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Last post 9 years ago by TMCTLT. 47 replies replies.
The 8th Amendment to the US Constitution
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Buckwheat Offline
#1 Posted: Wed, Apr 30 2014, 9:19 AM EST
Joined: 04-15-2004
Posts: 12,251
What are your opinions on this Amendment?

Use this recent case as an example. http://tinyurl.com/pdrfgmc

I think if you call yourself a strict constitutionalist all of the Amendments should hold the same power of the Constitution as the "hot button" ones (i.e. #2). What's your thoughts? fog
tailgater Offline
#2 Posted: Wed, Apr 30 2014, 1:43 PM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
You can support the Constitution, including the 8th ammendment, while also supporting capital punishment.

This case was an error. A mistake.
It was not intended to make the guy suffer. Quite the opposite.


I had to google 8th amendment. Wasn't sure which one it was.
Turns out, it was right after the 7th...
DrafterX Offline
#3 Posted: Wed, Apr 30 2014, 1:49 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,564
Do convicted rapists & murderers have rights..?? Think
dstieger Offline
#4 Posted: Wed, Apr 30 2014, 1:57 PM EST
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,889
Cruel? Maybe. But accidental. Unusual? Guess so. So what? Had it gone as planned he'd be dead. As it is, he's dead. Did he suffer a little? Maybe, but I'm not shedding a tear. Doesn't mean I'd go piss on the Bill of Rights.
tailgater Offline
#5 Posted: Wed, Apr 30 2014, 2:34 PM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
DrafterX wrote:
Do convicted rapists & murderers have rights..?? Think


Not after we give them a drug induced convulsion.
drnos Offline
#6 Posted: Wed, Apr 30 2014, 2:38 PM EST
Joined: 10-29-2003
Posts: 2,787
I took an ethics class in 1975 that had a unit on criminal justice: Rehabilitation vs. Retribution. The debate rages on today no closer to resolution.

The classic though experiment: say a young man kills his mother in cold blood. Psychoanalysis shows indubitably that his only violent outburst ever would be against his mother. He no longer presents any danger to society. If he is rehabilitated, do we let him go?

Or, what if a petty thief suffers from kleptomania? The best psychoanalysis shows he will never be cured. Does he spend the rest of his life in prison?

There are way too many problems with a rehabilitation model of criminal justice. But it just doesn't go away. We still try to rehabilitate our criminals.

When California last did lethal injection, they would insert an IV into each arm to prevent such disasters. And they would swab the arms with alcohol before inserting the needles
dstieger Offline
#7 Posted: Wed, Apr 30 2014, 2:45 PM EST
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,889
^ The examples presume great value in the ability of psychoanalysis to predict future behavior in order to even have that debate. I'm not convinced we are any where near there yet.
DrafterX Offline
#8 Posted: Wed, Apr 30 2014, 2:47 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,564
tailgater wrote:
Not after we give them a drug induced convulsion.



felons can't vote and stuff right..?? Think
Buckwheat Offline
#9 Posted: Wed, Apr 30 2014, 2:55 PM EST
Joined: 04-15-2004
Posts: 12,251
tailgater wrote:
You can support the Constitution, including the 8th ammendment, while also supporting capital punishment.

This case was an error. A mistake.
It was not intended to make the guy suffer. Quite the opposite.


I had to google 8th amendment. Wasn't sure which one it was.
Turns out, it was right after the 7th...




So it it OK for the Government to break down your front door and seize all of your guns if it is a mistake? Just taking the above argument to the extreme.

I personally think that the guillotine is a pretty humane way to execute someone. Severs the spine in one quick blow. No pain or suffering. fog
DrafterX Offline
#10 Posted: Wed, Apr 30 2014, 3:00 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,564
'an eye for an eye' I say... fog
tailgater Offline
#11 Posted: Wed, Apr 30 2014, 3:02 PM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
Buckwheat wrote:


I personally think that the guillotine is a pretty humane way to execute someone. Severs the spine in one quick blow. No pain or suffering. fog


Guillotine, huh?
I prefer the V-cut.
Buckwheat Offline
#12 Posted: Wed, Apr 30 2014, 3:03 PM EST
Joined: 04-15-2004
Posts: 12,251
tailgater wrote:
Guillotine, huh?
I prefer the V-cut.



Applause
DrafterX Offline
#13 Posted: Wed, Apr 30 2014, 3:04 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,564
Everybody must get stoned... Whistle
tailgater Offline
#14 Posted: Wed, Apr 30 2014, 3:05 PM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
Buckwheat wrote:
So it it OK for the Government to break down your front door and seize all of your guns if it is a mistake? Just taking the above argument to the extreme.




No one said it was "OK".
But your scenario happens all the time.

Local cops or the feds or a swat team can break down your door with a court ordered warrant.
Obviously, mistakes will happen. Humans are involved.

In my opinion, this doesn't mean that we shouldn't do it. If we only proceeded when the course of action was deemed infallible, then we'd never get anywhere.
drnos Offline
#15 Posted: Wed, Apr 30 2014, 3:23 PM EST
Joined: 10-29-2003
Posts: 2,787
The colonists used to have stocks, tar & feather, banishment and all kinds of unusual punishments. "Take the case of a Southeastern Virginia man who was found guilty of just making a ``detracting speech'' about the governor. Having been found guilty as charged, the governor's critic was disarmed and arrested, after which his arms were broken and his tongue bored through with an awl."

They did have capital punishment. If we are strict constructionists, then we have to recognize that the authors and ratifiers of the 8th Amendment never saw any conflict with capital punishment.

Today's debacle doesn't change my mind one bit. Except we might want to consider going back to hanging or firing squads.
tailgater Offline
#16 Posted: Wed, Apr 30 2014, 3:25 PM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
^ and don't forget that awl thingy!
DrafterX Offline
#17 Posted: Wed, Apr 30 2014, 3:26 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,564
or we could put their head in a vise.... Mellow
Buckwheat Offline
#18 Posted: Wed, Apr 30 2014, 3:29 PM EST
Joined: 04-15-2004
Posts: 12,251
No argument from me on Capital Punishment; I just wanted to start a discussion on the 8th Amendment in the light of the botched execution in OK. Like I said above, I think that the guillotine would be acceptable in my mind. Just being a chit stirrer.
tailgater Offline
#19 Posted: Wed, Apr 30 2014, 3:29 PM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
That's all we need: another vise...
jetblasted Offline
#20 Posted: Wed, Apr 30 2014, 3:29 PM EST
Joined: 08-30-2004
Posts: 42,595
He was sentenced to death & the sentence was carried out. End of story.
tailgater Offline
#21 Posted: Wed, Apr 30 2014, 3:30 PM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
Buckwheat wrote:
Like I said above, I think that the guillotine would be acceptable in my mind.


Careful how you word that.
cacman Offline
#22 Posted: Wed, Apr 30 2014, 3:44 PM EST
Joined: 07-03-2010
Posts: 12,216
From the movie Citizen X: After conviction the criminal is taken to a basement shower area, stripped, and shot in the back of the head. Casing is collected and sent to the family with a bill for the cost. Done.
Abrignac Offline
#23 Posted: Wed, Apr 30 2014, 4:04 PM EST
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,329
Has anyone ever been able to quantify where the threshold is between cruel and humane, or unusual or normal?

Personally I think the best measure is based on what someone has done themselves. Let that define what is normal and humane in their case.

As far as rehabilitation is concerned, that usually comes into play when a petty thief realizes society has given up in him because he didn't learn his lesson the last fifteen times he was arrested so he's now facing long term incarceration because of habitual sentencing. Faced with serious time now he wants rehab or some other state provided services.
Puffnstuff79 Offline
#24 Posted: Wed, Apr 30 2014, 4:06 PM EST
Joined: 02-24-2014
Posts: 4,752
Hmmmm.....
Puffnstuff79 Offline
#25 Posted: Wed, Apr 30 2014, 4:08 PM EST
Joined: 02-24-2014
Posts: 4,752
Glad we are all forgiven for we know not what we say.
Abrignac Offline
#26 Posted: Wed, Apr 30 2014, 4:15 PM EST
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,329
Is someone being a little judgemental?
Puffnstuff79 Offline
#27 Posted: Wed, Apr 30 2014, 5:20 PM EST
Joined: 02-24-2014
Posts: 4,752
Not about what your saying. I agree, I should've quoted. We seemed to have been typing at the same time. Being judgmental is anyone thinking they have the right to choose death for another persons life.
Puffnstuff79 Offline
#28 Posted: Wed, Apr 30 2014, 5:27 PM EST
Joined: 02-24-2014
Posts: 4,752
In the heat of passion or protection or many other cases there is mitigating factors residing within each. When someone is already stopped then why break their arm?
jetblasted Offline
#29 Posted: Wed, Apr 30 2014, 6:46 PM EST
Joined: 08-30-2004
Posts: 42,595
Puffnstuff79 wrote:
Being judgmental is anyone thinking they have the right to choose death for another persons life.

Was he judged by a jury of his peers ?

Mellow
Buckwheat Offline
#30 Posted: Wed, Apr 30 2014, 7:04 PM EST
Joined: 04-15-2004
Posts: 12,251
Abrignac wrote:
Has anyone ever been able to quantify where the threshold is between cruel and humane, or unusual or normal?

Personally I think the best measure is based on what someone has done themselves. Let that define what is normal and humane in their case.

As far as rehabilitation is concerned, that usually comes into play when a petty thief realizes society has given up in him because he didn't learn his lesson the last fifteen times he was arrested so he's now facing long term incarceration because of habitual sentencing. Faced with serious time now he wants rehab or some other state provided services.


Yes. The Supreme Court has done it numerous times over the years. Google "Furman v. Georgia" case in 1972 and also Google the "8th Amendment" and read up on the other cases which makeup this law. Interesting history.
Puffnstuff79 Offline
#31 Posted: Wed, Apr 30 2014, 8:16 PM EST
Joined: 02-24-2014
Posts: 4,752
jetblasted wrote:
Was he judged by a jury of his peers ?

Mellow


Were witches? Christ? Takes a certain breed to kill. Some were bread to kill. Let's just get real. One man kills, so he's killed, then his family kills, then their friends kill, etc. Frying pan horse ram27bat
tailgater Offline
#32 Posted: Wed, Apr 30 2014, 10:42 PM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
Puffnstuff79 wrote:
Not about what your saying. I agree, I should've quoted. We seemed to have been typing at the same time. Being judgmental is anyone thinking they have the right to choose death for another persons life.


You talking about abortion?
cacman Offline
#33 Posted: Thu, May 1 2014, 1:51 AM EST
Joined: 07-03-2010
Posts: 12,216
tailgater wrote:
You talking about abortion?

oooooh… now you've really thrown a monkey wrench into the works!
Puffnstuff79 Offline
#34 Posted: Thu, May 1 2014, 8:49 AM EST
Joined: 02-24-2014
Posts: 4,752
tailgater wrote:
You talking about abortion?


Just another person on the side of life. Another one of my easier picks of the things God has advised us to do. And of you want to know which one (for all the wise a$$es) I'll takes Jesus please.
gryphonms Offline
#35 Posted: Thu, May 1 2014, 10:13 AM EST
Joined: 04-14-2013
Posts: 1,983
Just because something such as the death penalty is legally right does not make it morally right. I am opposed to the death penalty based on my beliefs. God chooses who lives and dies, not me.
tailgater Offline
#36 Posted: Thu, May 1 2014, 10:25 AM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
If some whack job raped, tortured and killed your wife and kids yesterday, you wouldn't want the option of a death penalty?

I find that difficult to believe.
Gene363 Offline
#37 Posted: Thu, May 1 2014, 10:27 AM EST
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,844

If it's not cruel and usual, it's not really punishment. Frying pan Frying pan Frying pan
DrafterX Offline
#38 Posted: Thu, May 1 2014, 10:28 AM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,564
Think
Puffnstuff79 Offline
#39 Posted: Thu, May 1 2014, 12:56 PM EST
Joined: 02-24-2014
Posts: 4,752
tailgater wrote:
If some whack job raped, tortured and killed your wife and kids yesterday, you wouldn't want the option of a death penalty?

I find that difficult to believe.





But ten years down the road when you've decided to move on and forgive you might be glad you don't have to overcome the same scenario the original killer did in their spiritual life. Of course, instinct says to kill back. We probably couldn't stop ourselves if we got to em in time before the police if you know who did it. Mitigating factor.
tailgater Offline
#40 Posted: Thu, May 1 2014, 3:26 PM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
Puffnstuff79 wrote:
But ten years down the road when you've decided to move on and forgive you might be glad you don't have to overcome the same scenario the original killer did in their spiritual life. Of course, instinct says to kill back. We probably couldn't stop ourselves if we got to em in time before the police if you know who did it. Mitigating factor.


I don't believe in the eye 4 eye mantra. Most killers don't need to be dead.
But some do.
DrafterX Offline
#41 Posted: Thu, May 1 2014, 3:34 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,564
well, we could always implement the 2 kill rule... Mellow
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#42 Posted: Mon, Jun 2 2014, 9:47 PM EST
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248

i am not in favor of capital punishment(no ****4 rick, liberal pinko commie).

but how much pain did the convicted felon cause to the person he killed. how many

times did he stab his victim with a knife. how long did he chock his victim before the

victim's suffering was over?
cacman Offline
#43 Posted: Tue, Jun 3 2014, 2:34 AM EST
Joined: 07-03-2010
Posts: 12,216
Don't commit the crime unless you're willing to serve the time… or punishment as it be.

Do these criminals consider their victims cruel and unusual punishment? How can they expect better treatment than what they imposed on their victims?
ZRX1200 Offline
#44 Posted: Tue, Jun 3 2014, 3:10 AM EST
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,628
Uncle RICK, the way you say that is arousing.
TMCTLT Offline
#45 Posted: Tue, Jun 3 2014, 7:42 AM EST
Joined: 11-22-2007
Posts: 19,733
gryphonms wrote:
Just because something such as the death penalty is legally right does not make it morally right. I am opposed to the death penalty based on my beliefs. God chooses who lives and dies, not me.



I just read THiS, come on now....do YOU really believe this? So he chooses to let a small child die at the hands of some Fuckhead who has zero respect for life?? He chose to let the planes hit the towers? While I do believe in creation and A GOD, I DO NOT for one minute think HE / SHE decides who dies and on what day.......

And, if what you say IS true, if it was Gods will to decide who lives and who dies.....what's to say then that HE did NOT direct those folks @ the prison to kill this man in that way? fog
stogiemonger Offline
#46 Posted: Tue, Jun 3 2014, 7:50 AM EST
Joined: 06-25-2009
Posts: 4,185
Death penalty debate aside, I believe it can be argued, that it is cruel and unusual punishment to impose a slow death, such as in the case of the botched lethal injection.

There are far more efficient, time tested, and proven methods of a quick and humane execution, that have been used by governments over time. It seems that we, as a nation, have become oversensitive to the methods of execution used, if they are ugly. It seems we are more comfortable with a "nice easy death".

The aforementioned execution methods (firing squad, guillotine, hanging) would likely stand any 8th amendment challenges. Botched slow lethal injections may not fare out so well against any 8th amendment challenges.
TMCTLT Offline
#47 Posted: Tue, Jun 3 2014, 7:55 AM EST
Joined: 11-22-2007
Posts: 19,733
Only when the criminal element takes " humane treatment " for their victims into account....should we then consider them!!! I like the one bullet to the back of the head with billing for said bullet to the estate of the killer.
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