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A big mistake is cooking a cake @ 425 instead of 375 degrees.

Sometimes the inmates try to shank a guard.

Perhaps Obama will rush to Palestine and broker a peace accord.


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PAX OBAMA !

Sounds a lot like 'suicide by cop' to me.

Gosh, I am surprised. This was supposed to be the easy part, wimpy rockets and all.

Do you actually expect Hamas to just give power over to the Palestinian Authority? They won the election and are the largest gang in the prison.

However, saying Israel can't make peace with the Palestinian Authority because of Hamas in Gaza or Hezbollah in Lebanon or we don't want to get Abbas killed is a cop out. Might as well throw in that Israel can't make peace with the West Bank until the Japanese nuclear reactors are rebuilt.

In the meantime, build some more Jewish settlements in the West Bank because collective punishment is awesome! (Unless you are on the receiving end)

If the ball is in their court, the next serve will be a UN general assembly resolution this fall declaring an independent Palestine based on the pre-1967 war borders. Over a half a million Jews will be in Palestine.

Israel might want to try that peace thing instead. Either that or step up to the plate and have our backs in Libya!

Nope. I'm saying PA can't make peace with Israel because of the militant wings. You have me reversed. Militant wings, as in eternal war. That is why they exist, but they have taken too much of the political control, mostly by force on their own people. And winning a prison election...I dunno.

Yeah, I must be nuts to think Hamas would work with the folks trying to gain peace, recognize Israel, and achieve statehood. Why would they ever back that? What would be in it for them? They'd be voting themselves out of a job. Why do you think I keep saying there can be no peace until there really is a cohesive Palestinian people...where in your plan does that happen?

And you think that they'd take what they refused in 1948? You mean when Israel was attacked on DAY ONE? And refused several times after that? Do you think they would sign up for that now? Really? I smell Jihad. And they consider you an infidel, btw. Despite your attempts to sell them deodorant. Israel just considers you wrong, not a capital punishment in their system of justice. Good luck when the militants take over. They'll appreciate your support.

You need Israel where it is, France is doing great, and they speak Libyanese. Probably.

Oh, the settlements do suck. Make it tougher, no question. Get your side on the same page and Israel will stop voting in hard liners. They have gone back and forth in their elections. He does not have solid backing. There have been leaders who would have been easier to deal with but I guess the mood wasn't quite right. Maybe you know what was wrong then that would be so great now??

You and I could work out a plan, I nodded alot when I read your post on the last thread...but I knew it was dismissing some reality, and today we see an inkling.

Frank,

So Israel would be glad to make peace with the Palestinians in the West Bank but can't because of the militant wing. Poor Israel, just sitting there wanting peace and having nothing to do but build more settlements in the West Bank until all the militants vanish.

You keep finding reasons for talking your way out of even trying to find peace. Thus guaranteeing future war. oh wait, defense.

Even Israel knows the clock is ticking on Israel. The United Nations and EU have tired of the fact that over 40 years have passed trying to find a solution for the Palestinians. Nobody supports West Banks settlements, land grabs, and ethnic cleansing. (The Gaza Strip is already ethnic cleansed, with barbed wire fences even!)

Rfenst hits some very good points. The Palestinian Authority will fall to Hamas in a year if they can produce no peace results. An Israeli desired subjugation/surrender won't cut it. They will need to show success and that will mean maybe 100,000+ Jews will have to relocate from the West Bank. Time is not on Israel's side.

The arab population in Israel is outgrowing the Jewish population. The arab population of Jerusalem is growing at twice the rate of Jews. By 2035, Jerusalem will be 50/50 arab/Jew. The West Bank cannot be annexed to form Greater Israel without ethnic cleansing of 2 million Palestinians just in the West Bank. Otherwise Israel will be rapidly approaching the point of losing Jewish majority.

Israel has a problem with more Israelis leaving each year then immigrating in. The fall of communism fed a million new Jews to Israel from Russia and eastern Europe but that has tailed off. Only a mass exodus from the USA could change the situation.

Without firing a shot, pure demographics and population growth rates say Israel as a Jewish State is done.

So maybe the ball to make peace actually is in Israel's court.

Here's the response:


Palestinians wounded in Israeli air strikes

At least 17 people, including children, injured in military attacks on Gaza Strip, witnesses say.
Last Modified: 22 Mar 2011 03:17

The Israeli army confirmed one of the raids, saying Hamas-affiliated fighters had been targeted [AFP]

At least 17 people, including children, have been wounded in a series of Israeli air strikes on the Gaza Strip, Palestinian emergency workers said.

Witnesses and medics said Israeli jets carried out at least five air strikes late on Monday in the northern town of Beit Lahiya and Gaza City.

Witnesses said a security compound for Hamas, which controls the Gaza Strip, a training camp north of the city and a brickworks and metal foundry in northern Gaza were among the targets.

An Israeli military spokesman said aircraft attacked a total of six targets, including two arms manufacturing facilities and two "terror tunnels" which he said were intended for staging attacks under the border fence into Israel.

He said that the raids were in response to a wave of 56 rocket and mortar attacks from Gaza into Israel since Saturday and that the military held Hamas "solely responsible for terrorist activity in the Gaza Strip and warns Hamas not to continue its aggression".

Cross-border fire

The Ezzedine al-Qassam Brigades, the military wing of Hamas, had earlier said it would stop cross-border fire into Israel if the Israelis halted attacks on Gaza.

It said rocket fire into Israel on Saturday had been in response to an Israeli strike last week which killed two of its members, but the group said it was ready to call an end to the tit-for-tat violence if Israel also did so.

"If the enemy stops the escalation and aggression against our people we will implement the Palestinian national agreement," the AFP news agency reported, citing a statement from the group.

The statement referenced a truce reaffirmed by Gaza's main armed factions in January.

The offer, however, came with a warning attached: "The enemy will pay a heavy price if it continues its aggression and crimes against our people in the Gaza Strip."

Informal truce

In a later statement, Hamas spokesman Taher al-Nunu said the movement's Gaza government was committed to preserving the informal truce, with the backing of other groups, AFP reported.

"The government affirms that there is consensus among the factions regarding the security situation in the Strip," he said.

Also on Monday, Danny Ayalon, Israel's deputy foreign minister, issued a threat against Hamas leaders.

"If Hamas decides to escalate, we will put an end to it... We have several actions before putting ground forces in Gaza, including direct threats against Hamas leaders," Ayalon told public radio.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2011/03/2011321231128318380.html

Please pass the grape jelly!

Sure, the Israelis struck Egypt first. By surprise. But, that in and of itself does not make doing so wrong. Neither does firing the first round of the war. From a pro-Israel perspective, attacking Egypt was justified because Egypt had begun amassing troops on the Israel Egyptian border, which was interpreted as a major threat, which justified attacking first.

As to the West Bank and the capture of the Temple Mount and ancient Jerusalem. That was not part of the original plan. However, from a pro-Israel perspective, Jordan, which controlled the West bank at the time, had a security agreement with Egypt which involved reciprocal agreements to defend one another should either find itself at war with Israel. Pro Israel "facts" include that Jordan began sending troops towards the Egyptians to aid them. Jordan also began began shelling parts of Jerusalem and areas close to Tel Aviv. Israel implored Jordan not to get involved, but Jordan refused replying to the effect that: "the die was already cast" by then and ramped up on its side.

As to the Golan, the "fact" is that Syria came into the war late, but began its involvement by shelling down from The Heights onto Israeli kibbutzim (collective farming and communities).

From a pro-Israel perspective, the above version of events/history are considered sufficient reasons for Israel to attack first (as opposed to "starting it"). On the other hand, a pro-Arab perspective would dispute the accuracy of every aspect of the the version above. It would pretty much deny these "facts" and would add different perspectives on the events and "facts" allegedly omitted above.

The bottom line of what I am trying to say here is that not much, if anything, can even be agreed upon regarding the (1967) Six-Day War, which occurred some 40+ years ago. No one really knows what the "honest to god" historical truth is, or is likely even capable of determining it. In my opinion, people make up their mind about which side they support and then believe only those sets of "facts" that justify whatever they have already made their mind up about.

The bottom line is that Israel will never voluntarily give up control of The Temple Mount or Western Wall and Arabs will never give up control of the Dome of the Rock (which Jews and Christians have a claim to as well. I believe that this is the true essence to the problem, which will never be resolved before there is another war. Thus, I truly and sadly believe that there will NEVER be a lasting peace because neither side can forget about the past and put it behind themselves.

The 1967 war isn't about right or wrong. War was brewing and Israel launched a surprise attack and kicked ass. It was brilliant and executed perfectly. The problem is war that results in territorial gain no longer results in international recognition of that gain and after 40 years it is pretty clear that Israel has had some difficulty with returning that territory. The West Bank settlements are the icing on the cake.

If it were me, I would have accidentally destroyed the Dome of the Rock and then build the Third Temple.

This fall, UN recognition of a Palestinian state based on pre-1967 borders. It is coming. An Israeli-Palestinian Authority peace in the West Bank that results in land swaps, some relocation of Jewish settlements, and a East Jerusalem for Palestine would head off the storm on the horizon.

Israel has had a good run since 1948 but I'm not in favor of trying to go 5-0. The previous 3000 years pretty much sucked for Israel and the Jews.

HD,

Very true. And there lies the difference, as Israel has always ackowledged the other sides right to exist....

The only question is boarders, security etc...

Simple don't ya think? The other side makes a mistake, they lose some land, maybe a couple of towns. Israel losses and well no country and no place to go.... Heck the Arab countries could have handled and solved the "Palestinian issue" if they actually wanted to.....The poor "Palestinians" have been the pawns in the Mideast since 1948....

Topper,

Whenever I hear someone say the arab countries could have handled the Palestinian issue, it always translates to the arab countries could have packed up and moved the millions of Palestinians to some piece of land in some other arab country like Jordan so that Israel could have the entire West Bank to create Greater Israel with an ethnically pure Jewish nation. The Palestinians don't want to leave.

Is that what you mean?

I'm not saying I couldn't be in favor of ethnic cleansing and forced relocation (it does work) but when you're moving 5 million people, it is quite obvious.

don't you mean "declare everyone as non-voting citizens?

They could have accepted the 1948 borders. They didn't. Now it is 2011. Israel would not accept those borders now.

The fact that Israel is 4-0 is not inconvenient to most. That is a straw man. Israel is 4-0 because they kicked ass in a number of wars through good military strategy. I would prefer to not see Israel eventually take that first loss.

I am capable of discussing this or abortion unemotionally. I am fully aware of the playbook which makes anything remotely related to Israel's actions or the West Bank. If someone criticizes Israel in any way, they are an anti-Semite. If someone calls for US funding to Israel to be eliminated, they are an anti-Semite. If a Jew, especially and American Jew, does any of this they are a self-loathing Jew that has forgotten their roots. This has been very effective in maintaining US funding and I don't expect that to change because politicians are terrified of these labels. That doesn't make it true or right, just effective. We all know the US will cut funding for school lunches for needy children before we cut funding to Israel for fighter jets and cluster bombs. That is our moral cross to bear.

There are some fundamental questions that have to be answered by Israelis (and American Jews) before there can be peace.

1. Is the West Bank including East Jerusalem part of Greater Israel.
2. Should arabs be expelled from Israel to form an ethnically pure state.
3. Should Israel have built Jewish settlements on Palestinian land in the West Bank to colonize it.
4. Should Israel continue building Jewish settlements in the West Bank.


Israel is split on these questions. The American Jewish community is split on these questions. I'm not asking anyone here to answer them. I know how much trouble the answers cause. The answers will drive whether Israel can make peace with the Palestinians or even define what is an acceptable 2 state solution for Israel.

Maybe a bunch more Israelis and Palestinians need to die. I'm OK with that. I just don't want to keep dumping US tax dollars down that pit.

HD,

Since Robert is writing up a reply and we are generally of the same thinking on Israel, plus quite frankly he is a better writer than I so I will defer to him...

And by the way I don't always agree with what Israel does... I don't for one thing think they should continue building settlements... But it's not my call, it's theirs! I do however think US aid is OK, I don't think someone is an Anti-Semite who believes aid should be ended, just think they are wrong... I do think most people that are anti Israel on almost anything have an issue with Jews... That is just based on personal observation...

Frank,

I see you still struggling with the West Bank settlements and I feel your pain.

It wasn't a planned land grab. Accidental land grab maybe! Maybe there just wasn't enough gasoline for the army to leave and they've been trying to save up for gas money for 43 years.

Israel's goal is not to own it all. Maybe the settlers in the West Bank were just visiting and ran out of gas and had no choice but to build new towns and subdivisions for a few hundred thousand Israeli Jews.


The whole problem might just be a lack of gas stations in the West Bank.

the casinos would provide plenty of job opportunties also... maybe they could get the Somali Pirates to work for them...

Exactly ! But it's much easier to blame the Israelies

Palestinians not a majority in Jordan?
I'd heard that up to 70% of the population consider themselves to be Palestinian. Abdul Hamid Sharif, Prime Minister of Jordan declared, in 1980, that he, Palestinians, and Jordanians do not belong to different nationalities. They hold the same Jordanian passports, are Arabs and have the same Jordanian culture.



Wikipedia: "In 1949, Trans-Jordan officially changed its name to Jordan; in 1950, it annexed the West Bank of the Jordan River, and brought Palestinian representation into the government.

At the time, the population east of the Jordan River contained over 400,000 Palestinian refugees who made up one-third of the population; another third of the population was Palestinians on the West Bank. Only one third of the population consisted of the original inhabitants of Trans-Jordan, which meant that the Jordanians had become a ruling minority over a Palestinian majority. This proved to be a mercurial element..."




...and yes I knew that the ruling Hashemite kingdom, quashed the PLO rebellion & killed up to 10,000 in 1970. It was in all the papers...

Thanks Frank, but no, aside from the wikipedia blurb, hadn't done any research- just relying on my misfiring brain cells.
Don't know how the true makeup of the Jordanian population can be determined accurately however... Seems to me that Jordan should be carved up & a share given to the "Palestinians" vs. taking land from tiny Israel. Having said that, I don't think that'll satiate arab hunger to eradicate Israel.

I know that war is inevitable (again) even if concessions are made. I also know that we can't afford to sustain current foreign aid to anyone in the Middle East... and that God will protect his chosen people with or w/o American intervention.
As a Christian I feel a strong bond with my Jewish brothers.

(excuse my silly avatar)