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PA Abortionist killed babies with Scissors
wheelrite Offline
#1 Posted:
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
AP: Pa. abortion doc killed 7 babies with scissors



Jan 19, 2:13 PM (ET)
By PATRICK WALTERS

PHILADELPHIA (AP) - A doctor who provided abortions for minorities, immigrants and poor women in a "house of horrors" clinic has been charged with eight counts of murder in the deaths of a patient and seven babies who were born alive and then killed with scissors, prosecutors said Wednesday.

Dr. Kermit Gosnell, 69, made millions of dollars over 30 years, performing as many illegal, late-term abortions as he could, prosecutors said. State regulators ignored complaints about him and failed to inspect his clinic since 1993, but no charges were warranted against them given time limits and existing law, District Attorney Seth Williams said. Nine of Gosnell's employees also were charged.

Gosnell "induced labor, forced the live birth of viable babies in the sixth, seventh, eighth month of pregnancy and then killed those babies by cutting into the back of the neck with scissors and severing their spinal cord," Williams said.

Patients were subjected to squalid and barbaric conditions at Gosnell's Women's Medical Society, where Gosnell performed dozens of abortions a day, prosecutors said. He mostly worked overnight hours after his untrained staff administered drugs to induce labor during the day, they said.

Early last year, authorities went to investigate drug-related complaints at the clinic and stumbled on what Williams called a "house of horrors."

Bags and bottles holding aborted fetuses "were scattered throughout the building," Williams said. "There were jars, lining shelves, with severed feet that he kept for no medical purpose."

The clinic was shut down and Gosnell's medical license was suspended after the raid.

Gosnell and four workers were charged with murder, while five others were charged with controlled drug violations and other crimes. None of the employees had any medical training, and one, a high school student, performed intravenous anesthesia with potentially lethal narcotics, Williams said.

All 10 defendants were taken into custody, authorities said.

Two listed numbers for Gosnell in Philadelphia have been disconnected. Defense lawyer William J. Brennan, who represented Gosnell during the investigation, noted that the doctor served patients in a low-income city neighborhood for decades.

"Obviously, these allegations are very, very serious," Brennan said.

The grand jury said the woman who died was a patient who came to Gosnell's clinic for an abortion and died of cardiac arrest because she was given too much Demerol. Gosnell wasn't at the clinic at the time, but directed his staff to administer the drug to keep the woman, a healthy 41-year-old woman, sedated until he arrived, prosecutors said.

Gosnell has been named in at least 46 malpractice suits, including one over the death of a 22-year-old mother who died of sepsis and a perforated uterus in 2000. Many others also involve perforated uteruses. Gosnell sometimes sewed up the injury without telling women their uteruses had been perforated, prosecutors said.

Gosnell charged $325 for first-trimester abortions and $1,600 to $3,000 for abortions up to 30 weeks. Abortions are legal up to 24 weeks gestation in Pennsylvania, although most doctors won't perform them after 20 weeks, prosecutors said.

Some women came from across the mid-Atlantic for the illegal late-term abortions, authorities said. White women from the suburbs were ushered into a separate, slightly cleaner area because Gosnell believed they were more likely to file complaints, Williams said.

"People knew near and far that if you needed a late-term abortion you could go see Dr. Gosnell," Williams said.

Few if any of the sedated women knew their babies were born alive and then killed, prosecutors said. Many were first-time mothers who were told they were 24 weeks pregnant, even if they were further along, authorities said.

Gosnell got his medical degree from Thomas Jefferson University in Philadelphia and is board certified in family practice. He started, but did not finish, a residency in obstetrics-gynecology, authorities said.

"He does not know how to do an abortion. He's not board certified," Assistant District Attorney Joanne Pescatore said. "Once he got them there, he saw dollar signs and did abortions that other people wouldn't do."






Pro choice is a nice way of saying slaughter..

wheel,
jackconrad Offline
#2 Posted:
Joined: 06-09-2003
Posts: 67,461
I saw this , it was so awful i didn't even wan't to post it..
daveincincy Offline
#3 Posted:
Joined: 08-11-2006
Posts: 20,033
ABORTIONS ARE BIG BUSINESS!!!
wheelrite Offline
#4 Posted:
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
jackconrad wrote:
I saw this , it was so awful i didn't even wan't to post it..


Jack it horriffied me as well.

But,I belive this sort of thing takes place all the time and is ignored...


wheel,
ryancuad Offline
#5 Posted:
Joined: 06-24-2010
Posts: 2,161
i agree this is completely heinous. However, many americans believe that if you abort the fetus just a few weeks earlier, and kill it through lethal injection rather than cutting its spinal cord, that is ok and not heinous? riiiight... Whatever makes you feel better after murdering a child, usually because of your own selfishness...
DadZilla3 Offline
#6 Posted:
Joined: 01-17-2009
Posts: 4,633
I wouldn't be surprised if a sizable percentage of the people who consider abortion a woman's 'choice' and not murder, also consider the death penalty to be 'cruel and unusual punishment' and call for it to be banned.
Gene363 Offline
#7 Posted:
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,864

Someday, perhaps, we will be civilized, for now we are barbarians. Not talking
wheelrite Offline
#8 Posted:
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
DadZilla3 wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if a sizable percentage of the people who consider abortion a woman's 'choice' and not murder, also consider the death penalty to be 'cruel and unusual punishment' and call for it to be banned.


I'm an, anti abortion,anti death penalty,conservative...
tonyt722 Offline
#9 Posted:
Joined: 06-20-2007
Posts: 23,649
This sick f*ck needs his spinal cord severed with a pair of dull scissors, only after being tortured with some of his own instruments.
SteveS Offline
#10 Posted:
Joined: 01-13-2002
Posts: 8,751
One day, some years back, MrsS told me she'd been to the doctor that day and that despite our thinking that we knew what was causing us to have children and had taken some precaution to limit our family to the 3 children we already had, that "SURPRISE" ... there was a fourth on the way ... she said that the doctor had offered to perform an abortion if it were inconvenient for us to have another, but that even without talking to me, she had declined his offer ... said she couldn't do that, even if I were in favor of it .... we'd never discussed this issue, so she didn't really know what to expect me to say next, but I said that I agreed with her ... that even if she had been in favor, I'd have tried to talk her out of it ...

I cannot begin to fully express myself regarding the joy that decision has ultimately brought us ... oh, sure, there were bumps in the road helping him navigate through his teen years, but he is now a very successful adult and is the parent of the brightest and most happy little girl it's ever been my pleasure to be around ... she is absolutely one of the lights of our lives ...

I was unable to read the entire story above ... I may be a bit unexpressive in my emotions at times, but this is a subject that literally brings me to tears ... neither MtrsS or I do any active campaigning on this subject and we don't offer unasked for advise to anyone else, but if the subject comes up, I tell our story ...

Inconvenient?????? WTF does that mean??? unless a couple is actively hoping to have a child, it is rarely, if ever, seen as being convenient .... few among us has the surplus of means to add to the size of our families without feeling at least a bit of a pinch ... IMO, the doctor should have been offerng this sort of advise and only agreeing to perform the abortion if we were strongly and solidly in favor ....
borndead1 Offline
#11 Posted:
Joined: 11-07-2006
Posts: 5,216
DadZilla3 wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if a sizable percentage of the people who consider abortion a woman's 'choice' and not murder, also consider the death penalty to be 'cruel and unusual punishment' and call for it to be banned.


And vice versa...anti-abortionists who are pro-death penalty. They're both murder IMO.
wheelrite Offline
#12 Posted:
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
I wonder where our resident Libs are and their rationalization of this autocity ?
tailgater Offline
#13 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
wheelrite wrote:
I wonder where our resident Libs are and their rationalization of this autocity ?


I don't think anyone who posts here, liberal or not, would try to rationalize this.
Unless I'm proven wrong, it's unfair to suggest that they would.
wheelrite Offline
#14 Posted:
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
tailgater wrote:
I don't think anyone who posts here, liberal or not, would try to rationalize this.
Unless I'm proven wrong, it's unfair to suggest that they would.


Here's the deal,,

Planned Parenthood would have most people think that abortion is an antiseptic ,no big deal procedure,like having a tooth filled.

It is a grisly,inhumane and disgusting heinous act.

Stray dogs are teated better than the yet to be born..


wheel,,
tailgater Offline
#15 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
borndead1 wrote:
And vice versa...anti-abortionists who are pro-death penalty. They're both murder IMO.


I am against the act of abortion, but I whole-heartedly support capital punsishment.
Although both are "murder", the comparison is short sighted at best.

Let's take a look at the two:
Abortion kills an innocent life.
Abortions are performed daily, in every town, and without a court of laws or a long decision process.
Abortions aren't delayed for decades so the lawyers can work the system.
Abortions aren't stopped by governors, yet the decision is just as permanent as flipping the switch.
The only "crime" the aborted child committed was to begin their life at an inconvenient time for their would be mother.
People fight to make abortions easier to get. Even to have minors make the choice without adult consent.
Abortions are often performed in secret, so even the would-be fatehr is out of the loop.
And if someone has a last minute decision to avert an abortion, the world will likely be a little richer for the change in heart.

In today's age of iron clad DNA evidence, the death penalty is the exact opposite of each point listed above.

The two acts are mutually exclusive.
daveincincy Offline
#16 Posted:
Joined: 08-11-2006
Posts: 20,033
I don't know a whole lot about Planned Parenthood, but I think it's a joke. There's more money to be made in "suggesting" (i.e. selling) someone on having an abortion rather than trying to counsel them out of it. I can imagine that someone considering an abortion might be given a long list of reasons on why to have an abortion, while the list for not having an abortion is probably rather small. ...the doctor can see you tomorrow...
wheelrite Offline
#17 Posted:
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
tailgater wrote:
I am against the act of abortion, but I whole-heartedly support capital punsishment.
Although both are "murder", the comparison is short sighted at best.

Let's take a look at the two:
Abortion kills an innocent life.
Abortions are performed daily, in every town, and without a court of laws or a long decision process.
Abortions aren't delayed for decades so the lawyers can work the system.
Abortions aren't stopped by governors, yet the decision is just as permanent as flipping the switch.
The only "crime" the aborted child committed was to begin their life at an inconvenient time for their would be mother.
People fight to make abortions easier to get. Even to have minors make the choice without adult consent.
Abortions are often performed in secret, so even the would-be fatehr is out of the loop.
And if someone has a last minute decision to avert an abortion, the world will likely be a little richer for the change in heart.

In today's age of iron clad DNA evidence, the death penalty is the exact opposite of each point listed above.

The two acts are mutually exclusive.




Other than self defense the taking of another human life is never justified,NEVER...
tailgater Offline
#18 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
wheelrite wrote:
Here's the deal,,

Planned Parenthood would have most people think that abortion is an antiseptic ,no big deal procedure,like having a tooth filled.

It is a grisly,inhumane and disgusting heinous act.

Stray dogs are teated better than the yet to be born..


wheel,,


Unfortunately, I know this to be true.
I've posted on here before about someone very close to my wife and I who got pregnant at a young age. 19 and in school was a tough (inconvenient) time to have a baby.
She went to planned parenthood and was provided information on HOW to get an abortion. Where to go. Who would pay if she couldn't. And they offered support groups to ease the mind (guilt) afterwards.
The thing is, she wanted to learn about putting her child up for adoption.

They told her to contact the state.


My previous post wasn't to suggest that liberals in general wouldn't try to find some means to defend the scissor doc.
Just that nobody on these boards would.
tailgater Offline
#19 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
wheelrite wrote:
Other than self defense the taking of another human life is never justified,NEVER...


That's a fair opinion to have, and I wouldn't argue with your right to be against capital punishment.
But comparing it to abortion is like saying all anal sex is the same. I mean, it's just an ass, isn't it?

Ok.
Maybe that a bad analogy.

(Yes. Pun intended...)


borndead1 Offline
#20 Posted:
Joined: 11-07-2006
Posts: 5,216
wheelrite wrote:
Other than self defense the taking of another human life is never justified,NEVER...


Especially by government. Don't get me wrong -- I'm not anti death penalty because I care about a murderer's "rights" or "feelings". I simply think it is too much power for the government to have. The death penalty is the ultimate display of big government. It is illegal for me to kill you, but if I do, the government can kill me. Buncha BS.

As for abortion...yes I think it is disgusting, inhumane, irresponsible, and it is murder. But should it be illegal? I say no. Why? Because it won't stop women from getting abortions. Abortion is something the human race has to evolve past, just like war, greed, racism, homophobia, etc. Laws can't force people to be moral, ethical, or responsible. You can't legally force someone to have a conscience.

borndead1 Offline
#21 Posted:
Joined: 11-07-2006
Posts: 5,216
tailgater wrote:
I mean, it's just an ass, isn't it?




Is it shaved?
tailgater Offline
#22 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
borndead1 wrote:

As for abortion...yes I think it is disgusting, inhumane, irresponsible, and it is murder. But should it be illegal? I say no. Why? Because it won't stop women from getting abortions. Abortion is something the human race has to evolve past, just like war, greed, racism, homophobia, etc. Laws can't force people to be moral, ethical, or responsible. You can't legally force someone to have a conscience.



Agreed.
tailgater Offline
#23 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
borndead1 wrote:
Is it shaved?


As if you'd say no if it weren't...
DadZilla3 Offline
#24 Posted:
Joined: 01-17-2009
Posts: 4,633
borndead1 wrote:
And vice versa...anti-abortionists who are pro-death penalty. They're both murder IMO.

I find quite a degree of difference between killing an innocent unborn baby and the state putting a convicted murderer to death to pay for his or her crimes.
JadeRose Offline
#25 Posted:
Joined: 05-15-2008
Posts: 19,525
I'm pro-choice and pro-death penalty for particularly heinous crimes....which is exactly what this sick ba$tard has been perpetrating. Make it slow and painful.
fishinguitarman Offline
#26 Posted:
Joined: 07-29-2006
Posts: 69,152
This is just sickening....The torturous murder of babies.....
jig+pig Offline
#27 Posted:
Joined: 12-30-2010
Posts: 1,349
this guy is sick! however, to compare this guy to a real dr. giving an abortion is idiotic!
IDIOTIC!
and to the people against capitol punishment....would you feel the same if someone raped and killed YOUR daughter?????????????????????????????????
i say we have a public stoning of this so called dr. and i would be first in line to throw a stone!
rfenst Offline
#28 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,410
What kind of scisors?
daveincincy Offline
#29 Posted:
Joined: 08-11-2006
Posts: 20,033
rfenst wrote:
What kind of scisors?


My mom would get upset at us if we used her sewing scissors to cut paper.
jig+pig Offline
#30 Posted:
Joined: 12-30-2010
Posts: 1,349
daveincincy wrote:
My mom would get upset at us if we used her sewing scissors to cut paper.


mine too Dave!!
daveincincy Offline
#31 Posted:
Joined: 08-11-2006
Posts: 20,033
jig+pig wrote:
mine too Dave!!


Well, there's two of us that turned out alright. Can't say the same about the guy in the article. He must have some deep-seeded issues with his mom when she scolded him for using her sewing scissors to make crafts.
jig+pig Offline
#32 Posted:
Joined: 12-30-2010
Posts: 1,349
yeah, i guess you're right. we didn't turn out too bad. the love of money is the root of all evil!!
i'm sure this guy loved the money.
JadeRose Offline
#33 Posted:
Joined: 05-15-2008
Posts: 19,525
rfenst wrote:
What kind of scisors?



I don't know but I bet he ran with them, too.
teedubbya Offline
#34 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
JadeRose wrote:
I don't know but I bet he ran with them, too.



By the swimming pool after a heavy meal
uncleb Offline
#35 Posted:
Joined: 11-13-2002
Posts: 1,326
At one point I was Pro Choice but, with all of the advancements/options that are now available in the areas of adoption and contraception, I have shifted to Pro Life. The issue now is changing the educational and informational communication processes to adapt to these changes. If Planned Parenthood is pushing abortion as the primary option nowadys (I don't know if they are or not) they need to catch up and quickly.
cbc812 Offline
#36 Posted:
Joined: 01-31-2007
Posts: 4,222
Pro choice, pro death penalty here.

But I don't think this story is really relevant to the pro choice/pro life debate. This guy is a sadistic f**k and a criminal.
rfenst Offline
#37 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,410
I have read the article over a couple times and don't see where the babies were proven to be viable outside the womb at the time of the abortion. If they weren't viable outside the womb and the abortion ocured within the 24-week period under the law, I don't think they will be able to convict him for murder of the aborted baby. How, other than employees "rolling over on the doctor", will they even prove the babies were born alive and intact?

Look for the defenzse to be something like:

1. The abortion was performed during the foirst and second tri-mester as required by law;
2. None of the babies were born alive;
3. None of the babies were even viable (had they been born alive). The use of the "surgical scisors" as opposed to a scalpal was the fastess way to painlessly end the babies life; and of course
4. The mothers are to blame too for the death of their babies because they wanted the abortion.

As to the number of med-mal lawsuits that, in and of itself, could mean nothing at all given the doctor performs abortions, which include a much greater proportion of claims against doctors than in other areas of medicine.

Lastly, uterus damage/perferation is a well-known risk/complication of even the most [properly performed, safest abortion. I am not saying that negligence may be a cuse of it, just that ever perferation is not necessarily malpractice.

Now, if the only hardcore issue that can be proven is a terribly messy, unclean clinic, then look for a fine and the possible suspension or loss of the doctor's medicle license.

We'll see...
wheelrite Offline
#38 Posted:
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
rfenst wrote:
I have read the article over a couple times and don't see where the babies were proven to be viable outside the wound at the time off the abortion. If they weren't viable and the abotion ocured within the 24-week period under the law, I don't think they will be able to convict him for murder. How, other than employees rolling over on the doctor, they will even prove the babies were born alive and intact?

Look for the defenzse to be something like:

1. The abortion was performed during the foirst and second tri-mester as required by law;
2. None of the babies were born alive;
3. None of the babies were even viable (had they been born alive). The use of the "surgical scisors" as opposed to a scalpal was the fastess way to painlessly end the babies life; and of course
4. The mothers are to blame too for the death of their babies because they wanted the abortion.

As to the number of med-mal lawsuits that, in and of itself, could mean nothing at all given the doctor performs abortions, which include a much greater proportion of claims against doctors than in other areas of medicine.

Lastly, uterus damage/perferation is a well-known risk/complication of even the most [properly performed, safest abortion. I am not saying that negligence may be a cuse of it, just that ever perferation is not necessarily malpractice.



read it again..The babies WERE BORN ALIVE some in the 8th month and he KILLED them.

I believe you are just being contrary.

If not,you have issues..
















daveincincy Offline
#39 Posted:
Joined: 08-11-2006
Posts: 20,033
Reading #37 only confirms why it would be darn near impossible for me to be a lawyer. I am not saying that rfenst would defend this abortion doc, but defending someone like that would be reallly hard to do even if they stayed within the law [barely]. That goes for other criminals, etc, as well. Criminal defense would be tough for me, as I would be very picky about who I would want to defend. My problem is I would lean more towards common sense rather than law at times. Think
rfenst Offline
#40 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,410
wheelrite wrote:
read it again..The babies WERE BORN ALIVE some in the 8th month and he KILLED them.

I believe you are just being contrary.

If not,you have issues..




The article makes me sick too.

Just because the article says so doesn't make it true. Re-read what I wrote. See the word "proof"? Where is the "proof". Any phsical evidence? Any admissions by the doctor? Or, is there just the testimony of alleged co-conspiritors at best? (I was once a prosecutor. Also, I have watched and read how similar cases have gone down, including some participation in a trial against an abortionist.)

As to just being contrary, you can beleive whatever you desire, but you are wrong. (Maybe, your vigor concerning the issue is preventing you from claearly fathoming how the REAL legal sytem works.

As to having issues: You don't know the half of it!!!
wheelrite Offline
#41 Posted:
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
rfenst wrote:
The article makes me sick too.

Just because the article says so doesn't make it true. Re-read what I wrote. See the word "proof"? Where is the "proof". Any phsical evidence? Any admissions by the doctor? Or, is there just the testimony of alleged co-conspiritors at best? (I was once a prosecutor. Also, I have watched and read how similar cases have gone down, including some participation in a trial against an abortionist.)

As to just being contrary, you can beleive whatever you desire, but you are wrong. (Maybe, your vigor concerning the issue is preventing you from claearly fathoming how the REAL legal sytem works.

As to having issues: You don't know the half of it!!!


Robert,,

Surely the Police have abundant evidence .
tailgater Offline
#42 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
rfenst wrote:
I have read the article over a couple times and don't see where the babies were proven to be viable outside the womb at the time of the abortion. If they weren't viable outside the womb and the abortion ocured within the 24-week period under the law, I don't think they will be able to convict him for murder of the aborted baby. How, other than employees "rolling over on the doctor", will they even prove the babies were born alive and intact?

Look for the defenzse to be something like:

1. The abortion was performed during the foirst and second tri-mester as required by law;
2. None of the babies were born alive;
3. None of the babies were even viable (had they been born alive). The use of the "surgical scisors" as opposed to a scalpal was the fastess way to painlessly end the babies life; and of course
4. The mothers are to blame too for the death of their babies because they wanted the abortion.

As to the number of med-mal lawsuits that, in and of itself, could mean nothing at all given the doctor performs abortions, which include a much greater proportion of claims against doctors than in other areas of medicine.

Lastly, uterus damage/perferation is a well-known risk/complication of even the most [properly performed, safest abortion. I am not saying that negligence may be a cuse of it, just that ever perferation is not necessarily malpractice.

Now, if the only hardcore issue that can be proven is a terribly messy, unclean clinic, then look for a fine and the possible suspension or loss of the doctor's medicle license.

We'll see...



Did you REALLY read it twice and then come to the above conclusions and possilbe defense strategy?
If so, may I suggest a third reading.
While sober.

You're welcome.
HockeyDad Offline
#43 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,187
The police could have fabricated the evidence. "Throw Down" aborted fetuses.
tailgater Offline
#44 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
rfenst wrote:


Just because the article says so doesn't make it true. Re-read what I wrote. See the word "proof"? Where is the "proof". Any phsical evidence? Any admissions by the doctor? Or, is there just the testimony of alleged co-conspiritors at best? (I was once a prosecutor. Also, I have watched and read how similar cases have gone down, including some participation in a trial against an abortionist.)



There is no "proof" because it's just a news blurb.
Technically, the article doesn't provide "proof" that abortions were even conducted, or that this doctor even exists.

The DA has offered information without the obligatory preface of "alleged", which would open him up to slander if it's not true.

Based on the article (our only source of information currently) this appears like an open and shut case.
Until, of course, the ACLU comes storming in to claim the doctor was performing a much needed service in an impovershed area and that considering the circumstances no one could be expected to keep things clean or maintain proper regulations.
That the charges against the doctor are, in fact, making it a crime to perform services to people less fortunate than ourselves.
And who are we to deprive the poor of their right to mutilate er I mean abort their babies?

rfenst Offline
#45 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,410
wheelrite wrote:
Robert,,

Surely the Police have abundant evidence .



Like what? His own admission or confession? Video? His own medical records? An aborted baby that they performed an autopsy on? If they have anything tangible or highly credible, they would have included it in their announcement and or press release...

Morover, the very loose, wide-open standard for arrest is merely "a reasonable suspicion" that a crime has occured. That is a much lower standard than any other legal standard I can think of, including "more likely than not", which is the typical civil law standard.

I know how you feel about this issue and I am not saying you are wrong. I am only explaining how this whole thing could easily play out...
wheelrite Offline
#46 Posted:
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
rfenst wrote:
Like what? His own admission or confession? Video? His own medical records? An aborted baby that they performed an autopsy on? If they have anything tangible or highly credible, they would have included it in their announcement and or press release...

Morover, the very loose, wide-open standard for arrest is merely "a reasonable suspicion" that a crime has occured. That is a much lower standard than any other legal standard I can think of, including "more likely than not", which is the typical civil law standard.

I know how you feel about this issue and I am not saying you are wrong. I am only explaining how this whole thing could easily play out...


He's a murderer...
rfenst Offline
#47 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,410
daveincincy wrote:
Reading #37 only confirms why it would be darn near impossible for me to be a lawyer. I am not saying that rfenst would defend this abortion doc, but defending someone like that would be reallly hard to do even if they stayed within the law [barely]. That goes for other criminals, etc, as well. Criminal defense would be tough for me, as I would be very picky about who I would want to defend. My problem is I would lean more towards common sense rather than law at times. Think



Lawyers are rarely ever required to take any case. Beleive it or not, this guy will have no problem atracting a hot-shot, top-shelf lawyer. Lots of publicity to be found here for that lawyer. Also, special interest groups might "chip in".

Criminal defense would be very difficult for me if I felt they were guilty. So is divorce. That is why I don't take those types of cases. But, we should all be thankfull that some lawyers do. In any event, common sense and the truth often have little to do with legal matters.
borndead1 Offline
#48 Posted:
Joined: 11-07-2006
Posts: 5,216
DadZilla3 wrote:
I find quite a degree of difference between killing an innocent unborn baby and the state putting a convicted murderer to death to pay for his or her crimes.


What about the dozens of innocent people that have been put to death?

Forget the circumstances for a minute and concentrate on the physical act itself. The physical act of strapping a person into a chair and injecting them with a drug that stops their heart. The physical act of putting a person inside a gas chamber and gassing them. It is the premeditated ending of a person's life with forethought and intent. It is murder. And it is a right I do not believe the government should have. There are very few rights and powers I think government should have, but that's another debate.


P.S. This discussion has been very civil so far. Let's not ruin it, guys. These types of discussions need to take place.

rfenst Offline
#49 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,410
borndead1 wrote:
This discussion has been very civil so far. Let's not ruin it, guys. These types of discussions need to take place.



+1
uncleb Offline
#50 Posted:
Joined: 11-13-2002
Posts: 1,326
borndead1 wrote:
What about the dozens of innocent people that have been put to death?

Forget the circumstances for a minute and concentrate on the physical act itself. The physical act of strapping a person into a chair and injecting them with a drug that stops their heart. The physical act of putting a person inside a gas chamber and gassing them. It is the premeditated ending of a person's life with forethought and intent. It is murder. And it is a right I do not believe the government should have. There are very few rights and powers I think government should have, but that's another debate.


P.S. This discussion has been very civil so far. Let's not ruin it, guys. These types of discussions need to take place.


This is where I struggle with the death penalty. While I support it in theory, the fact is that our judicial system is too flawed and convicting innocent people all too common.
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