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At war against Satan?
jdrabinski Offline
#1 Posted:
Joined: 08-16-2002
Posts: 794
Where does Bush find these crazies? This makes our country look bad...a real embarrassment.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/10/16/rumsfeld.boykin.ap/index.html

John
Cigarick Offline
#2 Posted:
Joined: 07-28-2002
Posts: 3,078
Okay... why do you think they want us all dead?
Tobasco Offline
#3 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2003
Posts: 2,809

Huh, you are ambarrassed? Well, I'm not. CNN is left wing at nature, but I will still comment.

Being allies with Israel, and having nearly 3/4 of the population believe in some Christain religion. They are hateful to us because if Christianity.

We sure arent going to change, and obviously they arent going to stop hating us, anytime in the near future. Yea, they are sort of a satanic region. Except for Israel.

I dont mind the statements at all. We need to be firm with these middle eastern savages. And I'm not speaking of the normal population. I've heard that in Iraq, things are going much better than MOST media report, in every city except Bagdad.

Mag
sketcha Offline
#4 Posted:
Joined: 03-26-2003
Posts: 3,238
I do hope that we are above this kind of remark, but don't they call US "The Great Satan?" Isn't turnabout fair play?

I do believe it to be true that our Judeo-Christian rooting is largely responsible for their animosity toward us. We're also paying for "The Crusades."
sketcha Offline
#5 Posted:
Joined: 03-26-2003
Posts: 3,238
And probably Tikrit, Mag.
sketcha Offline
#6 Posted:
Joined: 03-26-2003
Posts: 3,238
jd,

Every study that I've seen on the Koran has shown it to be a much more violence inspiring book than the Judeo-Christian Bible. After all, wasn't Muhammad a warrior king that ruled with an iron fist? Didn't he inspire his followers to do the same if not more?

Now I'm not saying that Muslims in general are "Satanic," but I believe Jesus of Nazarath was a wee bit more peace loving than Muhammad. That doesn't mean that all Christians live as their messiah would have wanted, but when Muslims use violence in the name of Allah they are FOLLOWING Muhammad's law.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#7 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,554
I don't see why you find this important. You don't believe in God! So now you're saying that there's a Satan? Get your facts straight.

Some "big white dude with a beard(confused with Santa Claus!?!)vs. a red guy that has horns sticking on his head with a pitchfork, but hey...he's got that cool "666" tattoo working for him in an all out war for your soul!

If you'd spend any amount of time actually reflecting on thought instead of "throwing things at the wall to see if they stick", you'd see where their own holy book, the Koran speaks out against christianity and people that aren't swayed to the islamic faith, but you didn't do that! Promises of virgins and a higher place in heaven await those that take up this "jihad"! Instead you like to poke fun at their beliefs because they don't jive with your non-belief.

As far as making anyone look bad...you're leading THAT charge.
jdrabinski Offline
#8 Posted:
Joined: 08-16-2002
Posts: 794
GWB himself said that this is not a war of religions. I'm with him on this one.

You can't write this off as CNN 'liberalism.' They quote directly. Are you disputing the quotation? Not even Rumsfeld was doing that.

I find all the rhetoric about 'which one is a violent religon' very amusing. Christianity, in the U.S. accounts of these 'differences,' always comes out as the 'peace loving religion.' Then we drop bombs and slaughter innocent civilians. Crusades, colonialism, slavery, genocide of Native Americans...the list of violence in the name of and justified by Christianity is long and nauseating. I don't see the big difference.

I agree that Jesus was a man of peace, forgiveness, and non-violence. But I haven't seen much of this from American Christians. Have you? What I see from most Christians in this country is a lot of violence and hatred: toward homosexuals, foreigners, immigrants, blacks from white Christians, Muslims in the past few years, Jews historically, and so on. I know there are good things too: hospitals, soup kitchens, and so on. But those good things (which I value and commend believers, especially Catholics...who comprise most of these examples, in my experience) do not blot out the violence in history and the contemporary world.

My point is that no religion has a corner on madness and violence. So to pit the Goldy against Satan is not only inflammatory and embarrassing rhetoric, it is factually and historically misleading and inaccurate.

I care about this issue because I am an American, just like all of you who hate me (a Christian value?), and I am represented on the world stage by my government...whether I agree with that govt or not. This guy should be fired, simply put. His statements are counter-productive and, to my mind, exhibit an unstable mental state.

John
DrMaddVibe Offline
#9 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,554
"I care about this issue because I am an American, just like all of you who hate me (a Christian value?), and I am represented on the world stage by my government...whether I agree with that govt or not. This guy should be fired, simply put. His statements are counter-productive and, to my mind, exhibit an unstable mental state."

My sentiments EXACTLY. Think about THAT the next time you espouse how great Marx was!

HockeyDad Offline
#10 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,192
"What is this, the Spanish Inquisition?"

John,

It is really quite simple. Most religions think theirs is the only right one. Most religions will try to convert non-believers. Some religions think you're better off dead if you don't convert. Some religions will assist non-believers in achieving the goal of being better off dead. Some religions have matured past the days of holy wars, some have not.

You have cited examples that you have attributed to Christianity that are 100 years or older. Did you happen to catch the Malaysian Prime Minister's speech yesterday at the Organization of the Islamic Conference?

Here are some exerpts in case you missed it:

"We need guns and rockets, bombs and warplanes, tanks and warships for our defense. But because we are discouraged from learning of science and mathematics as giving us no merit for the afterlife, today we have no capacity to produce our own weapons for our defense. We have to buy our weapons from our detractors and enemies. We are actually very strong. 1.3 billion people cannot be simply wiped out. The Europeans killed 6 million Jews out of 12 million, but today the Jews rule the world by proxy. They get others to fight and die for them. For well over half a century we have fought over Palestine. What have we achieved? Nothing. We are worse off than before. If we had paused to think, then we could have devised a plan, a strategy that can win us final victory. 1.3 billion Muslims cannot be defeated by a few million Jews. They survived 2,000 years of pogroms not by hitting back but by thinking. They invented socialism, communism, human rights and democracy so that persecuting them would appear to be wrong, so that they can enjoy equal rights with others."

Statements of condemnation have already come from the US, Israel, Germany, Australia, and the European Union is working on one. Where is your outrage and statement of condemnation? Are Jewish lives worth less than Bolivian lives? Are you calling for the Malaysian Prime Minister to be fired?

Perhaps a statement of condemnation against all religions is in order. The downside is that then you're alienated from all of them.
tarheel4lyf Offline
#11 Posted:
Joined: 09-23-2002
Posts: 2,543
DMV- This is why we can't get along in this forum. John posted a link, just sparking up a little discussion, and you go and throw statements from another different thread into it. Let's try to take things one thread at a time. Make your remarks about whoever they are about in the thread that sparked your feelings, and move on to the next thread as a new, fresh start.


JMO,

JFK
DrMaddVibe Offline
#12 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,554
If you can't see how what I posted was relevant, then I can't help you.
65gtoman Offline
#13 Posted:
Joined: 06-12-2003
Posts: 858
Where does it say that one must give up his religious beliefs when in the military?
He also said this in his own church.

Also when one must go into battle, one prays to their god and asks for strength to defeat and opposing sides god/views. I KNOW I BEEN THERE!


Some will never know what war is all about, the thinking that goes through ones mind, and I hope you never need to know.

I remember a young man, who didn’t believe in any god back in the war, the first night he spent in a hole in a jungle with shells shooting over his head, he started to believe. That young man was me.

sketcha Offline
#14 Posted:
Joined: 03-26-2003
Posts: 3,238
As a German U-Boat Commander once put it...

(paraphrase)
"I was an atheist. Anyone who thinks he is an atheist should spend some time in a submarine 500' underwater waiting to see if the depth charges you heard splashing above you are going to make their mark."

It's easy to be an atheist when you have a cushy life in good ol' peace-time USA.
65gtoman Offline
#15 Posted:
Joined: 06-12-2003
Posts: 858
Also that (crazy) as you so kindly put it, has a name and rank:

Army Lt. Gen. William G. Boykin

Decorated and twice-wounded veteran of covert military operations. former commander and 13-year veteran of the Army's top secret Delta Force. Now he is deputy undersecretary of Defense for intelligence.

Maybe some of you seen the movie black hawk down? The movie was about him and his men, he was wounded AGAIN in 1993 defending your freedom.


HE IS A WAR HERO, NOT JUST SOME CRAZY






tailgater Offline
#16 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
John,
You ignore the subtle differences between our attacks and theirs.

When is the last time the United States has staged a war over Religious Beliefs? I believe that would be the Revolutionary war, and religion was only one issue.

The current situation in Iraq, where you claim we "drop bombs and slaughter innocent lives" is Not based on religious differences. Rather, it is an ATTEMPT to prevent future attacks on our Nation.
You may not agree with it (that's your right), but it is indeed intended to be a proactive mission, completely devoid of religious implication.

On the other hand, we were attacked on our soil for mainly Religious reasons. Or at least religion was used as justification for their actions.

So why, once again, the condemnation of America?
This is NOT the Christians vs the Muslims. At least not in our eyes.
Maybe you have a different perspective?
jdrabinski Offline
#17 Posted:
Joined: 08-16-2002
Posts: 794
Tailgater, read what I said above. I agree with GWB that this is not a religious war. In fact, I am outraged and embarrassed by this jackass...that's why I posted the link.

I condemn my country because the current leadership is an absolute embarassment. Extremist foreign policy has led to a lot of unnecessary death and destruction. We've been lied to about 'imminent threats' and weapons of mass destruction. Tax breaks for the wealthy have tanked the economy. No-bid contracts given to friends of the administration. And so on. There is so much to condemn, very little to compliment. Tell me what I should be proud of with this administration?

Maybe Bush Jr. is Satan and I am at war with him...I'll have to think about 'ol Mr. Pitchfork tonight.

John
usahog Offline
#18 Posted:
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
jdrabinski Give me the Facts to the Bull**** you are spewing out of your Yapper!!!!!

we lost what 3600 in just 1 hour or a little over that... but thats in the past???
I've given you FACTS on all the BS Lies your spewing.. now show me your facts to what you are saying about this Administration... and another thing what you have Writen here above is an absolute slap in the Face to Military Men and Women... I must be a Satan because my AFSC is WEAPONS and I've been working and training others for the past 18 yrs to Protect these United States... but what I'm reading from your post in your Eye's I'm working and training to kill Inosent People... I asked you in Many Posts where I showed you the facts... and you sly away from them and open up another BS link to Liberal Bias BS News!!!

I just talked to two guy's down at Scott AFB who were completing their Physicals because they've been called up Out of Retirment to do another stent because America Needs them they both said... their in their 40's but both were smiling and looking forward to their adventures... Military Folks are a Different Bread and Some ain't... those are the ones who weed out early!!!!!!!

Stop Kicking on the US of A!!!!!!

Hog

65gtoman Offline
#19 Posted:
Joined: 06-12-2003
Posts: 858
"I condemn my country because the current leadership is an absolute embarassment"

Those are the words of a true JACKASS you don’t have a shred of respect for this man. You have no respect for your country. You have no respect. You are an embarrassment to your country.


usahog Offline
#20 Posted:
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
"I condemn my country because the current leadership" Well you don't like it Pack your **** and head East!!!

"is an absolute embarassment." see above reply!!!

"Extremist foreign policy has led to a lot of unnecessary death and destruction." Not on American Soil since WE (American Military Fighting Men and Women) have taken the fight to THEM...

"We've been lied to about 'imminent threats' and weapons of mass destruction." What John are you so possative because some Arab Speaking Extreamist hasn't knocked on your Door and Shoved a Synide Laddened Gerbal up your ass.. you haven't felt the pressures of Imminent Threats... I bet you would feel differently had your ass been on the 10th floor of the WTC on 911 wouldn't it??? think Philosophically about that one!!!

"Tax breaks for the wealthy have tanked the economy."
What you a little pissed I'm suprised I reached the Wealthy State this year bacause I got my First Tax Break in about 10 yrs this past yr 400 bucks over my regular dividend... I bought Cigars with that Wealthy Moneys Earned glad I got to contribute to the economy Tank
"No-bid contracts given to friends of the administration." The Idea here was my Posting on the link for this.. shouldn't be to hard for you to pull it up.. it was a link to a liberal Bias News Speal... the fact is... the Infrastructure to Iraq needs to be rebuilt along with the rest of the country.. you got a friend who own's a business that would be willing to risk their lives to go into a Country with these type radical Extremists still shooting Americans.. and them set up their construction company and start working on things??? the Company's chosen to do this work have a long history with the Federal Government for doing Jobs like this all over the World... most of them clear back to WWII... So have your buddy's send in their bids also... but if they strike the bid and back out... their Liable...

"And so on. There is so much to condemn, very little to compliment." Only in your Eye's and Mind!!!

"Tell me what I should be proud of with this administration?" How he took the Fight to them instead of More Innocent Americans Dieing on our Homelands.. I get a gut wrenching thought about AL Gore running this country then 911 happening.. and then more **** all across this land Terrorist Acts and ****... then I wake up and realize... this isn't Isreal and it's safe to go to the market today and tomorrow!!!
We got Military Members Fighting and being away from their Family and Loved one's while Someone like you sits back and Bad Mouths their Commander and Chief and their Homeland!!!!! KMA!!!!!!!

Hog
jdrabinski Offline
#21 Posted:
Joined: 08-16-2002
Posts: 794
I knew I could draw hog out of the woodwork on that one! LOL! Love ya, man.

I won't pack up and move because this is MY country as much as it is yours. MY country has been hijacked by liars and deceivers.

YOU badmouthed Clinton. Was that disrespectful of the military folks when YOU did it? Or are you selectively critical?

Hog, I've provided facts and you always write them off as 'biased.' So it seems pointless. But the FACT of no-bid contracts is a scandal and I suspect that deep down you know it. 'A few friends' is a corrupt and deceptive way to run a government. We aren't talking about a contract to build John and Hog a smoking room! These 'few friends' are making too many millions for me to look the other way. Here is a government document:

http://www.house.gov/apps/list/press/ca27_sherman/iraqsupplementalamndmt101703.html

Does that help?

Finally, you and others mention the deaths on 9/11 and Iraq. Well, al-Qaeda carried out those attacks. Bush himself says there is no link between al-Qaeda and Iraq.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3118262.stm

So don't complicate the issue with irrelevant connections. Unless you are one of those Americans who STILL think there is a connection.

John
DrMaddVibe Offline
#22 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,554
Nice try, but you forgot some facts!

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20031017/bs_nm/energy_halliburton_iraq_dc_1

As usual.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#23 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,554
Bin Laden’s Balkan Buddies

Intriguingly, the term "Bojinka," meaning "loud bang," is neither Arabic nor Tagalog (a Filipino dialect), as one might suspect. Instead, it is a Serbo-Croatian term with Turkish roots — a small but potentially significant connecting link to the Balkans, a region now infested with radical Muslim terrorist cells loyal to both Osama bin Laden and revolutionary Iran. Following the 1999 NATO bombing of Yugoslavia, the Serbian province of Kosovo was turned into a UN-supervised radical Muslim enclave under the rule of the so-called Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA). In February 1998, Robert Gelbard, the Clinton administration’s special envoy for Kosovo, told Agence France Presse that the KLA "is, without any questions, a terrorist group."

Ralf Mutschke, assistant director for Interpol’s Criminal Intelligence Directorate, pointed out in December 2000 congressional testimony: "In 1998, the U.S. State Department listed the KLA as a terrorist organization, indicating that it was financing its operations with money from the international heroin trade and loans from Islamic countries and individuals, among them allegedly Osama bin Laden." Mutschke pointed out that bin Laden lent the KLA one of his military commanders, who led "an elite KLA unit during the Kosovo conflict."

On August 24, 1998, shortly after U.S. cruise missiles struck purported bin Laden assets in Sudan and Afghanistan, the terror chieftain’s World Islamic Front (WIF) issued a communiqué urging its followers to "direct your attacks to the American army and her allies, the infidels." The KLA was among the al-Qaeda-connected groups to which that directive was issued. Nonetheless, in late 1998, the Clinton administration repealed its description of the KLA as a terrorist group, and began to supply it with assistance and training via the CIA.

By any definition, the KLA must be considered one of the most loathsome terrorist groups in existence. In the March 28, 1999 New York Times, Balkans correspondent Chris Hedges pointed out that the group’s leadership echelons were occupied by "diehard Marxist-Leninists (who were bankrolled in the old days by the Stalinist dictatorship next door in Albania)" as well as descendants of World War II-era fascist militias.

Writing in the May-June 1999 issue of Foreign Affairs, Hedges pointed out that the KLA’s ideology displays "hints of fascism on one side and whiffs of communism on the other," and its leadership includes the heirs and descendants of "the Skanderbeg volunteer SS division raised by the Nazis … [who] took part in the shameful roundup and deportation of [Kosovo’s] few hundred Jews during the Holocaust."

While bin Laden and the CIA collaborated to train the KLA’s military personnel, the group’s chief source of revenue was the international heroin trade. In 1994, when the KLA was an embryonic menace, France’s Observatire Geopolitique Des Drogues (a counter-narcotics bureau working with the European Commission) reported that "heroin shipment and marketing networks are taking root among ethnic Albanian communities in Albania, Macedonia, and the Kosovo province of Serbia, in order to finance large purchases of weapons destined … for the brewing war in Kosovo
......

http://www.thenewamerican.com/tna/2003/04-07-2003/vo19no07_terrorism.htm

Lets vote for Clark...NOT!
dz130 Offline
#24 Posted:
Joined: 08-22-2003
Posts: 781
Hog
Glad to see you back in the scrum.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#25 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,554
KLA rebels train in terrorist camps

By Jerry Seper

The Washington Times, May 4, 1999

Some members of the Kosovo Liberation Army, which has financed its war effort through the sale of heroin, were trained in terrorist camps run by international fugitive Osama bin Laden -- who is wanted in the 1998 bombing of two U.S. embassies in Africa that killed 224 persons, including 12 Americans.


The destruction of the U.S. Embassy in Nairobi, Kenya was blamed by the U.S. on Osama bin Laden's group. Well before the start of the NATO operation reports were pointing to his ties to KLA. Click on the pictures to get the larger size. First and last pictures: Reuters, second: Associated Press.

The KLA members, embraced by the Clinton administration in NATO's 41-day bombing campaign to bring Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic to the bargaining table, were trained in secret camps in Afghanistan, Bosnia-Herzegovina and elsewhere, according to newly obtained intelligence reports. The reports also show that the KLA has enlisted Islamic terrorists -- members of the Mujahideen --as soldiers in its ongoing conflict against Serbia, and that many already have been smuggled into Kosovo to join the fight.

Known to its countrymen as the Ushtria Clirimatare e Kosoves, the KLA has as many as 30,000 members, a number reportedly on the rise as a result of NATO's continuing bombing campaign. The group's leadership, including Agim Ceku, a former Croatian army brigadier general, has rapidly become a political and military force in the Balkans. The intelligence reports document what is described as a "link" between bin Laden, the fugitive Saudi including a common staging area in Tropoje, Albania, a center for Islamic terrorists.

The reports said bin Laden's organization, known as al-Qaeda, has both trained and financially supported the KLA. Many border crossings into Kosovo by "foreign fighters" also have been documented and include veterans of the militant group Islamic Jihad from Bosnia, Chechnya and Afghanistan. Many of the crossings originated in neighboring Albania and, according to the reports, included parties of up to 50 men.

Jane's International Defense Review, a highly respected British Journal, reported in February that documents found last year on the body of a KLA member showed that he had escorted several volunteers into Kosovo, including more than a dozen Saudi Arabians. Each volunteer carried a passport identifying him as a Macedonian Albanian.

Bin Laden and his military commander, Mohammed Atef, were named in a federal indictment handed up in November in New York for the simultaneous explosions Aug. 7 at the U.S. embassies in Nairobi, Kenya, and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania. The indictment accused the two men of directing the attacks, which injured more than 5,000 people.

The indictment said bin Laden, working through al-Qaeda, forged alliances with government officials in Iran, the National Islamic Front in the Sudan and an Iranian terrorist organization known as Hezbollah. He was indicted earlier this year by a federal grand jury in New York for his suspected terrorist activities. The al-Qaeda is believed to have targeted U.S. embassies and American soldiers stationed in Saudi Arabia and Somalia. The organization also is accused of housing and training terrorists, and of raising money to support their causes.

The State Department, along with other federal agencies, offered a $5 million reward last year for information leading to the arrest and conviction of the two men. Mr. Clinton ordered a retaliatory attack on training bases controlled by bin Laden in Afghanistan and a chemical factory near Khartoum, Sudan, after the bombings.

Last year, while State Department officials labeled the KLA a terrorist organization, saying it bankrolled its operations with proceeds from the heroin trade and from loans from known terrorists like bin Laden, the department listed the group as an "insurgency" organization in its official reports. The officials charged that the KLA used terrorist tactics to assault Serbian and ethnic Albanian civilians in a campaign to achieve independence.

The KLA's involvement in drug smuggling as a means of raising funds for weapons is long-standing. Intelligence documents show it has aligned itself with an extensive organized crime network in Albania that smuggles heroin to buyers throughout Western Europe and the United States.

Drug agents in five countries believe the cartel is one of the most powerful heroin smuggling organizations in the world. The documents show heroin and some cocaine is moved over land and sea from Turkey through Bulgaria, Greece and Yugoslavia to Western Europe and elsewhere. The circuit has become known as the "Balkan Route."

The U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration said in a recent report that drug smuggling organizations composed of Kosovo's ethnic Albanians were considered "second only to Turkish gangs as the predominant heroin smugglers along the Balkan Route." Greek Interpol representatives have called Kosovo's ethnic Albanians "the primary sources of supply for cocaine and heroin in that country."

France's Geopolitical Observatory of Drugs said the KLA was a key player in the rapidly expanding drugs-for-arms business and helped transport $2 billion in drugs a year into Western Europe. German drug agents said $1.5 billion in drug profits is laundered annually by Kosovo smugglers, through as many as 200 private banks or currency-exchange offices.

Jane's Intelligence Review estimated in March that drug sales could have netted the KLA profits in the "high tens of millions of dollars." It said the KLA had rearmed itself for a spring offensive with the aid of drug money, along with donations from Albanians in Western Europe and the United States.
jdrabinski Offline
#26 Posted:
Joined: 08-16-2002
Posts: 794
Sounds like Satan to me ... a Kosovar with horns and a pitchfork!

John
DrMaddVibe Offline
#27 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,554
Kinda like peanut butter & jelly.

God & Satan.

You'd mention one, but have to come up with some cryptic way to mention the other. Funny.
jdrabinski Offline
#28 Posted:
Joined: 08-16-2002
Posts: 794
DMV, look again at the title of this thread.

John
DrMaddVibe Offline
#29 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,554
???

I figured you'd have some Jesuit way of saying Satan, seeing as how you have to use railroad crossing abbreviations to represent christians.

You're a real mixed bag.
jdrabinski Offline
#30 Posted:
Joined: 08-16-2002
Posts: 794
DMV, in case you weren't paying attention, please note that I started spelling out Christianity when folks said they are offended. I think it is silly to be offended, personally, but I honored the sensitivity of y'all here.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#31 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,554
It's one thing to be offended its another to be offensive.
65gtoman Offline
#32 Posted:
Joined: 06-12-2003
Posts: 858
You have no honor, you show no respect for any military personal here on this board or anywhere else, you make me sick that you even breathe air. It’s not that im talking about your topics you brought up, its you personally and your delivery. That’s whats sickening to me. Not even the people on the left will defend you, because of how you speak. You have no respect for anything not even yourself.

Only a fool would condemn their own country they live in.

65gtoman Offline
#33 Posted:
Joined: 06-12-2003
Posts: 858
*Military Personnel
tailgater Offline
#34 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
Just for the record, John, please define "tax break for the wealthy" and explain how it has tanked the economy.

Thank you.
jdrabinski Offline
#35 Posted:
Joined: 08-16-2002
Posts: 794
65gtoman,

You need a lesson in democracy. And, I suspect, a lesson in consistency. Did you criticize the Clinton government and its policies? If so, then you did just what I am doing.

How does my 'delivery' disgust you? That is a strange thing to say. You don't like how I write? Odd basis for hatred.

I get pretty tired of this uncritical call to 'honor' military people. What does that even mean? When have I ever said ANYTHING about soldiers in these pages? I've criticized policy, yes, but fanatics like you equate policy with the common soldier. Why you cannot see that distinction, I'll never know.

If it is such an imperative to 'honor military personnel,' do I understand you to say that I should always support foreign policy? If so, please explain how that is different than an authoritarian state where no one is able to criticize the government.

I hope you answer these questions. I suspect you won't, but will instead choose to heap insults upon me. If you'd like to take the personal dimension up, post your email and I'll email you and we can spare all the folks here all the 'drama.'

Tailgater,

Bush's tax break was massively disproportionate in favor of the wealthy. Right. That is beyond dispute. The hope, in a phrase from Reagan's similarly disastrous economic policy, was that the wealth would trickle down. The only thing that trickled down was the laughter as the fat cats lit their Opus Xs with $100 bills. LOL!

The result of this economic strategy has been massive deficits and deficit spending. This is happening right now. Not in dispute.

The result of that economic strategy are tantamount to a tanked economy, with high unemployment, sagging wages, budget crisis in every state, and more and more borrowing. This is happening right now. Not in dispute. And that is how I define a tanked economy.

I take no joy in this. In fact, I am pissed about it. The people who suffer are the hardworking folks in this country. The rich always keep their jobs and golden parachutes in a bad economy. Yet they get the biggest tax break. That's just flat out wrong.

John
65gtoman Offline
#36 Posted:
Joined: 06-12-2003
Posts: 858
Your right, im not about to explain respect or honor to you. It wouldn’t do any good.

And I have a really big problem with you calling a fellow decorated and twice-wounded veteran a crazy and a jackass. For no other reason then him talking about his own views of the war in his own church.

He is right this is a religious war. Bush won’t call a spade a spade because he’s a **** on this issue and is only thinking about his politics. Ask the enemy if this is a religious war, they will tell you!

Why don’t you goto some bar around an army base and spew this crap to the soldiers there. See what they think about it. Im sure they would just love to here all your ideas. Maybe they will explain honor and respect to you.

If you think for one minute that I will sit here and let you bad mouth a man who has sacrificed and done more for this country and other countries then you ever dreamed of, you have another thing coming.

Your own words “I condemn my country” that means you condemn the military and all people in this country.

So if want to bad mouth vets and this great land, goto the communism board.


eleltea Offline
#37 Posted:
Joined: 03-03-2002
Posts: 4,562
jd, do you spend any time berating fundalmentalist muslims, too, or is it just Christians that are bambu under your fingernails?
tailgater Offline
#38 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
John,
You said alot without answering my question.

Exactly which tax break are we talking about?
Which one was only for the wealthy?



jdrabinski Offline
#39 Posted:
Joined: 08-16-2002
Posts: 794
gtoman,

a man's profession does not elevate him above criticism. I don't care if he is a teacher, a doctor, a military man, a lawyer, or a priest. We are all equal before the law. So too are we all equal before criticism.

I expect you to be consistent here and defend John Kerry and Wesley Clark, both war heroes and military men.

The man in the article is a jackass. I can say that because he represents ME and what he said is an embarrassment to our nation. This guy actually thinks God put Bush Jr. in office! Get him some meds.

eleltea,

My country is not being overrun by fundamentalist Muslims, so they are not my chief concern. But, in case you were really asking and not dropping rhetoric, I do in fact condemn religious fundamentalism of all stripes. It is bad for society, simply put. Makes a society backward. I'm for forward.

Tailgater,

Sorry, thought I'd answered your question. I don't think you really wonder what I am talking about...it has been the centerpiece of GWB's economic plan since the beginning: a 1.6 trillion tax cut, lobbied for in 2001, 50% of which went to the top 1% earners.

John
DrMaddVibe Offline
#40 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,554
"I condemn my country because the current leadership is an absolute embarassment. Extremist foreign policy has led to a lot of unnecessary death and destruction. We've been lied to about 'imminent threats' and weapons of mass destruction."

When does the double-edged sword cut your tounge out? Guess who this is from?

PS - You're gonna LOVE the ending! Lies, I tell you. Lies. I tried to tell him about all the threats we had, but he was more interested in ripping the carpet out of the Oval Office. LOL!

Earlier today, I ordered America's armed forces to strike military and security targets in Iraq. They are joined by British forces. Their mission is to attack Iraq's nuclear, chemical and biological weapons programs and its military capacity to threaten its neighbors.

Their purpose is to protect the national interest of the United States, and indeed the interests of people throughout the Middle East and around the world.

Saddam Hussein must not be allowed to threaten his neighbors or the world with nuclear arms, poison gas or biological weapons.

I want to explain why I have decided, with the unanimous recommendation of my national security team, to use force in Iraq; why we have acted now; and what we aim to accomplish.

Six weeks ago, Saddam Hussein announced that he would no longer cooperate with the United Nations weapons inspectors called UNSCOM. They are highly professional experts from dozens of countries. Their job is to oversee the elimination of Iraq's capability to retain, create and use weapons of mass destruction, and to verify that Iraq does not attempt to rebuild that capability.

The inspectors undertook this mission first 7.5 years ago at the end of the Gulf War when Iraq agreed to declare and destroy its arsenal as a condition of the ceasefire.

The international community had good reason to set this requirement. Other countries possess weapons of mass destruction and ballistic missiles. With Saddam, there is one big difference: He has used them. Not once, but repeatedly. Unleashing chemical weapons against Iranian troops during a decade-long war. Not only against soldiers, but against civilians, firing Scud missiles at the citizens of Israel, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain and Iran. And not only against a foreign enemy, but even against his own people, gassing Kurdish civilians in Northern Iraq.

The international community had little doubt then, and I have no doubt today, that left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will use these terrible weapons again.

The United States has patiently worked to preserve UNSCOM as Iraq has sought to avoid its obligation to cooperate with the inspectors. On occasion, we've had to threaten military force, and Saddam has backed down.

Faced with Saddam's latest act of defiance in late October, we built intensive diplomatic pressure on Iraq backed by overwhelming military force in the region. The UN Security Council voted 15 to zero to condemn Saddam's actions and to demand that he immediately come into compliance.

Eight Arab nations -- Egypt, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, Qatar, United Arab Emirates and Oman -- warned that Iraq alone would bear responsibility for the consequences of defying the UN.

When Saddam still failed to comply, we prepared to act militarily. It was only then at the last possible moment that Iraq backed down. It pledged to the UN that it had made, and I quote, a clear and unconditional decision to resume cooperation with the weapons inspectors.

I decided then to call off the attack with our airplanes already in the air because Saddam had given in to our demands. I concluded then that the right thing to do was to use restraint and give Saddam one last chance to prove his willingness to cooperate.

I made it very clear at that time what unconditional cooperation meant, based on existing UN resolutions and Iraq's own commitments. And along with Prime Minister Blair of Great Britain, I made it equally clear that if Saddam failed to cooperate fully, we would be prepared to act without delay, diplomacy or warning.

Now over the past three weeks, the UN weapons inspectors have carried out their plan for testing Iraq's cooperation. The testing period ended this weekend, and last night, UNSCOM's chairman, Richard Butler, reported the results to UN Secretary-General Annan.

The conclusions are stark, sobering and profoundly disturbing.

In four out of the five categories set forth, Iraq has failed to cooperate. Indeed, it actually has placed new restrictions on the inspectors. Here are some of the particulars.

Iraq repeatedly blocked UNSCOM from inspecting suspect sites. For example, it shut off access to the headquarters of its ruling party and said it will deny access to the party's other offices, even though UN resolutions make no exception for them and UNSCOM has inspected them in the past.

Iraq repeatedly restricted UNSCOM's ability to obtain necessary evidence. For example, Iraq obstructed UNSCOM's effort to photograph bombs related to its chemical weapons program.

It tried to stop an UNSCOM biological weapons team from videotaping a site and photocopying documents and prevented Iraqi personnel from answering UNSCOM's questions.

Prior to the inspection of another site, Iraq actually emptied out the building, removing not just documents but even the furniture and the equipment.

Iraq has failed to turn over virtually all the documents requested by the inspectors. Indeed, we know that Iraq ordered the destruction of weapons-related documents in anticipation of an UNSCOM inspection.

So Iraq has abused its final chance.

As the UNSCOM reports concludes, and again I quote, "Iraq's conduct ensured that no progress was able to be made in the fields of disarmament.

"In light of this experience, and in the absence of full cooperation by Iraq, it must regrettably be recorded again that the commission is not able to conduct the work mandated to it by the Security Council with respect to Iraq's prohibited weapons program."

In short, the inspectors are saying that even if they could stay in Iraq, their work would be a sham.

Saddam's deception has defeated their effectiveness. Instead of the inspectors disarming Saddam, Saddam has disarmed the inspectors.

This situation presents a clear and present danger to the stability of the Persian Gulf and the safety of people everywhere. The international community gave Saddam one last chance to resume cooperation with the weapons inspectors. Saddam has failed to seize the chance.

And so we had to act and act now.

Let me explain why.

First, without a strong inspection system, Iraq would be free to retain and begin to rebuild its chemical, biological and nuclear weapons programs in months, not years.

Second, if Saddam can crippled the weapons inspection system and get away with it, he would conclude that the international community -- led by the United States -- has simply lost its will. He will surmise that he has free rein to rebuild his arsenal of destruction, and someday -- make no mistake -- he will use it again as he has in the past.

Third, in halting our air strikes in November, I gave Saddam a chance, not a license. If we turn our backs on his defiance, the credibility of U.S. power as a check against Saddam will be destroyed. We will not only have allowed Saddam to shatter the inspection system that controls his weapons of mass destruction program; we also will have fatally undercut the fear of force that stops Saddam from acting to gain domination in the region.

That is why, on the unanimous recommendation of my national security team -- including the vice president, the secretary of defense, the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, the secretary of state and the national security adviser -- I have ordered a strong, sustained series of air strikes against Iraq.

They are designed to degrade Saddam's capacity to develop and deliver weapons of mass destruction, and to degrade his ability to threaten his neighbors.

At the same time, we are delivering a powerful message to Saddam. If you act recklessly, you will pay a heavy price. We acted today because, in the judgment of my military advisers, a swift response would provide the most surprise and the least opportunity for Saddam to prepare.

If we had delayed for even a matter of days from Chairman Butler's report, we would have given Saddam more time to disperse his forces and protect his weapons.

Also, the Muslim holy month of Ramadan begins this weekend. For us to initiate military action during Ramadan would be profoundly offensive to the Muslim world and, therefore, would damage our relations with Arab countries and the progress we have made in the Middle East.

That is something we wanted very much to avoid without giving Iraq's a month's head start to prepare for potential action against it.

Finally, our allies, including Prime Minister Tony Blair of Great Britain, concurred that now is the time to strike. I hope Saddam will come into cooperation with the inspection system now and comply with the relevant UN Security Council resolutions. But we have to be prepared that he will not, and we must deal with the very real danger he poses.

So we will pursue a long-term strategy to contain Iraq and its weapons of mass destruction and work toward the day when Iraq has a government worthy of its people.

First, we must be prepared to use force again if Saddam takes threatening actions, such as trying to reconstitute his weapons of mass destruction or their delivery systems, threatening his neighbors, challenging allied aircraft over Iraq or moving against his own Kurdish citizens.

The credible threat to use force, and when necessary, the actual use of force, is the surest way to contain Saddam's weapons of mass destruction program, curtail his aggression and prevent another Gulf War.

Second, so long as Iraq remains out of compliance, we will work with the international community to maintain and enforce economic sanctions. Sanctions have cost Saddam more than $120 billion -- resources that would have been used to rebuild his military. The sanctions system allows Iraq to sell oil for food, for medicine, for other humanitarian supplies for the Iraqi people.

We have no quarrel with them. But without the sanctions, we would see the oil-for-food program become oil-for-tanks, resulting in a greater threat to Iraq's neighbors and less food for its people.

The hard fact is that so long as Saddam remains in power, he threatens the well-being of his people, the peace of his region, the security of the world.

The best way to end that threat once and for all is with a new Iraqi government -- a government ready to live in peace with its neighbors, a government that respects the rights of its people. Bringing change in Baghdad will take time and effort. We will strengthen our engagement with the full range of Iraqi opposition forces and work with them effectively and prudently.

The decision to use force is never cost-free. Whenever American forces are placed in harm's way, we risk the loss of life. And while our strikes are focused on Iraq's military capabilities, there will be unintended Iraqi casualties.

Indeed, in the past, Saddam has intentionally placed Iraqi civilians in harm's way in a cynical bid to sway international opinion.

We must be prepared for these realities. At the same time, Saddam should have absolutely no doubt if he lashes out at his neighbors, we will respond forcefully.

Heavy as they are, the costs of action must be weighed against the price of inaction. If Saddam defies the world and we fail to respond, we will face a far greater threat in the future. Saddam will strike again at his neighbors. He will make war on his own people.

And mark my words, he will develop weapons of mass destruction. He will deploy them, and he will use them.

Because we're acting today, it is less likely that we will face these dangers in the future.

Let me close by addressing one other issue. Saddam Hussein and the other enemies of peace may have thought that the serious debate currently before the House of Representatives would distract Americans or weaken our resolve to face him down.

But once more, the United States has proven that although we are never eager to use force, when we must act in America's vital interests, we will do so.

In the century we're leaving, America has often made the difference between chaos and community, fear and hope. Now, in the new century, we'll have a remarkable opportunity to shape a future more peaceful than the past, but only if we stand strong against the enemies of peace.

Tonight, the United States is doing just that. May God bless and protect the brave men and women who are carrying out this vital mission and their families. And may God bless America.
jdrabinski Offline
#41 Posted:
Joined: 08-16-2002
Posts: 794
DMV, you clearly have mastery of ctrl-c. Nice work.

You seem to be under the illusion that I was a Clinton supporter, specifically his bombing of Iraq. You would be wrong about that.

Where are those WMDs again? Oh, that's right...they aren't out there! When are you gonna swallow that bitter pill, boy?

John
65gtoman Offline
#42 Posted:
Joined: 06-12-2003
Posts: 858



General Boykin Bio


Native of Wilson, N.C.


Married to the former Ashley Steele of Darien, Conn.


Graduated from Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University with a bachelor's degree in education (1971).


1971: Commissioned in U.S. Army. Served in 2nd Armored Division, Fort Hood, Texas; 101st Airborne Division, Fort Campbell, Ky.; and 24th Infantry Division (Mechanized), Fort Stewart, Ga.


1978-1990: Assigned in various capacities to Delta Force.


1980: Delta Force operations officer on the April 24-25 Iranian hostage
rescue attempt (Operation Eagle Claw)


1983: Grenada


1990-1991: Army War College


1992-1995: Commander of Delta Force.


1992: Col. Boykin is commander of the initial eight-man Delta team sent to Colombia on July 26 to hunt down Pablo Escobar (Lt. Col. Gary Harrell is one of the officers involved in the mission; now Brig. Gen. Harrell, commander of special operations in Iraq.)


14 April 1993: Col. Boykin, together with Brig. Gen. Peter J. Schoomaker (currently chief of staff of the Army) meets with Attorney General Janet Reno to discuss Waco planning.




1993: Somalia; commander of the Oct. 3-4, 1993, raid in Mogadishu, Somalia, to grab clan leaders of warlord Mohamed Farrah Aidid. Wounded by a mortar round.


1994-1995: Chief, Special Operations Division, Office of the Joint Chiefs of Staff


1995: Participated in the White House Security Review as a consultant


1995: Deputy director of special activities in the U.S. Army Element of the CIA, assigned to the Military Special Projects Group (also known as the Special Activities Staff).


1995: Haiti operations.


April 1998 to February 2000: Commanding general, U.S. Army Special Forces Command (Airborne), Fort Bragg, N.C.


March 2000-2003: Commanding general, U.S. Army John F. Kennedy Special Warfare Center, Fort Bragg, N.C.


June 2003 - present: Deputy undersecretary of defense for intelligence (intelligence and war fighting), the Pentagon



Quotes from General Boykin


FIRST BAPTIST CHURCH, BROKEN ARROW, OKLA., JUNE 30, 2002
[SLIDE SHOW, PICTURE OF OSAMA BIN LADEN]


"And then we began to see this facethe face of Osama bin Laden. And finally we said, 'There's the enemy. That's our enemy. That's the man that hates us. And all of those that follow him."


[PICTURE OF PRESIDENT BUSH] "And then this man stepped forward. A man that has acknowledged that he prays in the Oval Office. A man that's in the White House today because of a miracle. You think about how he got in the White House. You think about why he's there today. As Mordecai said to Esther, 'You ave been put there for such a time and place.' And this man has been put in the White house to lead our nation in such a time as this.


"But who is that enemy? It's not Osama bin Laden. Our enemy is a spiritual enemy because we are a nation of believers. You go back and look at our history, and you will find that we were founded on faith. Look at what the writers of our Constitution said. We are a nation of believers. We were founded on faith."


[PICTURE OF SATAN] "And the enemy that has come against our nation is a spiritual enemy. His name is Satan. And if you do not believe that Satan is real, you are ignoring the same Bible that tells you about God. Now I'm a warrior. One day I'm going to take off this uniform and I'm still going to be a warrior. And what I'm here to do today is to recruit you to be warriors of God's kingdom."




GOOD SHEPHERD CHURCH, SANDY, ORE., JUNE 21, 2003
CELEBRATE AMERICA EVENT


"And we ask ourselves this question, 'Why do they hate us? Why do they hate us so much?'


Ladies and gentlemen, the answer to that is because we're a Christian nation, because our foundation and our roots are Judeo-Christian. Did I say Judeo-Christian? Yes. Judeo-Christian.


"That means we've got a commitment to Israel. That mean's it's a commitment we're never going to abandon.


"Go back and read the history books. Go back and read what the early founders of this nation said about Israel, about the Jews. John Adams wrote extensively of, he called it the Hebrews, the contributions they had made to our concepts of liberty and the importance of their contributions to the founding of this great nation.


"Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin each, independently, when asked to come up with a national symbol for this new nation, both came up with a national symbol that reflected on our Jewish heritage.


"One had Moses standing over the Red Sea with his staff and the water parting.


"The other had the Israelites coming out of bondage in the desert being led by a ball of fire. They recognized the importance of our relationship to the Jews and to Israel. Ladies and gentlemen, we will never abandon Israel, we will never walk away from our commitment to Israel because our roots are there.


Our religion came from Judaism, and therefore these radicals will hate us forever."




FIRST BAPTIST CHURCH, DAYTONA, FLA., JAN. 28, 2003


"There was a man in Mogadishu named Osman Atto. You see him in the movie ["Blackhawk Down"], smoking a big cigar and talking philosophically. How many of you have seen the movie? Acting like a big shot. Well let me tell you something. That's not what Osman Atto did. The reality was Osman Atto was Aideed's closest ally. He was Aideed's top lieutenant. He was a multimillionaire financier for Aideed's clan. And we knew if that if we could capture Osman Atto and take him away, that we could destroy Aideed's network. So we went after Osman Atto about two weeks before the battle.... We went after Osman Atto. We got into a terrible fight. And I'm sad to say a lot of Somalis were killed as we went after Osman Atto.


But we missed him by seconds. He walked out of the facility that we raided, he walked down the street and blended in with the crowd and we missed him.


"And then he went on CNN and he laughed at us, and he said, 'They'll never get me because Allah will protect me. Allah will protect me.'


"Well, you know what I knew that my God was bigger than his. I knew that my God was a real God, and his was an idol. But I prayed, Lord let us get that man.


"Three days later we went after him again, and this time we got him. Not a mark on him. We got him. We brought him back into our base there and we had a Sea Land container set up to hold prisoners in, and I said put him in there. They put him in there, there was one guard with him. I said search him, they searched him, and then I walked in with no one in there but the guard, and I looked at him and said, 'Are you Osman Atto?' And he said 'Yes.' And I said, 'Mr. Atto, you underestimated our God.'"
65gtoman Offline
#43 Posted:
Joined: 06-12-2003
Posts: 858
jdrabinski You are anti-American and a communist, of course you don’t like Clinton, you hate all American presidents and anything that has to do with America. You condemn America and everything in it.

DrMaddVibe Offline
#44 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,554
No I know you're not. You don't support America PERIOD! We know THAT!

I'm tired of hearing about how GW "lied" to the world, when all he could be tied with is adhearing to his predecessors plan to keep Saddam lock stepped with the UN resolutions.

The UN turned a blind eye and let Saddam funnel money to whatever he wanted with the food-for-oil program. The UN bent over and let Saddam ram them with every resolution that they voted to use force on! GW used the war on terrorism to remove a component that would aid and abeit terrorism and has in the past! Now, that America has spoken up and used her force I'm sure you'll counter that we killed innocent people. The world IS a safer place without Saddam and his sons running Iraq. Soon, free elections will be held and those people will be able to vote on a ballot that has more than one name on it! It's got to cheese you off, because once again America did the RIGHT thing.

As far as the economy...look around the signs are pointing towards a full recovery with growth plus! America wins again.
jdrabinski Offline
#45 Posted:
Joined: 08-16-2002
Posts: 794
"You are anti-American and a communist, of course you don’t like Clinton, you hate all American presidents and anything that has to do with America. You condemn America and everything in it."

...and you've known me for how long? You have it wrong. My feelings about my country are complex, all motivated by a love of where I come from. Yet, you claim to know me better than I know myself based on a few bbs posts. I think you may be as crazy as the General!

The General thinks that God put GWB in the White House. That's just precious...or insane.

John
65gtoman Offline
#46 Posted:
Joined: 06-12-2003
Posts: 858
Hitler wanted to “condemn this country” too, he was also a communist.
jdrabinski Offline
#47 Posted:
Joined: 08-16-2002
Posts: 794
LOL! Hitler a communist?!?! That must be why he tried to invade Russia...to get close to the communists. You crack me up.

Do a Google.com search on Hitler and communism. You'll find the opposite of your point. Or, better yet, get a history book.

Hitler condemned the U.S.? Huh? What could that have to do with anything?

(Note: National Socialism did not mean "socialism" in the sense of an economic system).

John
65gtoman Offline
#48 Posted:
Joined: 06-12-2003
Posts: 858
Fascist/ communist it’s all the same. Fine, Hitler was a fascist and he also wanted (to condemn our country)

thanks lol

jdrabinski Offline
#49 Posted:
Joined: 08-16-2002
Posts: 794
Fascism and communism are not the same.

Hitler never seemed much concerned with the U.S., actually. Until we joined with the 'Allies.'

I think you suffer from a form of idolatry in relation to the U.S. Get some perspective.

John
65gtoman Offline
#50 Posted:
Joined: 06-12-2003
Posts: 858
now you really sound like a Hitler apologetic and or sympathizer!
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