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Last post 13 years ago by HockeyDad. 81 replies replies.
Poll Question : How soon until we Bomb Libya ??
Choice Votes Statistics
I can hear a big noise on the Tv 1 7 %
1 Day 1 7 %
3 days 0 0 %
1 week 1 7 %
2 weeks 0 0 %
1 month 1 7 %
After Hempfest 9 69 %
Total 13 100%

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HOW SOON TILL WE BOMB LIBYA
jackconrad Offline
#1 Posted:
Joined: 06-09-2003
Posts: 67,461
BArrack is dying to impress his brothers...
donutboy2000 Offline
#2 Posted:
Joined: 11-20-2001
Posts: 25,000
Obama will surrender before he gets the military involved.
ZRX1200 Offline
#3 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,656
Democrat policy with this is to paint US planes blue so the "UN" can bomb someone.
DadZilla3 Offline
#4 Posted:
Joined: 01-17-2009
Posts: 4,633
With Muslims on both sides of the conflict, how could he decide which faction to favor?
HockeyDad Offline
#5 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,187
Bring our troops home.
Papachristou Offline
#6 Posted:
Joined: 10-20-2010
Posts: 845
HockeyDad wrote:
Bring our troops home.


and put them all across the mexican border!


i love how we spend american lives and dollars in iraq and afgan, china gets the oil pipeline from iraq and china gets the mining rights to afgan, hey makes sense since they own us right? we are just working for them! hooray!
DrafterX Offline
#7 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,577
I'll get a box ready this weekend... anybody got their snailer...??? Huh
Papachristou Offline
#8 Posted:
Joined: 10-20-2010
Posts: 845
ZRX1200 wrote:
Democrat policy with this is to paint US planes blue so the "UN" can bomb someone.


you forgot to make the US soldiers take off the flag they wear and put on the UN flag
DadZilla3 Offline
#9 Posted:
Joined: 01-17-2009
Posts: 4,633
Papachristou wrote:
i love how we spend american lives and dollars in iraq and afgan, china gets the oil pipeline from iraq and china gets the mining rights to afgan, hey makes sense since they own us right? we are just working for them! hooray!

Hard to believe just a few decades ago, we were the world's largest creditor nation.
HockeyDad Offline
#10 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,187
ZRX1200 wrote:
Democrat policy with this is to paint US planes blue so the "UN" can bomb someone.



We never paint US planes or anything else UN blue. If it is painted UN blue, the UN funds it. That is why many obscure nations are quick to offer peacekeeping troops. (The USA is the largest financial contributor to the UN)

The US pays its own way. (By borrowing money from Asia)
fishinguitarman Offline
#11 Posted:
Joined: 07-29-2006
Posts: 69,152
I went with "I can hear a big noise on the Tv"....But that was Rosie O fartin'...
DrMaddVibe Offline
#12 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,552
When the Teleprompter TELLS him to...AFTER HEMPFEST!!!!
MACS Offline
#13 Posted:
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,867
DadZilla3 wrote:
Hard to believe just a few decades ago, we were the world's largest creditor nation.

We probably still come close, except we borrow the money from China and then we GIVE it to other friggin countries.

When will we learn?
HockeyDad Offline
#14 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,187
Actually the amount of money we give to other countries is insignificant in the grand scheme of our budget. We borrow money to make interest payments now.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#15 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,552
HockeyDad wrote:
Actually the amount of money we give to other countries is insignificant in the grand scheme of our budget. We borrow money to make interest payments now.



How many of us in the house employ this solution?Whistle

Think it'll work for long?whip
HockeyDad Offline
#16 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,187
DrMaddVibe wrote:
How many of us in the house employ this solution?Whistle

Think it'll work for long?whip



It will work as long as we de-stabilize the rest of the world and make dollar investments look good in comparison.

(Just have to outrun the other guy trying to outrun the bear...if he gets a lead, shoot him in the leg.)
Stinkdyr Offline
#17 Posted:
Joined: 06-16-2009
Posts: 9,948
Well, since Pelosi and Obama ended the Iraq and Afghan wars....like they said they would do, we have plenty of soldiers available to start another war in Labia.

oh wait.

Dancing
HockeyDad Offline
#18 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,187
Maybe Israel will do it. We pay them well.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#19 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,552
I'll drive a vulva over to fight in the battle with Labia!!!!
Stinkdyr Offline
#20 Posted:
Joined: 06-16-2009
Posts: 9,948
DrMaddVibe wrote:
I'll drive a vulva over to fight in the battle with Labia!!!!



Hey, easy now........we don't want to rub the situation the wrong way!

Dancing
DrMaddVibe Offline
#21 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,552
Add water...makes it's own sauce!!!whip
Stinkdyr Offline
#22 Posted:
Joined: 06-16-2009
Posts: 9,948
Just like a Telefunken U-47.


with leather.


Applause
rfenst Offline
#23 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,415
HockeyDad wrote:
Maybe Israel will do it. We pay them well.



Wouldn't that make you very happy.
HockeyDad Offline
#24 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,187
rfenst wrote:
Wouldn't that make you very happy.



Somehow I'm thinking they'll find an excuse to sit this one out. They did at least suggest that they might need at extra $20 billion from the USA.
frankj1 Online
#25 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,245
HockeyDad wrote:
Maybe Israel will do it. We pay them well.

Let's ask Palestine instead.
Anyone with me?
HockeyDad Offline
#26 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,187
They're prolly both busy with Israeli Apartheid Week.
frankj1 Online
#27 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,245
HockeyDad wrote:
They're prolly both busy with Israeli Apartheid Week.

yeah. or maybe trying to figure out how to wipe us out too. or maybe both.
just no time left to say yes to a new state. so hard yto make a new state, just ask Israel. It's a bitch irrigating a desert.

Wait. which side would Palestine (if there ever is a Palestine) be on in this Libya/Egypt/Yemen etc mess? Perhaps they'd help secure our interests waaaaayyyyy better than Israel.

Ya think?
DrafterX Offline
#28 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,577
HockeyDad wrote:
They're prolly both busy with Israeli Apartheid Week.



I should have invested in whacking sticks.... remind me next year... Mellow
HockeyDad Offline
#29 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,187
frankj1 wrote:


Wait. which side would Palestine (if there ever is a Palestine) be on in this Libya/Egypt/Yemen etc mess? Perhaps they'd help secure our interests waaaaayyyyy better than Israel.

Ya think?



Neither Palestinians nor Israel help secure our interests. De-fund them both.
jackconrad Offline
#30 Posted:
Joined: 06-09-2003
Posts: 67,461
We should be Proud to help Radical Islamist take over the Middle East, they are after all about Peace and Love..
rfenst Offline
#31 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,415
HockeyDad wrote:
Somehow I'm thinking they'll find an excuse to sit this one out. They did at least suggest that they might need at extra $20 billion from the USA.




Ever consider they are still being supported just to get them to stay out? Some believe this. I am not sure.

$20 billion is a lot of money, particularly compared to what we pay annually. Perhaps, the plan is to buy Israel's recognition of a Palestinian state, which might simmer down some of the regions problems- for a short while...

Anyhow, I have been trying to figure out what percentage Israel's annual budget represents the aid we annually give Israel. Do you know a source?


(Also, PM me your address as I have an SLR I want you to taste and tell me if it is "on")
HockeyDad Offline
#32 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,187
The radical Islamists are against Gaddaffy. A no-fly zone would help them.
HockeyDad Offline
#33 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,187
Robert,

The number I have seen is 3% but they are expecting a raise that is stuck in the buget fight in the US congress.

The $20 billion dollar came from I think the Israeli Defense Minister today.
Gene363 Offline
#34 Posted:
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,864
Give both sides guns and shoot the winner.
rfenst Offline
#35 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,415
HockeyDad wrote:
The number I have seen is 3%


We never get the straight story because there are so many different types of aid. Financial aid, military aid, research aid, loan guarantees.... It gets distributed in different budgets; some interestingly, are public and the others are secret. Military aid appears to require Israel to spend 75% on U.S. armaments- this helps support our military industrial complex.

The figure I keep seeing is $3 billion annually, but I doubt that is accurate. Most of what I am finding seems to be repetitive use of the same less than fully credible sources of information. Also, I have been reading that $3 billion annually represents somewhere between 1-5% of Israel's budget. When Israel's economy is doing well, some both here and in Israel wonder out loud whether the aid is truly necessary.

Anyhow, it seems to be a very tangled web, the deepest parts of which we will probably not learn about for years to come...

HockeyDad Offline
#36 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,187
$3 billion is the relatively easily located military aid number. Loan guarantees technically don't count as aid and then often are forgiven later and just sorta vanish. Economic aid has been given that has been used to pay off our loans. Because much of the aid is hidden in department budgets, it is very difficult to know the true number above and beyond the $3 billion.

3 billion USD per year is equal to 20-25% of Israel's defense budget. 3/4 of that $3 billion has to be spent buying US weaponry and the other 1/4 can be used for anything and usually goes to the Israeli military industrial complex. It is pretty easy to find the Israeli government budget, convert the currencies, and figure out what percentage the 3 billion is of their overall budget. That is how I got 3%.

A good example on off-the-books types of aid is we're paying for a short range missle defense system for knocking out the little 1-5 lb warheads that get commonly launched from Gaza or Lebanon. It is of absolutely no use to the USA but is covered under a joint defense project and is not part of the $3 billion.

What is known is the USA has given Israel somewhere between $100-120 billion. More than the USA has given any other country.

There was a time when funding Israel was useful in the whole Cold War mentality. That time has passed. Now we just keep doing the same thing and hoping the result will be different.
frankj1 Online
#37 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,245
HockeyDad wrote:
Neither Palestinians nor Israel help secure our interests. De-fund them both.

I would listen to the pros and cons. But goodbye Palestine possibility. In the best of times they turned down every offer made without a counteroffer. Your suggestion would leave them worse off than ever. They have never even been "adopted" by Arab states. None willing to cede one square inch of sand to a new Palestine!!

Surprise, HD. I do care about them. I do believe they should have a state. Should have happened the day Israel was
(re)born. Can't blame Israel for that.

What did Balfour want?
HockeyDad Offline
#38 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,187
"His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country". ~ Balfour

He didn't get the part about "nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine".



In reality, there is no Palestine possibility. Israel cannot make peace. There have always been counteroffers but Israel cannot accept them.

Ever see a map of the Israeli settlements in the West Bank? Israel is not going to pull out of those settlements or the entire Jordan border and the end result will be maybe 50% of the West Bank can go to the Palestinians and it will be carved up into many separate partitions that will be each surrounded by the Israeli military. Much like it is right now.

Too many Israelis view the West Bank as part of Zion. Samaria and Judea. Also parts of Lebanon can be considered Zion. This is where being a Zionist gets tricky. Is it just for a Jewish state or the full reconstruction of Zion.

Israel is never going to let go of any portion of Jerusalem. Through legal land purchases it is already pretty well colonized unlike the West Bank settlement colonization effort.

Israel is never going to allow the right of return to Palestinians who fled what now is Israel. If they did, it would become half arab, half Jew and the arabs breed far faster.

Israel can never allow a single state solution because of the exact same population demographics. This is why Israel can't annex the West Bank or Gaza until the Palestinians leave or are killed off. Jewish ethnic purity is critical to the concept of Israel as a Jewish state. A state with a bunch of Jews is not going to cut it.

Arab nations have donated land to form a Palestine. Jordan donated the West Bank and Egypt donated Gaza. Again, this kinda gets back to the definition of Zion. Maybe that wasn't a donation and it was simply Zion reforming its original borders. I think what you're looking for is Jordan to cut out a chuck of Jordan and call it Palestine and then all the Palestinians pack up from Judea and Samaria and move there. (With USA and UN funding, of course)

Although you care about the Palestinians having a state, you probably will care when the EU and the UN declare and recognize a Palestinian state on the pre-1967 borders and various UN resolutions. The next logical step will be reconstruction funds and peacekeeping troops. I expect this happens within 3 years unless Israel makes peace. Israel is already being recognized as an apartheid state with 43 years of Palestinian internment camps and meanwhile there is a strong possibility of democracy breaking out all over North Africa. Not a good situation for Israel.

Meanwhile we continue to pour US taxpayer dollars in for nothing. Cut the funds. It won't cripple Israel but they will take notice. It will also remind them that they can't go starting new wars with the safety that the USA will show up with an extra 10 billion or so, as needed.

...and they can still go do a no-fly zone over Libya!
DrMaddVibe Offline
#39 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,552
frankj1 wrote:
What did Balfour want?


Another Stanley Cup win?whip


HockeyDad Offline
#40 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,187
Beer brewing Saturday?
DrMaddVibe Offline
#41 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,552
HockeyDad wrote:
Beer brewing Saturday?



No can do...got to brush clear up at the ranch!
HockeyDad Offline
#42 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,187
Brush clearing.......next you'll run for President!
DrMaddVibe Offline
#43 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,552
Next Saturday???
DrMaddVibe Offline
#44 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,552
Stinkdyr wrote:
Just like a Telefunken U-47.


with leather.


=d>



Very nice!!!

Shrink to fit with a hair dryer!
HockeyDad Offline
#45 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,187
Next Saturday will work. I'm expecting my supplies this Friday if FedEx is on time.

We will impose a brew/herf no-fly zone. I'll apply for a couple of million dollars from the US government. That ought to cover it.
bloody spaniard Offline
#46 Posted:
Joined: 03-14-2003
Posts: 43,802
(Sam off)

Thanks for the education, HD. I've always supported Israel but your info, if accurate, is an eye opener...
HockeyDad Offline
#47 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,187
Try googling Israeli ID cards. They are color coded and they track ethnicity. The arabs and Christians are tagged very effectively.

Try googling Israeli-only roads in the West Bank. Built on seized Palestinian land to connect settlements and off-limits to Palestinians. Some call them "Jew-only" roads but the talking points will point out that Israeli arabs and Christians can use them, just not West Bank Palestinians.

Between restriction of movement based on ethnicity and being surrounded and separated by military checkpoints, this passes the sniff test for apartheid and concentration/detention/prison camp.

The defense for these actions is that it is needed for security reasons. The USA helps fund this. Our foreign aid to Israel is equal to $500 per Israeli per year. Not a bad haul.

Keep in mind that there is a pretty large contingent of Israelis and Jews worldwide who are also sick of this crap. They just aren't in charge.


Americans aren't supposed to know this information or bother researching it. Israel is our closest ally in the region, a strong Israel prevents war in the middle east, they're the only democracy in the region, and Israel as an ally stops Soviet encroachment. That is enough talking points for Americans to blindly fund it.

That's how we get sucked into intervening in places like Somalia, Bosnia, Kosovo, Iraq, and now maybe Labya.



I have supported right wing dictatorships that kill civilians so it really shouldn't be a surprise that I will support Israel in a cage match. I just won't fund it.

frankj1 Online
#48 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,245
you always refer to "seized land" while disingenuously allowing the inference that Israel launched land-grabbing wars. You know better, you know these lands came in the act of defense when surrounding Arab nations (that inconvenient seige reference again) attempted synchronized attacks more than once, you have the dates, ...once on Yom Kippur...with the goal of driving the Jews/Israel off of the map.

Clearly their goal was not to secure a Palestinian Homeland, whether Balfour's Declaration or other. Israel was within their borders before those attacks. Though having not started any of the wars in which they gained land, Israel, as you would agree, could have had the entire area at any time if they were the expansionists you say. Israel has never declared that they want the entire area. Using Zionism in your mode, it is illogical that they have never lauched an attack attempting to take over the entire area. They do not want to lose Israel though.. Yet their neighbors have announced their intentions many times. You remain incorrect, there is no Land of Israel on their maps, deny all you want.

Israel has never been attacked in an effort to create a Palestinian Homeland.. but rather in an effort to eliminate the Jewish one. The Palestinians that we would certainly agree are being brutalized are pawns of the powerful Arab entities. These entities love the public relations spin and any world sympathy that Palestinian suffering generates...so they won't lend a hand to their plight either. They do not care one iota for the Palestinians, have always regarded them as filth, as dirt. Always. Always. These nations want this to be Israel's problem, they have always washed their hands of these unwanted, unadopted transients and now it works on the World Stage against Israel. And you buy it.

Any changes in the original borders are the result of Arab aggression being turned back. The Arab aggression was not to create Palestine. And much land was returned ...for peace agreements. Unprecedented, brilliant, and admirable. They were even willing to go back to pre 1967 borders, this was viewed as an insult by the folks you say have offered many counteroffers. I'm sure you would agree that Balfour also intended it to be clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing Jewish communities in Israel, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country. Clearly attacks on Israel on virtually day one of it's new existence ended any hopes of this Utopian vision from materializing for either side. Not Israeli attacks, mind you. And now it's 60 something years later. You think the borders should be where? You think the Arab negotiators would accept your borders? You think Abbas won't be killed if he signs off? You think he forgot Sadat was killed?

Counteroffers? What counteroffers? Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, get over it. Arabs and Christians have full access to it. I can not step in Mecca or many many other Arab cities.

Much of the West Bank will be surrounded by the Israeli military? You mean like a threatening seige? Can you dig the irony? Unless there really isn't a reason to fear being surrounded anymore.

I'm out of breath and I never want to repeat all this again nor read the same old same old from you either. But if it is really as simple as your last line for you, that you support but do not wish to fund, a lot less ink could have been used. I understand the political opinion that does not want our money or resources to go to any countries, I don't agree but I understand that debate.
HockeyDad Offline
#49 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,187
Frank,

I never said Israel launched wars to seize land. The reality is the last arab-Israeli war was in 1973, 37 years ago. In the outcome of the '67 and '73 wars, Israel parked a lot of military equipment on land that was not Israel before the wars and even built a bunch of roads and settlements for a few hundred thousand people on that land. But it was not seized! The Israelis just haven't gotten around to packing up and leaving! Why are those couple of hundred thousand Jewish settlers in the West Bank??

Since 1973 the Israelis have sent the tanks into Lebanon, Gaza, the West Bank, and Lebanon again. Each time the other adjacent arab nations sat it out. The next arab-Israeli war has not materialized.

Your description is one of endless war with no possibility of peace and that is the overall defense for what I have pointed out as problems. (except Jordan and Egypt already have peace treaties and that messes up the theory) If it is endless war there is no reason to offer viable borders, peace, or any solution to the current situation other than it must go on into infinity. It is just a 37 year old lull in the fighting.

The unwanted, unadopted transient Palestinians are Israel's problem because they are in Israel-occupied territory. Israel could easily just declare them to be independent, draw some lines in the sand, and tell the UN to come clean it up. After 43 years, it is pretty clear that the Palestinians aren't just going to pack up and move to Jordan. Do the same thing repeatedly, expect different results.

To maintain the Israeli seige mentality, it needs enemies. The whole World Stage has been turned against Israel even though Israel can do no wrong. Essentially, you are guaranteeing that there must be another arab-Israeli war and you are OK with that. The whole world hates poor little Israel and the arabs are just reloading. Maybe that just is how it has to be in that part of the world and we should launch another Christian crusade and clean the whole nest out. We wouldn't seize the land though, just park a bunch of military stuff on it, forever.

You're going to have to make peace eventually. Israel already won. Endless war is expensive and that is why Israel is still sucking off our teat. The arab world is already on its knees when it comes to Israel. Asking them to get on the hands and knees is a bit too much.

...and I still don't see Israel launching a no-fly zone over Libya. I thought they would have our backs in the next war.
HockeyDad Offline
#50 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,187
By the way, take a google at:

J Street
New Israel Fund
Americans for Peace Now

Are they also your enemy?

http://www.peacenow.org/map.php

Here is a really cool interactive map on the West Bank settlements based on Google Map technology.

Can you come up with any good reasons as to why there are a few hundred thousand Israelis in West Bank settlements?
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