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I think this capture is such a big deal to conservatives because they see the pit Iraq has become...throwing away money, lives, and time. Now we can focus on this event--a moot point, as he was already out of power--and, if conservatives have their way, all the other facts will disappear.

A great day in our history? Are you SERIOUS? Capturing a third-world dictator is a great day in American history? That lowers the bar on greatness.

Im glad about it, but then i see posts over on CA by conservatives in a thread just asking what cigar your gonna celebrate with lumping anti-bush people with freedom haters and saying all liberals will have trouble keeping their cigars lit.

I hang out on the forums for cigars, not to hear a bunch of conservatives spouting crap like that. I dont need to drag politics into my enjoyment of cigars.

I did smoke a celebratory partagas black label magnifico btw, as i am glad he is caught.

I agree 100% percent with MDavis! No need for partisan junk on a day like today! I would be pissed off if I was a troop and had to come home to bickering. Amazing how we take the military for granted.....they demand no pat on the back, and yet, we don't always give one for the protection they provide.

See this is what i was talking about. People like steve. Sorry buddy but if you believe that speaking against military efforts and the leadership of the country is giving aid and comfort to our enemies, you both need to start thinking with your head instead of the other end, and you need to grow up and act like a big boy who can handle being disagreed with.

If anything these people like steve who go around declaring anyone who doesn't love our leadership is anti-american or helping our enemies are the most unpatriotic and unamerican of us all. The claim that those who oppose bush and the war are anti-freedom because thats all the war is, freeing the iraqis right? Well freedom, especially in this country, is being able to hold different view points. Were not in a dictatorship, we dont have to blindly follow whoever gets put in charge. We have the right to have an opinion, regardless of whether it agrees with the current leader.

Its funny how many people are just fine with disagreeing with the president when they dont like something he does (ie enjoying cigars in other ways besides smoking them with certain interns) but the moment it turns to war they change and shun anyone else who does it.

Disagreeing with a war or a presidents decisions has nothing to do with getting a pair or being weak and spineless. Like I said grow up and act like a big boy. It has to do with the viewpoints some people have on how global politics and our national government should act, simple as that.

I don't know why they don't ban political talk on these cigar forums. It has no place here.

Damn right I'm glad he was caught! Hopefully this will deflate the Baath resistance and no more of our soldiers will be killed. I don't think Saddam is gonna show them any WMD. But it won't bother me to be wrong on this one.

mropto,

So, you have a right to your opinion and your feelings regarding the current issues that this thread discuses. You say you have the right to your opinion whether it be contrary to the leadership of this country, or to the others posting here, and damn it your going to say it. Because its your right as an American!

To that I say GOOD FOR YOU!

Im I right so far?

Then, a opinion that is contrary to your views is posted and WHAM, the poster needs to "Grow up and act like a big boy" how DARE his view differ from yours. DAMN him for his opinion! And how DARE he voice it here!

So, which is it?

Just wondering.

I could really care less what either of you think, but I just find these little discussions interesting and slightly amusing in my twisted sort of way.

And I do agree with you. Take all this poitical crap off the boards or give its own section and maybe call it The "Lets all pi$$ on each other cuz we cant have an adult discussion with out throwing fits" Board

Happy Holidays

Peace Out

BD

We used to have a Political and a Sports section...now we just have a misc. section. I've learned to live with it...so should the newbies!

I love when demonrats start to cry, ill put together a list off all the stupid things they say over the next few days and post it lol


I hear a few have already said stupid things.

You know what ? Robby is right. If you want to have a reasoned argument, don't want to listen to the same old crap from the same old knuckle-draggers then stay off this board. Point taken.

I've been reading here for several weeks and posting for a couple more. The posts on this board all wind up the same. Someone from the left(usually drabinski or RICHAMAVAN) replies to a post and the same group of posters bring out the same old school yard insults and lame comebacks. drabinski retaliates and so on, and so on, and so on ....... I realize there is probably history here that a newbie isn't privvy to, but you know what? For whatever the reason, it's boring as hell.

I had hoped this might be a place to exchange viewpoints and have a good old fashion political argument once in a while. There are some folks from the right that post here that have some interesting posts. Just can't get past, the troloydytes.

Guess, I'll stick to reading the Cigars & Related boards. I'm seldom bored there and at least there I learn something once in awhile.

"I think we can all agree that they suck!!"

Don't bet on it, Rob. There's probably someone here who sympathises with their plight. I guess that's their right.

This is a direct quote
"those who trash-mouth the leadership of this country and speak against our military efforts are, in plain terms, giving aid and comfort to our enemies"

That means you claim that if you have a spoken opinion against the leadership of the country or the military efforts then you are a traitor.

JJ thats the most I've seen youy Type around here in a long time Bro!!!!! Glad to see it Tho!!!

and I also stand by what SteveS had spoke of above he is correct in what he stated...

mroptimistic you are new around here... or just changed your username from jdrabinski to this here username.. all the same you sound in your wording like twin Brothers ... welcome aboard either way!!!!!

Hog

Mr. O,
Ironic name.
First of all, WELCOME.

I've got nothing to add that hasn't been stated, but would like to remind you that this forum is like the television: If you don't like the show that's on , switch channels.
There exists a "Cigars and Related" board.
There is no need to be involved with political discussions if you don't want to.
Otherwise, stick around.
It's refreshing to see new faces that express views left of center. Brings some balance.

And for the record, Steves comments regarding dissent were not only appropriate, they were accurate.

Look who Crawled out from under his ROCK!!!!!!

Mr Stop Pickin on me himself!!!!!

Im fond of political discussion, i wasn't really expecting it her, nor really desiring it here, but when i see it im drawn to it.

as to this

"MrO you seem to have left off some of SteveS quote.

"Whether in Congress, in the streets or in BBs such as this one, those who trash-mouth the leadership of this country and speak against our military efforts are, in plain terms, giving aid and comfort to our enemies, and in so doing, they are prolonging the war and exposing more of our boys to peril ..."

The only part i left off was where you said it, which it doesn't matter, and the in so doing prelonging the war yadda yadda, the fact still remains that the main part of that sentence is that by speaking against either bush or the actions of the military we are being traitors to our country and aiding the enemy.

The only reason i was hesitant at first to join in political discussion here is because i like it here and dont want a bad rep. I have a rep as being a bit arguementative on another forum because anyone who posts any bait I usually bite on. And considering what i have already seen here i dont expect it to be much different. I have a hard time dealing with the fact that the right treats the left like enemies, and occasionally the left does the same.

I see messages like the one i mentioned in my first post, or the one by 65gtoman in this thread.

In the end both sides are just trying to work for the good of the country, as they see it. Whats the point in making rediculously asinine comments like i love seeing democrats cry, or democrats are gonna have trouble keeping their cigars left today. FFS we should divide the country back up into north and south if were such enemies.

Bah im rambling. Thanks for the welcome I guess, although ive been posting on the trade forum for a bit.

Man I'm sorry. I didn't know my post was that stinkin' long.

Well the one predictable thing is that those with different political inclinations will always vocally disagree. And that is a fundamental right we have by virtue of being fortunate enough to live in this country.

But aside from political views, Sadaam was an incredibly sadistic bully. And he ended like a lot of bullys. In the face of someone with enough clout to kick his butt he wimped out meekly. And hopefully he will sing like a bird in an attempt to ease his miserable fate. And with any luck that will have beneficial results and speed up the efforts to find and neutralize more of his cohorts and stabilize the situation in Iraq so the troops we have there now can get home sooner. And that will be a good thing. And worthy of celebration.

Well said turnberry, that's where I was trying to go. There are those who disagree with the effort, and I firmly support their right to do so. But I think it's a good thing that "we got him"...

A founder of the ACLU is a card carrying commie

anti-war protesters are unpatriotic and disloyal, and their actions border on treason.

protesters creating negative, uninformed public opinion against the president, thereby harming the war effort of the troops.
Arab demonstrations and Arab polls must be disregarded; otherwise, we are letting enemy propaganda and enemy opinion call the shots about how we fight the war
The troops are fighting for the protesters’ right to protest – but to protest at the right time, which is not during wartime.
The protesters are supporting Saddam Hussein, who forbids protests and even kills protesters. They are being led and manipulated by the Old Left Communist helpers from the Vietnam War.
The vast majority of American people support President Bush and the war effort, but the media wrongly build up the anti-war protesters and make them appear more important and powerful than they are.
The Socialist-Communist organizers of these protest demonstrations will never stop trying to bring down the U.S. government

The protesters I remember used to spit on the troops and call us baby killers. Now they and their demon offspring chant the words “I support the troops just not the war” they are snakes in the grass.

They don’t give a dam about the troops, they use them as a pawn in todays war, not as targets to just spit upon.

Well done, tailgater ... you're a man who can read and understand ...

The anti-war bubbleheads are excercising their right of free speech ... it is not treason for them to do so.

BUT ... the fact is, the commentary DOES give aid and comfort to our enemies ... and they are PLANNING on it happening ... they KNOW that a lot of people in this country have a television mentality in which problems are most often neatly solved in 30 or 60 minutes, but never in a longer period of time than a Fox mini-series. They KNOW they can count on a vocal minority to fill the streets and letters to the editor pages with their mewlings ... it happened in Vietnam and it'll happen again now ... and I find that utterly appalling ...

If direct attacks on our country are not enough my question is WTF will it take? ... what, if ANYthing will you take a stand for?

All I can say is that I'm damn glad we've got a president who WILL take a stand, not just utter a lot of meaningless phrases about our not resting until the perps being brought to justice, then do absolutely nothing more. I'm danm glad we're bringing them to justice and I'm pleased to note that a majority of Americans support the president ... I think it's a crying shame it's not unanimous ...

Iraqi Minister Scolds U.N. for Inaction Regarding Hussein By WARREN HOGE

Published: December 16, 2003


NITED NATIONS, Dec. 16 — Iraq's foreign minister, Hoshyar Zebari, accused the United Nations Security Council today of having failed to help rescue his country from Saddam Hussein, and he chided member states for bickering over his beleaguered country's future.

"Settling scores with the United States-led coalition should not be at the cost of helping to bring stability to the Iraqi people," Mr. Zebari said in language unusually scolding for an occupant of the guest seat at the end of the curving Security Council table.

"Squabbling over political differences takes a back seat to the daily struggle for security, jobs, basic freedoms and all the rights the U.N. is chartered to uphold," he said.

Taking a harsh view of the inability of quarreling members of the Security Council to endorse military action in Iraq, Mr. Zebari said, "One year ago, the Security Council was divided between those who wanted to appease Saddam Hussein and those who wanted to hold him accountable.

"The United Nations as an organization failed to help rescue the Iraqi people from a murderous tyranny that lasted over 35 years, and today we are unearthing thousands of victims in horrifying testament to that failure."

He declared, "The U.N. must not fail the Iraqi people again."

It was not immediately clear how the accusatory tone of Mr. Zebari's speech affected the closed-door discussion over the United Nations' role in Iraq that followed, but Secretary General Kofi Annan, the first to emerge from the hall, appeared taken aback.

"Now is not the time to pin blame and point fingers," he told reporters. Saying that Mr. Zebari was "obviously entitled to his opinion," Mr. Annan said that the United Nations had done as much for Iraq as it could under the circumstances and was prepared to do more.

"Quite honestly," he said, "now is not the time to hurl accusations and counter-accusations."

Ambassador Emyr Jones Parry of Britain, the United States' principal ally in Iraq, said there had been pointed questioning by colleagues but that he detected "strong support" from them for the new timetable for the American-led coalition to hand over power to Iraqis by July — and for drawing up a constitution and holding elections in the years following that Mr. Zebari had laid out.

Today's session of the 15-member council was called to discuss the speeded-up plan for the United States-led coalition to hand over power to Iraqis by the end of June under an agreement reached a month ago between the coalition and the Iraqi Governing Council.

Mr. Annan led off the open session of the council with a speech drawing from his report last week that ruled out a swift return of the United Nations to Iraq because of the bombing of its Baghdad headquarters in August and continuing attacks on diplomats and relief workers.

He also said the United Nations needed more "clarity" over what it would be asked to do in Iraq before he could fully recommit the world organization and its international staff. He has assigned 40 of them to staff Iraq aid offices in Nicosia, Cyprus and Amman, Jordan. An estimated 2000 Iraqi United Nations workers are still at their posts in the country.

Mr. Zebari took issue with these steps, saying that Iraq could guarantee the United Nations whatever security it needed to return sooner and noting the importance of having the organization back in Baghdad.

"Your help and expertise cannot be effectively delivered from Cyprus or Amman," he said.

He also took on countries like France that have expressed doubts about the current governing group. "As Iraqis," he said, "we strongly disagree with those of you that question the legitimacy of the present Iraqi authorities."

He continued: "I'd like to remind you that the governing council is the most representative and democratic governing body in the region."

He said, "The members of the Security Council should be reaching out and encouraging this nascent democracy in a region well known for its authoritarian rule."

Ambassador Jean-Marc de la Sabliere of France, a critic of the war, turned aside the criticism of the Security Council dissenters, saying, "I don't want to comment on the past." He said he had questioned Mr. Zebari about France's interest in seeing Iraq increase the "inclusiveness" of the government so it would be one that would be viewed as "totally legitimate."

Its funny that mroptimistic it crying about this, and he just called me unpatriotic for voicing my own views lol

So its ok when you call me unpatriotic right?


You sir are a hypocrite, give the baby his bottle

mroptimistic said:

"Like i said 65gtoman, its people like you who are the most unpatriotic of them all."

Again you’re doing the same thing you accused me of.

I see no reason to say anymore to you, if you have facts bring them to the table, im not one for silly games.


feel free to post on my topics and welcome to the boards.