea, with prospects for movement into Eastern Ukraine, is the culmination of US/NATO policy since 1991.

The unraveling of the USSR and its Soviet bloc (the Warsaw Pact) dismantled the largest empire in modern history. Even more striking, it was the most peaceful dissolution of a major empire in history. The fact that an empire stretching over a dozen time zones that included hundreds of ethnic groups with concrete historical and contemporary grievances with each other broke up without a bloodbath is nothing short of a miraculous – and a reflection of the destruction of spirit and even of economic understanding that marked the distortions of Stalinism, neither capitalist nor socialist but a bureaucratic collectivism whose final stage proved to be kleptocracy.

Part of the reason that this went off with such little violence was due to the mutual desire of President George H.W. Bush and Mikhail Gorbachev to end the Cold War’s threat of Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD). Gorbachev for his part recognized that the Warsaw Pact nations needed to be let go, in order to free resources to build up a more middle class consumer economy. Demilitarization was to be achieved by disarmament, all the more remarkable in view of the largest human losses suffered in world history from military invasion had occurred just two generations earlier. Germany became the focus, pending its reunification in1990. It had invaded its neighbors every generation or so since the Franco-Prussian War of 1870. In World War II it laid waste to the USSR and left 25 million of its people dead. Other East European nations, including Romania (and, along with victims of Stalinist oppression, e.g., the Baltics and Ukrainians, welcomed the Nazis and fought against Russia). The NATO alliance thus remained the main threat that had held the Soviet Union together

So Russia had vital security concerns that could only be met by assurances that NATO would not move into the Warsaw Pact states, where so much Soviet blood had been shed in World War II. President George H. W. Bush (#41) made assurances that if the Soviets were to dissolve the Warsaw Pact, Russia must be assured that the NATO would not fill the vacuum. But his successor, Bill Clinton, broke this promise by quickly taking the
former Warsaw Pact states into NATO, and then moved into territory formerly occupied and incorporated into the USSR with the Baltics.

It should have been foreseen – and probably was inevitable – that these new entrants wanted NATO, given their own experience with Soviet occupation. But the eagerness of a triumphalist United States to surround Russia militarily rather than disarm led Russian leaders to feel betrayed by the US breaking its word.

Russia today has watched covert attempts from the US State Department to the National Endowment for Democracy and other NGOs to break up their country as part of what is becoming a triumphalist global pattern. This threatens to remake their “near abroad” into a neoliberal periphery. Today’s confrontation has taken on an existential character for Russia since it saw NATO’s moves toward Georgia as cutting too close to the bone. The prospects of NATO assimilating Ukraine (Kiev) represents a seizure of Russia’s “heart”: the very ancestral home where Russia was founded and on which it repelled the fascist invasion in the Great Patriotic War–as it had a millennium earlier against the German Crusading Knights pledged to exterminate the Russian-Greek Orthodox population.

Most Russians never forgave Gorbachev for the deal he made with NATO. Russian diplomats have stated clearly that Ukraine is a line that cannot be crossed regarding potential NATO expansion. It is as if foreign agents worked in Texas to mobilize a violent ethnic minority to rejoin Mexico and then place a hostile military alliance on the US border.

The Crimea has been part of Russia for three hundred years. It is populated overwhelmingly by Russian speakers, who watch with alarm the rightwing nationalist violence in Kiev, all the more as many of its leaders are establishing symbolic and outright ideological ties with the old German Nazis. Viktor Yanunkovych was as much a crook as Ukraine’s previous kleptocratic leaders who wielded political power to rob the state and its public domain, neoliberal style. The Crimean population has reason to fear that their elected President was illegally deposed not for his kleptocracy, but as part of a regional and ethnic identity politics of the sort that the Americans are sponsoring throughout the world, from the ****e/Sunni split to similar splits in countries they seek to control. The only protection available is from Russia. That is the gift that Obama has given Putin, making him a defender of Ukraine rather than the aggressor.

Khrushchev’s drinking bout in 1954 when he turned Crimea over to Ukraine has caused a massive hangover. The West’s response to cure it with neoliberalism and NATO is not helping.

Jeffrey Sommers is an associate professor of political economy at the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, and is visiting faculty at the Stockholm School of Economics in Riga. He is co-editor of the forthcoming book The Contradictions of Austerity. In addition to CounterPunch he also publishes in The Financial Times, The Guardian, TruthOut and routinely appears as an expert on global television programs. He can be reached at: [email protected]
Burner02 Offline
#5 Posted:
Joined: 12-21-2010
Posts: 12,884
I long for the days of old when "Global Warming" was front and center.



Oh chit! That was just two weeks ago.
Grady Wilson Offline
#6 Posted:
Joined: 03-03-2014
Posts: 64
Bush did it.

"The Russian President also pointed out what he sees as a double standard by leaders in the United States and other Western countries, saying that the U.S. acted in Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya without a U.N. resolution authorizing that action or by "twisting" U.N. resolutions."
DrafterX Offline
#7 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,557
was just a matter of time before the double standard thing came out... but it's not like the Ukraine took out some Russian buildings tho... Think
victor809 Offline
#8 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/eugene-robinson-with-ukraine-crisis-the-us-has-a-credibility-problem/2014/03/03/f8f6a58a-a311-11e3-8466-d34c451760b9_story.html

TL/DR - we don't have a moral high ground, and russia is still a superpower. Nothing we can do.
Grady Wilson Offline
#9 Posted:
Joined: 03-03-2014
Posts: 64
DrafterX wrote:
was just a matter of time before the double standard thing came out... but it's not like the Ukraine took out some Russian buildings tho... Think



Which buildings did Iraq take out again?
HockeyDad Offline
#10 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,151
Grady Wilson wrote:
Which buildings did Iraq take out again?



They knocked out the Duncan Hines factory and took all the yellow cake.
HockeyDad Offline
#11 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,151
I find it odd that the article didn't even mention the USA role in Bosnia, Kosovo, and the dismantling of Yugoslavia.
DrafterX Offline
#12 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,557
Grady Wilson wrote:
Which buildings did Iraq take out again?



couple places over in El Segundo... Mellow
DrafterX Offline
#13 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,557
Russia reportedly test-fires Intercontinental Ballistic Missile
Published March 04, 2014 / FoxNews.comRussia said it successfully test-fired an Intercontinental Ballistic Missile Tuesday, according to a Reuters report.

The Strategic Rocket Forces launched an RS-12M Topol missile from a region near the Caspian Sea, successfully hitting its target in Kazakhstan, state-run news agency RIA reported, citing Igor Yegorov, a Defense Ministry spokesman.

Fox News could not independently confirm this report.

Earlier this year, the Russian military had announced plans to test around 70 types of rocket and missile weaponry, according to an RIA report.

The tests include about 300 launches of rockets, missiles and aerial drones, according to the report.

The military plans to conduct these tests in southern Russia at the Kapustin Yar range, an area known for tests of tactical ballistic missiles, air defense systems and multiple-launch rocket systems, RIA reported.


Film at 11... Mellow
Burner02 Offline
#14 Posted:
Joined: 12-21-2010
Posts: 12,884
"Kerry tells Putin to 'return troops to barracks,' reaffirms Ukraine support"





OhMyGod





That will fix it!
PorknBeans Offline
#15 Posted:
Joined: 07-23-2013
Posts: 357
and putin laughs and laughs and laughs at the baffoon kerry

its like putin and obummer are sitting at a chess board , putin has him in check and obummer trying to figure out how to get to get one of his pieces kinged
Grady Wilson Offline
#16 Posted:
Joined: 03-03-2014
Posts: 64
In the long run this is likely a bad move for Putin much like it was a bad move for the US. Follow the ruble.
frankj1 Offline
#17 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,223
between this thread and the one proclaiming Palin a foreign affairs savant, I still do not know what moves people trashing him think Obama should be making. This is not a testimony to O or Kerry, but no one ever says what moves the Alaskan visionary would be making RIGHT NOW. I have asked several times...silence. Other than those who consistently say it's none of our biz, what are the rest of the knockers looking for from the USA?

I highly doubt Obama and his team know how to settle this. So who speaks for Palin here? Evidently she saw this coming 6/8 years ago, what's her response?
victor809 Offline
#18 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
frankj1 wrote:
between this thread and the one proclaiming Palin a foreign affairs savant, I still do not know what moves people trashing him think Obama should be making. This is not a testimony to O or Kerry, but no one ever says what moves the Alaskan visionary would be making RIGHT NOW. I have asked several times...silence. Other than those who consistently say it's none of our biz, what are the rest of the knockers looking for from the USA?

I highly doubt Obama and his team know how to settle this. So who speaks for Palin here? Evidently she saw this coming 6/8 years ago, what's her response?


That's because there isn't any good response and everyone knows that.

The most frightening thing is there's a treaty made between Ukraine and NATO regarding protection from NATO after the Ukraine gave up their nukes... They can call on NATO for military assistance from Russia. This could cause serious problems.

If the US physically defends Ukraine we open up to a very real WWIII possibility.

There's nothing we can do, but offer sanctions against russia.
Burner02 Offline
#19 Posted:
Joined: 12-21-2010
Posts: 12,884
frankj1 wrote:
between this thread and the one proclaiming Palin a foreign affairs savant, I still do not know what moves people trashing him think Obama should be making. This is not a testimony to O or Kerry, but no one ever says what moves the Alaskan visionary would be making RIGHT NOW. I have asked several times...silence. Other than those who consistently say it's none of our biz, what are the rest of the knockers looking for from the USA?

I highly doubt Obama and his team know how to settle this. So who speaks for Palin here? Evidently she saw this coming 6/8 years ago, what's her response?



Don't know that the Kenyan is expected to do anything at this point based on his track record. He and his clown staff have not shown any spine to date when it comes to any policy other than gutting the American working class.

One can not successfully posture from a position of weakness when dealing with thugs like Putin.

Putin has no respect for the U.S. or the Kenyan.
DrafterX Offline
#20 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,557
Sarah could've shown Putin her boobs..... whose boobs do we have to offer now..?? Michelle's..??? Scared
PorknBeans Offline
#21 Posted:
Joined: 07-23-2013
Posts: 357
palin doesn't need to come up with a solution nor does she need anyone to make one up for her, just pointing out how he had his followers believing that the world will love the usa if he was elected hows that workin out for the obummer groupies
remember when she was made a national joke for thinking she new anything about russia, but of course the great wisdom of obummer was all we needed
or there was the debate with romney where he condescendingly replied to to the same situation i doubt any of his peoples remember, it was a long time ago

he's so far in over his head with his greater that thou ego, to bad the country needs to suffer at the hand of such an incompetant community organizer for 3 more years
but i bet everyone of you dunces that voted for him before would do it again if you could
DrafterX Offline
#22 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,557
I hear they will be able to..... Mellow

Think
maybe this is just what he's looking for... will there be an election if we're at war..?? Huh
frankj1 Offline
#23 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,223
victor809 wrote:
That's because there isn't any good response and everyone knows that.

The most frightening thing is there's a treaty made between Ukraine and NATO regarding protection from NATO after the Ukraine gave up their nukes... They can call on NATO for military assistance from Russia. This could cause serious problems.

If the US physically defends Ukraine we open up to a very real WWIII possibility.

There's nothing we can do, but offer sanctions against russia.


I'm leaning your way on this. It gets boring, and I learn nothing, when every third post on every 4th thread is like #14...

DrafterX Offline
#24 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,557
frankj1 wrote:
I'm leaning your way on this. It gets boring, and I learn nothing, when every third post on every 4th thread is like #14...




I know Frank.... I'm as concerned as anyone.. this could be bad but I think we'll step back and let this happen... when the locals are having parades flying the Russian flag I think that says alot.... are we gonna fight the locals too..?? I can't see them taking the whole country but I do see a new border..... Mellow
frankj1 Offline
#25 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,223
DrafterX wrote:
I know Frank.... I'm as concerned as anyone.. this could be bad but I think we'll step back and let this happen... when the locals are having parades flying the Russian flag I think that says alot.... are we gonna fight the locals too..?? I can't see them taking the whole country but I do see a new border..... Mellow

I think that's likely too.
victor809 Offline
#26 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
PorknBeans wrote:
palin doesn't need to come up with a solution nor does she need anyone to make one up for her, just pointing out how he had his followers believing that the world will love the usa if he was elected hows that workin out for the obummer groupies
remember when she was made a national joke for thinking she new anything about russia, but of course the great wisdom of obummer was all we needed
or there was the debate with romney where he condescendingly replied to to the same situation i doubt any of his peoples remember, it was a long time ago

he's so far in over his head with his greater that thou ego, to bad the country needs to suffer at the hand of such an incompetant community organizer for 3 more years
but i bet everyone of you dunces that voted for him before would do it again if you could


Really? Palin DOESN'T need to say what the right thing to do is?

How can you say what he's doing is wrong, if you haven't defined what the correct action is? You haven't even said what the desired outcome is, so for all we know Obama is doing exactly the best thing to achieve your desired outcome.

I mean, lets put palin's comment in context in the first place. She stated that because a US Senator didn't demand the entire country make an aggressive, forceful US military response to Russia's squabble with Georgia in 2008, that russia at some time would do it again with Ukraine.

I'd like to point out that aggressive military action against Russia in 2008 is just as bad as aggressive military action against Russia in 2014 (they were a superpower then, they're a superpower now, they have nukes... aggressive military action between two countries with nukes has been kinda avoided on purpose). She's playing armchair quarterback. She was able to say "you shoulda done this!" about an action in 2008 she probably barely understood. If we had gone to war in 2008, sure Putin wouldn't be trying to invade Ukraine in 2014.. .we'd probably still be fighting over what is left of Georgia. And she'd be yelling "you shouldn't have been so aggressive!"
Grady Wilson Offline
#27 Posted:
Joined: 03-03-2014
Posts: 64
Putin would fear Palin face it.
victor809 Offline
#28 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
Grady Wilson wrote:
Putin would fear Palin face it.


Yeah... she's a momma grizzly or whatever they call it.


Hang on....

Doesn't Putin shoot grizzlies... or wrestle them shirtless... or something like that?

victor809 Offline
#29 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/03/04/putin-hits-pause.html

Huh...
Seems like Obama's current tactics are working?
Grady Wilson Offline
#30 Posted:
Joined: 03-03-2014
Posts: 64
victor809 wrote:
Yeah... she's a momma grizzly or whatever they call it.


Hang on....

Doesn't Putin shoot grizzlies... or wrestle them shirtless... or something like that?




He is an intel guy. He realizes she has been watching him from her back porch.
victor809 Offline
#31 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/space/rockets/what-happens-if-russia-refuses-to-fly-us-astronauts-16555991

An interesting and very real issue with sanctions.
HockeyDad Offline
#32 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,151
victor809 wrote:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/03/04/putin-hits-pause.html

Huh...
Seems like Obama's current tactics are working?



Yes, Obama has the whole thing almost wrapped up.

Russia gets to keep as much of Ukraine as they would like. Problem solved.
DrafterX Offline
#33 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,557
will Russia get to keep the billion dollars too..?? Huh
victor809 Offline
#34 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
http://www.forbes.com/sites/gregsatell/2014/03/04/5-important-facts-that-the-western-press-is-getting-terribly-wrong-in-ukraine/
Burner02 Offline
#35 Posted:
Joined: 12-21-2010
Posts: 12,884
frankj1 wrote:
I'm leaning your way on this. It gets boring, and I learn nothing, when every third post on every 4th thread is like #14...





Sorry frankj1 that my #14 post does not sit well with you. I’m guessing by now that you may have depicted my disdain for our current president and his minions. Guess my fault is that I love this country and hate the way it is systematically being destroyed by the Kenyan. And by the way, the words in #14 were those of Kerry and not mine.
Bitter Klinger Offline
#36 Posted:
Joined: 03-23-2013
Posts: 877
Maybe obummer will get real mad and stomp off from his podium and kick a door or something...
DrafterX Offline
#37 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,557
well, nobody's asking about bengazi right now... maybe that was the plan.... Think
frankj1 Offline
#38 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,223
Burner02 wrote:
Sorry frankj1 that my #14 post does not sit well with you. I’m guessing by now that you may have depicted my disdain for our current president and his minions. Guess my fault is that I love this country and hate the way it is systematically being destroyed by the Kenyan. And by the way, the words in #14 were those of Kerry and not mine.

please accept my humble apology, sir. I meant Pork's post. Truly sorry, my bad.
gryphonms Offline
#39 Posted:
Joined: 04-14-2013
Posts: 1,983
Seems to me that there is an honest reoccurring theme in this OP. It is angering, and saddening to see our great country in decline due to political agendas and political incompetence.

I am truly frightened that if we involve ourselves militarily we could be starting a nuclear holocaust. Also the E.U. will not back any sanctions due to their dependence on oil from Russia.

I do not see anything we can do or would do that would make any difference.
Burner02 Offline
#40 Posted:
Joined: 12-21-2010
Posts: 12,884
frankj1 wrote:
please accept my humble apology, sir. I meant Pork's post. Truly sorry, my bad.


Apology not needed, I probably will pizzz someone off sooner than later.


fog
DrafterX Offline
#41 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,557
so it seems Crimea is ok being Russia... why is Obama saying no..?? Think
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