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Last post 8 years ago by teedubbya. 45 replies replies.
Debate lies told - just the 9 PM one
tonygraz Offline
#1 Posted:
Joined: 08-11-2008
Posts: 20,262

Florida Sen. Marco Rubio said that “over 40 percent of small and mid-size banks … have been wiped out” since the Dodd-Frank law was passed. Actually, the total number of commercial banks has gone down only 16 percent, continuing a longtime trend.
Businessman Donald Trump said his net worth is $10 billion, but outside estimates put the figure much lower.
Former Florida Gov. Jeb Bush twice claimed that he cut taxes in the state by $19 billion. But that includes cuts in Florida estate taxes mandated by federal law that Bush had nothing to do with.
Ohio Gov. John Kasich claimed his state’s Medicaid program “is growing at one of the lowest rates in the country.” Ohio ranks 16th in terms of enrollment growth post-Affordable Care Act among the 30 expansion states and Washington, D.C.
Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker claimed his state “more than made up” for the job losses from the recession. That’s a stretch. The state has gained 4,000 jobs since the start of the recession.
Rubio said he had never advocated exceptions for rape or incest to abortion bans, but he cosponsored a bill in 2013 that contained just such exceptions.
Boasting about his education initiatives while governor, Bush claimed that the graduation rate “improved by 50 percent.” But most of the increase happened after Bush left office; the rate increased about 13 percent when he was governor.
Bush claimed that the U.S. spends more per student than any other country, but Luxembourg, Switzerland and Norway all spend more for primary and secondary education.
Former Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee repeated the old claim that Obamacare “robbed” Medicare of $700 billion. That’s a reduction in the future growth of spending over 10 years.
Gene363 Offline
#2 Posted:
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,820
tonygraz wrote:
Florida Sen. Marco Rubio said that “over 40 percent of small and mid-size banks … have been wiped out” since the Dodd-Frank law was passed. Actually, the total number of commercial banks has gone down only 16 percent, continuing a longtime trend.
Businessman Donald Trump said his net worth is $10 billion, but outside estimates put the figure much lower.
Former Florida Gov. Jeb Bush twice claimed that he cut taxes in the state by $19 billion. But that includes cuts in Florida estate taxes mandated by federal law that Bush had nothing to do with.
Ohio Gov. John Kasich claimed his state’s Medicaid program “is growing at one of the lowest rates in the country.” Ohio ranks 16th in terms of enrollment growth post-Affordable Care Act among the 30 expansion states and Washington, D.C.
Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker claimed his state “more than made up” for the job losses from the recession. That’s a stretch. The state has gained 4,000 jobs since the start of the recession.
Rubio said he had never advocated exceptions for rape or incest to abortion bans, but he cosponsored a bill in 2013 that contained just such exceptions.
Boasting about his education initiatives while governor, Bush claimed that the graduation rate “improved by 50 percent.” But most of the increase happened after Bush left office; the rate increased about 13 percent when he was governor.
Bush claimed that the U.S. spends more per student than any other country, but Luxembourg, Switzerland and Norway all spend more for primary and secondary education.
Former Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee repeated the old claim that Obamacare “robbed” Medicare of $700 billion. That’s a reduction in the future growth of spending over 10 years.


Politicians, they lie, no excuse, but they never tell voters the truth. Both parties lie, that's one reason not to get to smug about drinking the Kool-Aid from either party.

Now what I do find ironic is the highlighted part. Any time republicans want to reduce the spending rate for welfare the democrats start screaming the republicans are slashing the program.
teedubbya Offline
#3 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
Gene we agree again. I would like to know where that figure comes from though. Because the dens will calculate it's saving money.
ZRX1200 Offline
#4 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,615
Dailykos, mediamatters or Motherjones?
tonygraz Offline
#5 Posted:
Joined: 08-11-2008
Posts: 20,262
It appears you are still buying the lie. Check here or look it up elsewhere: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2012/aug/15/checking-facts-700-billion-medicare-cut/
VaMtnMan Offline
#6 Posted:
Joined: 06-25-2007
Posts: 3,743
Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha..........Politifact.
teedubbya Offline
#7 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
Just curious. What is a solid source anymore?
Gene363 Offline
#8 Posted:
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,820
I don't know about the cut, but found this:

http://dailysignal.com/2012/08/01/obamacare-robs-medicare-of-716-billion-to-fund-itself/

Quoted below, the same cuts Vs slower increases is hashed around in the comments at the bottom of the page, pick your results.

Quote:

Last week, a new Congressional Budget Office (CBO) report updated the amount of money Obamacare robs out of Medicare from $500 billion to a whopping $716 billion between 2013 and 2022.

According to the CBO, the payment cuts in Medicare include:

A $260 billion payment cut for hospital services.
A $39 billion payment cut for skilled nursing services.
A $17 billion payment cut for hospice services.
A $66 billion payment cut for home health services.
A $33 billion payment cut for all other services.
A $156 billion cut in payment rates in Medicare Advantage (MA); $156 billion is before considering interactions with other provisions. The House Ways and Means Committee was able to include interactions with other provisions, estimating the cuts to MA to be even higher, coming in at $308 billion.
$56 billion in cuts for disproportionate share hospital (DSH) payments.* DSH payments go to hospitals that serve a large number of low-income patients.
$114 billion in other provisions pertaining to Medicare, Medicaid, and CHIP* (does not include coverage-related provisions).

*Subtract $25 billion total between DSH payments and other provisions for spending that was cut from Medicaid and CHIP.

In total, Obamacare raids Medicare by $716 billion from 2013 to 2022. Despite Medicare facing a 75-year unfunded obligation of $37 trillion, Obamacare uses the savings from the cuts to pay for other provisions in Obamacare, not to help shore up Medicare’s finances.

The impact of these cuts will be detrimental to seniors’ access to care. The Medicare trustees 2012 report concludes that these lower Medicare payment rates will cause an estimated 15 percent of hospitals, skilled nursing facilities, and home health agencies to operate at a loss by 2019, 25 percent to operate at a loss in 2030, and 40 percent by 2050. Operating at a loss means these facilities are likely to cut back their services to Medicare patients or close their doors, making it more difficult for seniors to access these services.

In addition, as MA deteriorates under Obamacare’s cuts, many of those who are enrolled in MA (27 percent of total Medicare beneficiaries) will lose their current health coverage and be forced back into traditional Medicare, where Medicare providers will be subject to further cuts. The Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services chief actuary predicted in 2010 that enrollment in MA would decrease 50 percent by 2017, when Obamacare’s cuts were estimated at only $145 billion. Now that the cuts have been increased to $156 billion (or possibly $308 billion, as the Ways and Means Committee estimates), MA enrollment will surely decrease even further.

But Obamacare’s raid of Medicare doesn’t stop with cuts; it includes a redirection of tax revenue from the Medicare payroll tax hike in Obamacare. The payroll tax funds Medicare Part A, the trust fund that is projected to become insolvent as soon as 2024. Obamacare increases the tax from 2.9 percent to 3.8 percent, which is projected to cost taxpayers $318 billion from 2013 to 2022. However, for the very first time, Obamacare does not use the tax revenue from the increased Medicare payroll tax to pay for Medicare; the money is used to fund other parts of Obamacare, much like the $716 billion in cuts are.

With a raid on Medicare of this magnitude, President Obama’s assertion that his new law is protecting seniors and Medicare is astonishing. The truth is that Obamacare does the opposite.
tonygraz Offline
#9 Posted:
Joined: 08-11-2008
Posts: 20,262
You don't seem to get it, the cuts are to payments made to those who provide medical care.
danmdevries Offline
#10 Posted:
Joined: 02-11-2014
Posts: 17,392
tonygraz wrote:
You don't seem to get it, the cuts are to payments made to those who provide medical care.


Yup.

Gene363 Offline
#11 Posted:
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,820
tonygraz wrote:
You don't seem to get it, the cuts are to payments made to those who provide medical care.


Santa Claus will make up the difference.
frankj1 Offline
#12 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,221
Gene363 wrote:
Santa Claus will make up the difference.

I admit I am totally overwhelmed by your cut and paste post and not qualified nor educated in the lingo well enough to "get it", but I certainly don't understand how posts 9 and 10 are addressed by the Santa comment.
tonygraz Offline
#13 Posted:
Joined: 08-11-2008
Posts: 20,262
Gene: Gotta expect you believe in Santa Claus, you buy everything else phony that they are selling.
Gene363 Offline
#14 Posted:
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,820

Knowing so much about Santa Clause I'm surprised you're struggling with sarcasm. Your density, intended or unintended, is not my concern. Frying pan
Gene363 Offline
#15 Posted:
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,820
tonygraz wrote:
Gene: Gotta expect you believe in Santa Claus, you buy everything else phony that they are selling.


Then you acknowledge the medicare patient is going to pay the difference. Or perhaps you believe the bill fairy will make up the difference.
tonygraz Offline
#16 Posted:
Joined: 08-11-2008
Posts: 20,262
Try not to be a total clod- the medical provider gets less, the medicare patient pays the same copay. Perhaps you need to see it in colored crayon to understand it.
teedubbya Offline
#17 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
There are many places in the system that will feel it. Some deserve/need it, some don't. There are winners there are losers and there are yet unrealized efficiencies.
Gene363 Offline
#18 Posted:
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,820
tonygraz wrote:
Try not to be a total clod- the medical provider gets less, the medicare patient pays the same copay. Perhaps you need to see it in colored crayon to understand it.


You need to review some charges vs reimbursements for medicare coverage, that way you could argue facts instead of calling people names. The copay doesn't prevent billing for the difference between what medicare pays and what the hospital charges, and there is already a substantial difference. Hospitals and medical care providers do not work for free.
ZRX1200 Offline
#19 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,615
Yeah Medicare is regulating us out the wazzu now and is set to cut our reimbursement by 40%!!!!!!!

Yeah companies won't change how customers are treated at all.............

"Why can't I get that, my doctor wrote a Rx?"
"Well your insurance company will take 12 years for us to brake even on that, and they quit paying after 3".
TMCTLT Offline
#20 Posted:
Joined: 11-22-2007
Posts: 19,733
Gene363 wrote:
You need to review some charges vs reimbursements for medicare coverage, that way you could argue facts instead of calling people names. The copay doesn't prevent billing for the difference between what medicare pays and what the hospital charges, and there is already a substantial difference. Hospitals and medical care providers do not work for free.




It's okay Gene, somewhere along the line someone told Tony that we were guaranteed healthcare even those who've done nothing their entire lives to provide for themselves and their offspring. IT all started off as
" humanitarian work " but once the word got out that you can score something for nuttin....it was ON
Abrignac Offline
#21 Posted:
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,278
tonygraz wrote:
Try not to be a total clod- the medical provider gets less, the medicare patient pays the same copay. Perhaps you need to see it in colored crayon to understand it.


Surely you see the problem this creates. As Medicare cuts it's reimbursement rates it will effect care in some way. Doctors have a few options, none of which provide better care Medicare recipients. Doctors can choose to nothing, but if so their earnings will go down. If they want to maintain their income level they will have to see more patients, but that means they will spend less time with a particular patient. Or, they can choose to opt out of Medicare altogether.
Gene363 Offline
#22 Posted:
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,820
teedubbya wrote:
There are many places in the system that will feel it. Some deserve/need it, some don't. There are winners there are losers and there are yet unrealized efficiencies.


True. It's a national shame the actual costs for medical care were lost in the parliament of whores, (congress) but that is exactly what the insurance industry and the trial lawyers wanted to happen.
tonygraz Offline
#23 Posted:
Joined: 08-11-2008
Posts: 20,262
But the FACT IS that the ACA did not rob medicare as the republicans keep saying. It would be nice if we had national healthcare like the rest of the first world countries.
tonygraz Offline
#24 Posted:
Joined: 08-11-2008
Posts: 20,262
Gene363 wrote:
Knowing so much about Santa Clause I'm surprised you're struggling with sarcasm. Your density, intended or unintended, is not my concern. Frying pan


You started it !
teedubbya Offline
#25 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
#18 it does prevent billing the difference between allowed and charged if they accept assignment or something like 15% (don't remember the exact, some caveats on limiting charges but fairly rare) more than allowed if they do not. Most reputable hospitals accept assignment (a few exclusive excepted) About the only time a hospital receives billed charges is when a patient is private pay.

To top it off billed charges mean nothing.
ZRX1200 Offline
#26 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,615
^ we're seeing about 80% doctors refusing new medicare patients. And we're around 70% medicare here where national average is 35-40%.....

We're also seeing MOST of our compitition refusing medicare patients completely, and most are doing the same with (OHP) Medicaid. Medicaid actually pays us less than cost of goods on about 70% of the items we carry.
TMCTLT Offline
#27 Posted:
Joined: 11-22-2007
Posts: 19,733
tonygraz wrote:
But the FACT IS that the ACA did not rob medicare as the republicans keep saying. It would be nice if we had national healthcare like the rest of the first world countries.



Who ARE all slowly going broke....and just because it " exists " are we certain everyone is being served?
Abrignac Offline
#28 Posted:
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,278
Though I don't like the punitive measures in the current form of Obamacare, I'm still trying to figure out what is wrong with having as many people as possible covered by some type of healthcare plan. Until we get to that point, uninsured are going to continue going to the emergency room for ailments that can be cured with a simple office visit. In addition, having a primary care doctor whom one goes to for an annual checkup provides a means of early intervention which probably results in that person living a healthier life.

As far as going broke, the more a hospital is forced to treat the uninsured, the quicker they are going to go bankrupt. In the last four years are so, two of the four hospitals in Baton Rouge closed to some extent. One hospital shut down completely and by the end of the month all that will be left at that site will be a concrete slab because our Governor saw fit to privatize the charity hospital system. The other hospital closed it's emergency room because it was losing about $12M a month. About 90% of it's ER patients were poor and without healthcare. As a result, that ER mostly treated illnesses normally treated through primary care office visits.

teedubbya Offline
#29 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
Zrx no doubt that is an issue.
teedubbya Offline
#30 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
Some would argue many hospitals need to go out of business. They are failing businesses that have been subsidized for years. Inpatient days have gone down over the years and continue to. The idea of a hospital in all or most counties is outdated. The use of a hospital as a PCP is horribly expensive.

The hospital system I worked for knew we had to shift out business model. We knew we had to have more empty beds, less inpatient days, to make money. It seems counterintuitive but it's true.

Billed charges meant/mean nothing. They are in no way based on or relative to cost. payment certainly is not relative to charges. A hospital can charge $1000 for an aspirin because it means nothing.
TMCTLT Offline
#31 Posted:
Joined: 11-22-2007
Posts: 19,733
Abrignac wrote:
Though I don't like the punitive measures in the current form of Obamacare, I'm still trying to figure out what is wrong with having as many people as possible covered by some type of healthcare plan. Until we get to that point, uninsured are going to continue going to the emergency room for ailments that can be cured with a simple office visit. In addition, having a primary care doctor whom one goes to for an annual checkup provides a means of early intervention which probably results in that person living a healthier life.

As far as going broke, the more a hospital is forced to treat the uninsured, the quicker they are going to go bankrupt. In the last four years are so, two of the four hospitals in Baton Rouge closed to some extent. One hospital shut down completely and by the end of the month all that will be left at that site will be a concrete slab because our Governor saw fit to privatize the charity hospital system. The other hospital closed it's emergency room because it was losing about $12M a month. About 90% of it's ER patients were poor and without healthcare. As a result, that ER mostly treated illnesses normally treated through primary care office visits.




How do we pay for this utopian ideal? I don't disagree that it would be Great, no one wants to see others go without it but how do we pay for it? And is it right to saddle hard working people with the bills for those who've never lifted a finger to help themselves or their loved ones?
tonygraz Offline
#32 Posted:
Joined: 08-11-2008
Posts: 20,262
I'm sure if they heard TCBY talk they would be strongly tempted to raise a finger.
TMCTLT Offline
#33 Posted:
Joined: 11-22-2007
Posts: 19,733
tonygraz wrote:
I'm sure if they heard TCBY talk they would be strongly tempted to raise a finger.



You really are a jackass, why not try to answer the question ? Because you cannot...Utopian dope
teedubbya Offline
#34 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
Spread risk. The larger the pool the better.
TMCTLT Offline
#35 Posted:
Joined: 11-22-2007
Posts: 19,733
teedubbya wrote:
Spread risk. The larger the pool the better.



Spread risk? Care to expound?
tonygraz Offline
#36 Posted:
Joined: 08-11-2008
Posts: 20,262
TMCTLT wrote:
You really are a jackass, why not try to answer the question ? Because you cannot...Utopian dope


Like you never answer any question with facts. There are many ways of paying for it, but you and obtuse crowd you follow don't want to think or hear about them. Payroll taxes could be raised slightly and a special tax should apply to those who do not pay payroll taxes.

Too
Much
Crying
Too
Little
Taxation
DrafterX Offline
#37 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,555
Raise Taxes..?? OhMyGod
tonygraz Offline
#38 Posted:
Joined: 08-11-2008
Posts: 20,262
In some cases just applying tax to previously excluded wages could go a long way to fix social security as well.
DrafterX Offline
#39 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,555
Think
or we could just stop borrowing from it... Mellow
tonygraz Offline
#40 Posted:
Joined: 08-11-2008
Posts: 20,262
No that's where the real stealing has been.
DrafterX Offline
#41 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,555
I heard SS funds Obama's vacations.... Mellow
TMCTLT Offline
#42 Posted:
Joined: 11-22-2007
Posts: 19,733
tonygraz wrote:
Like you never answer any question with facts. There are many ways of paying for it, but you and obtuse crowd you follow don't want to think or hear about them. Payroll taxes could be raised slightly and a special tax should apply to those who do not pay payroll taxes.

Too
Much
Crying
Too
Little
Taxation



But Mommy......he started it and and, screw you and those like you who want to continually dump the cost of other people poor choices in someone else's lap with More Taxes. Socialist prick
tonygraz Offline
#43 Posted:
Joined: 08-11-2008
Posts: 20,262
Gee, you sound even more stupid when you are angry.
gummy jones Offline
#44 Posted:
Joined: 07-06-2015
Posts: 7,969
tonygraz wrote:
In some cases just applying tax to previously excluded wages could go a long way to fix social security as well.


i think they should start taxing the wages of the unborn to make sure they pay their fair share

not a lot, just a couple dollars hear and there

that will finally make a difference and the poor peoples problems will disappear

nothing is proven worse at promoting accountability and "fixing" poverty than another .gov program

always seem to be just $1 short of finally nipping it in the bud...
teedubbya Offline
#45 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
leave my socialism security alone.
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