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Migrant Caravan
tailgater Offline
#1 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
Now that the Migrant Caravan has arrived at the border, what should we do?

Forget that they've been coached to claim "asylum".
Are they more deserving than the tens of thousands that are waiting to gain entry via legal methods?
Should we simply have no borders?
What happens to a mother of 3 young children if she is able to cross into the US?
She can't be expected to work with kids to take care of.
She is unlikely to have a work skill or speak English.
Many claim that undocumented immigrants are not eligible for welfare, but they don't exist solely on charitable contributions. Or if they do, why do those charities only exist within our borders?
What is Mexico's role in all of this?

The human factor is the #1 reason that a wall is needed.
Not to prevent entry, but to deter others from making this a daily ritual.
We let today's migrants in under false asylum then that would become the Spanish word du jour.

If America had no poverty. No homeless veterans. No starving children of our own. Then I'd be more likely to be in favor of tending to these huddled masses.

We're not there yet.
So what do we do with these state-sponsored caravans?
MACS Offline
#2 Posted:
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,776
We should tell them to go the f*** back from where they came. The End.

OR better yet... tell Mexico to deal with them. They're currently Mexico's problem.
bgz Offline
#3 Posted:
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
^this
DrMaddVibe Offline
#4 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,431
How's that wall looking now Mexico?

Deal with the trash thats in YOUR yard!
danmdevries Offline
#5 Posted:
Joined: 02-11-2014
Posts: 17,372
I really do feel bad for them. I'd hate to be in their shoes. An attempt to escape a terrible situation in hopes for a better life, literally walk away from everything.

dstieger Offline
#6 Posted:
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,889

I'm all over the place on this topic...and I don't wish it were black and white so much as I wish many on every side of the issues could see some of the gray. Any and all public immigration discussions have gone so far off the rails, I am not sure we can get it back to reasonable discussion. Worst for me, is that logic has completely left the building. I'm fairly understanding and even compassionate at times. I remember when we admired people who gave up everything to move and try to make a better life elsewhere -- when we championed people willing to go to a strange place ....and wanting to work and find opportunity for themselves and their families.
But, I cannot for the life of me listen to people who advocate for and mindlessly justify illegal immigration...it doesn't compute. I believe that we NEED increased LEGAL immigration if we have any hope for economic growth over 1% in the next decade. But the idea that opposing ILLEGAL immigration is racist is no longer a fringe notion. We've lost the thread and I don't believe we can get it back....and any and all attempts will be branded not only as racist, but as the last gasp rantings of lunatic whites who long for the past when we reigned. I am generally optimistic, but I don't see an honest, respectful, national conversation on immigration happening in my lifetime. I do think we missed a big opportunity when we took a pass on pressing for English as a single, national language - required in all official dealings, documents, etc. I don't think that's racist. I think that its important for communication, and yes - even assimilation. I think its ok to expect immigrants to conform to some (most?) things American, including language. In which Spanish speaking country would you be fully accepted if you refused to speak Spanish and expected accommodations be made so you wouldn't have to bother?

I don't believe that immigrants are a drain on the economy- or that most, even many, will be sucking from the welfare tit. But, I do believe that the Feds have the right/responsibility to control who comes into the country -- and if you come in outside of legal channels, you should expect to be deported. Pretty cut and dried to me.

As to the asylum questions and coaching...red herring...I don't care about the coaching -- if someone is really persecuted and meets the 'requirements' and legally requests asylum, they should be considered for it. Doesn't mean that they displace those trying to get here legally via other visa means, I don't think.
tailgater Offline
#7 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
Regarding asylum:
There are sympathetic lawyers waiting at the border.
they're ready to over burden our immigration and legal system with lawsuits.
These lawyers don't know these would-be (illegal) immigrants. But they have their legal papers already prepared. Which is odd. It's almost as if the lawyers were going to coach the unfortunates on what to claim.
A cynical person would suggest as much.



It will be interesting to see how this unfolds.

I think it's going to do nothing more than bolster Trump's plea to build a wall.
dstieger Offline
#8 Posted:
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,889
tailgater wrote:
Regarding asylum:
There are sympathetic lawyers waiting at the border.
they're ready to over burden our immigration and legal system with lawsuits.
These lawyers don't know these would-be (illegal) immigrants. But they have their legal papers already prepared. Which is odd. It's almost as if the lawyers were going to coach the unfortunates on what to claim.
A cynical person would suggest as much.



It will be interesting to see how this unfolds.

I think it's going to do nothing more than bolster Trump's plea to build a wall.


Maybe we should be promoting extreme vetting of lawyers
tailgater Offline
#9 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
dstieger wrote:
Maybe we should be promoting extreme vetting of lawyers


Who would do the vetting?

dstieger Offline
#10 Posted:
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,889
UNICOR?
frankj1 Offline
#11 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,221
rfenster!
deadeyedick Offline
#12 Posted:
Joined: 03-13-2003
Posts: 17,089
I guess if I were in their shoes I would be trying the same thing. What is another 100-200? Problem is where do we draw the (Obama) line in the sand? We already have 11-12 million illegals and if you don't think they are a drain on our welfare, legal, school systems you are sadly mistaken.

We badly need control of who gets in and who is allowed to stay. Those already in line should have first priority except in extreme cases where we need their abilities.

The notion that if you step across the fence into this country and drop a baby makes it a citizen is absurd and contrary to the laws of almost every other nation.
ZRX1200 Offline
#13 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,604
More like 20 million.
Krazeehorse Offline
#14 Posted:
Joined: 04-09-2010
Posts: 1,958
deadeyedick wrote:
I guess if I were in their shoes I would be trying the same thing. What is another 100-200? Problem is where do we draw the (Obama) line in the sand? We already have 11-12 million illegals and if you don't think they are a drain on our welfare, legal, school systems you are sadly mistaken.

We badly need control of who gets in and who is allowed to stay. Those already in line should have first priority except in extreme cases where we need their abilities.

The notion that if you step across the fence into this country and drop a baby makes it a citizen is absurd and contrary to the laws of almost every other nation.


Amen on the anchor babies. I can't wrap my head around the thought behind that law.
MACS Offline
#15 Posted:
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,776
Krazeehorse wrote:
Amen on the anchor babies. I can't wrap my head around the thought behind that law.


+2
ecr Offline
#16 Posted:
Joined: 06-22-2008
Posts: 1,081
dstieger wrote:
I'm all over the place on this topic...and I don't wish it were black and white so much as I wish many on every side of the issues could see some of the gray. Any and all public immigration discussions have gone so far off the rails, I am not sure we can get it back to reasonable discussion. Worst for me, is that logic has completely left the building. I'm fairly understanding and even compassionate at times. I remember when we admired people who gave up everything to move and try to make a better life elsewhere -- when we championed people willing to go to a strange place ....and wanting to work and find opportunity for themselves and their families.
But, I cannot for the life of me listen to people who advocate for and mindlessly justify illegal immigration...it doesn't compute. I believe that we NEED increased LEGAL immigration if we have any hope for economic growth over 1% in the next decade. But the idea that opposing ILLEGAL immigration is racist is no longer a fringe notion. We've lost the thread and I don't believe we can get it back....and any and all attempts will be branded not only as racist, but as the last gasp rantings of lunatic whites who long for the past when we reigned. I am generally optimistic, but I don't see an honest, respectful, national conversation on immigration happening in my lifetime. I do think we missed a big opportunity when we took a pass on pressing for English as a single, national language - required in all official dealings, documents, etc. I don't think that's racist. I think that its important for communication, and yes - even assimilation. I think its ok to expect immigrants to conform to some (most?) things American, including language. In which Spanish speaking country would you be fully accepted if you refused to speak Spanish and expected accommodations be made so you wouldn't have to bother?

I don't believe that immigrants are a drain on the economy- or that most, even many, will be sucking from the welfare tit. But, I do believe that the Feds have the right/responsibility to control who comes into the country -- and if you come in outside of legal channels, you should expect to be deported. Pretty cut and dried to me.

As to the asylum questions and coaching...red herring...I don't care about the coaching -- if someone is really persecuted and meets the 'requirements' and legally requests asylum, they should be considered for it. Doesn't mean that they displace those trying to get here legally via other visa means, I don't think.



I'm also understanding and compassionate dstieger but our citizens and our warriors must come first………

Here’s my gray,

75% of the American people are living pay check to pay check

22 Vets commit suicide every day

49,933 homeless veterans which represents 8.6 percent of the total homeless population.

The average age of a homeless person is 9 years old.

More than 3.5 million people are homeless every night, and 1.35 million are children.

More than 30 percent of homeless families have an open case for child abuse or neglect.

Of the 31.1 million people living in poverty, more than 12 million are children.

60.000 opioids deaths each year

Did I mention we are 20 trillion in debt

Sorry if I sound so GRAY and gloomy.
dstieger Offline
#17 Posted:
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,889
and a Lambo Aventador was clocked at 217 MPH
Gene363 Offline
#18 Posted:
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,815
MACS wrote:
We should tell them to go the f*** back from where they came. The End.

OR better yet... tell Mexico to deal with them. They're currently Mexico's problem.



Exactly, just another example of the fact that Mexico is not our best friend.
rfenst Offline
#19 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,323
frankj1 wrote:
rfenster!

Frank!!!
GhettoNigFabulous Offline
#20 Posted:
Joined: 02-19-2018
Posts: 199
Send the pieces of human garbage back to where they came from. This is outrageous. These ungrateful turds just think they can run across our borders while waving FOREIGN flags, what a disgrace.
deadeyedick Offline
#21 Posted:
Joined: 03-13-2003
Posts: 17,089
ecr wrote:
I'm also understanding and compassionate dstieger but our citizens and our warriors must come first………

Here’s my gray,

75% of the American people are living pay check to pay check

22 Vets commit suicide every day

49,933 homeless veterans which represents 8.6 percent of the total homeless population.

The average age of a homeless person is 9 years old.

More than 3.5 million people are homeless every night, and 1.35 million are children.

More than 30 percent of homeless families have an open case for child abuse or neglect.

Of the 31.1 million people living in poverty, more than 12 million are children.

60.000 opioids deaths each year

Did I mention we are 20 trillion in debt

Sorry if I sound so GRAY and gloomy.



This old chingadera has some valid points. =d>
DrafterX Offline
#22 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,551
Of course they could have applied for assylum at the US embassy in their own countries... Mellow
frankj1 Offline
#23 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,221
lines were too long?
ecr Offline
#24 Posted:
Joined: 06-22-2008
Posts: 1,081
deadeyedick wrote:
This old chingadera has some valid points. Applause



Hi Rick, have you gone up north for the summer yet? Working on a AZHC HERF at my place in the next few weeks.
delta1 Offline
#25 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,788
frankj1 wrote:
lines were too long?


ummm....no, it was the uniforms with guns...

Funny how the number of Mexicans entering the US illegally has declined sharply...maybe it has something to do with how US-Mexico economic treaties in the past few decades have helped to bolster the Mexican economy which now has enough jobs to keep its citizens at home...US and Mexico both benefit from joint economic efforts.

Might a similar strategy of spreading democracy, liberty and freedom through economic improvement of our other Central and South American neighbors work, too?
jjanecka Offline
#26 Posted:
Joined: 12-08-2015
Posts: 4,334
Anyone able bodied enough to leave their country is fit enough to grab a rifle and take their country back.
delta1 Offline
#27 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,788
possibly, but the progress made between the US and Mexico proved that progress doesn't have to be at the end of a gun...
deadeyedick Offline
#28 Posted:
Joined: 03-13-2003
Posts: 17,089
delta1 wrote:
ummm....no, it was the uniforms with guns...

Funny how the number of Mexicans entering the US illegally has declined sharply...maybe it has something to do with how US-Mexico economic treaties in the past few decades have helped to bolster the Mexican economy which now has enough jobs to keep its citizens at home...US and Mexico both benefit from joint economic efforts.

Might a similar strategy of spreading democracy, liberty and freedom through economic improvement of our other Central and South American neighbors work, too?


I'm thinking it has more to do with the current POTUS position on illegal immigration compared to Obama and others looking the other way for so many years.
bgz Offline
#29 Posted:
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
I agree with Rick. They were flooding over during Obama, Trump made it hard enough to deter most people from trying.

When Obama was president, you used to always here about illegals causing trouble... I think the ones that do get in are keeping their heads down a little more now because they know the green trucks aren't playing catch and release anymore.
jjanecka Offline
#30 Posted:
Joined: 12-08-2015
Posts: 4,334
Obama did deport more illegals than any president in United States history though. One of the few facts that dems don't brag about.
bgz Offline
#31 Posted:
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
Hey, don't be giving Obama credit for Sheriff Joe's hard work.
DrafterX Offline
#32 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,551
Obama shoulda deported half his family tho.. Mellow
delta1 Offline
#33 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,788
bgz wrote:
I agree with Rick. They were flooding over during Obama, Trump made it hard enough to deter most people from trying.

When Obama was president, you used to always here about illegals causing trouble... I think the ones that do get in are keeping their heads down a little more now because they know the green trucks aren't playing catch and release anymore.


The decline of numbers of illegal Mexican immigrants started in 2009, and in 2015 -2016, the year before Trump's term began, the percentage of illegals from Mexico among all illegal immigrants was the smallest in decades - only about 50%.
Here's an interesting article about illegal immigrants in the US:

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/04/27/5-facts-about-illegal-immigration-in-the-u-s/



Trump's claim that "the Mexican rapists and murderers have been pouring in" is another of his grand myths, designed to invoke fear and loathing, in order to gain support for his Wall. Not sure why he insists on building a wall since few believe one will be an effective barrier to illegal crossings. My theory is Trump wants to cement for all time his name in American history. He dreams it'll be like the US version of the Great Wall of China, standing into perpetuity, with his name stamped on it, lasting far longer than his name-branded hotels, casinos and golf courses...
Mrs. dpnewell Offline
#34 Posted:
Joined: 08-23-2014
Posts: 1,373
^Heck with the wall. All we really need is concertina wire, land mines, and border guards armed with M60s, M32s and an occasional Ma Deuce. A whole lot cheaper then a wall, and more effective too.

David (dpnewell)


Note: The above post was done "tongue in check" for the facetious impaired.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#35 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,431
delta1 wrote:
The decline of numbers of illegal Mexican immigrants started in 2009, and in 2015 -2016, the year before Trump's term began, the percentage of illegals from Mexico among all illegal immigrants was the smallest in decades - only about 50%.
Here's an interesting article about illegal immigrants in the US:

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/04/27/5-facts-about-illegal-immigration-in-the-u-s/



Trump's claim that "the Mexican rapists and murderers have been pouring in" is another of his grand myths, designed to invoke fear and loathing, in order to gain support for his Wall. Not sure why he insists on building a wall since few believe one will be an effective barrier to illegal crossings. My theory is Trump wants to cement for all time his name in American history. He dreams it'll be like the US version of the Great Wall of China, standing into perpetuity, with his name stamped on it, lasting far longer than his name-branded hotels, casinos and golf courses...



Doesn't matter to me...10% or 1000%. Illegal is illegal. It doesn't mean you get to stay, it should mean you get absolutely NOTHING too! Instead we surrender citizenship in this great nation that was created by the blood of patriots. Patriots that all came from somewhere else but even they understood that citizenship mattered! Eduction, Healthcare, Tax Revenue...all systems bankrupted by their criminal endeavors. I blame the weak spineless politicians for not standing up and doing the right thing. They didn't want to do any heavy lifting and just wanted to kick the can down the road. The damage is done. Look at each and every border state and their budgets. For laughs go back 30 years too. Teachers, nurses and sheriffs all over this nation were crying out about it. As for the numbers dwindling, I think they fear his word is his bond and he will deport them. For them its all been a game. Come over here use someone's identity...get paid...get caught? Go back and then cross over again. Lather, Rinse and repeat. Sickening.

As for Trump...he's fulfilling a campaign promise that garnered the most applause and favorability for him. EVERYONE knows what they're doing is wrong. Building a real wall isn't even feasible. That's why for years...maybe more than a decade I've cried out for "Landmines, Gun Turrets and Predator Drones". This was W's failure. On 9/12 he could've set all of it in motion...across ALL of our borders. Locked it down. Instead we're further down the road.
deadeyedick Offline
#36 Posted:
Joined: 03-13-2003
Posts: 17,089
[quote=delta1]The decline of numbers of illegal Mexican immigrants started in 2009, and in 2015 -2016, the year before Trump's term began, the percentage of illegals from Mexico among all illegal immigrants was the smallest in decades - only about 50%.
Here's an interesting article about illegal immigrants in the US:



Al, I'm pretty sure even you recognize that the decline at that time corresponded with the recession and lack of jobs awaiting those who wanted to come. Temporary situation.
DrafterX Offline
#37 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,551
They just didn't record half of them per Obama rules and stuff.. I heard they all got shotguns too... Mellow
delta1 Offline
#38 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,788
You guys should read the article...it isn't fake news...
DrafterX Offline
#39 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,551
Well, you can't report what they don't record... Mellow
frankj1 Offline
#40 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,221
deadeyedick wrote:
[quote=delta1]The decline of numbers of illegal Mexican immigrants started in 2009, and in 2015 -2016, the year before Trump's term began, the percentage of illegals from Mexico among all illegal immigrants was the smallest in decades - only about 50%.
Here's an interesting article about illegal immigrants in the US:



Al, I'm pretty sure even you recognize that the decline at that time corresponded with the recession and lack of jobs awaiting those who wanted to come. Temporary situation.

but the recovery began around 2009
deadeyedick Offline
#41 Posted:
Joined: 03-13-2003
Posts: 17,089
frankj1 wrote:
but the recovery began around 2009


It took years of slow recovery to produce a low unemployment that is a major pull for those with entry level skills. The unemployment rate (the fudged numbers the feds provide that does not include those who gave up looking ) were all above 8% from '09-'12.
frankj1 Offline
#42 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,221
deadeyedick wrote:
It took years of slow recovery to produce a low unemployment that is a major pull for those with entry level skills. The unemployment rate (the fudged numbers the feds provide that does not include those who gave up looking ) were all above 8% from '09-'12.

I meant to add it seemed you actually supported Al's point with your post...I did not really think that was your intent.

Nothing to do with Obama support, but it would be miraculous for any President to pull off a rapid turnaround after 8 years of decline, yet the impetus only grew over the next four...alll the while the facts about immigration in that time period still did not support what many claim.

To clarify, I support legal immigration, it is clearly defined and should be the way if one wishes to stay.
DrafterX Offline
#43 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,551
Illegal immigration may have slowed due to fed regs against our corps forcing companies to move down south.. they didn't have to come here to work.. we delivered jobs to them... Mellow
frankj1 Offline
#44 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,221
DrafterX wrote:
Illegal immigration may have slowed due to fed regs against our corps forcing companies to move down south.. they didn't have to come here to work.. we delivered jobs to them... Mellow

cool, so we don't need a 300 bil wall!
dstieger Offline
#45 Posted:
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,889
DrafterX wrote:
Illegal immigration may have slowed due to fed regs against our corps forcing companies to move down south.. they didn't have to come here to work.. we delivered jobs to them... Mellow



what regs? the ones saying not to hire illegals?

probably not....I forgot that we don't bother to enforce those...why is it that the illegals are the enemy and not the Americans who employ them? If there wasn't any work for them, we probably wouldn't need a wall, either
DrMaddVibe Offline
#46 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,431
frankj1 wrote:
but the recovery began around 2009



Oh puhleeze.

The US economy was stagnant then and the Kenyan King's reign and their "revised numbers" proved the economy was in utter shambles. While he was busy bowing and giving money away to "shovel ready" and "green initiatives" (costing the taxpayer even MORE!) and not pursuing Wall Street for their thievery the economy was at best anemic. There was no "recovery".

I suppose using that logic you like to go to a friend's party where you paid for the band, the booze and the gifts and claim you had a good time??? That's what the American taxpayer did. Most of those corporations that got bailouts...still haven't paid them off!
DrMaddVibe Offline
#47 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,431
dstieger wrote:
what regs? the ones saying not to hire illegals?

probably not....I forgot that we don't bother to enforce those...why is it that the illegals are the enemy and not the Americans who employ them? If there wasn't any work for them, we probably wouldn't need a wall, either


Should impose a million dollar fine to any company...ANY company...that uses them.

However; our politicians can't be bothered to craft a single page legislation stating that.
RMAN4443 Offline
#48 Posted:
Joined: 09-29-2016
Posts: 7,683
DrMaddVibe wrote:
Should impose a million dollar fine to any company...ANY company...that uses them.

However; our politicians can't be bothered to craft a single page legislation stating that.

Politicians will never sign legislation.......where would they find landscapers, nannies, or household staff without that pool of cheap to employ illegals? Not talking
frankj1 Offline
#49 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,221
DrMaddVibe wrote:
Oh puhleeze.

The US economy was stagnant then and the Kenyan King's reign and their "revised numbers" proved the economy was in utter shambles. While he was busy bowing and giving money away to "shovel ready" and "green initiatives" (costing the taxpayer even MORE!) and not pursuing Wall Street for their thievery the economy was at best anemic. There was no "recovery".

I suppose using that logic you like to go to a friend's party where you paid for the band, the booze and the gifts and claim you had a good time??? That's what the American taxpayer did. Most of those corporations that got bailouts...still haven't paid them off!

tough for a rabid partisan to admit, but though the economy did not "recover" in that one, first year (an impossibility btw) it indisputably was vastly improved by all measurements when he left office...and is about the same now too.

E. Warren, that unpopular Senator, spearheaded the Wall Street/financing regulations that are now being totally gutted under your guy. Straining, not draining the swamp.

Giant bailouts under Obama were merely a continuation of Bush's policies. Both take blame to nonpartisan viewers.
frankj1 Offline
#50 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,221
RMAN4443 wrote:
Politicians will never sign legislation.......where would they find landscapers, nannies, or household staff without that pool of cheap to employ illegals? Not talking

nailed it, bruddah.
Cape Cod vacation spots are short again this Summer.
What jobs were the immigrants stealing from us again?
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