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Kerry's Econ Plan
Cavallo Offline
#1 Posted:
Joined: 01-05-2004
Posts: 2,796
no, i'm still not jumping in on the politics threads, but i read this today -- an article from a friend and respected economist in indiana (a very republican state, btw, though ashton's an economist, not a politician). in it he pares down the dem's economic plan. thought i'd toss it out there for informative reasons:

Democrats' Economic Plan

By Ashton Veramallay
------------------------------------------------------

Democratic presidential candidate John F. Kerry has outlined an economic plan for the United States.

It would cost at least $1 trillion over 10 years, which would be funded from rolling back President Bush's tax cuts to the wealthy, cost savings, and economic growth. It has Clintonian overtones and is designed to make America stronger at home and respected abroad.

In the Kerry and Edwards book, "Our Plan for America," they stress that the great American middle class is being squeezed by declining incomes and the staggering costs that families are facing in education, health care, and energy.

The average American family is earning less than in 2000. Real median income for the nation remained unchanged between 2000 and 2003 for all types of family and nonfamily households. About 36 million people were below the poverty thresholds in 2003. One family goes bankrupt every 19 seconds, a one-third increase since 2000.

The opportunity to build a better future starts with a good job. More than 75 percent of the new jobs being created today are in low-wage industries, paying $9,000 or less. The Kerry strategy is to jump start the growth of high-paying jobs. It will reduce taxes for businesses that create jobs here in the United States, while eliminating tax incentives to move jobs overseas.

Specifically, the plan would:


Close the foreign tax deferral loophole that encourages companies to send jobs overseas.

Cut tax rates for 99 percent of taxpaying U.S. businesses by using the savings from ending deferral and offshore tax havens to cut corporate tax rates by 5 percent.

Jump start job creation with a New Jobs Tax Credit that will give manufacturers, other businesses affected by outsourcing and small businesses a break on federal payroll taxes for every new job created in America.

Eliminate capital gains for start-up investments in small business.
The plan will also catalyze the creation of new private investment corporations to give small and medium-sized manufacturers access to capital for expansion and job creation along with high-technology manufacturing "clusters" around research institutions.

The plan hopes to create 10 million new jobs in an environment of free markets, honest competition, entrepreneurial spirit and hard work.

In addition to jobs, the plan will restore fiscal discipline by cutting the budget deficit in half within four years. Specifically, it will:


Repeal President Bush's tax cuts benefiting those earning over $200,000 a year while expanding middle-class tax cuts.

Bring back "pay-as-you-go" budget rules that require Congress to come up with offsets to pay for new spending or tax cut initiatives.

Bring back tough caps on domestic discretionary spending, reinforced by mandatory across-the-board cuts so that total discretionary spending, outside of security and education, grows no faster than inflation.
The plan will lower taxes for 98 percent of families.In the 1990s, fiscal discipline created confidence in the economy, encouraged investment and job creation, and led to a record expansion. Following that tradition the plan not only aims at strengthening families in the middle class but also helps families to join the middle class. Toward this end, it will raise the minimum wage to $7 an hour by 2007 so that a family of four with a full-time worker would no longer be forced to raise their children in poverty. It will also strengthen the Earned Income Tax Credit and invest in lifelong learning so that workers of all skill levels can access education and training to move up.

The plan will also expand access to college and make it more affordable. This means a college opportunity tax cut for middle-class families and a new bargain with states provided they will keep tuition increases in line with inflation for the next two years.

The plan calls for affordable health care for all Americans. About 45 million Americans have no health insurance at all, and more than 80 million Americans went without health care coverage at some point in the last two years. The uninsured are more likely to file bankruptcy because of mounting health care bills, less likely to get regular check ups and less likely to detect a disease in its early, most treatable forms.

The plan gives all Americans access to the same quality health care offered to Congress. This is a good coverage at a reasonable cost with plenty of choices among private plans. The plan also aims to keep down spiraling health costs, including prescription drugs for seniors, quality care throughout Medicare in every part of the country, and medical malpractice insurance.

Finally, the plan calls for energy independence. It will end America's dangerous dependence on Mideast oil which is controlled by some of the world's most repressive regimes. This dependence poses a real threat to our national security, our economy, and our environment and inhibits our ability to provide moral leadership in the world.

Ashton Veramallay is professor of economics and director of the Center for Economic Education at Indiana University East.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#2 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,552
I smell a flip about to happen!

LMAO!

Ask not what you can do for your country, but what you've done for her!
usahog Offline
#3 Posted:
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
Rolling Back.. LMAO!!!! thats the same as Stick it to'em... Stick it to'em Good!!!!

hell it's only 1 trillion in 10 yrs... your kids don't have to eat.. isn't that just the niftiest Idea in this centery?? Golly Gee Jimbob... go get yer sister!!!!

Hog
Charlie Offline
#4 Posted:
Joined: 06-16-2002
Posts: 39,751
I would love to see and hear John f Kerry articulate this plan to an audience as he would change about 50% of it without blinking and eye and then forget that he even said it before! This guy is a joke and any plan he has will be "flipped" several times....yada yada yada

Charlie
CWFoster Offline
#5 Posted:
Joined: 12-12-2003
Posts: 5,414
most of it sounds good, but the fly in the ointment is the increase in the minimum wage. notice a correlation between the price of a hamburger and the minimum wage, when the wage was 3.65, you could buy two large fast food burgers for that much, now that the minimum wage has gone up, what's two whoppers cost? By raising the floor, you raise everything that sets on it. The overall effect is simply inflationary. By doing that one thing to buy votes from the poor, they ensure that they will stay poor. What kind of logic is that? Some of these ideas are pretty good otherwise.
Charlie Offline
#6 Posted:
Joined: 06-16-2002
Posts: 39,751
That is called Democrat logic, as they always want lots of poor people to pander to and make them think they are caring for them, when in fact, they are just screwing em and keeping them poor!

Charlie
CWFoster Offline
#7 Posted:
Joined: 12-12-2003
Posts: 5,414

If you solve the problems that lie at the root of the major issues, you will soon have no issues! That's why Gore was able to run on a "Strong Education" Platform, after eight years of Clinton/Gore Administration!
grond Offline
#8 Posted:
Joined: 06-07-2003
Posts: 738
Minimum wage is a tremendous issue for small businesses and not because we pay minimum wage. Here's the deal. I pay my driver (flower delivery) $6.50/hr (rural community). I pay a Design trainee $7.50/hr. Designer $8.50/hr... Sr. Designer $9.50... Master Designer $10.50-$12.50.

Now, raise the minimum wage to $6.50/hr. I have to raise my scale. My driver deserves more than minimum wage so she goes to say $7.00 and the scale goes up through the employees... not by the $.50/hr but by the percentage of increase. In my shop that increase of 7.7% equals an across the payroll increase of $11,561. Add to that an additional $300 - $400 in unemployment. Now add an additional $884 for employer FICA. Now, understand that my suppliers, wholesalers and freight firms will also have to respond so my raw material and supply cost increases as well. Just taking into account my salary cost increase of $12,795... and considering that I net (in real dollars) approximately $45,000 from my business... your talking about me taking a 28.4% decrease in earnings. Now multiply this scenario across America and you'll find that all you're really doing is causing inflation. We are a capitalistic society where the marketplace dictates (or should dictate wages). Wage earning is a function of skill, education, training, etc. We provide training for the driver to become a Master Designer. Her or his own initiative is left to do the rest.

Cavallo, if your guy wins, I guess I won't have money to buy cigars anymore.

Cheers,

grond

bassdude Offline
#9 Posted:
Joined: 01-13-2004
Posts: 8,871
very good grond. You can not help the minimum wage earner without giving the small business owner a shot to the kidneys. While Kerry was here he told one group he'd raise min wage and then later in the day he told the small business owner how he would help them. I'd like to see Blood's take on this.
usahog Offline
#10 Posted:
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
Well Put grond... now if would only sink in.. LMAO!!!!

I'm going to quit calling them lefty's, liberals or any other trademarked emblems... from now on their sputniks...

Hog
grond Offline
#11 Posted:
Joined: 06-07-2003
Posts: 738
What I'd like is for someone who is a firm believer in rasing the minimum wage to post and refute what I've posted. I live and breath this stuff day in and day out. It is interesting to hear people's viewpoints whose wages are dependent on the wage provider. I just happen to be one of those wage providers and... our perspective is slightly different.

Cheers,

grond
Cavallo Offline
#12 Posted:
Joined: 01-05-2004
Posts: 2,796
grond: i wouldn't worry about it. a min wage hike takes a hellova lot of work to get passed; just because it's part of a plan doesn't mean that it will get enough support to pass.

but if the economy improves, you have more people buying your product, and your profit goes up and up and up. hell, even folks earning min wage can buy your stuff now -- that's good, no? ;)

btw, though, if you get so broke from it that you can't buy cigars, i'll be glad to send some to you. :)

i just wonder if any of you middle class folks noticed that there are tax breaks for YOU in there that bush isn't offering up?

if you're in the top 2% of monied people in this country (and i don't see donald trump here), your tax break will be gone -- if not your taxes will be LESS. i don't know why mid-class folks don't find that encouraging.
Cavallo Offline
#13 Posted:
Joined: 01-05-2004
Posts: 2,796
grond: one more thing -- is your small business exempt from min wage laws?
grond Offline
#14 Posted:
Joined: 06-07-2003
Posts: 738
Cavallo,

Yes, I am exempt from minimum wage laws but that doesn't lessen the impact that raising the minimum will have on my business. I hire from the same labor pool as the minimum wage businesses.

I have also seen mucho benefits from the Bush Tax Cuts. Don't quite understand where Kerry is getting his "Bush raises taxes on the working middle class" facts and figures but they have no reality in the dollars I pay (or don't pay) to the U. S. Government.
usahog Offline
#15 Posted:
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
Thats just it.. Kerry and Company are slinging **** on the Wall and hoping it will stick and bring them on top come november... download and read his "Our_Plan_For_America off his website... 246 pages of BS....

the problem is there are allot of people riding with the additude ABB.. Anybody But Bush... my sister being one of them...

How sad this country is becoming...

Hog
MACS Offline
#16 Posted:
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,867
I hate posting on political issues, but I thought it necessary.

People who make lots of money, pay lots of taxes, therefore should receive bigger tax breaks.

If I make $2 million a year and pay $40k in taxes and I get a $3k tax break... then you make $1 million a year and pay $20k a year in taxes and get a $1.5k tax break, how the hell is that not FAIR?

Pay more taxes, get a bigger break. Simple math folks. I would have to consider myself part of the middle class and I don't pay all that much in taxes... Thanks to Bush.
JonR Offline
#17 Posted:
Joined: 02-19-2002
Posts: 9,740

"Kerry's Econ Plan" = Oxymoron.

LOL

JonR
grond Offline
#18 Posted:
Joined: 06-07-2003
Posts: 738
The fact of the matter is that the upper/lower and lower middle classes pay little to no taxes anyway. How do you give someone a tax break who pays no taxes? Well... the Democrats call it tax relief when, in fact, they are talking about a tax rebate. That, in a nut shell, is simply another social program which "gives" money that wasn't earned back to the people who didn't earn it. Now that is an oxymoron.

Sylance Offline
#19 Posted:
Joined: 06-19-2003
Posts: 592
This is my favorite quote from this thread:

“grond: i wouldn't worry about it. a min wage hike takes a hellova lot of work to get passed; just because it's part of a plan doesn't mean that it will get enough support to pass.”

That’s just beautiful!! I feel better voting for Kerry now that he has a plan that will never get passed. This is just like so much of Kerry, promises that will not get implemented because it’s too difficult or were just said at the moment to get votes.
penzt8 Offline
#20 Posted:
Joined: 06-05-2000
Posts: 1,771
"Toward this end, it will raise the minimum wage to $7 an hour by 2007 so that a family of four with a full-time worker would no longer be forced to raise their children in poverty."

First, why are these people procreating when they don't have the means to care for their children in the first place. They are creating this problem, not me. If people had a little self control and sense of responsibility they wouldn't be in this situation.

What makes you think that a guy making $7 or even $10 an hour can afford to raise a family of 4? They'll still be sucking taxpayer money in the form of food stamps or some other subsidized benefit such as housing or tax credits.

I'll kick in a little extra next year if the government starts scheduling male and female sterilization programs to those who are receiving welfare checks and food stamps.





Charlie Offline
#21 Posted:
Joined: 06-16-2002
Posts: 39,751
Maybe the Democrats expect the entire family of four to work at 7 bucks an hour and quadrouple their income!

Agree what in the hell is a guy making minimum wage doing with a family to begin with! Let alone 4 people in the family!

The math does not calculate into anything remotely plausible!

Charlie
SteveS Offline
#22 Posted:
Joined: 01-13-2002
Posts: 8,751
=================================================================
Author: Charlie Date: 09/08/2004 12:53 PM
The math does not calculate into anything remotely plausible!
=================================================================
The Dems figure it calculates into votes ... there are a great many fuzzy-thinkers in the US who buy into their bullsh** ... one need only to read the letters to the editor in a newspaper to see the proof of that ...

Years ago, Hubert Humphrey quite bluntly said it best when he told the Democratic convention that no one would vote for Scrooge if Santa Claus were running against him ... and, the give-away programs the Dems had created (and would continue to create) made them the party of Santa Claus

'nuff said
00camper Offline
#23 Posted:
Joined: 07-11-2003
Posts: 2,326
cavallo,
There won't be more people buying flowers from grond because everything else will cost more, too. When worker wages increase, the retail price of the things workers produce will also increase.

The Democrats all say they're against outsourcing and against companies shifting production outside the USA. An increase in the minimum wage will simply increase the things Democrats say they're against. Go figure.
CWFoster Offline
#24 Posted:
Joined: 12-12-2003
Posts: 5,414
grond: i wouldn't worry about it. a min wage hike takes a hellova lot of work to get passed; just because it's part of a plan doesn't mean that it will get enough support to pass. - The minimum wage will pass before the tax cuts to the middle class, the capital gains exemption for small business startup, and the ending of the tax deferral for corporations outsourcing jobs. That's the lesson we should have learned already from the "buy votes with other peoples money" mentality that reigns in DC.

but if the economy improves, you have more people buying your product, and your profit goes up and up and up. hell, even folks earning min wage can buy your stuff now -- that's good, no? ;) -If I have two bananas, and you have two dollars, the price of a banana is $1, Right? But if you have four dollars the price of the banana just went up. Since the price of the gas to get it to market, the wages of the driver who took it there, the cost of the truck he took it in, and the administration of all that which is largely based on a percentage went up too, so now you cant afford the banana at all!

btw, though, if you get so broke from it that you can't buy cigars, i'll be glad to send some to you. :)

i just wonder if any of you middle class folks noticed that there are tax breaks for YOU in there that bush isn't offering up? - Bush IS offering them up, he just beleives EVERYBODY ought to keep more of what they make!

if you're in the top 2% of monied people in this country (and i don't see donald trump here), your tax break will be gone -- if not your taxes will be LESS. i don't know why mid-class folks don't find that encouraging. -I'm not about to cry over Donald Trump, or Bill Gates, but if you take away 50% or more of someones earnings, they are liable to sit back on the billions that they already have, and not invest to make more, and investing to make more at that level involve R&D, new production facilities, new supply chains, and more new jobs! That's what worked for Reagan!
Charlie Offline
#25 Posted:
Joined: 06-16-2002
Posts: 39,751
Once again, what difference does it make which way Kerry (JfK) stands on an issue, if you just wait a day or so he will then jump to your side of the fence! Cannot understand why anyone would vote for this spineless, flip flopper in the first place!

Oh, most Heroes do not advertise the fact that they are heroes, their actions speak for them, something else that Kerry just doesn't understand!

Charlie
cigarsmokin Offline
#26 Posted:
Joined: 04-14-2004
Posts: 272
Is Kerry going to make his wife bring back her Heinze companies that have been outsourced? All 57 of them.

cigarsmokin
GB
Cavallo Offline
#27 Posted:
Joined: 01-05-2004
Posts: 2,796
kerry didn't say it wouldn't get passed; *i* did. it takes quite awhile for min wage laws to be raised, and there are some states that have no laws.

if you're exempt from min wages, then the hypothetical situation that paying fifty cents more per hour is going to drive you to poverty doesn't hold water. :) and yes, you will be able to find people to work for less than that. happens all the time.

you folks realize that the same arguments crop up every time there's a raise in min wage, and yet --- none of these "it'll be ruinous!" situations have happened.

your big mac is still less than $2. :)
Cavallo Offline
#28 Posted:
Joined: 01-05-2004
Posts: 2,796
btw, clive, 2 whoppers here cost $2.99 -- even less than that $3.65. :)
grond Offline
#29 Posted:
Joined: 06-07-2003
Posts: 738
Cavallo,

Minimum wage is minimum wage. Certain segements of the economy are exempt (farming for one). That doesn't mean that raising the minimum wage will not have an impact on farming.

I have already given you the example of why I would have to raise my wages on my workers if the minimum wage is increased. I didn't just make this up. The last time the minimum was increased, I upped my entire payscale at the shop. If it happens again, I will do the same. I will then correspondingly increase my prices to try to compensate and keep my fingers crossed that Walmart will raise their prices also.

A small business can only take so much abuse. Mandated healthcare coverage, mandatory family leave, mandatory flex time, etc. are all issues that are truly great ideas but... someone has to pay for them. My shop grosses $300,000 a year. Payroll is the better part of $125,000, inventory is another $100,000, fixed expenses tag another $25,000 - $35,000. That leaves me with income of around $50,000. Minimum wage increases (as I've already illustrated) would cost me $13,000.

Question:
If someone cuts your pay by 27% are you going to stay with the job or seek employment elsewhere? If my profit is cut by $13,000 (27%) I'm going to look into doing something else which is going to leave 7 workers (3 full time and 4 part time) out of work. Again, multiply this by hundreds and thousands of businesses in my same predicament and you'll see how pervasive this will become. Raising the minimum wage will:
1) increase prices
2) increase unemployment
3) increase proverty

Those are the real facts from a guy who lives this crap day in and day out. Anyone can argue with me about it but they'll be wrong... I live it.
Cavallo Offline
#30 Posted:
Joined: 01-05-2004
Posts: 2,796
grond, i don't intend to argue with you about it. it's your biz, it's your life, and i respect your opinion about it.

thing is, the way things are set up right now, small business are having a tough time of it, too. i think our country needs to do a LOT more for small businesses than they are right now -- including exemptions on things that are mandatory for larger corporations (like walmart).

the way its set up, the walmarts ALWAYS have an edge on small businesses when you look at it from the dollar POV. they have the power to undercut you pricewise because of their size.

what ultimately makes the difference in employment isn't going to be the difference between $6.50 and $7 an hour -- it comes down to loyalty. i'd be willing to be that you don't have nearly the turnover, comparitively, that walmart has. why? because i'm willing to bet that you don't cheat your employees, screw them over on the clock, have crappy policies that make no sense, are unforgiving when it comes to a sick day here and there, etc. :)

i've worked as the administrator of two small-ish companies, and i've seen how things work. one was big enough to have to meet fed demands; the other was not. in security, we paid guards $5 an hour to work crappy hours in crappy and dangerous conditions, and they stuck around with us even though they could make $7-8 flipping burgers. had zero to do with money -- they were doing more work for less pay. why? 1) they knew their jobs were secure with us and that we'd give them all the hours we could. 2) they were loyal because of how myself and the other captains treated them. 3) they saw it as paying their dues so they could advance -- either within the company or going into full law enforcement -- they saw a future with us.

i do understand where you're coming from, grond, but honestly, i think that a small business owner has more leverage with the above things than he has with what he can pay wage-wise.
Cavallo Offline
#31 Posted:
Joined: 01-05-2004
Posts: 2,796
btw, grond, if you ever want some free help with advertising and promotion (making ads, coupons, flyers, etc.), give me a holla. :)
bloody spaniard Offline
#32 Posted:
Joined: 03-14-2003
Posts: 43,802
Cavallo, I agree with you. I parted ways with my fellow "socialist" (you break me up, hog LOL), Pat Buchanan on this issue. IMHO, I like the idea of an increased minimum wage.

I work 70-90 hours per week but earn in the six figures--despite dubya's recklessness costing me another six figures in lost income over the last three years.

My small company always starts people at $10+/hour depending on experience so the minimum wage issue is moot with us. We also make sure that our contractors are well compensated. In fact, the sub-contractors sometimes make more on a project than we do. Call me a socialist but our contracts are fulfilled in a timely, cost-effective manner. Everyone wins.

I am not an accountant nor do I play one. My bookkeeper and my CPA could argue the case better than I.
HOWEVER, I do know that the additional (increased) expenses alluded to above, for mimimum wage increases, are somewhat minimal.

If I'm not mistaken, Federal unemployment taxes are .008 x (not exceeding) $8,500 income, and the state's (Maryland) version is based on .014 times the same income limit. The Employer's FICA (SS) cost is .0765 x the employee's income--the employee paying the other .0765. I don't necessarily like paying this to the Government, especially the Social Security ponzi scheme, but it's a small sacrifice to keep the system operating.

I truly believe that the Government should offer small businesses more tax breaks and "incentives", so that we can offer livable wages and better insurance coverage to the worker.

So yeah, my heart goes out to you, but I put my employees/contractors before my cigar habit. If I have to do without, so that they can have a better life, so be it.

I have probably forgotten something, but I've got to get back to work. LOL! (Such is the American life- you work till you drop) LOL (some more)

blood
grond Offline
#33 Posted:
Joined: 06-07-2003
Posts: 738
Blood,

I'm sure your CPA would argue with you that a 10% increase in wages wouldn't harm you... and regardless of what you think... minimum wage increases will drive all payscales up. It will impact me quicker and with more direct effect since my average hourly wage paid is around $8.50 but it will also have a proportionate effect on your $10.00+ workers at some point down the line.

Cavallo,

In 1986, I made over $55,000 from the same business that is making me $50,000 now. Please don't tell me that my business and others like me (of which there are thousands) will manage to get by and won't REALLY be effected by this small hike in the minimum wage. You just haven't looked at the figures I posted above or you just chose to ignore them. They are factual figres and not hypothetical. And, for another thing, the new minimum wage being talked about is $7.00/hr. If it goes to that figure... all my numbers previously quoted are wayyyyyy low.

You are right though... increasing the minimum wage will not hurt the Walmarts and the Targets of the world. It will simply drive all the other small guys in the markets out of the business so that you'll only have those outlets and their superlative customer service to utilize.

Until I hear a Democratic candidate who has a "visionary" plan to help me... I'll stick with the lower tax party... thank you very much.
CWFoster Offline
#34 Posted:
Joined: 12-12-2003
Posts: 5,414
The bottom line is that the Democrats will raise the minimum wage, throw money at the rest of the problems, turn a blind eye to shady accounting procedures (remember, Enron "made" most of their money under Clinton, they got CAUGHT under Bush!) The minimum wage will buy the CNC votes for the next Congressional race, and the rest of the problems will still be there, because if they actually solved them, they wouldn't have the "have-nots" to play off against the "haves" that they so heavily depend on in their political campaigns. Remember Al Gore promising to reform education? What had he and Clinton BEEN doing for eight years?
ilovemaui Offline
#35 Posted:
Joined: 10-24-2003
Posts: 48
I think the important thing is recognize who is considered "rich". By most standards a family of four with two working parents making $75,000 per year are rich. These are the people Kerry's tax increase will hurt the most.

When are people going to wake up and realize that the dems do this in every election. They can't win on their own merits so they have pit one group against another. If its not race it's income. They have to put people in groups and keep them there or they have no base.
Charlie Offline
#36 Posted:
Joined: 06-16-2002
Posts: 39,751
Simple: Tas and Spend!

Charlie
Cavallo Offline
#37 Posted:
Joined: 01-05-2004
Posts: 2,796
maui -- i beg to differ. if you're in the top 2% of $ makers in this country, bush's tax breaks help you. if you're not, eh, not so much. kerry's talking "rich" as in making over $200,000 annually. if you make that much, then you'd probably not like his plan. if you don't make that much, then his plan will help you.
usahog Offline
#38 Posted:
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
This one runs as close to Kerry's projected Econ Plan..
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/9/10/164158.shtml

Friday, Sept. 10, 2004 4:39 p.m. EDT

Kerry Health Plan Would Cost $1 Trillion Over 10 Years

If you ask him, he'll tell you he's no big-government Massachusetts liberal.

But the more Americans learn about what Sen. John Kerry wants to do if he is elected president in November, the more they understand he is a true tax-and-spender.
So it is with his health care proposals.

Making an impassioned plea to get some 44 million uninsured Americans coverage is one thing, but such coverage must be paid for by somebody.

In John Kerry's world, that somebody is anybody who earns a living.

According to a study of Kerry's plan by the National Center for Policy Analysis (NCPA), it would cost American taxpayers $1 trillion over the next decade alone, just to insure the two-thirds of Americans who are currently without coverage.

Worse, his plan "would virtually destroy the individual and small-group health insurance markets" while "most Americans would not be able to remain in the private health plan they have today," said the study's authors, John Goodman and Devon Herrick.

There are more problems with Kerry's plan:

# More than half the money it would take to fund Kerry's ambitious plan would go to subsidize moving people already in private insurance plans to publicly funded plans by expanding Medicaid and State Children's Health Insurance Programs (CHIP) for the poor.

# Employers also would get taxpayer-provided subsidies, even if they didn't insure a single additional employee.

# People going from private plans to government-funded plans like Medicaid would end up with fewer choices among doctors, longer waits at doctors' offices and clinics, and medical care rationing.

# Others would be exposed to a system of managed competition that over-provides care to healthy people while underserving sick and poor people.

# It would "almost certainly" lead to a new round of health care inflation, while federal spending alone would increase by about $100 billion a year.

"The bottom line is that it's entirely possible to spend $1 trillion and not reduce the number of uninsured," says Goodman, the NCPA's president, adding that the quality of care would suffer under the Kerry proposal.

The study also found that since there wouldn't be any increase in health care providers and suppliers, the additional money would likely simply buy higher health care prices.

While Kerry advocates more government control of medicine via funding mechanisms, others criticize this "socialistic" approach to medicine.

They favor a health care system controlled by physicians, not "managed care" insurance companies, and believe competition created by a system whereby consumers had to pay for care themselves would be a much better alternative. And, they argue, such a "free-market approach" would ultimately drive prices downward.

The concept is described in an essay written by Jacob G. Hornberger, for the Future of Freedom Foundation, a non-partisan organization promoting individual rights.

In his essay "The Real Free-Market Approach to Health Care," Hornberger quotes libertarian-minded economist Ludwig von Mises, who wrote, "Authors of economics books, essays, articles, and political platforms demand interventionist measures before they are taken, but once they have been imposed no one likes them.

"Then everyone — usually even the authorities responsible for them — call them insufficient and unsatisfactory. Generally the demand then arises for the replacement of unsatisfactory interventions by other, more suitable measures. And once the new demands have been met, the same scenario begins all over again."

Says Hornberger, "No words could more accurately describe the nature of America’s so-called health care crisis. After decades of governmental intervention into the health care arena, the failures are apparent for all to see. But rather than root out the cause of the problem, Americans are demanding that government do something about it."

For his part, John Kerry appears ready to repeat the cycle.

How is he going to save the Economy by adding more to it??

Hog
Thom Offline
#39 Posted:
Joined: 12-08-2003
Posts: 6,117
www.usnewswire.com

95 percent of small business owner making $200,000 (AGI) even if they do not create any jobs

KERRY NET TAX CUT INCLUDING EFFECTS OF REPEAL OF THE BUSH TAX CUTS FOR FAMILIES MAKING OVER $200,000 AND THE NEW JOBS TAX CREDIT: No tax change

BUSH TAX CUT: No tax change

---

A small business owner making $100,000 who hires 1 additional workers making $30,000

KERRY NET TAX CUT INCLUDING EFFECTS OF REPEAL OF THE BUSH TAX CUTS FOR FAMILIES MAKING OVER $200,000 AND THE NEW JOBS TAX CREDIT: $2,295 tax cut

BUSH TAX CUT: No tax cut

---

A small business owner making $250,000 who hires 2 additional workers making $30,000

KERRY NET TAX CUT INCLUDING EFFECTS OF REPEAL OF THE BUSH TAX CUTS FOR FAMILIES MAKING OVER $200,000 AND THE NEW JOBS TAX CREDIT: $2,739 tax cut

BUSH TAX CUT: No tax cut

---

A small business owner making $500,000 who hires 4 additional workers making $50,000

KERRY NET TAX CUT INCLUDING EFFECTS OF REPEAL OF THE BUSH TAX CUTS FOR FAMILIES MAKING OVER $200,000 AND THE NEW JOBS TAX CREDIT: $2,969 tax cut

BUSH TAX CUT: No tax cut
usahog Offline
#40 Posted:
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
Thom... Grond already explained this with hands on experiance in another thread... which news analisis was the financial wizard who figured this one out??

your buying into Kerry's sinking plan hook line and sinker.. but thats ok... Kerry has a bill out to save the Tuna!!!

download the Our_Plan-For_America from kerry's website and read it... it will do you good... LOL

Hog
Thom Offline
#41 Posted:
Joined: 12-08-2003
Posts: 6,117
It's the dishonesty, stupid. The real issue in the National Guard story isn't what George W. Bush did three decades ago. It's the recent pattern of lies: his assertions that he fulfilled his obligations when he obviously didn't, the White House's repeated claims that it had released all of the relevant documents when it hadn't.

It's the same pattern of dishonesty, this time involving personal matters that the public can easily understand, that some of us have long seen on policy issues, from global warming to the war in Iraq. On budget matters, which is where I came in, serious analysts now take administration dishonesty for granted.

It wasn't always that way. Three years ago, those of us who accused the administration of cooking the budget books were ourselves accused, by moderates as well as by Bush loyalists, of being "shrill." These days the coalition of the shrill has widened to include almost every independent budget expert.

For example, back in February the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities accused the Bush administration of, in effect, playing three-card monte with budget forecasts. It pointed out that the administration's deficit forecast was far above those of independent analysts, and suggested that this exaggeration was deliberate.

"Overstating the 2004 deficit," the center wrote, "could allow the president to announce significant 'progress' on the deficit in late October - shortly before Election Day - when the Treasury Department announces the final figures."

Was this a wild accusation from a liberal think tank? No, it's conventional wisdom among experts. Two months ago Stanley Collender, a respected nonpartisan analyst, warned: "At some point over the next few weeks, the Office of Management and Budget will release the administration's midsession budget review and try to convince everyone the federal deficit is falling. Don't believe them."

He went on to echo the center's analysis. The administration's standard procedure, he said, is to initially issue an unrealistically high deficit forecast, which is "politically motivated or just plain bad." Then, when the actual number comes in below the forecast, officials declare that the deficit is falling, even though it's higher than the previous year's deficit.

Goldman Sachs says the same. Last month one of its analysts wrote that "the Office of Management and Budget has perfected the art of underpromising and overperforming in terms of its near-term budget deficit forecasts. This creates the impression that the deficit is narrowing when, in fact, it will be up sharply."

In other words, many reputable analysts think that the Bush administration routinely fakes even its short-term budget forecasts for the purposes of political spin. And the fakery in its long-term forecasts is much worse.

The administration claims to have a plan to cut the deficit in half over the next five years. But even Bruce Bartlett, a longtime tax-cut advocate, points out that "projections showing deficits falling assume that Bush's tax cuts expire on schedule." But Mr. Bush wants those tax cuts made permanent. That is, the administration has a "plan" to reduce the deficit that depends on Congress's not passing its own legislation.

Sounding definitely shrill, Mr. Bartlett says that "anyone who thinks we can overcome our fiscal mess without higher taxes is in denial." Far from backing down on his tax cuts, however, Mr. Bush is proposing to push the budget much deeper into the red with privatization programs that purport to offer something for nothing.

As Newsweek's Allan Sloan writes, "The president didn't exactly burden us with details about paying for all this. It's great marketing: show your audience the goodies but not the price tag. It's like going to the supermarket, picking out your stuff and taking it home without stopping at the checkout line to pay. The bill? That will come later."

Longtime readers will remember that that's exactly what I said, shrilly, about Mr. Bush's proposals during the 2000 campaign. Once again, he's running on the claim that 2 - 1 = 4.

So what's the real plan? Some not usually shrill people think that Mr. Bush will simply refuse to face reality until it comes crashing in: Paul Volcker, the former Federal Reserve chairman, says there's a 75 percent chance of a financial crisis in the next five years.

Nobody knows what Mr. Bush would really do about taxes and spending in a second term. What we do know is that on this, as on many matters, he won't tell the truth.

Paul Krugman
usahog Offline
#42 Posted:
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
"It's the dishonesty, stupid. The real issue in the National Guard story isn't what George W. Bush did three decades ago. It's the recent pattern of lies: his assertions that he fulfilled his obligations when he obviously didn't, the White House's repeated claims that it had released all of the relevant documents when it hadn't."

Does he have an Honorable Discharge? "Case Closed"

Kerry has an Honorable Discharge one of them was as recent as 2001.. explain that one??

Hog
Thom Offline
#43 Posted:
Joined: 12-08-2003
Posts: 6,117
If having an honorable discharge makes the "case closed", then why are you harping on Kerry's record? As you admit, he has one too.
grond Offline
#44 Posted:
Joined: 06-07-2003
Posts: 738
[A small business owner making $100,000 who hires 1 additional workers making $30,000
KERRY NET TAX CUT INCLUDING EFFECTS OF REPEAL OF THE BUSH TAX CUTS FOR FAMILIES MAKING OVER $200,000 AND THE NEW JOBS TAX CREDIT: $2,295 tax cut
BUSH TAX CUT: No tax cut]

Grond's comment, "HOLY ****E!! I have to spend $30,000 to get a $2,295 tax cut. Where in hell is the money to hire this person going to come from?? Especially with me having to increase payscale across the board because of this Bozo's promise to increase minimum wage!!"

[A small business owner making $250,000 who hires 2 additional workers making $30,000
KERRY NET TAX CUT INCLUDING EFFECTS OF REPEAL OF THE BUSH TAX CUTS FOR FAMILIES MAKING OVER $200,000 AND THE NEW JOBS TAX CREDIT: $2,739 tax cut
BUSH TAX CUT: No tax cut]

Grond's Comments, "Double Holy ****e!! Now I've got to hire two employees and pay them $30,000 each to get another $2,739 tax cut. Where the $60,000 going to come from to warrant and justify me getting this measly $2,739 tax cut?? Especially with me having to increase payscale across the board because of this Bozo's promise to increase minimum wage!!"

[A small business owner making $500,000 who hires 4 additional workers making $50,000
KERRY NET TAX CUT INCLUDING EFFECTS OF REPEAL OF THE BUSH TAX CUTS FOR FAMILIES MAKING OVER $200,000 AND THE NEW JOBS TAX CREDIT: $2,969 tax cut
BUSH TAX CUT: No tax cut]

Grond's comments, "Holy Quadruple ****e! Now where is the money going to come from to hire 4 additional workers making $50,000 to recoup a tax credit of $2,969. Have you guys ever tried to run a business? Do you have a friggin' clue?? I know Kerry doesn't. He comes from wealth and his tax plan reflects that he is totally out of touch with the wheels that run this economy. Sit down and think about what you're reading before you post such drivel as this. A small business owner has a better chance selling his business and taking the proceeds to Vegas and playing the crap tables than they do of seeing any substantive relieve or assistance from the Kerry Tax Plan."
usahog Offline
#45 Posted:
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
"If having an honorable discharge makes the "case closed", then why are you harping on Kerry's record? As you admit, he has one too."

Because Kerry came home from Vietnam and discredited every Veteran who ever served in Vietnam with his false statements against THEM.. and now with his own actions of his falsified service medals/citations he is doing the very same thing as he did when he returned home....

IMO Kerry is a Lowlife Scum who rides on the shirtails of others and always has... I damn sure don't want him riding on mine!!!

Hog
Thom Offline
#46 Posted:
Joined: 12-08-2003
Posts: 6,117
I'm not one to argue with you that you don't like Kerry. But hasn't W. road shritales to get to where he is now?
grond Offline
#47 Posted:
Joined: 06-07-2003
Posts: 738
Thom,

Please respond to my last post. If you're going to assert that Kerry's plan is good, please address what I, as a small business owner, have said about it.

Thanks....


grond
Cavallo Offline
#48 Posted:
Joined: 01-05-2004
Posts: 2,796
hog: what does anyone's war record have to do with an econ thread?

grond: did you see great tax relief from bush? if so, i would expect you to vote for him. there are other small business owners, however, who got nothing but the shaft from bush -- in fact they got more than the shaft: they LOST a hellova lot of money under bush.

one man's example does not a trend make.
usahog Offline
#49 Posted:
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
"hog: what does anyone's war record have to do with an econ thread?"

Cav if you read a little closer I was answering to Thom post above mine... But I'll take the hit on this one.. I just wanted to threadjack a bit since this thread isn't getting anywhere with anyone LMAO!!!

So what do you think of the False Records the Dems drugg up??? LMAO!!!!

Hog
usahog Offline
#50 Posted:
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
BTW I am also still waiting for Thom to give an answer to gronds post... nice try on your part of the answer Cav.. but I'd like to see numbers not the talk that there are other who got the shaft.. show some numbers... and also list the type business they happen to be in?? I can understand Bloods situation... I see your post to grond as downplaying the situation of his postings and Kerry's Plan all together... I read Kerry and Edwards plan for America... it's a F*9Kin Joke and thats being Nice about it... Download it and read it and tell me this is what you want for your future and grandkids LMFAO!!!!!!!!

Hog
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