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jreddoch Offline
#1 Posted: Thu, Oct 24 2002, 2:05 AM EST
Joined: 12-30-2000
Posts: 1,309
What are your religious views? As for me, I call myself a militant agnostic. I don't know and you don't know either. I am not unsympathetic to man's desire to plumb the infinite and certainly I support many Judeo-Christian values, but I despise organized religion. I didn't suddenly come to this viewpoint. This is where I am right now on a long odyssey that isn't over yet.

I don't want to argue and it would be a waste of time to try to convince me that I'm wrong. I've stated my core belief. Now I invite you to state yours.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#2 Posted: Thu, Oct 24 2002, 2:28 AM EST
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,448
Let's just say I didn't evolve from some primordial ooze. Monkees are STILL monkees, Apes are STILL apes. I feel real bad for anyone that's still in denial or in a non-committal mood on Judgement Day.

jreddoch Offline
#3 Posted: Thu, Oct 24 2002, 3:01 AM EST
Joined: 12-30-2000
Posts: 1,309
and I feel the believing in something only because you're afraid of the consequences of not believing in it is cowardly. I'M NOT SAYING YOU'RE A COWARD. Maybe you have some other reason for what you believe. I haven't found one.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#4 Posted: Thu, Oct 24 2002, 3:35 AM EST
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,448
I believe that God gave the World His only Son so that we could share an eternal life with Him.

John 3:16

And that's all I've got to say about that. Had I known that my comments would be used as fodder I wouldn't have posted them! There was NO disrespect meant towards you OR your beliefs JR.
jreddoch Offline
#5 Posted: Thu, Oct 24 2002, 3:43 AM EST
Joined: 12-30-2000
Posts: 1,309
DrMaddVibe, I meant no disrespect. I wasn't using your comments as fodder or trying to make a joke. You were saying what you believe and I was posting a response. It bothers me that you think I was being vindictive. Why can't people discuss this topic without anger? What hope for the human race is there if people of different beliefs can't sit down and discuss them without anger?

DMV, I apologize for any insult I may have unwittingly offered you.

Everyone else please disregard this thread. I don't want to be the cause of anger and bad feelings. I should have known better.
SteveS Offline
#6 Posted: Thu, Oct 24 2002, 5:52 AM EST
Joined: 01-13-2002
Posts: 8,751
JR, I think anger is THE common denominator one finds surely and quickly in a discussion on differing beliefs ... that anger has consistently translated into violence and war since the dawn of history ... anger at those with differing beliefs is the root of the problem in the middle-east right now, irrespective of what the President says about their hating us because we've got freedom and his detractors saying that it's about their oil ...

The existance of Israel and our support of that country is the greatest sticking point of all in the hatred those people have for us ... not that our conspicuous consumption isn't a factor, but religious differences account for the biggest portion of the gap between us ...

My own beliefs are poorly defined ... while I don't have a clear-cut belief in divinity, I don't have a DIS-belief either and my lack of urgency in reaching a belief somehow seems to anger people on BOTH sides of the question ... being a native of Utah where more than half the population is of a demanding religion and the other half is consequently equally strong in THEIR expression of their differing beliefs, you can well imagine why I was able to move away from the mountains there which I love dearly ...

It seems to me that for some reason that I've never been able to understand, NOT taking issue with people over their beliefs isn't enough ... too many seem to demand your agreement with their views ...

Oddly enough, I think the whole topic is related to the thing that binds the participants in this forum together ... our love of cigars is in some respects like a religion and we're each having to take a stand against all the disbelievers around us on a daily basis ... coming here is, for a lot of us, the equivilent of attending church ... we are surrounded by people whose 'beliefs' are like our own and we join together in a fellowship to praise the glory of cigars ...
jreddoch Offline
#7 Posted: Thu, Oct 24 2002, 6:06 AM EST
Joined: 12-30-2000
Posts: 1,309
Steve, you're the Pope of the Church of The Big Cigar!
SteveS Offline
#8 Posted: Thu, Oct 24 2002, 6:28 AM EST
Joined: 01-13-2002
Posts: 8,751
Hallelujah, JW ... the good Saints of Maduro, Oscuro, Criollo and Corojo be praised ... blessed be the name of the Virgin Sun Grown ...
jreddoch Offline
#9 Posted: Thu, Oct 24 2002, 6:47 AM EST
Joined: 12-30-2000
Posts: 1,309
And Our lady Of The Perpetual Cigar.
Charlie Offline
#10 Posted: Thu, Oct 24 2002, 7:30 AM EST
Joined: 06-16-2002
Posts: 39,751
Religion really gets people angry no matter what their beliefs may be! Look at all the wars and battles fought over religion!!!!

For the record, I believe in God!

Charlie
jazzman Offline
#11 Posted: Thu, Oct 24 2002, 7:37 AM EST
Joined: 11-06-2000
Posts: 1,012
Me too...
cwilhelmi Offline
#12 Posted: Thu, Oct 24 2002, 8:21 AM EST
Joined: 07-24-2001
Posts: 2,739
I have had a long and sometimes tumultuous road through discerning my faith or lack thereof. I was raised Catholic and was a firm believer going into high school. But I’ve always been a free thinker and a follower of logic. In high school and college I kept an open mind and because of my search for logic noticed my “beliefs” changing.

Through my spiritual travels I have found myself, and now openly define/identify myself as an atheist. Like JR, I have a core value system similar to the Judeo Christian beliefs, but it’s only because I have thought through the issues/values and decided for myself how I stand on the issues.

I also whole-heartedly agree with JR on the issue of “faith.” My common phrase is this, “A person who cannot, or will not, question their beliefs and therefore be able to justify their beliefs has nothing to believe in except what they’re told.” I have respect for ANYONE that has gone through this self questioning process and has affirmed their beliefs, no matter what those beliefs are, be they Christian, Mormon, etc… As long as those beliefs are not the detrimental sort that we see in the Middle East, live and let live I say!!

chris
Mr.Mean Offline
#13 Posted: Thu, Oct 24 2002, 10:25 AM EST
Joined: 05-16-2001
Posts: 3,025
My religous road has had some interesting turns. During my teen years, I would spend some time each summer at the Catholic seminary, studying, and determining if the preisthood was right for me. After my fourth summer, I realized, my ambition was not to be a priest, but in fact to be called "Father Mean" or "Reverend Mean".
jreddoch Offline
#14 Posted: Thu, Oct 24 2002, 10:44 AM EST
Joined: 12-30-2000
Posts: 1,309
Bless me, Father Mean for I have sinned. I started a controversial thread. What is my penance?
SteveS Offline
#15 Posted: Thu, Oct 24 2002, 10:55 AM EST
Joined: 01-13-2002
Posts: 8,751
well, you asked for this, JR ...

Your pennance will be to send each of us a cigar ... LOL
jazzman Offline
#16 Posted: Thu, Oct 24 2002, 11:02 AM EST
Joined: 11-06-2000
Posts: 1,012
How did I know that was coming?
eleltea Offline
#17 Posted: Thu, Oct 24 2002, 11:25 AM EST
Joined: 03-03-2002
Posts: 4,562
I had a Christian upbringing, and would like to be a true believer, in the best sense of that word. Intellect gets in the way. One of the questions I keep grappling with is: if I were God, and created a bunch of complicated but simple beings, would I allow the ones born 2000 years after my last direct communication with the world burn and suffer for eternity unless they firmly believed I existed? What's the big deal about someone believing something? I might have more of an appreciation for people who didn't know what to believe but were kind to old people and had a positive influence on children. The idea of a good and just God who knows the future allowing some to be born just so they can suffer eternal damnation is not very appealing to me. What would a bad God do? Why weren't we offered our choice of 72 years of Free Will or an eternity in Paradise? Wasn't Free Will just forced on us?

Who today has more faith than the fundamentalist muslim? And who is more evil from a Judeo-Christian perspective?

I don't really want to offend anyone either (okay, screw fundamentalist muslims and TV 'evangelists'). I do enjoy discussions of religion and politics, the two great taboos of those who wish to get along. Just my 5 cents.
Mr.Mean Offline
#18 Posted: Thu, Oct 24 2002, 11:55 AM EST
Joined: 05-16-2001
Posts: 3,025
Yes JR, you must send Steve a cigar. In fact you should send all Steve's a cigar. You now have the opportunity to spread the good word to all the Steve's. From this action will spring forth eternal peace. Or enter four spring peas, I'm not sure.
E-Chick Offline
#19 Posted: Thu, Oct 24 2002, 12:09 PM EST
Joined: 06-15-2002
Posts: 4,877
I'm your prime example of a good Christian gone bad...there's hope for me yet!
xrundog Offline
#20 Posted: Thu, Oct 24 2002, 12:49 PM EST
Joined: 01-17-2002
Posts: 2,212
I believe in a creator whom I call God. I believe God cares about us and gave us free will. The reason there are bad things in this world is because of free will. God lets us screw things up because to him(her) it's no biggie. It will all get fixed in the end. I question the divnity of Jesus. He was a tuned in guy, no question. I embrace his teachings. But John is WAY out of step with the other gospels. I wonder why that is. I suspect it may have something to do with the political agenda of Constantine and the early Popes. In early depictions, Jesus and the Saints are a lot like Jupiter and the Roman Pantheon. It is food for thought. The Trinity? That is a muddled construct for sure. Salvation through Jesus? Sounds like a selling point to me. The baptists say all works are for naught if you don't accept Jesus as savior. I don't buy that. I think works count for a lot as long as your heart and mind are right. Believe what Jesus taught. Not what other people taught about Jesus. Put your faith in God period. How can that be wrong? That's what I think. Have fun with it!
Danny Offline
#21 Posted: Thu, Oct 24 2002, 1:43 PM EST
Joined: 06-21-2002
Posts: 613
If God is what he's said to be, when you're time comes, he'll look into your heart and judge you accordingly...if God isn't what he's said to be, it won't matter. Just be the best you can, do the best you can, be an asset to the human race, and the rest will take care of itself
usahog Offline
#22 Posted: Thu, Oct 24 2002, 4:10 PM EST
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
This is a good topic to touch on.. although I will wait until I have had a little less to drink because I am a strong believer in God and Jesus and I want my post to be without mis spellings

Hog
bgsearfoss Offline
#23 Posted: Thu, Oct 24 2002, 5:14 PM EST
Joined: 11-14-2001
Posts: 45
I have been a long time cigarbid user but only frequent the forums to peruse the threads. This one however, I cannot pass up. I am without a doubt, a Conservative and registered Republican but it all ends for me at religion. I have recently become a big fan of philosophy, and as such have begun to question anything and everything. I have nothing but support for believers and agnostics alike but I have come to grips with the simple fact that I am an Atheist. If I am wrong and I wind up burning in hell I can and will accept it when the time comes. For now I am content to believe that everything happens as a result of something else (cause & effect) and that maybe I did indeed, start out as a puddle of primordial ooze. Then again, maybe not...
jreddoch Offline
#24 Posted: Thu, Oct 24 2002, 5:34 PM EST
Joined: 12-30-2000
Posts: 1,309
Thanks, Enigima. I admire anyone who has the guts to admit an unpopular belief. Even more, I admire someone who says "I don't know".
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#25 Posted: Thu, Oct 24 2002, 5:45 PM EST
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
jreddoch

i just glanced at your post and most of the other's, so i would not be influenced to respond, but rather to give my opinions.

the old and new testaments were written by many and reinterpeted by many to codify the myths handed down from father to son. that is why there are so many anthologies, the judeo-christian one being called the "bible."

gods are made in man's images to explain the unexplainable.

gods are made in man's image because people are afraid to die. the idea of losing one's identity, one's soul, one's awarness of one's self, is so threatening, a belief in a life after death and a god who will be there for you, is solace.

anyone that does not recognize darwin as an explaination of how we evolved, has not read him, and want's a simple answer, requiring no thought. there is something practicle to be said about that.

genes are the life force and we are just the carriers.

your family and friends love and appreciate you, but if you think you are of some importance in whatever the scheme of things is, go look at the sky.

how is religion going to deal with the other species from other planets when contact is made on a larger scale.

we are really not much more than a bunch of protien capable of feeling. it is better to feel good more than we feel bad.





RICKAMAVEN Offline
#26 Posted: Thu, Oct 24 2002, 5:55 PM EST
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
Enigma

my sons were raised without the benefit or destruction of religion.

my youngest and his wife have a mystical philosophy, which makes them content. i have no idea or interest in knowing what it is all about.

my oldest recently married a recently converted christian, born again, is her phrase. she does not understand why he is a moral person, without the influence of a religious background. i have no idea what his approach to religion might be, or even if he has one.

what you said about burning in hell was sort of something his wife asked. she said my son and her were married for eternity and doesn't know what will happen to their love and marriage if she believes in an afterlife and he doesn't.

i told her one of them would get a surprise.
tailgater Offline
#27 Posted: Thu, Oct 24 2002, 6:43 PM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
JR, You stated in the original post: "I don't know and you don't know either".
The beautiful thing about religion is the a true believer DOES "know". It's not rhetoric. It's not simply the party line. It's a TRUE belief.
Just because we can't prove it doesn't mean we don't know it to be true.
That is why some (many) try to impose their religious beliefs on others.
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#28 Posted: Thu, Oct 24 2002, 6:58 PM EST
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
tailgater

Just because we can't prove it doesn't mean we don't know it to be true. ABSOLUTELY CORRECT.

That is why some (many) try to impose their religious beliefs on others. AYE, THERE'S THE RUB.
Danny Offline
#29 Posted: Fri, Oct 25 2002, 1:05 AM EST
Joined: 06-21-2002
Posts: 613
believing in something is called faith. you believe you have direct knowledge, but by definition, it just isn't so
jreddoch Offline
#30 Posted: Fri, Oct 25 2002, 3:16 AM EST
Joined: 12-30-2000
Posts: 1,309
Oh, this is turning into an interesting thread. And suprisingly civil for the most part. Rick, you eloquently summed up my belief system. Doubt is not to be feared, but embraced. It is liberation. Danny, absolutely right. Faith is NOT the same thing as knowledge. Some primitives believe the Earth is flat. Does that make it so?

So many people reject the idea of evolution without knowing a thing about it. Every time I hear someone say "Man didn't evolve from monkeys", I want to scream "Darwin never said that!"! Current primates (man included) had a common ancestor, which is a very different fact. this is why humans and the great apes, particularly chimpanzees have greater than 95% genetic similarity.

I have read Genesis. Have those of you who reject the idea of evolution ever read any of the primary texts on the subject? I'm not talking about books by fundamentalists claiming to disprove eveolution, but The Origin of Species, The Ascent Of Man, Anything by Stephen Jay Gould, or the wonderful The Blind Watchmaker by Richard Dawkins.

I was on the fence about evolution until I read these books and took a college Genetics course. After that there was no further doubt.

Despite all this, I am not an atheist. I can easily believe in some transcendant force or first cause. I was raised in a fundamentalist Baptist household. It took me nearly 30 years to free myself from all that fear and manipulation. I don't miss it a bit.
bgsearfoss Offline
#31 Posted: Fri, Oct 25 2002, 4:19 AM EST
Joined: 11-14-2001
Posts: 45
Very interesting postings...The part I love about good, open forum discussions is the opportunity to learn from others viewpoints. Just wanted to thank you all for that.

I've noticed that the last few posts mentioned "knowing" or having "knowledge" of something. Therein lies the problem for me. I believe that what we base our "knowledge" on experiences we have throughout our life. For example, one could argue that we "know" fire is hot because it burns if you get too close. In addition, we can see it, feel it, smell it and sometimes hear it. We base our knowledge on how well it satisfies our sensory perception. Some need less convincing than others and some more. Since religion doesn't satisfy enough senses for me to have knowledge that it is real, I would have to rely on faith which for me is out of the question. I think that we are all very much in control of our own lives and the decisions we make on a daily basis are the ones that lead us to our future. Geeez, I've kinda gotten lost here...
What I'm trying to say is that for me it's about possibility versus probability. The posibility that there is a god versus the probability that there is a god. I am not content to have faith because to me it would mean that I am not in control of my life, that some force were ultimately guiding me to something. This, I just don't believe...
xrundog Offline
#32 Posted: Fri, Oct 25 2002, 6:10 AM EST
Joined: 01-17-2002
Posts: 2,212
Enigma, To believe (Something that cannot be proven can't be known or true, it is believed)in a higher power you don't have to relinquish control. That's what free will is about. You make your choices and are responsible for the consequences. God set things in motion and sat back to watch. HOWEVER, if you ask him for help in a sincere and unselfish way he will give you what you need. I can't prove that. But I believe it. And as you say, based on my own expeience. Besides I find the idea of chaos as the ruling principle of the universe really offensive.
PMoreno349 Offline
#33 Posted: Fri, Oct 25 2002, 10:05 AM EST
Joined: 07-05-2002
Posts: 665
agnostic (àg-nòs´tîk) noun

One who believes that there can be no proof of the existence of God but does not deny the possibility that God exists.
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#34 Posted: Fri, Oct 25 2002, 10:21 AM EST
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
steves

"The existance of Israel and our support of that country is the greatest sticking point of all in the hatred those people have for us".

the jews are always the cause of every evil in the world. maybe it's because we kill christian children and drink their blood in our rituals.
SteveS Offline
#35 Posted: Fri, Oct 25 2002, 10:34 AM EST
Joined: 01-13-2002
Posts: 8,751
Rick ... re: "the jews are always the cause of every evil in the world. maybe it's because we kill christian children and drink their blood in our rituals. "

I don't believe a word of that ... I don't know for a fact that ANY of that is the basis for hatred on the part of Israel's neighbors, but I highly doubt it ...

Most religious-based hatred seems to be based on the simple fact that "they" are different from "us", irrespective of whether the "they" in question are the Jews in Israel, the Catholics in Ireland or any other population group in the world where dis-similarities exist ...
jreddoch Offline
#36 Posted: Fri, Oct 25 2002, 11:19 AM EST
Joined: 12-30-2000
Posts: 1,309
Rick, sounds like a religion I could embrace wholeheartedly.
E-Chick Offline
#37 Posted: Fri, Oct 25 2002, 11:29 AM EST
Joined: 06-15-2002
Posts: 4,877
Rick's one of those there Satanic Jews...or is it Voodoo Jew?
E-Chick Offline
#38 Posted: Fri, Oct 25 2002, 11:30 AM EST
Joined: 06-15-2002
Posts: 4,877
Jew know I'm just joking, dun Jew?
jreddoch Offline
#39 Posted: Fri, Oct 25 2002, 12:36 PM EST
Joined: 12-30-2000
Posts: 1,309
VooDoo Jew. I love it! Where can I go to seminary to be a theologian?
cwilhelmi Offline
#40 Posted: Fri, Oct 25 2002, 1:10 PM EST
Joined: 07-24-2001
Posts: 2,739
Rick - I think you hit the nail on the head earlier. So I’ll give a more detailed description of why I believe what I do…

I feel that religion and the belief in God is a coping mechanism to make life easier, and explain the things that we don't understand or can't comprehend.

In the early days of man events took place that we could not explain, so in order to have causes for these events we developed deities and associated said events with them. If you look at most civilizations religion and the belief in deities evolved in the same pattern. First many animal gods, and then one animal god, then many human(esque) gods and then one human god. These changes in deities evolved as our minds evolved and further complexity was needed. What it boils down to was an explanation for our ignorance. When an apple fell off of a tree it must have been God, then we began to understand gravity and decided it wasn't God.

If you look at the world now and the mental and technological progression that has occurred over time, it’s interesting to notice that reliance on religion and belief in a God has diminished.

I am not trying to push these beliefs on anyone else, just stating some of the reasoning I use to explain why I’m an atheist. As I’ve stated previously, I embrace people of all religions, races, etc., so long as they don’t push their beliefs on me or act detrimentally towards other groups.

chris
bgsearfoss Offline
#41 Posted: Fri, Oct 25 2002, 3:47 PM EST
Joined: 11-14-2001
Posts: 45
Chris, just wanted to thank you for doing a better job explaining my beliefs than I could. I still consider myself an Atheist but it is interesting to note that, as mentioned above (Thanks PMoreno), even one who considers them self an Atheist or full blown Jesus Freak, the existence of a supreme being can neither be proven nor disproved.
Socrates essentially believed that one cannot know anything without first exploring oneself. Hence the expression "Know thyself". I guess I'm still trying to discover answers to these questions.
jreddoch Offline
#42 Posted: Fri, Oct 25 2002, 4:03 PM EST
Joined: 12-30-2000
Posts: 1,309
Enigima, I doubt any of us will ever be able to find answers, but aren't the questions themselves fascinating?
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#43 Posted: Sat, Oct 26 2002, 6:15 AM EST
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
E-Chick

i'll bet you wish you had gone wrong.
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#44 Posted: Sat, Oct 26 2002, 6:20 AM EST
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
Enigma

burning in hell? do you really think there is a place that you will go to where you will be tortured and burnt, because a god has an arch enemy called the devil who competes with him for the "souls" of everyone because they have nothing better to do?
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#45 Posted: Sat, Oct 26 2002, 6:30 AM EST
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
PMoreno349

screw huxley and his definition. an agnostic is one who doesn't waste time trying to deduce whether there is a god or not because it is of no importance to him.

agnostic is a word made up by religious people to define someone who pays no attention to the idea of god or gods or heaven or hell.

i personally couldn't care less what name someone else defines me by. if i am not interested in anything about a god, why should i give a **** what someone else calls me.
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#46 Posted: Sat, Oct 26 2002, 6:49 AM EST
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
jreddoch

don't think for one second that you can't hold your own. you do a hell of a lot better than you think you do.

you explain your viewpoints precisely.

in case no one knows, the same jews that use christian baby's blood to make matzo, created monothiesm. that pissed off a lot of church rulers who thought the path to god had to go though them. rabbi's are teachers. they cannot intercede on your behalf and relieve you of your sins or help you get to the front of the line at the pearly gates.

and like all teachers:

a jew wandering in bethlehem in the old days meets another jew who invites him to come to his home for seder (a diner celebrating the exodus) and to spend the night. in the morning he presents a bill for food and lodging to his guest. the guest is obviously upset by this so they go to the rabbi for help in solving this problem. the rabbi tells the guest he must pay. as they are leaving the guest starts to pay the man who invited him and the man refuses the money. he says i don't want any money, you were my guest, i just wanted you to see what a schmuck we have for a rabbi.

the reason religious jews where something to cover their head is because they will only uncover their head in the presence of god.
CJBully Offline
#47 Posted: Sat, Oct 26 2002, 7:40 AM EST
Joined: 07-31-2002
Posts: 753
My mind is open but it's not for rent...

btw, I didn't read any of the replies to the question
OFinnish Offline
#48 Posted: Sat, Oct 26 2002, 8:33 PM EST
Joined: 10-26-2002
Posts: 9
JESUS SHAVES!!!!
OFinnish Offline
#49 Posted: Sat, Oct 26 2002, 8:34 PM EST
Joined: 10-26-2002
Posts: 9
I am a christian, just not a check your brain in at the door type.
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#50 Posted: Sat, Oct 26 2002, 10:22 PM EST
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
CJBully
i'll bet you peeked.
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