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USS Fitzgerald....
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DrafterX Offline
#1 Posted: Sat, Jun 17 2017, 8:59 AM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,551
Tragic accident and prayers for the missing sailors...but how could this happen..?? Was wondering if Navy ships are piloted in to port...Think
jjanecka Offline
#2 Posted: Sat, Jun 17 2017, 9:38 AM EST
Joined: 12-08-2015
Posts: 4,334
Definitely not what the military needs right now.
teedubbya Offline
#3 Posted: Sat, Jun 17 2017, 1:01 PM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
The great gitchiegoomie?
DrafterX Offline
#4 Posted: Sat, Jun 17 2017, 1:04 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,551
Prolly not a good name for a ship... Mellow
teedubbya Offline
#5 Posted: Sat, Jun 17 2017, 1:04 PM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
Poor Ed.
DrafterX Offline
#6 Posted: Sat, Jun 17 2017, 1:05 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,551
I heard Victor caught the gitchiegoomie... Mellow
teedubbya Offline
#7 Posted: Sat, Jun 17 2017, 1:15 PM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
The legend lives on from the Chippewa on down
Of the big lake they called 'gitche gumee'
The lake, it is said, never gives up her dead
When the skies of November turn gloomy
With a load of iron ore twenty-six thousand tons more
Than the Edmund Fitzgerald weighed empty
That good ship and crew was a bone to be chewed
When the gales of November came early
The ship was the pride of the American side
Coming back from some mill in Wisconsin
As the big freighters go, it was bigger than most
With a crew and good captain well seasoned
Concluding some terms with a couple of steel firms
When they left fully loaded for Cleveland
And later that night when the ship's bell rang
Could it be the north wind they'd been feelin'?
The wind…
Thunder.Gerbil Offline
#8 Posted: Sat, Jun 17 2017, 1:44 PM EST
Joined: 11-02-2006
Posts: 121,359
DrafterX wrote:
Was wondering if Navy ships are piloted in to port...Think


Depends. But you wouldn't have a harbor pilot on board 56 Nm out. Typically they come aboard only a few miles out, if that. This was an costal water collision.
DrafterX Offline
#9 Posted: Sat, Jun 17 2017, 2:04 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,551
Wondered about that.. didn't have that info in the article I read...Mellow
Thunder.Gerbil Offline
#10 Posted: Sat, Jun 17 2017, 2:53 PM EST
Joined: 11-02-2006
Posts: 121,359
Yeah, I can see how articles can be different. I read the BBC article.

And to clarify, 56Nm out is from the port of Yokosuka. They were a few Nm off the nearest shoreline, but that's just coastal operation water. It's not quite restricted and needing a pilot under normal circumstances, but it's heavily congested waters. These are big machines, everything happens in slow motion. Just to give you an idea, I've served on vessels the size of the container ship that hit the Fitzgerald, it would take us a few miles to make a Williamson turn at 10 kts. That's 30+ minutes to come back around on our own track to where we started the manuver. That long, that heavy, we don't stop fast, nor turn that quick. Would take us 3-4 Nm to just to come to an emergency dead stop from full ahead (and that's with the engines running full astern and shaking the ship to pieces the whole time).
DrafterX Offline
#11 Posted: Sat, Jun 17 2017, 3:12 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,551
So you guys hit the Fitzgerald too..?? Huh
MACS Offline
#12 Posted: Sat, Jun 17 2017, 3:12 PM EST
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,779
^^And... because the larger vessels are slower and less maneuverable, they are almost always given right of way. In congested waters like that, they should have been talking to one another from miles away asking for heading and intentions.

"Hey, I see you're headed on (numerical compass point), we're headed (numerical compass point), which will cause us to intersect... what are your plans?" and stuff...
Thunder.Gerbil Offline
#13 Posted: Sat, Jun 17 2017, 4:32 PM EST
Joined: 11-02-2006
Posts: 121,359
Sécurité, sécurité, sécurité...

This was a miscommunication of colossal proportions.

A combatant has every advantage save one, they are faster, more maneuverable and better armed, but no modern combatant short of a carrier can survive a collision with a merchant.

It would be like you trying to take a punch to the face from Sonny Liston.
frankj1 Offline
#14 Posted: Sat, Jun 17 2017, 5:04 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,221
that's stupid. Liston's been dead for years.
teedubbya Offline
#15 Posted: Sat, Jun 17 2017, 5:18 PM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
MACS told me frank looks like he was punched in the face by Sonny Liston
frankj1 Offline
#16 Posted: Sat, Jun 17 2017, 6:04 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,221
he's a big fat liar...or you are.
MACS Offline
#17 Posted: Sat, Jun 17 2017, 6:21 PM EST
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,779
frankj1 wrote:
that's stupid. Liston's been dead for years.


I was gonna ask, "in his prime, or now".

frankj1 wrote:
he's a big fat liar...or you are.


I'll let you decide which. I'm sure you'll choose correctly.
frankj1 Offline
#18 Posted: Sat, Jun 17 2017, 6:40 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,221
tw is a big fat liar
DrafterX Offline
#19 Posted: Sat, Jun 17 2017, 7:33 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,551
OhMyGod
teedubbya Offline
#20 Posted: Sat, Jun 17 2017, 8:43 PM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
OhMyGod
Whistlebritches Offline
#21 Posted: Sat, Jun 17 2017, 9:24 PM EST
Joined: 04-23-2006
Posts: 22,128
I spent a lot of time on 85' and unders ............our policy was to always give way regardless of right of way.When I was on 400'rs,Lots of communication between us and merchants.I know that area off Yoko pretty well,heavily congested and merchants do what merchants do.....stay on course and make their scheduled port visits.
DrafterX Offline
#22 Posted: Sun, Jun 18 2017, 8:08 AM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,551
Sounds like they found the seven missing.. just not in the condition we hoped for...Pray
teedubbya Offline
#23 Posted: Sun, Jun 18 2017, 8:10 AM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
Prayers for the fallen. Bad news.
Speyside Offline
#24 Posted: Sun, Jun 18 2017, 8:12 AM EST
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
Prayers as well.
frankj1 Offline
#25 Posted: Sun, Jun 18 2017, 9:23 AM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,221
This is truly horrible, and I apologize for joking above
teedubbya Offline
#26 Posted: Sun, Jun 18 2017, 9:24 AM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
Your joke didn't hurt anything.
frankj1 Offline
#27 Posted: Sun, Jun 18 2017, 9:28 AM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,221
teedubbya wrote:
Your joke didn't hurt anything.

I know, but wrong thread
teedubbya Offline
#28 Posted: Sun, Jun 18 2017, 9:33 AM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
Naaah. No PC here remember. We all hate pc except when we don't.

Psst. I deleted my joke lol.
teedubbya Offline
#29 Posted: Sun, Jun 18 2017, 9:34 AM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
Do you want me to be brave and undelete it?
thurson Offline
#30 Posted: Sun, Jun 18 2017, 9:45 AM EST
Joined: 06-26-2004
Posts: 3,919
frankj1 wrote:
that's stupid. Liston's been dead for years.



LOL LOL LOL


Tasteless...but funny. That's how we roll.
fog
Whistlebritches Offline
#31 Posted: Sun, Jun 18 2017, 12:21 PM EST
Joined: 04-23-2006
Posts: 22,128
frankj1 wrote:
This is truly horrible, and I apologize for joking above


Frank we all know where your heart is...........
Speyside Offline
#32 Posted: Sun, Jun 18 2017, 12:27 PM EST
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
Frank, no apology needed.
frankj1 Offline
#33 Posted: Sun, Jun 18 2017, 2:06 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,221
I'm fine.
This really is heartbreaking though.
Bur Offline
#34 Posted: Mon, Jun 19 2017, 3:16 PM EST
Joined: 07-31-2012
Posts: 5,638
Only ship I was "ship's company" on (went EOD after one ship-driver tour and was a passenger from then on out) was 83,000 tons and we'd operate off the coast of SOCAL. Merchants would leave LA/Long Beach, go on "Iron Mike" (autopilot) once in the shipping channel and go to minimal awake crewing. Crossing that shipping channel meant dodging container ships/tankers doing 14 knots in a straight line for as long as they could to keep moving/make money.

Will be interesting to hear what happened-almost always some sort of mechanical or communications issue compounded by human error on one or both bridges.

And my condolences to the crew and families of the FITZGERALD and my brother Navy Divers who had to do a search job that turned into remains recovery. Didn't go on any of those, fortunately.

Hoo-Yah Deep Sea!
delta1 Offline
#35 Posted: Mon, Jun 19 2017, 3:57 PM EST
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,788
Deepest condolences to the families of the sailors who were killed in this collision. News report I heard this morning said the cargo ship had just completed a U-turn when the two ships collided. Investigators are questioning the crew of the cargo ship...
DrafterX Offline
#36 Posted: Tue, Jun 20 2017, 7:33 AM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,551
Think
Bur Offline
#37 Posted: Tue, Jun 20 2017, 10:36 AM EST
Joined: 07-31-2012
Posts: 5,638
My experience makes me think they were given a later berthing time than anticipated and "came about" to do a circle or set up for an anchorage.

At least I'm hoping that. Still poor seamanship to do that and plow into another ship.
DrafterX Offline
#38 Posted: Tue, Jun 20 2017, 11:16 AM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,551
Shouldn't there have been a dude in da crows nest with binoculars and a bell or somethin..??
Bur Offline
#39 Posted: Tue, Jun 20 2017, 12:19 PM EST
Joined: 07-31-2012
Posts: 5,638
What I've read makes me thing the USS FITZGERALD's "OH **** A METER AND ALARM" sounded but not in time to do much. Even small ships like destroyers are limited by fluid dynamics and momentum. When you were trying to "pass astern" and all of a sudden they're coming back at you....
DrafterX Offline
#40 Posted: Tue, Jun 20 2017, 1:59 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,551
well, we shoulda just blown it in half and drove thru it if you ask me... Mellow
dstieger Offline
#41 Posted: Tue, Jun 20 2017, 2:10 PM EST
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,889
Bur wrote:
Even small ships like destroyers are limited by fluid dynamics and momentum. ..


Twin reversible pitch propellers virtually made the physics obsolete a few years ago.... emergency backing today is something that is sorta magical to old squids like me that spent time in steam plants
MACS Offline
#42 Posted: Tue, Jun 20 2017, 2:20 PM EST
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,779
As I said, they should have been talking ship to ship. The Naval Vessel had a quartermaster, an Officer of the Deck, and radar operators in the Combat Information Center that should have been yelling "Oh, shit, oh shit, oh shit!" long before impact.
dstieger Offline
#43 Posted: Tue, Jun 20 2017, 2:25 PM EST
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,889
Agreed....whether that container ship turned or reversed...or whatever it might have done...will not excuse the crew of the Fitzgerald much...if at all...the characterization in some news reports that the Fitzgerald is some sort of victim that got rammed ....almost sounds silly....I don't care how extraordinarily negligent the commercial ship may have acted...there is no way in hell that the destroyer should have been in position to get skewered in the open ocean...
MACS Offline
#44 Posted: Tue, Jun 20 2017, 2:26 PM EST
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,779
^^^YUP.
namadio Offline
#45 Posted: Tue, Jun 20 2017, 2:33 PM EST
Joined: 11-24-2014
Posts: 1,621
https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/06/internet-of-ships-tells-tale-of-uss-fitzgerald-tragedy-or-half-of-it/
Stinkdyr Offline
#46 Posted: Tue, Jun 20 2017, 2:40 PM EST
Joined: 06-16-2009
Posts: 9,948
teedubbya wrote:
MACS told me frank looks like he was punched in the face by Sonny Liston


Donkey-punched?
Did this involve a Cleveland Steamer?

Think
teedubbya Offline
#47 Posted: Tue, Jun 20 2017, 2:46 PM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
Just a Pittsburgh pancake
DrafterX Offline
#48 Posted: Tue, Jun 20 2017, 4:09 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,551
Is that the 3rd floor balcony dump thing..?? Huh
Abrignac Offline
#49 Posted: Tue, Jun 20 2017, 6:02 PM EST
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,278
MACS wrote:
As I said, they should have been talking ship to ship. The Naval Vessel had a quartermaster, an Officer of the Deck, and radar operators in the Combat Information Center that should have been yelling "Oh, shit, oh shit, oh shit!" long before impact.



Not to mention a non-rate on the flying bridge looking through the big eyes, the helmsman and the BMOW making deck rounds.

It's going to be real interesting when this finally sorted out.
frankj1 Offline
#50 Posted: Tue, Jun 20 2017, 10:33 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,221
teedubbya wrote:
Just a Pittsburgh pancake

I give up. No one wants classy chit here.
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