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Since the Pledge
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usahog Offline
#1 Posted: Mon, Feb 10 2003, 7:11 PM EST
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
Since the Pledge of Allegiance and The Lord's Prayer
are not allowed in most public schools anymore because the word "God" is mentioned....
a kid in Arizona wrote the attached

NEW School prayer.
I liked it....

Now I sit me down in school
Where praying is against the rule
For this great nation under God
Finds mention of Him very odd.
If Scripture now the class recites,

It violates the Bill of Rights.
And anytime my head I bow
Becomes a Federal matter now.

Our hair can be purple, orange or green,
That's no offense; it's a freedom scene.
The law is specific, the law is precise.
Prayers spoken aloud are a serious vice.

For praying in a public hall
Might offend someone with no faith at all.
In silence alone we must meditate,
God's name is prohibited by the state.

We're allowed to cuss and dress like freaks,
And pierce our noses, tongues and cheeks.
They've outlawed guns, but FIRST the Bible.
To quote the Good Book makes me liable.

We can elect a pregnant Senior Queen,
And the 'unwed daddy,' our Senior King.
It's "inappropriate" to teach right from wrong,
We're taught that such "judgments" do not belong.

We can get our condoms and birth controls,
Study witchcraft, vampires and totem poles.
But the Ten Commandments are not allowed,
No word of God must reach this crowd.

It's scary here I must confess,
When chaos reigns the school's a mess.

So, Lord, this silent plea I make:
Should I be shot; My soul please take!
Amen

If you aren't ashamed to do this,
please pass this on.

Jesus said,
" If you are ashamed of me,"
I will be ashamed of you before my Father."

I'm Not ashamed. Passing this on . .

Enjoy
Hog
74142.jpg
octowings Offline
#2 Posted: Tue, Feb 11 2003, 8:56 AM EST
Joined: 10-22-2002
Posts: 390
Why is our judicial system so F'd up?

I'm not a holly-roller, but I do consider myself a christian.

Isn't taking away the right to say The Pledge of Allegiance and The Lord's Prayer taking away the Right of Free Speech?

Question:

What do you think of flag burning?

I believe that anyone who does it is an a$$hole, but they do have the right to do it. Now, if I see anyone do it I'd knock them the F out!

I hope I didn't make any enemies with what I have written, but it is a subject of debate...octo
Spiny Norman Offline
#3 Posted: Tue, Feb 11 2003, 10:28 AM EST
Joined: 09-04-2002
Posts: 899
So should the prayer in schools ban be rescinded, (not likely), would it be open to children of all faiths?
Skatty2hotty Offline
#4 Posted: Tue, Feb 11 2003, 10:41 AM EST
Joined: 05-29-2001
Posts: 288
I myself am a devout athiest, however, I myself am not against the pledge of alligence being spoken and spoken loud. If you're uncomfortable saying God, then leave it out. The pledge of alligence shouldn't be left out because a few people are afraid to hear the word God.
Mr.Mean Offline
#5 Posted: Tue, Feb 11 2003, 11:51 AM EST
Joined: 05-16-2001
Posts: 3,025
Do athiest go to funerals?
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#6 Posted: Tue, Feb 11 2003, 1:23 PM EST
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
octowings

is it ok if i say kaddish after the pledge?
Spiny Norman Offline
#7 Posted: Tue, Feb 11 2003, 1:38 PM EST
Joined: 09-04-2002
Posts: 899
Mr. Mean,

Are they serving food afterwards?
Mr.Mean Offline
#8 Posted: Tue, Feb 11 2003, 2:11 PM EST
Joined: 05-16-2001
Posts: 3,025
That's what I'm trying to find out. It's a question that was asked once and it stuck with me.
E-Chick Offline
#9 Posted: Tue, Feb 11 2003, 2:48 PM EST
Joined: 06-15-2002
Posts: 4,877
They go to their own...
octowings Offline
#10 Posted: Tue, Feb 11 2003, 2:52 PM EST
Joined: 10-22-2002
Posts: 390
Rick,

Say whatever you want, it's a free country...octo
octowings Offline
#11 Posted: Tue, Feb 11 2003, 2:57 PM EST
Joined: 10-22-2002
Posts: 390
Just don't take too much time. We all gotta learn.

Any more prayers?...octo
Tobasco Offline
#12 Posted: Tue, Feb 11 2003, 5:30 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2003
Posts: 2,809
Nice post hog!

Mag
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#13 Posted: Wed, Feb 12 2003, 1:00 AM EST
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
octowings

do you know what kaddish is?
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#14 Posted: Wed, Feb 12 2003, 1:04 AM EST
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
old jewish man laying on his death bed. his wife asks him "is there anything you want, anything i can get you?

the old dying man says "if i could just taste your chopped liver one more time i could die happy."









his wife says "no darling, you know that's for the guests for after the funeral."
octowings Offline
#15 Posted: Wed, Feb 12 2003, 4:00 AM EST
Joined: 10-22-2002
Posts: 390
funny man...funny man...octo
Spiny Norman Offline
#16 Posted: Wed, Feb 12 2003, 10:12 AM EST
Joined: 09-04-2002
Posts: 899
Hog,
The question still stands, which is,

Should the prayer in schools ban be rescinded, (not likely), would it be open to children of all faiths?

-Spiny
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#17 Posted: Wed, Feb 12 2003, 1:19 PM EST
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
Spiny Norman

what about kids that are not indoctrinated with religeon..

my younest when he was about 8 came home from school looking under the tables and beds because some imbecilic teacher told him the devil is watching you.

she stopped her religious teaching after i went to the school and raised hell.

schools are no place for religion.

old saying, "give me your children until they are 6, and i will own them for life."

you want to teach kids religion, teach it at home, or in your church, but stop screwing up the other young minds before they decide for themselves. prayers are perfectly alright for those that wish to pray. do it before and after shool hours.

is it necessary to pray in school? how about at the grocery store? is it necessary to pray when you are disturbing other people.

are you sure you are not praying to show everyone how religious and wonderful you are.

when you pray for something, do you ever hear the answer "no".

do you pray to the same "god" for someone to heal from an illnes given by the same "god". what's with that.

i pose a question:

can "god" give himself a cold that he can't cure?

Spiny Norman Offline
#18 Posted: Wed, Feb 12 2003, 1:38 PM EST
Joined: 09-04-2002
Posts: 899
I agree with you RICK. I have no problem with anyone praying to the god/gods of their choice, just don't think school is the place. What that teacher told your child was dead wrong and I hope he/she was reprimanded for it.
Mr.Mean Offline
#19 Posted: Wed, Feb 12 2003, 1:41 PM EST
Joined: 05-16-2001
Posts: 3,025
"are you sure you are not praying to show everyone how religious and wonderful you are"

I think there is more of this going around that people care to admit.
rookie139 Offline
#20 Posted: Wed, Feb 12 2003, 5:47 PM EST
Joined: 03-02-2000
Posts: 2,149
I agree with Skatty...I am also a devout atheist and I have no problem with the word "God" in the Pledge of Allegiance....I do believe that having a minute to reflect on current events, say a silent prayer, etc is fine...It's your minute, you should be able to do whatever you want as long as you don't infringe on others..Religion and public schools should not be combined because it infringes on people's individual rights but if you want to pray to yourself, so be it..Nothing wrong with that at all..and Yes Ed, I do go to funerals...LOL
rookie139 Offline
#21 Posted: Wed, Feb 12 2003, 5:50 PM EST
Joined: 03-02-2000
Posts: 2,149
When I'm at a funeral or wedding or whatever and there is a group prayer, I simply look downward and think about various things in my life, etc...I don't close my eyes because I'm not ashamed for whom I ma or what I believe (or don't believe) in
usahog Offline
#22 Posted: Thu, Feb 13 2003, 6:03 AM EST
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
Hog,
The question still stands, which is,

Should the prayer in schools ban be rescinded, (not likely), would it be open to children of all faiths?

Spiny, there are many States who have recended it already.. I am not sure as to what the statues to it pertains per State...but because it is allowed does not mean that children of other faith's have to pertisipate (sp) in it... but just because 1 would be offended it should be removed from all??? come on this does take things Out of the Envelope...
it is just like your Cigar smoking.. it Offends some people... So you have to smoke outside... a few of the Brothers here can attest to this... we were smoking Cigars in a Bar here in SPI just before the LOLH 1 a few years back... everybody was sharing cigars smoking BS'ing with waiteress and bar keep... they even gave out Cigars to others in the place... pretty soon we were all asked to leave because the Smoke was Offending some others... thats totally Wrong.... if a person goes into a bar there's going to be smoke.. Knowingly...and pryor to all this it was ok with the Establishment... the Prayer in School is simular to this same incident...it was already established as a guideline for many generations here in America...but because of so many other differnt Ethnic Groups it is Obolished to appease them... America was based on Religion... and it just keeps being eroded away... just like our Rights...

As Lincoln Said
"At what point shall we expect the approach of danger?
By what means shall we fortify against it? Shall we expect some transatlantic military giant, to step the Ocean, and crush us at a blow? Never! All the armies of Europe, Asia and Africa combined, with all the treasure on earth . . . could not by force, take a drink from the Ohio, or make a track on the Blue Ridge, in a trail of a thousand years . . . . If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen, we must live through all time, or die by suicide."
-Abraham Lincoln, 1838

Hog
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#23 Posted: Thu, Feb 13 2003, 9:10 AM EST
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
usahog

"America was based on Religion."

where in the world did you ever get that idea. america was "based" on not paying taxes to england, but rather keeping the money here for the use of the "people" here. "remember no taxation without representation"

at that time of course the definition of "people" was white, male, land owners, and protestant. almost like it is now.

the religion issue was raised because the "people" did not want to have their religion decided by the state, ie, church of england.

the founding fathers never dreamed there would be catholics, jews, muslims, buddhaists (is that a word?), and all sorts of what to them would have been heretics.

don't get the idea, that the founding fathers had any grand ideas of what "democracy" would be about. they formed a republic "A political order in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who are entitled to vote for officers and representatives responsible to them."

those entitled to vote were the "people" (see above definition.) they were organizing to save their personal asses.
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#24 Posted: Thu, Feb 13 2003, 9:21 AM EST
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
usahog

"America was based on Religion."

where in the world did you ever get that idea. america was "based" on not paying taxes to england, but rather keeping the money here for the use of the "people" here. "remember no taxation without representation"

at that time of course the definition of "people" was white, male, land owners, and protestant. almost like it is now.

the religion issue was raised because the "people" did not want to have their religion decided by the state, ie, church of england.

the founding fathers never dreamed there would be catholics, jews, muslims, buddhaists (is that a word?), and all sorts of what to them would have be heretics. they burned "witches" alive in the name of religious freedom for them selves.

i'm glad they got together or i would speak with an english accent and would not be able to understand myself. (when i watch a movie with those dumb ass cockney accents, i turn on the captions so i'll understand what they are talking about.

i used to like the idea that the government stayed out of my life except for providing services i pay for. i didn't want the government to use any of my money to go to vietnam and i don't want the government to use any of my money to go to vietnam 2.

don't get the idea, that the founding fathers had any grand ideas of what "democracy" would be about. they formed a republic "A political order in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who are entitled to vote for officers and representatives responsible to them."

those entitled to vote were the "people" (see above definition.) they were organizing to save their personal asses.
Spiny Norman Offline
#25 Posted: Thu, Feb 13 2003, 3:22 PM EST
Joined: 09-04-2002
Posts: 899
usaHog,

Actually what was passed was "a monent of silence" in Oklahoma and Ohio. All other legislation for prayer in schools failed. Some states authorized publicly posting phrases like "In God we trust" and "God bless America" in government buildings. Those are Georgia, Louisiana, Michigan, Missouri, South Carolina, South Dakota, Utah, and Virginia.
Having a moment of silence would require the child to participate by being silent and still weather they were activly praying or not. I do a lot of volunteer work with kids at my daughters school. (about 150 hours a year) and I can assure you that children that age are easily influanced by their teachers and their peers. There is much truth in the quote that Rick had posted earlier, "Give me your children until they are 6, and i will own them for life." This is precisly why I and many others are opposed to prayer in schools.

On the analogy with cigar smoking in restaurants. We all have a choice to enter or not that establishment. Children have no choice on wether or not to attend school. It's required by law.

Back to the poem. I can only assume that the type of prayer in school that the author is interested in is "Judeo Christian" prayer as he/she mentions the bible, the ten commandment and Jesus. Where does this leave the other 24% of the population who are not christian. So let's say that all can pray in their own fashion. Well not all religon's pray as the christians do. The Buddhist child would be burning incense and chanting his mantra while the muslim child would be on the floor praying to mecca. That's just two examples. Imagine the chaos in a room full of 3rd graders.

I am not against the pledge of alligence but I can certainly see where others would be. The Jahova's witnesses I believe see it as a form of idolitry. Call them what you want but they are devout in their beliefs.

When I was a kid, I would meet at a friends house down the street and we would walk to school together. Just before his family split up to go to their jobs or schools, they would kneel in a circle on the living room floor, hold hands and pray. I participated because it would have been extremly uncomfortable not to. This isn't something my parents would do or would even have approved of had they known.

I think families should pray together. In their churches and in their homes but lets let the schools do what they were set up to do and that is educate our kids to think for themselves, be tolerant of others, and become better citizens. Lord knows we could use more of that.
-Spiny
tailgater Offline
#26 Posted: Thu, Feb 13 2003, 7:28 PM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
"Pledge of allegence"
To what?
To the Flag, which represents this Country.
Offended? Tough.
A public school in America should be able to Pledge to America.
Prayer is another issue, and obviously a moment of silence is the best discretion.
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