America's #1 Online Cigar Auction
first, best, biggest!

The next arab-Israeli war hasn't happened in 37 years because of the events of the 1973 war, not because Israel is ever vigilant, not because of "never again", not because of endless war, not because of endless defense, and not because of seige mentality. The situation and the world is different now and Israel has failed to adapt and is gloriously failing again right now.

The 1973 war proved that Israel was not invincible. It also proved that Israel couldn't be wiped out through conventional war. Although on the ground it pretty much was fought to a stalemate, what changed is Israel readied their nuclear arsenal when things weren't looking good. The USSR also readied their nuclear arsenal and the USA went on nuclear alert. It is also believed that the USSR sent nuclear warheads to Egypt. Low and behold, a cease fire was arranged.

Under the endless war/endless defense method of operation, here is how the next arab-Israeli war plays out. There are something like 50 Muslim countries, 20+ that are arab. One billion muslims versus 9 million Israeli Jews. If Israel really wants to sit back and wait for war #5 and try to go 5-0, OK fine.

Here's your scenario: Pakistan moves 30 nuclear warheads to Syria very secretly. A combined nuclear launch and air attack overwhelms the Israel defenses just enough that missles get through. 6-7 nuclear detonations and Israel is destroyed. Ground troops mop up the rest. With submarines and missle silos, Israel has seond strike capability and a bunch of arab cities go up in nuclear detonations so there is a steep price to pay. The Palestinians get the most radiated areas of Israel for their homeland. Israel is now 4-1 and eliminated from the tournament. Thanks for playing.

Now let's try the peace approach instead:

The reality is a whole lot of those arab and/or Muslim nations don't really give a crap about Israel any more. The armies aren't poised on the border. The bombs haven't been going off in Israeli marketplaces for years. You have to get past the old threats to deal with the future.

Arab leaders do not fear Israel. Right now they fear democracy, change, freedom, and like every politician-loss of power. So now you start working your way around the borders to improve relations.

Egypt: Already have a peace treaty. Just ousted Mubarak. Might want to start contacting some of the presidential candidates. There are some good ones already announced.

Jordan: Already have a peace treaty.

Palestinians: Time to end the camps. It is going to cost a lot of West Bank territory and Jewish settlements. This is the #1 issue that makes Israel a pariah and rogue state. A Egyptian style nonviolent protest in the West Bank and Gaza wold be the absolute worst thing for Israel right now.

Syria: Almost had a peace treaty completed but negotiations fell apart when Israeli tanks rolled into Gaza. Blue Line or Green Line. They were arguing over 100 yds in the Golan. Peace with Syria means less Iranian influence. Syria is more afraid of protests in the streets than Israel.

Lebanon: Hezbollah is now democratically elected in control of the government. They gained this strength because Israel invaded in 2006. Peace with Syria cuts some of their support and even now Hezbollah has to act like a government, not a terrorist organization or they will face uprisings.

Imagine the press conference.....

Q: What do you plan to do to improve schools?
A: Death to Israel.
Q: What are your plans to strengthen the economy?
A: Death to Israel.
Q: What about jobs?
A: Death to Israel.


Now let's see which path Israel is taking right now......Peace or endless war/defense.

Israel is still building settlements in the West Bank. Gaza is still a prison camp. There are no peace negotiations with Lebanon or Syria or Palestinians. Israel says beware of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. Israel says they may need another $20 billion from the USA for military aid. Israel wants the USA to bomb Iran.

End settlement construction and make peace with an independent Palestine and you nullify around 80% of the gripes against Israel.

Of all the inaccuracies/points we will never agree upon two posts up, I actually believe that I am not the only one laughing at "Lebanon: Hezbollah is now democratically elected in control of the government." They are in control alright. And they caused the destruction as described in my previous post. Setting up cowardly attacks from southern Lebanon (despite your claims there haven't been any ) is what caused the invasion!! Not sure that Lebanese people would agree about a legitimate democratic process. Backlash for sure, but ask the Lebanese Christians how delighted they are. Or non-radical Muslims. There are many.

Ask any Christians about Bethlehem (a little off the topic). Hell, ask Christians about oppression in any of these countries, may make you vomit.

Was I'madinnerjacket also elected in a legitimate democratic process? Pretty sure he has been open about his commitment to destroy Israel. Not reading that from you, though. And so on and so forth.

There are no other words to say when I keep saying endless defense , and you keep claiming I am saying endless war/endless defense. You say the war is over for decades. Make up your mind. You are simply wrong about why Israel is still around. We wish Homeland turns out as reliable. And the Israeli army stopping 90 miles outside of Cairo (the joke goes that they had to stop Friday at sundown for Shabat) was a huge part of the treaty that followed.

But here is where you are correct:

You are correct when you say Arab leaders no longer fear Israel. They should not fear Israel for Israel is not looking to wipe them out, just to make sure they understand Israel ain't going away either.

And you are also correct when you say the world has and is changing...except for those folks stuck in a world worshipping death to the infidels. Israel shines in the development of all things improving life from medicine to technology, to agriculture etc etc (do you really need links, doesn't everyone know this?) This is where the rest of the world should focus its energy and efforts...on pulling these people out of their 500 year old mind jail. They must change, they need help to change, Israel is already instrumental in developing the modern world. No nations will be truly safe until the lunatics catch up. So you are right the world has changed, but you are wrong in who you think is out of step. Even America is not safe from them until they join the rest of modern humanity

There are many peace loving devout Muslims in towns around my home and they are distraught about the terrorists and the situation. They and their majority brothers and sisters all over the world (they vastly outnumber radical Islamists) need to strap on a few million pairs and start taking control of their religion.

The number one time you are correct...End settlement construction and make peace with an independent Palestine and you nullify around 80% of the gripes against Israel:

I could be convinced of this.

Excellent! Thank you, very funny and also poignant. There will be peace between us soon. Short retorts first, OK?

1) I didn't question if it was a legitimate democratic election because I didn't get what I wanted, I question it based of the fact that it wasn't legitimate. Intimidation, Hezbollah controlled...fairly accepted as what happened by the rest of the world. Never would get a pro Israel result, even if not rigged, but a better chance for peace with more moderates in charge. Democracy and freedom should have risks, and sometimes I lose. Still, fearful that Syria and Hezbollah are redundant terms...hope you are right about weeding out, seriously, it is something to root for.

2) Didn't mean to tie in Bethlehem with Israel, that's why I said "off the topic". But as an example of how nicely your side would treat you shortly after landing here! You blame Israel's treatment, c'mon man, they been killing you guys for centuries, also before new Israel. They treat Jews worse. Maybe someday you can be allowed in Bethlehem. But I definitely meant it as a side bar.

3) Not much dispute about Iran between us. Agree with cultivation. Hate him or not, Obama is trying to get some kind of message inside that country, maybe he is being foolish, maybe an embarrassment in the eyes of many here, but refusing to even talk to them adds decades to the stalemate. 114%? Closer than I thought. The over/under was 126%. But if and when they become desparate, Iran's leaders could lash out...WHO YOU GONNA CALL? Israel, not Ghostbusters or the love-in bunch from OPEC. Spare me france and germany.

4) Maybe Russia was a factor in Israel stopping...maybe not. But A) Israel did not want to take over Egypt, they wanted Egypt to get the fear of G-d in them and never attack again. Mission accomplished. And B) for the record, it was Shabat.

5) Not so close on radical Islam. It is the problem, or a huge deterent to peace. They are not into negotiating, they are absolutists...or else they wouldn't be called "radical". What am I missing in that definition. BUT, you are making my point with... "Islam has to fix that problem, not Israel or the USA or the world. Islam knows that during the dark ages they were the innovators, inventors, and best civilization. They also know that now they are backward-ass and that slide started well before Israel existed. This is a source of embarrassment." You are aware that you were agreeing with me, eh? I tell you when you are correct, would it kill ya to toss me a bone? I'm working hard here. Abbas might negotiate, and he'll be killed for doing so.

I hope you didn't previously think I felt Israel had to "fix" Islam's problems...just not get wiped out by them. Unfortunately, to protect oneself from absolutist radicals, well, packing up and backing up would only encourage them, not soften their 5 century fanaticism. Everyday Muslims have to emerge from their paralyzing cocoons and speak out LOUDLY. Israel will tread water to survive in the interim.

6) If you mean that you would then fund, then at least use Jewish terms. Say "I pledge (fill in the blank) dollars." I though you were more familiar with our ways!

It all still comes down to the fact that there are two camps of thought in Israel.

Left: Land for peace. It worked with Egypt and Jordan.

Right: Endless war/defense. The arabs are just reloading. Peace will only come from absolute surrender of everyone to us. Colonize the West Bank for Greater Israel. Jordan should declare itself the Palestinian state and the Palestinians should leave the West Bank and Greater Israel. We will go 5-0! Oh, and we may need another $20 billion from the US to do it. Sure the whole world is against us but they're all anti-Semites.

The USA funds Israel regardless of which camp is in power and gets nothing in return. Do the same thing, expect different results.

Israel has lost the worldwide war of public opinion and diplomacy because of the West Bank settlements. Israel will have to repair that. The current course is only going to result in a UN unilateral declaration of an independent Palestine complete with UN and possibly NATO peacekeepers.

I try...I'll be here all week...try the fish and don't forget to tip your waitress!

Have you noticed that you haven't offered a single solution to the Palestinian problem?

You're so busy researching to win a debate on a cigar forum that you forget what I wrote over several posts. I will try to Reader's Digest some highlights for...the...last...time...

Why does Israel...they believe it is their land, their roads, your opinion, my opinion means nothing. They have reasons you evidently can not fathom that they believe make it good for them. They may be wrong, maybe not, I wasn't in the meetings when they decided to move in. You are not tapped into their esteemed intelligence.

I don't want the Palestinians gone, you are quoting yourself supposedly quoting me again. You said dumped on Jordan, I said Jordan wouldn't take them, they created them. I said Jordan et al should help them (they don't). Many may end up Israeli citizens, many already are, living and working and being educated in Israel. Very desirable lifestyle for upwardly mobile people. Dark Agers...er, not so much. You can say exterminate. It doesn't apply to this case. But it sure does set the mood for you, just didn't work on me. Reset.

Refuse to make peace...Oy, so stupid. Israel has been to the table many times, with the Power du Jour over the years, once offered 98% of the land that was asked for. It was angrily rejected, no counteroffer, leaving us to surmise a compromise is out of the question. Jerusalem seemed to be part of that problem, we are left to guess. Israel's capital is Jerusalem, get over it. You can not negotiate with terrorists (as opposed to everyday suffering Palestinians being used by terrorists). Whatshisname (replaced Arafat) is almost powerless probably BECAUSE HE MIGHT find a compromise!!Radicals have no flexibility or they would be bad radicals, they do not have "compromise" in their dictionary. Everyone else seems to get this. Oh yeah, Israel will negotiate, check out your boys track record.

Peace will be negotiated and a state will be established when non-radical Muslims regain control...I am paraphrasing yours and my words from before. Somehow you made my point earlier, this we have stated in common: It is Islam's problem. But you want it to be Israel's...hey, good luck there. Modern Muslims MUST take back there religion for meaningful talks to occur. Modern Muslims are cowering in shameful silence. You really think Isarel can expect a serious dialogue with those making their brethren cower? Defense is not war mongering...but terrorism sure is.

Money...The new Tea Party agrees with you, No funding period. There's a recruitment center somewhere near you. You should be mad at the US, not Israel. Remember, your vote counts. It's just different than mine. Gotta love legitimate democracy.

Contributions...come on, you know better. Won't dignify that again. Hate all you want, but don't distort their excellence. You do the googling, I'm really low tech. I didn't even look up Whatshisname's name (what is his name, Abass? seriously I am at a loss)

A little rock...guess I have to be the one to tell you but if you give them a little rock, they might throw it through your window. They won't take it, and have turned down WAY more!

"In negotiations with arabs, the most important thing to them is saving face. They will never completely surrender. Another 100 years of war would be preferred over total loss of face."...Dude, I couldn't have said it better myself, thank you so much. Phew.

Smoke if you got 'em.







I

Once again, you offer no solution for peace.

Just maintain the status quo. You've already convinced yourself that there cannot be peace because they'll throw the rock back so why try. Waiting for more moderate Muslims to come along isn't going to make things better. It is a chicken-egg thing.

This all leaves you squarely stuck in the right wing camp. Play for 5-0.

I do business in that part of the world. I have coworkers in Israel, business partners in Lebanon. The people I know there don't want to live under the reality that the only option is to play for 5-0 or 1-4 in the next round of an eternal war. The thing is, they're the one standing on the playing field. However, there are plenty wanting the next round so WAR ON!


Pepin JJ Maduro. Not like a Gurkha which I refer to as Palestinian cigars 'cause they explode.

Madison is a nice place. I wouldn't give it the Israelis or the Palestinians.

Besides, it is one of the liberals' Holy Sites!

Has anyone besides me been to Israel and seen the historical and holly sites? Went to Bethlehem, Dome of the Rock, Temple Mount, The Old City, Golan Heights, Masada, several churches , holy Christian and Jewish burial sites, places, ancient ruins, an archaeological dig, Dead Sea Scrolls, where Jesus walked, etc. Perhaps that gives me a different perspective...

One thing you seem to be missing is knowing who the enemy is and where. You can't lump them all together and then wait for some global Islamic solution.

The Palestinian Authority is the West Bank. These are moderates.
Hamas is a terrorist organization in Gaza.
Hezbollah is a terrorist organization in Lebanon and rather strong.

My focus has been on the West Bank and the Palestinians. This is where the settlements are. This is where the ball is in Israel's court. This is where the occupation is and there is opportunity for peace. This is the flashpoint and the first domino for war or peace. When the West Bank shifts back to radicals.....fine, start the next war and go for 5-0.

My point all along has been the USA has no business funding this mess. We've poured over $100 billion into Israel and got nothing in return and will continue to get nothing in return. It is not overwhelming frustration, it is pointing out a policy that can't be defended in the post Cold War era. Israel doesn't need our money but, they enjoy spending it. The reality is the US left and right are both well conditioned and well lobbied to keep sending this money even though they can't explain why but they will trip over themselves to send more money to buy the Jewish vote. That is the comedy. It has nothing to do with the Israeli left and right.

As for business......energy. Electricity, nuclear, oil, natural gas, ethanol, biodiesel, solar, wind power. Worldwide. We have enough offices in enough places that we get around any geopolitical issues. We don't send women to the middle east. We don't send Americans to Venezuela. Americans go to the friendly sheikdoms, Turks to the less friendly. Canadians can go anywhere! Someone who has been to Israel doesn't go to a number of arab countries and vice versa.

As for the Israeli region, what little market there is we already have pretty much cornered for our domain. If there were another war and Israel suffered damage to the electrical grid, power plants, oil terminals, and pipelines, we would definitely get an increase in work! It would be paid for by the USA and we would staff it from Spain. Our partner in Lebanon got work once when Israel bombed a Lebanese substation. (I guess they thought there were PLO hiding behind a transformer! Cool thing....the USA paid for the jet and the bombs and the USA paid for the reconstruction!) I assume you thought I wanted to sell deodorant in the West Bank and Israel was blocking my efforts!

In the grand scheme of things and as industrialized as Israel is, one mid-sized city in China can easily provide far more revenue and profit than all of Israel even if it were rebuilding after a war. (and they both pay in US Dollars!)

You can't find Good hot dogs anywhere in the Mid East

(0(0)
(='.’=)
(")(")




Turkey Dogs !

(0(0)
(='.’=)
(")(") The other Kosher meat

I would take a kosher hot dog over any middle eastern food!

....but I don't think I would even try to buy a car from a Jew or an arab. It would take a year to figure out what the final price was.