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Ethanol is bad economic policy, bad energy policy and bad environmental policy
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DrafterX Offline
#1 Posted: Tue, Jun 14 2011, 3:36 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,557
Senate Rejects Measure to End Ethanol Tax Credits

Published June 14, 2011

The Senate on Tuesday rejected a proposal that would have eliminated ethanol tax credits worth $5 billion a year -- a stunning setback for conservatives who were rallying around it in recent days as a way to reduce the national debt.

Sen. Tom Coburn's, R-Okla., measure only drew 40 votes, way short of the 60 needed for passage. The proposal would have repealed a 54-cents-a-gallon tariff on imported ethanol, which restricts imports, mainly from Brazil.

Coburn forced a vote on his amendment to a bill that would renew a federal economic development program by filing cloture on it -- a rare procedural tactic that is usually employed by the majority party. But his maneuver backfired as angry Democrats revolted, a senior Democratic leadership aide told Fox News.

The ethanol industry and the powerful Americans for Tax Reform, among others, mobilized against Coburn, despite other conservatives, including the influential Club for Growth, supporting the amendment.

Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid said he'll give the effort another chance next week but Sen. Diane Feinstein, D-Calif., will offer the amendment instead. It may also include an effort to truly "open up the market" to alternatives" according to Sen. Tom Harkin, D-Iowa.

Coburn's effort had brought together two sides who rarely agree on anything: conservatives and environmentalists.

A coalition of different-minded groups, including the Sierra Club and the Union of Concerned Scientists, drafted a letter in March voicing support for ending the subsidy. Other groups in the coalition included Oxfam America, the National Restaurant Association and assorted meat, poultry and dairy producers.

Coburn argued that the tax credits are wasteful subsidies for an industry that no longer needs them.

"The days of placing spending programs in the tax code and giving them holy status are over," Coburn said. "Ethanol is bad economic policy, bad energy policy and bad environmental policy."



Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/06/14/senate-debates-eliminating-ethanol-tax-credits/#ixzz1PHi54BnQ


Film at 11..... Not talking
HockeyDad Offline
#2 Posted: Tue, Jun 14 2011, 4:19 PM EST
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,151
This post contains up to 10% outrage.
MTappert Offline
#3 Posted: Tue, Jun 14 2011, 4:28 PM EST
Joined: 04-27-2011
Posts: 1,085
ethanol is also bad for your motor mmmmkay
wheelrite Offline
#4 Posted: Tue, Jun 14 2011, 5:36 PM EST
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
MTappert wrote:
ethanol is also bad for your motor mmmmkay


That it is...

btw,
Flex Fuel vehicles mpg is reduced by 40% when running on E85.So,for it to be economically equivalent to reg gas it would need to be around $2.25 a gal
MCAddict Offline
#5 Posted: Thu, Jun 16 2011, 9:28 AM EST
Joined: 12-10-2007
Posts: 2,117
Read an article in Motorcycle Consumer News about the negative effect of ethanol (10%) use for fuels in bikes. Seems that certain Ducati's use a type of plastic for their fuel tanks that results in expansion. When service requires tank removal the mounting points are off by as much as one inch. So if you by a used Duck, look for a metal gas tank and hope the EPA doesn't increase ethanol more than 10%. Gonz
DrafterX Offline
#6 Posted: Thu, Jun 16 2011, 10:02 AM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,557
ram27bat BOYCOTT ETHANOL!!!!!!!
Homebrew Offline
#7 Posted: Thu, Jun 16 2011, 11:42 AM EST
Joined: 02-11-2003
Posts: 11,885
DrafterX wrote:
ram27bat BOYCOTT ETHANOL!!!!!!!


I try,
but the only station here, that sold ethanol free gas, was wiped out by a tornado a couple of weeks ago.

Dave (A.K.A. Homebrew)
DrafterX Offline
#8 Posted: Thu, Jun 16 2011, 12:08 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,557
Think Think
that sounds awefully suspicious to me..... Mellow
HockeyDad Offline
#9 Posted: Thu, Jun 16 2011, 12:10 PM EST
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,151
God likes ethanol.
DrafterX Offline
#10 Posted: Thu, Jun 16 2011, 12:14 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,557
HockeyDad wrote:
God likes ethanol.



no way man.... God doesn't even drive.... Satan created ethanol... Mellow
HockeyDad Offline
#11 Posted: Thu, Jun 16 2011, 12:49 PM EST
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,151
Ethanol is a renewable resource that provides a means to ween us off of middle eastern oil.
Brewha Offline
#12 Posted: Thu, Jun 16 2011, 2:19 PM EST
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,199
Ethanol was cast out of Eden.
Ethanol fosters the insidious doctrine of non-smoking bars.
Ethanol causes anal leakage.


Does it come from France?
HockeyDad Offline
#13 Posted: Thu, Jun 16 2011, 2:26 PM EST
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,151
No, it comes from the midwest!!!!!!
Brewha Offline
#14 Posted: Thu, Jun 16 2011, 2:27 PM EST
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,199
Ethanol caused polio.
Ethanol doesn’t put the same value on life that we do.
Ethanol is dirty and is a know carrier of Dengue Fever.
Ethanol wants to date your daughter
– and keep her out too late.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#15 Posted: Thu, Jun 16 2011, 2:43 PM EST
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,469
HockeyDad wrote:
Ethanol is a renewable resource that provides a means to ween us off of middle eastern oil.



And rob us of fields where we could be growing real corn used to actually feed humans.

Yes, let's continue to subsidize a product that cannot maintain it's own viability. A product that takes more resources to make than the good it delivers.

Maybe one day we'll have real politicians that could craft a one page bill with no riders to eliminate Ethanol. One day.

It's all coming down sooner or later. Can't continue to spin all of those plates forever.
Brewha Offline
#16 Posted: Thu, Jun 16 2011, 3:07 PM EST
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,199
THIS JUST IN;
Satan, the reigning Price of Darkness, has denied any involvement in the creation, production or distribution of ethanol. Through a smoky haze of brimstone and tormented cries Lucifer stated “I did not make that fuel. It must have been France”. The Horned One continued; “ . . . sell me your soul . . . follow me NOW!”
wheelrite Offline
#17 Posted: Thu, Jun 16 2011, 3:12 PM EST
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
ethanol IS a scam...

If it was a viable substitute there would be no need for any subsidies.The free market knows best...

What we have now is welfare for farmers,that's not a good thing..
HockeyDad Offline
#18 Posted: Thu, Jun 16 2011, 3:14 PM EST
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,151
The Global Renewable Fuels Alliance (GRFA) in cooperation with F.O. Licht released its global annual ethanol production forecast. The GRFA forecasts ethanol production to hit 23.4 billion gallons in 2011 replacing the need for 1 million barrels of crude oil per day worldwide. This highlights the growing impact that ethanol production is having on reducing the world’s reliance on crude oil.
wheelrite Offline
#19 Posted: Thu, Jun 16 2011, 3:20 PM EST
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
HockeyDad wrote:
The Global Renewable Fuels Alliance (GRFA) in cooperation with F.O. Licht released its global annual ethanol production forecast. The GRFA forecasts ethanol production to hit 23.4 billion gallons in 2011 replacing the need for 1 million barrels of crude oil per day worldwide. This highlights the growing impact that ethanol production is having on reducing the world’s reliance on crude oil.


a tiny drop in the bucket...

Petroleum is the cheapest most reliable fuel available now.Natural Gas will replace oil not high priced bio fuels.

The Free market knows best...

The GRFA sounds like some U.N. crap. Sorta like the Carbon Credit exchange scam,another ponzi scheme that thankfully fell apart...
teedubbya Offline
#20 Posted: Thu, Jun 16 2011, 3:21 PM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
corn gives me gas
HockeyDad Offline
#21 Posted: Thu, Jun 16 2011, 3:29 PM EST
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,151
wheelrite wrote:

Petroleum is the cheapest most reliable fuel available now.Natural Gas will replace oil not high priced bio fuels.





The USA imports oil.
The USA imports gasoline.
The USA imports natural gas.


Choose the form of the Destructor!
HockeyDad Offline
#22 Posted: Thu, Jun 16 2011, 3:30 PM EST
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,151
wheelrite wrote:

The Free market knows best...




Keep waiting for Atlas to shrug!
DrafterX Offline
#23 Posted: Thu, Jun 16 2011, 3:33 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,557
We should be burning hemp!!! Mad
wheelrite Offline
#24 Posted: Thu, Jun 16 2011, 3:49 PM EST
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
HockeyDad wrote:
The USA imports oil.
The USA imports gasoline.
The USA imports natural gas.



I beg to differ.We export huge amounts of gasoline too


U.S. Energy Information Administration - EIA - Independent Statistics and AnalysisSources & Uses Petroleum & Ot

U.S. exports of motor gasoline hit an all-time high in November 2010. The bulk of the record-level motor gasoline exports went to Mexico, where refinery maintenance during the month resulted in a tightening of gasoline supplies. November gasoline exports were equivalent to 5% of U.S. gasoline consumption.

U.S. exports of motor gasoline (including finished motor gasoline and motor gasoline blending components) hit a record level in November 2010 of 457 thousand barrels per day. The last time gasoline exports exceeded 400 thousand barrels per day was April 1945 when they were 419 thousand barrels per day.

About 92% of the exports were shipped from the U.S. Gulf Coast (PAD District 3), and about 70% of the exports went to Mexico.

Refinery maintenance in Mexico during the month resulted in a tightening of gasoline supplies in that country. Mexico has 6 refineries with a total capacity of about 1.5 million barrels per day, but the country consumed nearly 2.1 million barrels per day of petroleum products during 2009.

November 2010 data were consistent with the typical regional patterns for gasoline imports and exports. During all of 2009, 86% of U.S. motor gasoline imports entered into the East Coast, while 83% of U.S. motor gasoline exports were shipped from the Gulf Coast.

teedubbya Offline
#25 Posted: Thu, Jun 16 2011, 3:50 PM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
5%
jpotts Offline
#26 Posted: Thu, Jun 16 2011, 3:56 PM EST
Joined: 06-14-2006
Posts: 28,811
HockeyDad wrote:
Keep waiting for Atlas to shrug!


He won't need to when his pants are around his ankles.
HockeyDad Offline
#27 Posted: Thu, Jun 16 2011, 3:58 PM EST
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,151
U.S. DOE Weekly Petroleum Status Report for June 10 (Text)

Following is the text of the weekly Petroleum Status Report from the U.S. Department of Energy:

U.S. crude oil refinery inputs averaged about 14.9 million barrels per day during the week ending June 10, 243 thousand barrels per day below the previous week’s average. Refineries operated at 86.1 percent of their operable capacity last week. Gasoline production increased last week, averaging about 9.5 million barrels per day. Distillate fuel production decreased last week, averaging 4.3 million barrels per day.

U.S. crude oil imports averaged 8.6 million barrels per day last week, up by 38 thousand barrels per day from the previous week. Over the last four weeks, crude oil imports have averaged nearly 9.0 million barrels per day, 657 thousand barrels per day below the same four-week period last year.

Total motor gasoline imports (including both finished gasoline and gasoline blending components) last week averaged 1.1 million barrels per day. Distillate fuel imports averaged 125 thousand barrels per day last week.




Based on your record breaking month last November, we still import twice as much finished gasoline than we exported.

Scoreboard.
wheelrite Offline
#28 Posted: Thu, Jun 16 2011, 4:00 PM EST
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
teedubbya wrote:
5%


5% is large amount ...

There is no shortage of gasoline or oil.We have nowhere to store the supply on hand.Tankers are sitting off shore for months loaded with oil.Because,if they drop it then it counts as inventory and the price will continue to fall.
Without speculation oil should be no more than $70 a barrel.

btw,
the bottom is dropping out of the oil market,now.

The Free Market and stuff...

maybe Atlas IS shrugging...
teedubbya Offline
#29 Posted: Thu, Jun 16 2011, 4:03 PM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
wheelrite wrote:
5% is large amount ....


spoken as someone who is in the fifth percentile for male height in the US (7th in Japan!)
wheelrite Offline
#30 Posted: Thu, Jun 16 2011, 4:03 PM EST
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
HockeyDad wrote:
U.S. DOE Weekly Petroleum Status Report for June 10 (Text)

Following is the text of the weekly Petroleum Status Report from the U.S. Department of Energy:

U.S. crude oil refinery inputs averaged about 14.9 million barrels per day during the week ending June 10, 243 thousand barrels per day below the previous week’s average. Refineries operated at 86.1 percent of their operable capacity last week. Gasoline production increased last week, averaging about 9.5 million barrels per day. Distillate fuel production decreased last week, averaging 4.3 million barrels per day.

U.S. crude oil imports averaged 8.6 million barrels per day last week, up by 38 thousand barrels per day from the previous week. Over the last four weeks, crude oil imports have averaged nearly 9.0 million barrels per day, 657 thousand barrels per day below the same four-week period last year.

Total motor gasoline imports (including both finished gasoline and gasoline blending components) last week averaged 1.1 million barrels per day. Distillate fuel imports averaged 125 thousand barrels per day last week.




Based on your record breaking month last November, we still import twice as much finished gasoline than we exported.

Scoreboard.


I did'nt say that we don't imort gasoline.I pointed out that we export it as well.Thus,there is no oil or gasoline shortage.Therefore ethanol is not needed and is a scam..

game ,set ,match...
teedubbya Offline
#31 Posted: Thu, Jun 16 2011, 4:05 PM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
I took some gensing tea with me to canada and left it at the resort. therefor we also export gensing!
jpotts Offline
#32 Posted: Thu, Jun 16 2011, 4:05 PM EST
Joined: 06-14-2006
Posts: 28,811
Wasn't teedubbya that said that men of Texas have high estrogen levels?
teedubbya Offline
#33 Posted: Thu, Jun 16 2011, 4:07 PM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
jpotts wrote:
Wasn't teedubbya that said that men of Texas have high estrogen levels?


that is probably true.

and if you moved to canada we could say we export f a g s.
jpotts Offline
#34 Posted: Thu, Jun 16 2011, 4:09 PM EST
Joined: 06-14-2006
Posts: 28,811
You'd be the first export to Canada then.
HockeyDad Offline
#35 Posted: Thu, Jun 16 2011, 4:10 PM EST
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,151
wheelrite wrote:
I did'nt say that we don't imort gasoline.I pointed out that we export it as well.Thus,there is no oil or gasoline shortage.Therefore ethanol is not needed and is a scam..

game ,set ,match...




You are the only one who used the word "shortage" on this thread. Ethanol is and was never about meeting a shortage of gasoline. You are creating your own argument!

The USA imports oil.
The USA imports gasoline.
The USA imports natural gas.


Choose the form of the Destructor!
wheelrite Offline
#36 Posted: Thu, Jun 16 2011, 4:13 PM EST
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
HockeyDad wrote:
The Global Renewable Fuels Alliance (GRFA) in cooperation with F.O. Licht released its global annual ethanol production forecast. The GRFA forecasts ethanol production to hit 23.4 billion gallons in 2011 replacing the need for 1 million barrels of crude oil per day worldwide. This highlights the growing impact that ethanol production is having on reducing the world’s reliance on crude oil.


Your quote implies as much..
HockeyDad Offline
#37 Posted: Thu, Jun 16 2011, 4:13 PM EST
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,151
wheelrite wrote:
Your quote implies as much..




No it doesn't.
jpotts Offline
#38 Posted: Thu, Jun 16 2011, 4:16 PM EST
Joined: 06-14-2006
Posts: 28,811
Yes...yes it does.
stogiemonger Offline
#39 Posted: Thu, Jun 16 2011, 6:15 PM EST
Joined: 06-25-2009
Posts: 4,185
Heralded by Bush and now Obama as a good sustainable replacement fuel for gasoline. But is it?

A little quick research will clearly show that ethanol mandates by the government have already resulted in many unintended consequences. Here are just a few, increased ground ozone pollution directly as a result of burning ethanol fuels (ozone pollutant a byproduct of burning this fuel), increases of nitrogen pollution in waterways from fertilizers used to grow corn (contributes greatly to the annual dead zone (hypoxia) in the Gulf of Mexico), increases in food prices (due to gov. mandates that a percentage of all corn grown must go towards ethanol production= higher prices for consumable corn for humans as well as livestock), ethanol has a lower energy content than gasoline, so to meet the same energy demands, more gallons of ethanol would have to be produced, damage done to many engines across the nation (especially outboard boat engines).

I'm no expert in this field, to say the least, but, the more I read about ethanol fuel, the angrier I get that our government is shoving another bad pill down our throats. I did not get My information from Fox, Limbaugh, Hannity, Beck etc., This information can be had even at sources such as NPR, Scientific America, Climate Central, Green America etc. So, do some research of your own and inform your friends so that the U.S. Government can be pushed to stop this stupidity.

We should be rallying together from left to right to stop government ethanol mandates now!


This was the start of a previous thread here on the subject. http://www.cigarbid.com/...m/c/posts/601239/Ethanol
HockeyDad Offline
#40 Posted: Thu, Jun 16 2011, 7:10 PM EST
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,151
NASCAR uses 15% ethanol mixture.

IndyCar uses 100% ethanol.
MTappert Offline
#41 Posted: Fri, Jun 17 2011, 12:17 PM EST
Joined: 04-27-2011
Posts: 1,085
HockeyDad wrote:
NASCAR uses 15% ethanol mixture.

IndyCar uses 100% ethanol.






their motors only last a couple races. d'oh!
HockeyDad Offline
#42 Posted: Fri, Jun 17 2011, 12:31 PM EST
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,151
MTappert wrote:
their motors only last a couple races. d'oh!




That isn't much different than my F-150!
MTappert Offline
#43 Posted: Fri, Jun 17 2011, 12:50 PM EST
Joined: 04-27-2011
Posts: 1,085
HockeyDad wrote:
That isn't much different than my F-150!



oh snap! Herfing
Gene363 Offline
#44 Posted: Sat, Jun 18 2011, 6:53 AM EST
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,827
Stop whining! Archer Daniels Midland (ADM) bought enough politicians to compel us to PAY for ethanol. Corn syrup sales just didn't bring enough money.


Archer Daniels Midland: A Case Study In Corporate Welfare

by James Bovard

The Archer Daniels Midland Corporation (ADM) has been the most prominent recipient of corporate welfare in recent U.S. history. ADM and its chairman Dwayne Andreas have lavishly fertilized both political parties with millions of dollars in handouts and in return have reaped billion-dollar windfalls from taxpayers and consumers. Thanks to federal protection of the domestic sugar industry, ethanol subsidies, subsidized grain exports, and various other programs, ADM has cost the American economy billions of dollars since 1980 and has indirectly cost Americans tens of billions of dollars in higher prices and higher taxes over that same period. At least 43 percent of ADM's annual profits are from products heavily subsidized or protected by the American government. Moreover, every $1 of profits earned by ADM's corn sweetener operation costs consumers $10, and every $1 of profits earned by its ethanol operation costs taxpayers $30

One of the most politically charged debates in Washington revolves around business subsidies known as "corporate welfare." A number of policy organizations have published studies examining the corporate welfare phenomenon: what qualifies as corporate welfare, how much it costs taxpayers, and how much it damages the economy. This study examines the dynamics of corporate welfare somewhat differently by investigating ADM as a classic case study of how those subsidies are obtained, how the welfare state encourages such "rent seeking," and how such practices fundamentally corrupt the political life of a nation. Congress's expressed desire to foster a free marketplace cannot be taken seriously until ADM's corporate hand is removed from the federal till.

http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-241.html
fishinguitarman Offline
#45 Posted: Sat, Jun 18 2011, 9:20 AM EST
Joined: 07-29-2006
Posts: 69,152
HockeyDad wrote:
Ethanol is a renewable resource that provides a means to ween us off of middle eastern oil.





Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause
MACS Offline
#46 Posted: Sun, Jun 19 2011, 5:03 PM EST
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,804
HockeyDad wrote:
This post contains up to 10% outrage.


Yeah, but if it has that 10%, it's not nearly as efficient as pure outrage.

The gas in CA sucks ballz because ALL of it has at least 10% ethanol. Gas mileage sucks, and gas is more expensive here, and you have to buy it more often...

I hate this communist state.ram27bat
wheelrite Offline
#47 Posted: Sun, Jun 19 2011, 7:09 PM EST
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
MACS wrote:
Yeah, but if it has that 10%, it's not nearly as efficient as pure outrage.

The gas in CA sucks ballz because ALL of it has at least 10% ethanol. Gas mileage sucks, and gas is more expensive here, and you have to buy it more often...

I hate this communist state.ram27bat


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