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Cigar industry consolidation
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CamoRoon Offline
#1 Posted: Tue, Mar 21 2023, 6:40 AM EST
Joined: 03-04-2015
Posts: 153
Have you noticed how in the last decade or so companies like INBEV have been buying up the beer brands? There are no really large American owned brewers anymore. Well take a look at the cigar industry and it is very definitely the same. Scandinavian Tobacco Group, the host of the very forum we are on, is one of the industry powerhouses involved in the consolidation. They are big time into cigars and pipe tobacco. They own General Cigar and recently purchased Alec Bradley. When a few companies own the manufacturing, wholesale distribution and retail sales of most of the cigars on the market it must begin to have some impact. Does it bring prices down? Possibly. Does it open the possibility of a dilution of uniqueness? Possibly. Does it mean that you are probably seeing a cigar made at one factory being sold under multiple names and prices under other brand names? Possibly. I am unsure if this consolidation is a good thing or a bad thing. It should lead to better prices, but does it? With too much consolidation you end up with monopolies which by definition eliminate competition and leads to higher prices. The first link below shows the largest cigar companies but some on the list are owned by others on the list. The second link shows a very large sale of assets. Do you folks see this consolidation as good or bad?




https://www.zippia.com/advice/largest-cigar-companies/
https://www.cigaraficionado.com/article/imperial-completes-1-44-billion-sale-of-premium-cigar-business
deadeyedick Offline
#2 Posted: Tue, Mar 21 2023, 7:10 AM EST
Joined: 03-13-2003
Posts: 17,089
Generally I see it as a good thing for the manufacturers and a bad thing for consumers. In many cases the consolidation can bring needed funds to smaller companies but it just as often leads to corporate control on all aspects of the operation including innovation. Almost every consolidation in the beverage and tobacco industries have stated that the operation of the companies being purchased will not change the management, quality or uniqueness of the products but that often is just the PR line.

Case in point:

InBev bought out one of my local fast growing craft beer breweries. They were able to bring clout with hops growers to get a steady supply of certain HTG hops that the craft guys were only able to obtain sporadically. Recent word is the corp now insists that certain hop growers will not be used due to price negotiations.
burning_sticks Offline
#3 Posted: Tue, Mar 21 2023, 8:38 AM EST
Joined: 08-17-2020
Posts: 152
In the long term. I've rarely seen anything good for the end user, come from consolidating.
ZRX1200 Offline
#4 Posted: Tue, Mar 21 2023, 8:42 AM EST
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,606
It’s been nothing but bad in the beer industry, in the tobacco industry I dunno. I only smoke like 4-6 brands now anyways….but I would say it’s a more unique industry as they face many more legal hurdles to exist than alcohol. So there’s the capacity to legally fight that’s necessary.

Also not a fan in general of what’s happened with this and whiskey.
Palama Offline
#5 Posted: Tue, Mar 21 2023, 12:54 PM EST
Joined: 02-05-2013
Posts: 23,688
ZRX1200 wrote:
It’s been nothing but bad in the beer industry, in the tobacco industry I dunno. I only smoke like 4-6 brands now anyways….but I would say it’s a more unique industry as they face many more legal hurdles to exist than alcohol. So there’s the capacity to legally fight that’s necessary.

Also not a fan in general of what’s happened with this and whiskey.


No pun intended? Think
Stogie1020 Offline
#6 Posted: Tue, Mar 21 2023, 1:06 PM EST
Joined: 12-19-2019
Posts: 5,335
Does anyone really get started as an independant in the cigar busines with the intention of getting bought up by a big conglomerate? I feel like there is more of a rogue spirit amongst startup cigar makers that almost makes that a "last resort" option if the brand is good but other factors intervene. With the sucess of so many independant manufacturers (Padron, Tat, AF, MF, Illusione, etc.) there really is a strong roadmap to sucess withOUT being acquired by General/Altadis.
izonfire Offline
#7 Posted: Wed, Mar 22 2023, 12:52 AM EST
Joined: 12-09-2013
Posts: 8,647
Stogie1020 wrote:
Does anyone really get started as an independant in the cigar busines with the intention of getting bought up by a big conglomerate? .......................................................more stuff to read...............................................................

Think that was Alec Bradley's intention all along...
ZRX1200 Offline
#8 Posted: Wed, Mar 22 2023, 9:37 AM EST
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,606
Yeah back when he made cigars and wasn’t “building a brand”.
Nessundorma68 Offline
#9 Posted: Wed, Mar 22 2023, 4:47 PM EST
Joined: 05-21-2022
Posts: 2
One thing about cigars I know is that most of my cigar smoking friends are like me in that they burn the sticks that bring them the most pleasure. I only buy a name when the cigar that goes with the name is a smoke that is well made (taste, burn, build quality etc ) With beer they are very few brands that all of us have access to so our choices are limited to a degree. With cigars there are an endless number almost and all of us ( with the possible exception of buyers in states run by libtards) have nearly the access to purchase them all. We are all searching for that perfect cigar that we don’t need to get a second on the house to buy. Can’t tell you how many cigars in the last 30 years I have fallen in love with only to quit them when for any number of reasons quality and flavor dropped off and the price went up. Beer is mostly a supermarket or liquor store item and compared to cigars the choice is limited. If you live in NY state ( you have my sympathy) because they are working on a 95% excise tax last I heard or California (you REALLY have my sympathy) where they are working on passing a law that will not allow anyone born after 2007 to purchase cigars there EVER even if they live to be 95 then you have a problem. But for the rest of the sane World I’m guessing there will mostly always be a choice of fine cigars available at reasonable prices. We all have a price point we almost never crash through and because labor in the industry is relatively cheap I believe there will always be people with a dream who love cigars and will work to make a better one. Alan Rubin (As I recall the person who started Alec Bradley and named it after his sons) refused to give up when his love for cigars and tobacco and the process put him $60,000 in debt. I still have three boxes of Alec Bradley triangular cigars ( red, green and orange box depending on blend) that I bought back in 2005. They were good cigars pressed in a way I had never seen. Innovative enough that a lot of prople wanted to try them. There are several AB blends I like and as long as they continue with the quality and taste I won’t change but I continue to enjoy trying the new kids on the block as well as the Fuentes which never go on sale. If I only had the chiice in beer I have in cigars. Anybody remember when Chateau Fuentes came ten in a box and you could buy a box in your shopping mall cigar store for $27.50? That was pre cigar boom some 30 years ago. Still have half a box of those and the current ones are just as good. Gotta love cigars and the guys that take the risk to make not only a name for themselves in the industry. but their dream cigar
ZRX1200 Offline
#10 Posted: Wed, Mar 22 2023, 5:51 PM EST
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,606
Cliff notes please.
Stogie1020 Offline
#11 Posted: Wed, Mar 22 2023, 6:10 PM EST
Joined: 12-19-2019
Posts: 5,335
ZRX1200 wrote:
Cliff notes please.

How about just use the "enter" key!
frankj1 Offline
#12 Posted: Wed, Mar 22 2023, 7:16 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,221
Stogie1020 wrote:
How about just use the "enter" key!

it's busted
LeeBot Offline
#13 Posted: Wed, Mar 22 2023, 7:49 PM EST
Joined: 07-08-2020
Posts: 2,004
I read it out of spite.
CamoRoon Offline
#14 Posted: Fri, Mar 24 2023, 6:29 AM EST
Joined: 03-04-2015
Posts: 153
While there are many cigar brands and many, many, many blends, there are not nearly so may places actually rolling cigars. We acknowledge the blenders but the blender is often a paid employee of the business man who owns the brand. The blenders and all the anonymous people who actually do the growing, processing, rolling and packaging are who make the cigar industry. I am sure that for most of them it is merely a job. Yes, a job one can take pride in doing good but still just a job. Those people's efforts are the same to make a dog turd as an Opus X. Alan Rubin put up the money and took the risk that he could contract with cigar manufacturers like Raices Cubana and develop a product that could be profitable.Alec Bradley, like Rocky Patel, has more blends than you can shake a stick at. Many years ago, during the boom, a very big name in the cigar industry told me and friends that in may cases one just went to a cigar factory who then allowed them to taste a variety of blends they had already developed. At that point the buyer put in an order and those cigars were then fitted with bands and boxes for that customer. The next customer may buy the same blend and have his band and box applied. How much actual uniqueness do you really think is out there on the mid and low priced cigar range under that scenario? A great deal of the cigar industry is merely a purveyor of a commodity. Many years ago my job required me to communicate with a manufacturing plant that made household appliances. That plant made appliances for so darn many brand names. I have a friend who was a truck driver. He told me he picked up a load of paint at a Dupont facility. The number of brands coming off the loading dock amazed him. I have to believe that out their in CIGARLAND we can find the exact same cigar with a $2 price tag and a $5 price tag. I once read that a major name in the industry said the worst thing that happened to cigar smokers and the best thing hat happened to cigar company owners was the start of Cigar Afficianado.
Stogie1020 Offline
#15 Posted: Fri, Mar 24 2023, 10:55 AM EST
Joined: 12-19-2019
Posts: 5,335
It's on the right side of the keyboard, just above the shift key... Even on a mobile device keyboard, it's there.
frankj1 Offline
#16 Posted: Fri, Mar 24 2023, 11:37 AM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,221
Stogie1020 wrote:
It's on the right side of the keyboard, just above the shift key... Even on a mobile device keyboard, it's there.


op title should be Paragraph Consolidation
Stogie1020 Offline
#17 Posted: Fri, Mar 24 2023, 11:40 AM EST
Joined: 12-19-2019
Posts: 5,335
LOL
DrMaddVibe Offline
#18 Posted: Fri, Mar 24 2023, 11:49 AM EST
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,431
CamoRoon wrote:
I once read that a major name in the industry said the worst thing that happened to cigar smokers and the best thing hat happened to cigar company owners was the start of Cigar Afficianado.


You get what you pay for!
CamoRoon Offline
#19 Posted: Fri, Mar 24 2023, 12:00 PM EST
Joined: 03-04-2015
Posts: 153
DrMaddVibe wrote:


You get what you pay for!


EXPERIENCE = What you get when you don't get what you paid for. Old saying "While some folks get less than what they paid for, nobody ever got more than what they paid for." Note to self: The enter button is required to deal with the short attention spans brought about by the pandemic lockdowns and YouTube Shorts.
Stogie1020 Offline
#20 Posted: Fri, Mar 24 2023, 12:14 PM EST
Joined: 12-19-2019
Posts: 5,335
CamoRoon wrote:
EXPERIENCE = What you get when you don't get what you paid for. Old saying "While some folks get less than what they paid for, nobody ever got more than what they paid for." Note to self: The enter button is required to deal with the short attention spans brought about by the pandemic lockdowns and YouTube Shorts.

It's there for a reason...Frying pan
DrMaddVibe Offline
#21 Posted: Fri, Mar 24 2023, 4:01 PM EST
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,431
CamoRoon wrote:
EXPERIENCE = What you get when you don't get what you paid for. Old saying "While some folks get less than what they paid for, nobody ever got more than what they paid for." Note to self: The enter button is required to deal with the short attention spans brought about by the pandemic lockdowns and YouTube Shorts.



Experience doesn't purchase ad space in a rag for better ratings on their product.
CamoRoon Offline
#22 Posted: Fri, Mar 24 2023, 4:25 PM EST
Joined: 03-04-2015
Posts: 153
DrMaddVibe wrote:
Experience doesn't purchase ad space in a rag for better ratings on their product.


Sorry, I thought you were implying that paying more guarantees a better cigar. Mea Culpa. While that topic is here, how is that Cohiba Macassar sell for 15% of the msrp? That sounds like a trap for folks who do think mo cost means mo better.
frankj1 Offline
#23 Posted: Fri, Mar 24 2023, 9:21 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,221
there is no such thing as MSRP in the real world where things are bought and sold.

However, there are stories told by sellers of amazing discounts off that imaginary numbah.

Many buyers feel good believing they actually got a discount, albeit from a made up starting point.

I once told the manager at the car dealership (he couldn't believe I wasn't moved by the discount) that he might as well say the MSRP was $1,000,000 but he could save me $976,000...making the car only $24,000.


edit: pretty sure it was at that moment he realized he had been believing his own story.
CamoRoon Offline
#24 Posted: Tue, Mar 28 2023, 7:37 AM EST
Joined: 03-04-2015
Posts: 153
frankj1 wrote:
there is no such thing as MSRP in the real world where things are bought and sold. .


Isn't it a bit like the term Super Premium? Super Premium to who and compared to what? When we start throwing around accolades too easily, they really have no meaning or value. It's like the word AWESOME. It was overused so much that it now means nothing. If a person who never swears, suddenly swears, you can suppose that they are angered. If a person who swears all the time swears again, it really means nothing. Think MO BETTER. It is only exceeded by MO BESTEST.
Abrignac Offline
#25 Posted: Tue, Mar 28 2023, 3:34 PM EST
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,278
Does anyone have a clue as to the actual topic of this thread?
Jakethesnake86 Offline
#26 Posted: Tue, Mar 28 2023, 4:00 PM EST
Joined: 12-29-2020
Posts: 4,137
Trying to herd cats
Sunoverbeach Offline
#27 Posted: Tue, Mar 28 2023, 5:44 PM EST
Joined: 08-11-2017
Posts: 14,665
I believe the topic is that I need to swear more so people will take me seriously
JGKAMIN Offline
#28 Posted: Tue, Mar 28 2023, 5:53 PM EST
Joined: 05-08-2011
Posts: 1,403
CamoRoon wrote:
Isn't it a bit like the term Super Premium? Super Premium to who and compared to what? When we start throwing around accolades too easily, they really have no meaning or value. It's like the word AWESOME. It was overused so much that it now means nothing. If a person who never swears, suddenly swears, you can suppose that they are angered. If a person who swears all the time swears again, it really means nothing. Think MO BETTER. It is only exceeded by MO BESTEST.

Yes, but nobody has risen to the level of “Ultra Premium” like Gurkha…so good it’s only enjoyed smoking, but also provides pleasure in other areas, even in the Oval Office. Herfing

Quote:
GROWING THE GURKHA BRAND
Not having a tobacco farm or factory to call his own, Kaizad met with Charlie Torano and partnered with the Torano company to create the first proper cigar release. Met with critical acclaim, the release drove Kaizad further into the world of Premium, igniting his passion into a raging fire.

Kaizad became obsessed with creating the perfect cigar, launching him into the world of super-premium cigars. In fact, his cigars became so “super-premium”, that he would go on to create the most expensive cigar ever created, His Majesty’s Reserve Cigar. But this wasn’t enough for Kaizad, he wanted to create a spectacular cigar that the average cigar smoker could afford and enjoy.

The first person he talked to was Charlie Torano (perhaps you’ve heard of him?) and Torano cigars agreed to roll Gurkha’s first ever cigars. After this momentous occasion in the history of Gurkha cigars, a brand was born so wonderful that it even made its way to the White House in the 1990s, which will forever be part of Oral Oval Office history.
With a new mission in mind, a bevy of savvy tobacconists to partner with, and his savvy marketing in hand, Kaizad went on to become one of the biggest names in premium cigars, a name that would find its way into the headlines!
It was during the Clinton administration, when the Lewinsky scandal broke, that sources reported a Gurkha cigar being the one used in the Oval Office scandal. However, Gurkha, and other cigar manufacturers, made it clear that they did not want to be associated with the scandal, and managed to quash the hype, removing their names from the headlines. But one thing is clear, President Clinton is just one of many world leaders that have preferred the Gurkha premium cigar.

Since the very beginning, Kaizad has followed a formula to create his cigars; use only the rarest and finest aged tobacco leaves, source them from around the world, take time to perfect each blend, and ensure that they present with a multitude of luxurious and unique flavors. Of course, Kaizad’s background in marketing has led them to create artistic packaging, and themes that affect every aspect of the cigar and the way they are presented..
Known as the 'Rolls Royce' of cigars, Gurkha cigars have become a leader in the world of premium cigars.
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