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Abrignac Offline
#1 Posted: Wed, Jun 15 2016, 3:53 PM EST
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,329
Firearms per 100 individuals;
US 112.6
Serbia 75.6
Yemen 54.8
Switzerland 45.7
Cyprus 36.4
Uruguay 31.8
Honduras 6.2


Firearms deaths per 100,000;
US 10.54
Serbia 3.49
Switzerland 3.08
Cyprus 1.87
Uruguay 31.8
Honduras 67.8


If the rate of gun ownership had a direct relation on the gun homicide rate; wouldn't the gun related death rate be much higher in Switzerland???

Shouldn't Honduras have a much lower homicide rate???

Why isn't the gun homicide rate in the US over 10,000 based on the Honduras example???
dstieger Offline
#2 Posted: Wed, Jun 15 2016, 4:00 PM EST
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,889
Hondurans have bigger clips and better aim?
dstieger Offline
#3 Posted: Wed, Jun 15 2016, 4:03 PM EST
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,889
I suspect that there just might be another variable or two that could be considered.....correlation as relates or doesn't relate to causation and all that sort of mumbo jumbo
teedubbya Offline
#4 Posted: Wed, Jun 15 2016, 4:03 PM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
dstieger wrote:
I suspect that there just might be another variable or two that could be considered.....correlation as relates or doesn't relate to causation and all that sort of mumbo jumbo



ooooh look at the big brain on brad
dstieger Offline
#5 Posted: Wed, Jun 15 2016, 4:05 PM EST
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,889
what?
DrafterX Offline
#6 Posted: Wed, Jun 15 2016, 4:05 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,564
We should send Hillary to Honduras.. She'd straighten them out... Mellow
teedubbya Offline
#7 Posted: Wed, Jun 15 2016, 4:07 PM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
I heard the hondurans love trump they think he is great and stuff
dstieger Offline
#8 Posted: Wed, Jun 15 2016, 4:08 PM EST
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,889
I guess we could send a buttload of guns to the fine citizens of Honduras and see if they can't get that firearm death rate down a bit
teedubbya Offline
#9 Posted: Wed, Jun 15 2016, 4:11 PM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
I wonder what those rates are in afghanastan and japan?
teedubbya Offline
#10 Posted: Wed, Jun 15 2016, 4:14 PM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
the source would be cool too.... it doesn't seam to line up. did you snopes it?

This is the Honduras Switzerland comparison but it made me laugh because it reminded me of Billy Madison.

"All in all, this meme compares two countries that aren't the least bit similar, then gets wrong nearly all the aspects of those countries it references. As such, it isn't the least bit useful or instructive as a discussion point for debates over gun ownership laws. "
DrafterX Offline
#11 Posted: Wed, Jun 15 2016, 4:20 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,564
I was recently in Honduras and I didn't see anyone get shot... Mellow
Abrignac Offline
#12 Posted: Wed, Jun 15 2016, 4:46 PM EST
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,329
teedubbya wrote:
the source would be cool too.... it doesn't seam to line up. did you snopes it?

This is the Honduras Switzerland comparison but it made me laugh because it reminded me of Billy Madison.

"All in all, this meme compares two countries that aren't the least bit similar, then gets wrong nearly all the aspects of those countries it references. As such, it isn't the least bit useful or instructive as a discussion point for debates over gun ownership laws. "


IIRC, it was UN data. But, like Dave said, it's much more involved than that. I just wanted to set this ship afloat and watch where it sails.
ZRX1200 Offline
#13 Posted: Wed, Jun 15 2016, 5:14 PM EST
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,628
First issue is using an inanimate object as a variable.

Guns aren't the root cause of the problem.
teedubbya Offline
#14 Posted: Wed, Jun 15 2016, 5:15 PM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
Abrignac wrote:
IIRC, it was UN data. But, like Dave said, it's much more involved than that. I just wanted to set this ship afloat and watch where it sails.



it may be university of sydney data
ZRX1200 Offline
#15 Posted: Wed, Jun 15 2016, 5:16 PM EST
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,628
Did you snopes that?
Gene363 Offline
#16 Posted: Wed, Jun 15 2016, 5:50 PM EST
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,844
It looks even better if you subtract the counts from several large democrat controlled cities that have draconian gun control laws.
gummy jones Offline
#17 Posted: Wed, Jun 15 2016, 8:24 PM EST
Joined: 07-06-2015
Posts: 7,969
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE
tonygraz Offline
#18 Posted: Wed, Jun 15 2016, 9:50 PM EST
Joined: 08-11-2008
Posts: 20,288
Back to the OP, the reason is that the Swiss use guns to shoot holes in their cheese rather than to shoot each other.

Guns don't kill people - people with guns kill people.
bob-o Offline
#19 Posted: Wed, Jun 15 2016, 10:05 PM EST
Joined: 01-09-2014
Posts: 32

More than two words, forgive me.

I've heard that listings like this include suicides in their numbers. Am a bit lazy ATM to verify, but it also would have an impact on the story being told.


Jack
tonygraz Offline
#20 Posted: Wed, Jun 15 2016, 10:19 PM EST
Joined: 08-11-2008
Posts: 20,288
You're forgiven, if we doesn't have to call you Johnson.
TMCTLT Offline
#21 Posted: Fri, Jun 17 2016, 6:53 AM EST
Joined: 11-22-2007
Posts: 19,733
tonygraz wrote:
Back to the OP, the reason is that the Swiss use guns to shoot holes in their cheese rather than to shoot each other.

Guns don't kill people - people with guns kill people.




And yet......year in....year out according to National statistics.....hands / feet and fists Kill more people....hmmmm

When do you think Obummer will try for hand / feet national registry?

http://www.naturalnews.com/038687_homicides_hammers_rifles.html
tonygraz Offline
#22 Posted: Fri, Jun 17 2016, 7:39 AM EST
Joined: 08-11-2008
Posts: 20,288
Return of the troll ? The article you refer to is old- and the statistics are even older and deliberately picked to mislead the faint of brainpower. Stats are not all gun deaths, but just those by rifle. It doesn't mention when the assault rifle ban was lifted and probably cherry picks the best years to compare. Tobacco is a much bigger cause of death but some people think minor diseases are much more worrisome and contagious.

Oh, by the way I was joking about the swiss shooting the holes in their cheese.
TMCTLT Offline
#23 Posted: Fri, Jun 17 2016, 7:53 AM EST
Joined: 11-22-2007
Posts: 19,733
tonygraz wrote:
Return of the troll ? The article you refer to is old- and the statistics are even older and deliberately picked to mislead the faint of brainpower. Stats are not all gun deaths, but just those by rifle. It doesn't mention when the assault rifle ban was lifted and probably cherry picks the best years to compare. Tobacco is a much bigger cause of death but some people think minor diseases are much more worrisome and contagious.

Oh, by the way I was joking about the swiss shooting the holes in their cheese.



Nice you start out with the name calling.....NOT Surprising however
Interesting that your " like minded " liberal politicians seem to ONLY want to target AR-15 rifles too isn't it? I mean considering the Muslim Homophobe Terrorist used BOTH a pistol and a rifle, yet OBUMMER only wants more gun control for " militery style rifles " HINT for the uninformed like yourself ( they're only semi automatic ) unlike military weapons which are FULL AUTO.

Got it.....andit was " almost funny "

Let me ask you something, IF OBUMMER and Clintorious were succesful in removing EVERY FIREARM on earth....
will people stop dying in large numbers @ other peoples hands?????
tonygraz Offline
#24 Posted: Fri, Jun 17 2016, 3:33 PM EST
Joined: 08-11-2008
Posts: 20,288
Uninformed - I worked at Colt Firearms and less than a dozen parts were the difference between the M-16 and the AR-15. You could buy the parts through the mail until the Feds started shutting that down.
DrafterX Offline
#25 Posted: Fri, Jun 17 2016, 4:02 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,564
Damn Feds... Mad
Krazeehorse Offline
#26 Posted: Fri, Jun 17 2016, 4:04 PM EST
Joined: 04-09-2010
Posts: 1,958
The Swiss keep all the deaths by teeny multitools on the DL.
DrafterX Offline
#27 Posted: Fri, Jun 17 2016, 4:04 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,564
If someone in da crowd had a full auto that bassard woulda been cut in half before he killed 3 peoples... Mad
Brewha Offline
#28 Posted: Fri, Jun 17 2016, 4:56 PM EST
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,201
Abrignac wrote:
Firearms per 100 individuals;
US 112.6
Serbia 75.6
Yemen 54.8
Switzerland 45.7
Cyprus 36.4
Uruguay 31.8
Honduras 6.2


Firearms deaths per 100,000;
US 10.54
Serbia 3.49
Switzerland 3.08
Cyprus 1.87
Uruguay 31.8
Honduras 67.8


If the rate of gun ownership had a direct relation on the gun homicide rate; wouldn't the gun related death rate be much higher in Switzerland???

Shouldn't Honduras have a much lower homicide rate???

Why isn't the gun homicide rate in the US over 10,000 based on the Honduras example???


This is a really good question. Well crafted and presented.

Fact stacking has long been an effective tool in misrepresentation, and when combined with an easy to digest over simplification of an issue is nothing less than compelling.

Now this is the tasty part; It begs one to conclude that there is not corilation between percapita gun ownership and gun violence. Does that sound right to you? I mean, when it comes to gun deaths, Honduras is just like the US right? Same standard of living, drug cartels, law inforcement.......

No, not so much. Bad comparison - not even close.
But a great example to make a case with.....
teedubbya Offline
#29 Posted: Fri, Jun 17 2016, 5:36 PM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
It also supports more guns wouldn't stop it
ZRX1200 Offline
#30 Posted: Fri, Jun 17 2016, 6:25 PM EST
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,628
Look at the numbers minus gang activity (which accounts for the majority of "mass shootings") and suicide.

Again, you have a higher likelihood of being killed by a hammer, lightning, or a swarm of bees than from an AR15 in a mass shooting.
ZRX1200 Offline
#31 Posted: Fri, Jun 17 2016, 6:28 PM EST
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,628
The commies are thankful that the populace cannot yet retain their right to bloody revolution from a tyrannical government with hammer, lightning, or bees.
tonygraz Offline
#32 Posted: Fri, Jun 17 2016, 10:00 PM EST
Joined: 08-11-2008
Posts: 20,288
Hey, Brewha, at least we're number 1.
Brewha Offline
#33 Posted: Sat, Jun 18 2016, 5:39 PM EST
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,201
ZRX1200 wrote:
Look at the numbers minus gang activity (which accounts for the majority of "mass shootings") and suicide.

Again, you have a higher likelihood of being killed by a hammer, lightning, or a swarm of bees than from an AR15 in a mass shooting.

By that logic, dynamite should be for sale at Walmart.

So let's just have a go at the pretzel logic game:
Dynamite is by and large illegal to buy or possess - an open infringement on our 2nd amendment rights.
More people are kill in anyone day by cars than die in a year by dynamite.
Sence years of statistics show how very, very safe it is why can't we just buy all we want - to protect us from snakes and such?

But back to reality - I think your argument boils down to these are acceptable losses, the mass shootings that is, so what we can all enjoy our very own AR15.
Gene363 Offline
#34 Posted: Sat, Jun 18 2016, 11:44 PM EST
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,844
Brewha wrote:
By that logic, dynamite should be for sale at Walmart.

So let's just have a go at the pretzel logic game:
Dynamite is by and large illegal to buy or possess - an open infringement on our 2nd amendment rights.
More people are kill in anyone day by cars than die in a year by dynamite.
Sence years of statistics show how very, very safe it is why can't we just buy all we want - to protect us from snakes and such?

But back to reality - I think your argument boils down to these are acceptable losses, the mass shootings that is, so what we can all enjoy our very own AR15.


It works for medicine and the airline industry.
TMCTLT Offline
#35 Posted: Sun, Jun 19 2016, 9:53 AM EST
Joined: 11-22-2007
Posts: 19,733
tonygraz wrote:
Uninformed - I worked at Colt Firearms and less than a dozen parts were the difference between the M-16 and the AR-15. You could buy the parts through the mail until the Feds started shutting that down.



Which would be YOU, Gosh there's " ONLY " A DOZEN parts that make them different.....LMMFAO

Some guns don't even have a dozen parts total. And NONE of what you've laid down here mean S H I T in the whole legal gun conversation. Q...Does " Military style " weapon mean it's THE SAME AS what our military use?
A simple yesor NO would suffice






Brewha wrote:
By that logic, dynamite should be for sale at Walmart.

So let's just have a go at the pretzel logic game:
Dynamite is by and large illegal to buy or possess - an open infringement on our 2nd amendment rights.
More people are kill in anyone day by cars than die in a year by dynamite.
Sence years of statistics show how very, very safe it is why can't we just buy all we want - to protect us from snakes and such?

But back to reality - I think your argument boils down to these are acceptable losses, the mass shootings that is, so what we can all enjoy our very own AR15.




And STILL the only ones purchasing it to HARM OTHERS.......would be crazed left leaning liberal minded people who hate everyone who doesn't think " like them "

Pretzel logic.....yes the left likes their " pretzel logic " twist things until it " FITS "
tonygraz Offline
#36 Posted: Sun, Jun 19 2016, 12:13 PM EST
Joined: 08-11-2008
Posts: 20,288
Perhaps it has eluded you, but many of the mass shootings were carried out with AR15 type weapons. How many were carried out with hands and fists (seems to be the same thing to me, but you seem to have bought that there is a difference) ?
Gene363 Offline
#37 Posted: Sun, Jun 19 2016, 12:18 PM EST
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,844

When do we ban pressure cookers and ball bearings?
ZRX1200 Offline
#38 Posted: Sun, Jun 19 2016, 12:22 PM EST
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,628
Where do we have a constitutional right to bear explosives?
Gene363 Offline
#39 Posted: Sun, Jun 19 2016, 12:29 PM EST
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,844
ZRX1200 wrote:
Where do we have a constitutional right to bear explosives?


Explosive, like automatic weapons are already restricted. We need "common sense controls" on weapons of mass destruction, so pressure cookers and ball bearing have got to go.
99cobra2881 Offline
#40 Posted: Sun, Jun 19 2016, 1:09 PM EST
Joined: 11-19-2013
Posts: 2,472
Brewha wrote:
By that logic, dynamite should be for sale at Walmart.

So let's just have a go at the pretzel logic game:
Dynamite is by and large illegal to buy or possess - an open infringement on our 2nd amendment rights.
More people are kill in anyone day by cars than die in a year by dynamite.
Sence years of statistics show how very, very safe it is why can't we just buy all we want - to protect us from snakes and such?

But back to reality - I think your argument boils down to these are acceptable losses, the mass shootings that is, so what we can all enjoy our very own AR15.



The rifle used in the Orlando terrorist attack wasn't even an AR-15. It was a sig sauer mcx.

So the widespread lie that an AR-15 was used in the attack when it wasn't, in and of itself proves that the left wing media and the anti-second amendment politicians that are running with this false pretense of banning the AR-15, a gun that wasn't even used, blatantly shows they have an ignorance of the truth and an agenda to accomplish despite what the facts may be.

It was not an ar-15 and it was a Muslim terrorist but actions are being taken to ban the ar-15?

Insane.

Atleast common sense was more common in the past. If the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor today would we blame the attack on the planes they were flying?
Abrignac Offline
#41 Posted: Sun, Jun 19 2016, 7:46 PM EST
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,329
tonygraz wrote:
Uninformed - I worked at Colt Firearms and less than a dozen parts were the difference between the M-16 and the AR-15. You could buy the parts through the mail until the Feds started shutting that down.


IIRC the only difference real difference between the two is one part, the trigger sear. The one on the M16 would allow single shot and either full auto or 3 round burst depending on the variant. The AR15 sear allows for single shot only. The other differences are cosmetic relating to the lower receiver and the markings stamped on it for FA, burst, or fire on the AR.


That being said it's really irrelevant.

Abrignac Offline
#42 Posted: Sun, Jun 19 2016, 7:49 PM EST
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,329
Brewha wrote:
This is a really good question. Well crafted and presented.

Fact stacking has long been an effective tool in misrepresentation, and when combined with an easy to digest over simplification of an issue is nothing less than compelling.

Now this is the tasty part; It begs one to conclude that there is not corilation between percapita gun ownership and gun violence. Does that sound right to you? I mean, when it comes to gun deaths, Honduras is just like the US right? Same standard of living, drug cartels, law inforcement.......

No, not so much. Bad comparison - not even close.
But a great example to make a case with.....


Actually it's a perfect comparison for my purpose which was to point out that the fact that there are many more factors which contribute to gun related deaths and their cause than simply gun ownership.
sd72 Offline
#43 Posted: Sun, Jun 19 2016, 8:01 PM EST
Joined: 03-09-2011
Posts: 9,600
Isn't one Matt black and the other satin?
tonygraz Offline
#44 Posted: Sun, Jun 19 2016, 10:24 PM EST
Joined: 08-11-2008
Posts: 20,288
Abrignac wrote:
IIRC the only difference real difference between the two is one part, the trigger sear. The one on the M16 would allow single shot and either full auto or 3 round burst depending on the variant. The AR15 sear allows for single shot only. The other differences are cosmetic relating to the lower receiver and the markings stamped on it for FA, burst, or fire on the AR.


That being said it's really irrelevant.



I did say less than 12 parts, but 6 or 8 sounds more like what it really was. The AR-15 was a toned down military rifle that was designed for war.
sd72 Offline
#45 Posted: Sun, Jun 19 2016, 11:03 PM EST
Joined: 03-09-2011
Posts: 9,600
Wasn't the 30-06 bolt action rifle designed for war as well? And sharpened steel before that?and rocks tied to sticks? And sharpened sticks? Really, isn't war been the greatest mother of invention?
99cobra2881 Offline
#46 Posted: Mon, Jun 20 2016, 6:13 AM EST
Joined: 11-19-2013
Posts: 2,472
https://youtu.be/IHKm51XIHuE
Brewha Offline
#47 Posted: Mon, Jun 20 2016, 5:38 PM EST
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,201
TMCTLT wrote:

And STILL the only ones purchasing it to HARM OTHERS.......would be crazed left leaning liberal minded people who hate everyone who doesn't think " like them "

Pretzel logic.....yes the left likes their " pretzel logic " twist things until it " FITS "

Too much coffee?



Not enough bran???
Brewha Offline
#48 Posted: Mon, Jun 20 2016, 5:54 PM EST
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,201
99cobra2881 wrote:
The rifle used in the Orlando terrorist attack wasn't even an AR-15. It was a sig sauer mcx.

So the widespread lie that an AR-15 was used in the attack when it wasn't, in and of itself proves that the left wing media and the anti-second amendment politicians that are running with this false pretense of banning the AR-15, a gun that wasn't even used, blatantly shows they have an ignorance of the truth and an agenda to accomplish despite what the facts may be.

It was not an ar-15 and it was a Muslim terrorist but actions are being taken to ban the ar-15?

Insane.

Atleast common sense was more common in the past. If the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor today would we blame the attack on the planes they were flying?

I think you are also supposed to point out that all guns can kill and there is no difference between an assault rifle and a derringer. They you should ask why them krazy liberbulls ain't banning bubble gum - people choke on that stuff - you know?
Brewha Offline
#49 Posted: Mon, Jun 20 2016, 6:07 PM EST
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,201
Abrignac wrote:
Actually it's a perfect comparison for my purpose which was to point out that the fact that there are many more factors which contribute to gun related deaths and their cause than simply gun ownership.

Ah, yes - subterfuge.

"Guns arn't really dangerious, and most everyone should have access to them - even if they are only to be used as toys."

You really seem to be making the argument that easy access to unreasonably large firepower poses no undue threat. I disagree.
DrafterX Offline
#50 Posted: Mon, Jun 20 2016, 6:31 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,564
Ever wonder why they never came for our pressure cookers. ?? Or outlawed ammonium nitrate..?? Mellow
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