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E-Chick Offline
#51 Posted: Mon, Oct 28 2002, 8:38 AM EST
Joined: 06-15-2002
Posts: 4,877
Rick, maybe I have once or twice...

;)
Rock & Roll Offline
#52 Posted: Mon, Oct 28 2002, 11:20 AM EST
Joined: 10-21-2002
Posts: 23
I think jreddoch and others said it best when thay said... I don't know, and you don't know either.
According to every religion (or lack there of), It is impossible to be a motal man and know if there is a god. Look at any religion and it will tell you that man knows nothing, so how can you expect to know something so great?
We all are agnostics. Some of us more subborn than the rest though.
mkilgus Offline
#53 Posted: Mon, Oct 28 2002, 11:35 AM EST
Joined: 05-20-2002
Posts: 6
I believe that, a very long time ago, two cavemen were sitting on a rock. Along came an eclipse. One of the cavemen cowered down, crying about the end that was sure to come. The other caveman watched him, studying him very carefully. The eclipse passed. The terrified caveman jumped up, screaming in elation; "We are saved! We are not going to die!" The second caveman looked him right in the eyes and said; "Did you see that? I asked god to do that to prove that he speaks through me! Now you know what god and I can do to you unless you do exactly as I say!" The first caveman bowed down to him, trembling, and he said; "I will do what ever you and your god ask of me!" That was the way religion was born.

Michael J. Kilgus
tarheel4lyf Offline
#54 Posted: Mon, Oct 28 2002, 12:01 PM EST
Joined: 09-23-2002
Posts: 2,543
I grew up a Southern Baptist, learning all about "Fire and Brimstone". Throughout my many (28) years, I have come to be entirely confused when it comes to religion. Knowing what I learned, but then seeing things around the world with my own eyes really set the confusion in motion. There are way too many solid, well rooted religions, all of which have similarities too discount the existence of a god. Which one is right? Who knows. I know that I went into the hospital last year around this time, and almost did not come out. There is no explanation for what made me as sick as I was. Thinking about this makes me think about the Latin Phrase "Memento mori". "Remember you must die". I believe in me and that which I can see and feel and smell and taste. Life is too short to make sense of. Live life to the fullest.....tell everyone that you care for and love just how you feel. Never go to bed with a guilty conscience. Everything will come around full circle one day. Did I make ANY kind of sense? I love you guys(gals).
cwilhelmi Offline
#55 Posted: Mon, Oct 28 2002, 4:02 PM EST
Joined: 07-24-2001
Posts: 2,739
Tarheel - I agree with you for the most part. The part I don't agree with is the reasoning that since there are so many religions that there must be a God.

There's no logic in this statement. There are so many religions because great distances, both geographic, period and spatial that separated so many different groups of people and cultures when religion evolved throughout the world. This has no weight in determining whether or not there is a higher power. For hundreds of years the world was believed to be flat, obviously we’ve discovered this to be incorrect.
tailgater Offline
#56 Posted: Mon, Oct 28 2002, 6:45 PM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
Athiest, agnostic, non-believer, whatever.
It's OK to not believe in my God. It's OK to believe there is NO god.
But to use the "world is flat" arguement is ridiculous. Science is the worst argument to support your belief vs. proof theory. Look at the things we "Know" today, versus what we "knew" just a few years ago. "Facts" are CONSTANTLY being disproved. From the smallest unit of matter, to the number of planets in our solar system, to the existence of life beyond our solar system, to what causes aids, to the effects of second hand smoke.
Get real. I could counter your weak argument with my own theory: Since EVERY culture throughout human history has believed in some sort of religion and/or god, the presence of a god is essential to the existence of man.

I don't find myself embracing organized religion as I did when I was younger. But never have I doubted His existence. Despite what some believe, the human brain has room for both science and religion.
JonR Offline
#57 Posted: Mon, Oct 28 2002, 7:19 PM EST
Joined: 02-19-2002
Posts: 9,740
How do know it is a " His " and not a " Hers ". JonR
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#58 Posted: Mon, Oct 28 2002, 8:13 PM EST
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
cwilhelmi
read "flatland" excellent book, witty and makes youm think a little. book on line free at
http://www.geom.umn.edu/~banchoff/Flatland/
tarheel4lyf Offline
#59 Posted: Tue, Oct 29 2002, 12:40 AM EST
Joined: 09-23-2002
Posts: 2,543
These religions have been around for many thousands of years, and have not changed. The idea that the world was flat was due to lack of knowledge, and was changed when science proved it wrong. Science has been so far unable to disprove the idea that there is A god. That is why I cannot say that there is no god, just that I don't know. Hell, I don't know if there is a tomorrow, so I don't worry about it. I take each day as it could be my last. That way, if I wake up the next day, it is a somewhat pleasant surprise.
jd1 Offline
#60 Posted: Tue, Oct 29 2002, 5:37 AM EST
Joined: 02-14-2001
Posts: 3,118
Can't remember where this came from, but it's all I need: "For those that believe in God, no explanation is necessary; for those that don't believe, no explanation will do."

I believe.
E-Chick Offline
#61 Posted: Tue, Oct 29 2002, 7:09 AM EST
Joined: 06-15-2002
Posts: 4,877
Jd, that was excellent...now if I can just remember that quote next time I'm confronted with the religion issue...
cwilhelmi Offline
#62 Posted: Tue, Oct 29 2002, 11:36 AM EST
Joined: 07-24-2001
Posts: 2,739
tailgater - I was just saying that the sheer existence of many religions means nothing as to whether or not there truly is a God. In no way was I pushing my philosophy that there is no higher power, simply stating my dissent to the argument. I wasn't trying to disprove the existence of God either, tarheel is right, it's not possible to "prove" either way.

Glad to see the vehement statements though, and I’m sure you’re logically superior... Try reading the statements next time for what they are and not what you choose to read into them.
jreddoch Offline
#63 Posted: Tue, Oct 29 2002, 3:46 PM EST
Joined: 12-30-2000
Posts: 1,309
One thing I will concede, the universe is a profound mystery. I doubt science or religion will ever explain it. The one advantage some religions have is that they do acknowledge mystery. Maybe the Christians are right, maybe the Hindus are. I just wish there was less posing, sneering, self-righteousness and hypocrisy between the sects and yes, between believers and non-believers.
tailgater Offline
#64 Posted: Tue, Oct 29 2002, 5:57 PM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
CW, I didn't "choose" to read anything into your words. I simply offered a response.
All too often we see single, myopic trends and manipulate the results to support a personal belief.
To suggest that with improved technology there is an equivalent drop in religion would be a subtle hint that religious folks are somehow less intelligent.
I'm not saying that you're calling us stupid, but the inference is there.
A closer look at such trends, however, would also reveal that as technology increases, so does the divorce rate. Are we then to believe that intelligence refutes love?
Don't take this as a slam, I just think it's silly to use single data points to state a case which is totally unrelated.
On a side note, what do you say to someone after they sneeze?
cwilhelmi Offline
#65 Posted: Tue, Oct 29 2002, 7:56 PM EST
Joined: 07-24-2001
Posts: 2,739
tailgater - thought you were simply replying to the most recent post, but it seems like your replying to my previous posts.

I do not believe that "technology" is the single result in the movement away from religion. I think that the increased understanding of our surroundings, continued intellectual development, general problems within organized religion and increased acceptance of non-religious persons have had huge contributions to the continued decrease in religious following. I don't associate religious beliefs with intelligence, most of the intelligent people I know are religious, so it's impossible for me to make that step. Like I said, I'm an atheist, and I'm not going to type 5 pages to prove why I'm an atheist, and I don't want you to either.

When someone sneezes I say, "You're so damn good lookin."
tailgater Offline
#66 Posted: Wed, Oct 30 2002, 4:41 AM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
Funny how you chose "continued intellectual development" as one of the points to make your case. You obviously feel a connection between IQ and faith.


And just for the record, you obviously have never seen me sneeze...
SteveS Offline
#67 Posted: Wed, Oct 30 2002, 6:10 AM EST
Joined: 01-13-2002
Posts: 8,751
It strikes me that there's actually a mix of TWO things being discussed here, although when he first raised the topic, I think JR was asking about our views on the existance of a supreme diety ... and to my mind, that's a different thing than the practice of organized religion.

An old joke I heard first while growing up in Utah concerned a fellow who had died and was being given a tour of Heaven by St. Peter ... as they passed a large building with no windows and a single unmarked door the fellow asked, "what's this building for?" ... St Pete answers in a whisper "Ssshhhhh ... that's the Mormons in there ... they think they're the only ones up here" In recent years, I heard that same joke
with Baptists substituted for Mormons in the punchline ...

Whether one of those or any other, I think it's quite illustrative of the whole problem ... the practitioners of pretty much any particular faith have a strong tendency to look down on those whose views are different as being "wrong" and consequently, inferior.

To borrow and adapt something that was mentioned in one or two of the responses above, if a Supreme Diety (whether named God or anything else) does not exist, the entire discussion is pointless and NONE of these or any other thoughts matter whatsoever ... BUT ... if God exists, it seems extremely likely to my way of thinking that He/She is quite likely to be a non-partisan in terms of the many individual religions and is most likely sitting on high with a glass of divine nectar in one hand, a divine cigar in the other and a smile of great amusement as He/She watches all of us "ants" in the "ant-farm" debating over such miniscule and inconsequential issues ...

I'm willing to bet the farm that if there's to be a day of judgement, we're gonna be judged on how we interacted with one another 24/7 and not by which particular building we worshipped in on Saturday or Sunday or even whether ... and if the here and now is all there is, it'll be a far more pleasureable here and now to interact well with one another than to not do so ...

Let's have a cigar
Charlie Offline
#68 Posted: Wed, Oct 30 2002, 6:51 AM EST
Joined: 06-16-2002
Posts: 39,751
Amen on the Cigar!!!

Charlie
tailgater Offline
#69 Posted: Wed, Oct 30 2002, 2:08 PM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
Steve, your post brings up a good point.
Of all the discussion in this thread, little has been made of WHICH god exists. Only WHETHER one exists or not.
The focus has not been on "religion" per se, but merely on "Faith".
I know that my God will not care what you preach so much as what you practice.
I know that is one thousand times easier to NOT believe in a Supreme Entity because of the lack of emperical proof.
I also know that my beliefs are rooted in my upbringing. Were I to be born in another part of the world, or even in a different part of the country, my religious learnigs would be vastly different. But I'd like to think that I'd still be the same sonuvabitch.
Now I'm gonna take you up on your suggestion and light this cigar.
Todog Offline
#70 Posted: Wed, Oct 30 2002, 6:36 PM EST
Joined: 05-05-2001
Posts: 804
Steve, you are a god! Whoops!!!
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#71 Posted: Wed, Oct 30 2002, 11:02 PM EST
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
jreddoch

great question. excellent discussions.

i look forward to your next great question for us to argue and debate.
jreddoch Offline
#72 Posted: Thu, Oct 31 2002, 1:40 AM EST
Joined: 12-30-2000
Posts: 1,309
Yep, this one has legs and has remained suprisingly civil throughout.
gdurfor Offline
#73 Posted: Thu, Oct 31 2002, 6:05 AM EST
Joined: 01-24-2001
Posts: 288
There's a God and it's not me. As long as I remeber that I'm ok.
cwilhelmi Offline
#74 Posted: Thu, Oct 31 2002, 10:11 AM EST
Joined: 07-24-2001
Posts: 2,739
It's Steve!! Didn't you see Todog's post?? All hail Steve!!
jreddoch Offline
#75 Posted: Thu, Oct 31 2002, 10:57 AM EST
Joined: 12-30-2000
Posts: 1,309
Praises be unto SteveSicus Maximus!
SteveS Offline
#76 Posted: Thu, Oct 31 2002, 11:48 AM EST
Joined: 01-13-2002
Posts: 8,751
LOL ... Sickus Maximus, eh? ... guess I can tell what MY reputation is
jreddoch Offline
#77 Posted: Thu, Oct 31 2002, 2:21 PM EST
Joined: 12-30-2000
Posts: 1,309
I was trying to play on your user name.
E-Chick Offline
#78 Posted: Fri, Nov 1 2002, 7:53 AM EST
Joined: 06-15-2002
Posts: 4,877
Yeah Steve-o, but Mike (my hubby) is known as Gascious Maximus around here...which title would you prefer?

And shouldn't God be known as HE...not He/She. I realize what city you are most familiar with, but the Holy Bible that I'm acquainted with refers to God as Father........

This has been an enlightening thread...thanks JR...I'm gonna start a thread titled, "Things that make you go, hmmm..."
SteveS Offline
#79 Posted: Fri, Nov 1 2002, 8:01 AM EST
Joined: 01-13-2002
Posts: 8,751
hey, JR, I was laughing when I said that ... no offense taken ...

and e-Chick ... you're right, I'll stick with the name JR tagged me with ... oh, btw ... looking forward to your initial post on that new thread ... hmmmmmmmmm
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