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Musings on the 2nd Amendment
drnos Offline
#1 Posted:
Joined: 10-29-2003
Posts: 2,787
dpnewell, in a response to a post called "Interesting Reading" had this to say:

"When the 2nd Amendment was written, private citizens had weapons more powerful then the military. Kentucky long rifles could kill at 300 yards, and most Americans had the skill to do so. Military muskets at the time where very inaccurate, and where only affective out to 50 yards. Most cannon was in the hands of private citizens. The equivalent of fighter jets, tanks and machine guns being owned today by private citizens, while the military was armed with semi-auto sporting rifles."

Agreed. In fact, I have been thinking a lot about a trip I took my family on to Concord (or Lexington, one or the other) many years ago. The ranger told us about those fateful days.

The British Army was encamped in Boston. Only it wasn't really the 'British Army' it was OUR army, because we were British. They arose in the middle of the night to march out to Concord on a 'search and destroy' mission. Paul Revere (and William Dawes) rode out in front to warn the minutemen of their approach. The army first had to cross the Charles, so marched at night in wet boots and clothes. They were not a happy lot.

The minutemen, being forewarned, grabbed their rifles and kits and headed out into the woods. The soldiers reached Concord and entered houses there, confiscated weapons and powder, piled them in the town square and lit them on fire. The minutemen did not have a clear view of their town square, but saw the smoke rise in the morning sky. The word passed among them "Are they burning the houses?"; "They are burning the town."; "They are buring our wives and children alive in their homes!"

Perhaps fired up by their own misunderstandings, they ended up firing "the shot heard 'round the world."

[Please attribute any bad history to my own foggy recollection. I'm sure the park docent got it all absolutely correct.]

When the Revolution was over, and the Constitution was passed around for adoption, the people would not endorse it without 10 amendments, our Bill of Rights. Among these Rights: 4th Amendment ("The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated..."] and the 2nd Amendment (too well known to quote here). I tell the above story to illustrate why our forefathers were so insistent on their rights.

The 2nd Amendment was not insisted upon to preserve hunting arms. It was not even about personal protection from criminals. It was to protect the citizens against their government; to keep the government wary about the ability of the citizens to arise in revolution.

I started to wonder about the things dpnewell wrote about: were our revolutionary forefathers really on equal footing with the great army of England?

Indeed they were. The state of the art in weaponry consisted of muskets, cannons, and mortars. Washington's army was well supplied with all. In fact, the Americans could forge a new cannon and place it in the field faster than England could ship one across the Atlantic.

Now I have always considered myself a strict constructionist, conservative on the Constitution. What is says, what it means, was good enough for 200 years, it's good enough for today.

But the reality of weaponry and government size of 200 years ago just doesn't exist today. Even if we had the absolute, Constitutional right to bear arms equal to (or better than!) our government, the economic reality makes it impossible. Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, and 10 other billionaires could never field an air force equal to the USAF. Ships? Forget about it! Know what a carrier costs these days? Private ownership of nuclear-tipped ICBMs? Do we really want to go there?

If the citizens were to revolt against the US govt, they would have to do it the way every other nation does it today: they would have to turn the military to their side. Can a citizen's army arise to defeat a modern nation's military?

That said, is it time to re-think the 2nd Amendment for the 21st century?
HockeyDad Offline
#2 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,164
drnos wrote:
That said, is it time to re-think the 2nd Amendment for the 21st century?



Re-think as in eliminate it and issue a complete surrender to the Federal government?
Abrignac Offline
#3 Posted:
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,329
drnos wrote:


That said, is it time to re-think the 2nd Amendment for the 21st century?



NO
ZRX1200 Offline
#4 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,628
Explosives are HEAVILY REGULATED.

The argument being made that missles, Nukes, armed F16's will run rampant is a red herring.


sd72 Offline
#5 Posted:
Joined: 03-09-2011
Posts: 9,600
Maybe I could still protect myself from these local criminals with my guns. What are we rethinking?

victor809 Offline
#6 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
The argument isn't that overly destructive weaponry will run rampant.
The argument is that the 2nd amendment cannot, due to fiscal reasons, as well as "I don't want my neighbor **** to be allowed to buy a nuke" reasons, actually function as it was intended.

Simply can't.
Don't care how many good ole boy hunters we've got... they'd be wiped out by drones the instant they tried rising up.

Technology, and the prohibitive cost of technology, has neutered the 2nd Amendment.

With that in mind, the question is whether we keep it or not, and why do we defend keeping it?

(note, I'm for keeping it... for no other reason in my mind than "people making stupid decisions with guns makes better headlines than people making stupid decisions without guns"...)
tegulator Offline
#7 Posted:
Joined: 01-14-2013
Posts: 347
Congrats all involved...I'm now working on a paper about this very issue. :D
DrMaddVibe Offline
#8 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,513
tegulator wrote:
Congrats all involved...I'm now working on a paper about this very issue. :D



yes...you can make a brooch...a pterodactyl...oh look...a sale at Penny's!
HockeyDad Offline
#9 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,164
victor809 wrote:

Don't care how many good ole boy hunters we've got... they'd be wiped out by drones the instant they tried rising up.



Drone only historically can kill 2nd-in-commands. The good ole boys might have taken note of this and go with more of a matrix management structure.
tegulator Offline
#10 Posted:
Joined: 01-14-2013
Posts: 347
DrMaddVibe wrote:
yes...you can make a brooch...a pterodactyl...oh look...a sale at Penny's!


Love the reference!
DrMaddVibe Offline
#11 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,513
HockeyDad wrote:
Drone only historically can kill 2nd-in-commands. The good ole boys might have taken note of this and go with more of a matrix management structure.



The can be only one Neo.

Sorry. Mouse can write a code to include the lady in the red dress, but there can only be one Neo. The Architect said so.
victor809 Offline
#12 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
HockeyDad wrote:
Drone only historically can kill 2nd-in-commands. The good ole boys might have taken note of this and go with more of a matrix management structure.


... I don't think anyone considers them overly burdened with a sense of military strategy...
DrafterX Offline
#13 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,563
victor809 wrote:
... I don't think anyone considers them overly burdened with a sense of military strategy...



didn't you ever see 'Next of Kin'..??? Huh
drnos Offline
#14 Posted:
Joined: 10-29-2003
Posts: 2,787
Victor809: exactly! Circumstances have overtaken the purpose of the 2nd. I know gun control laws don't do what their supporters hope. But when 2nd amendment supporters waffle and say "I support banning bazookas, RPGs and tanks," well they don't fully support the 2nd amend.
ZRX1200 Offline
#15 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,628
I do fully support the 2nd amendment I agued this very subject ad nauseum with brewha.

You and Victor are still looking through the wrong lense IMO. The US military (govt) has FAR overstepped it's bounds. We have no business or constitutional reason to be playing world police. That is the 800lbs gorilla in the room. The relationship between the public and their 2nd amendment rights have not changed the way that the Government and Military has. Stop breath think.

When someone is trying to take your rights you should immediately see that person as an enemy to your liberty and find out their reasons.

"Reasonable gun laws" is a bullchit argument. WE ALREADY HAVE THEM (for those who fo NOT fully support the 2nd amendment as drnos pointed out).
Reasonable you can see the current push two ways:

1) dems who favor gun control are willing to IGNORE the fact that "assault style weapons" have not statistically killed as many people as (insert any random noun) and it makes them feel good or they believe helps re-election.

2) unpopular ideas require unpopular methods and this is as evil as 2nd amendment supports fear.


If you see those ^ two things as crazy or unreasonable then you are a among the sheep. If you believe #1 then I disagree but a reasonable conversation is possible.
Abrignac Offline
#16 Posted:
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,329
drnos wrote:
Victor809: exactly! Circumstances have overtaken the purpose of the 2nd. I know gun control laws don't do what their supporters hope. But when 2nd amendment supporters waffle and say "I support banning bazookas, RPGs and tanks," well they don't fully support the 2nd amend.



So what's your point?????
drnos Offline
#17 Posted:
Joined: 10-29-2003
Posts: 2,787
Abrignac wrote:
So what's your point?????


Don't know that I really have one. Think I admit I'm kinda confused on this.

I'm not trying to tell you "drop the 2nd Amendment, ban assault weapons (whatever that means), ban clips." I'm not saying "You can take my guns when you pry them..."

I think I'm really just pointing out that the way the world has changed, the 2nd Amendment, as originally conceived, is less relevant than any other right we have.
drnos Offline
#18 Posted:
Joined: 10-29-2003
Posts: 2,787
ZRX1200 wrote:
I do fully support the 2nd amendment I agued this very subject ad nauseum with brewha.


I'll want to look that thread up.

ZRX1200 wrote:
You and Victor are still looking through the wrong lense IMO. The US military (govt) has FAR overstepped it's bounds. We have no business or constitutional reason to be playing world police. That is the 800lbs gorilla in the room. The relationship between the public and their 2nd amendment rights have not changed the way that the Government and Military has. Stop breath think.


I'm sure I'm not following all of this. That we have ANY abridgement of our rights, the US courts have overstepped their bounds. But the "world police" point is lost on me. I am writing about domestic rights, so you will have to explain this 800 lb gorilla.

ZRX1200 wrote:
When someone is trying to take your rights you should immediately see that person as an enemy to your liberty and find out their reasons.


My essential point is that the 'right' for us to be absolutely, militarily equal with the US govt has been taken from us. Not only by the government, but by economic circumstances. It is irrelevant that courts have taken these rights if we couldn't hold them anyway.

ZRX1200 wrote:
"Reasonable gun laws" is a bullchit argument. WE ALREADY HAVE THEM (for those who fo NOT fully support the 2nd amendment as drnos pointed out).


I don't think the 2nd amendment allows anything like a "reasonable gun law." The right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

ZRX1200 wrote:
Reasonable you can see the current push two ways:

1) dems who favor gun control are willing to IGNORE the fact that "assault style weapons" have not statistically killed as many people as (insert any random noun) and it makes them feel good or they believe helps re-election.

2) unpopular ideas require unpopular methods and this is as evil as 2nd amendment supports fear.


If you see those ^ two things as crazy or unreasonable then you are a among the sheep. If you believe #1 then I disagree but a reasonable conversation is possible.


It is not crazy to say that any gun control is contrary to the 2nd amendment. Any infringement is infringement. But it is a physical, economic impossibility to arm yourself equal to the fed govt.
Abrignac Offline
#19 Posted:
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,329
drnos wrote:
Don't know that I really have one. Think I admit I'm kinda confused on this.

I'm not trying to tell you "drop the 2nd Amendment, ban assault weapons (whatever that means), ban clips." I'm not saying "You can take my guns when you pry them..."

I think I'm really just pointing out that the way the world has changed, the 2nd Amendment, as originally conceived, is less relevant than any other right we have.



Regardless of whether or not the second amendment is relevant or not really doesn't matter. This is another example of government's unlawful intrusion into the rights bestowed upon the citizens of the United States via the 2nd amendment. Period, end of debate!!!

If the gun control advocates want to take away arms, then they need to lead a SUCCESSFUL campaign to amend the constitution, 2/3's majority, 2/3's states ratify, etc.... Problem with that approach is it will not happen that way anytime soon. Since it hasn't been repealed, abolished, etc... My guess is enough citizens feel it is relevant regardless of the reason why.

MACS Offline
#20 Posted:
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,833
I think that the military is made up of a lot of the "good ol' boys" we speak of. The vast majority are conservative thinkers.

I'd like to believe that if the gov't ever tried to use the military against its own people, they wouldn't comply.
DadZilla3 Offline
#21 Posted:
Joined: 01-17-2009
Posts: 4,633
drnos wrote:
But it is a physical, economic impossibility to arm yourself equal to the fed govt.

Well, on one side we'd have what, 1.5 million active and 1.5 million reserve military personnel with all their attendant high tech weaponry...and on the other side we'd have about 70 million citizens with access to almost 300 million guns.
ZRX1200 Offline
#22 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,628
If you are unable to see the correlation between the Feds overstepps opposed to the attempted gun restrictions (agree or not) I won't waste my time.

What I wrote isn't hard to follow. "World Police" is the role our foreign policy has taken, and not strictly "our" interests. This spawned growth has created the disparity between federal arms and civilian.
Brewha Offline
#23 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,201
ZRX1200 wrote:
If you are unable to see the correlation between the Feds overstepps opposed to the attempted gun restrictions (agree or not) I won't waste my time.

What I wrote isn't hard to follow. "World Police" is the role our foreign policy has taken, and not strictly "our" interests. This spawned growth has created the disparity between federal arms and civilian.

"Police Street; It's the worst street in town, it's so bad . . . . "
dpnewell Offline
#24 Posted:
Joined: 03-16-2009
Posts: 7,491
drnos,
I understand your points and concerns. If armed US citizens attempted to take on our military in a stand up fight, it would be a slaughter. That's IF, it where a stand up fight (which I doubt), and IF US military units would actually fire on US citizens, instead of revolting against their commanders, and joining with their countrymen, as has happened in other places many times in history. May we never find ourselves in such a situation.

Folks seem to forget that not too long ago, a bunch of untrained, 3rd world sheep herders, using antiquated and improvised weapons, brought the Soviet Military, arguably the most powerful military in the world at the time, to their knees. These same sheep herders caused enough pain to our own high tech military, that our people cried out "enough, bring our boys home!" Also don't forget what a bunch of rice farmers did to us and our advanced weapons in Vietnam. Never underestimate the resolve of folks fighting for their home and way of life, no matter how outgunned they seem to be.
jetblasted Offline
#25 Posted:
Joined: 08-30-2004
Posts: 42,595
MACS wrote:
I'd like to believe that if the gov't ever tried to use the military against its own people, they wouldn't comply.


I'd like to think so, too .... But, what's up with all the military drills taking place all over the country? In just the last few months military drills have taken place in Chicago, St. Louis, Houston, Los Angeles, Atlanta, Miami, Boston, Norfolk & at this point, probably a few more cities, too. These drills and exercises have been going on for the last year. They are gearing up for something.

Think
DadZilla3 Offline
#26 Posted:
Joined: 01-17-2009
Posts: 4,633
MACS wrote:
I'd like to believe that if the gov't ever tried to use the military against its own people, they wouldn't comply.

Our government has already taken that possibility into consideration and has entered into a pact with Canada that provides for mutual military assistance in the event of a civil emergency.

http://www.northcom.mil/News/2008/021408.html

"The plan recognizes the role of each nation's lead federal agency for emergency preparedness, which in the United States is the Department of Homeland Security and in Canada is Public Safety Canada. The plan facilitates the military-to-military support of civil authorities once government authorities have agreed on an appropriate response.

U.S. Northern Command was established on Oct. 1, 2002, to anticipate and conduct homeland defense and civil support operations within the assigned area of responsibility to defend, protect, and secure the United States and its interests.

Similarly, Canada Command was established on Feb. 1, 2006, to focus on domestic operations and to offer a single point of contact for all domestic and continental defense and security partners."


HockeyDad Offline
#27 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,164
jetblasted wrote:
I'd like to think so, too .... But, what's up with all the military drills taking place all over the country? In just the last few months military drills have taken place in Chicago, St. Louis, Houston, Los Angeles, Atlanta, Miami, Boston, Norfolk & at this point, probably a few more cities, too. These drills and exercises have been going on for the last year. They are gearing up for something.

Think



Austerity riots.
Brewha Offline
#28 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,201
dpnewell wrote:


Folks seem to forget that not too long ago, a bunch of untrained, 3rd world sheep herders, using antiquated and improvised weapons, brought the Soviet Military, arguably the most powerful military in the world at the time, to their knees. These same sheep herders caused enough pain to our own high tech military, that our people cried out "enough, bring our boys home!" Also don't forget what a bunch of rice farmers did to us and our advanced weapons in Vietnam. Never underestimate the resolve of folks fighting for their home and way of life, no matter how outgunned they seem to be.


Sounds like it would make a great movie. Say, could one of the sheep herders have a robot friend?
pdxstogieman Offline
#29 Posted:
Joined: 10-04-2007
Posts: 5,219
Lots of hypothetical hogwash floating through this thread about "The People" rising up against the gubmint. As if someone would expect that those with the most extreme views that would likely "take up arms" first against the gubmint, would at that time represent the views and interests of all, a majority, or even a substantial minority of "The People". It would certainly take a lot more actual, not hallucinatory, tyranny from the gubmint to spark a substantial majority of "The People" to armed revolt. So all the theoretical hogwash about armed insurrection or threat of same being an effective means to keep the gubmint in line in this day and age is pretty much the delusional excreta of an extreme minority that are just pissed their political party or point of view isn't supported by the established political process.

The tree of hogwash must periodically be nurtured with the manure of message boards.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#30 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,513
victor809 wrote:
... I don't think anyone considers them overly burdened with a sense of military strategy...



You don't have to use strategery when you're a good shot!

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Flying-Camera-From-Animal-Rights-Group-Shot-Down-at-Pigeon-Shoot-Cops-179983451.html

Hell, even Alex Jones can shoot one down!

http://www.infowars.com/drones-shot-down-over-texas/

The fact that YOU can't use an assault weapon with limp wrists is YOUR problem!

Them good ol boys just might be right and it's the rubby players that have it wrong, but I digress.


How many puns can you find in that?

Yeah...Z...see what I did?
DrMaddVibe Offline
#31 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,513
Even the Kenyan King has more balls than Georgetown rubby players!

http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/wh-releases-photo-obama-shooting-gun_699234.html


BANG BANG SHOOOO-OOOOT!

Happiness...is a warm yes it is....GUN!
Gene363 Offline
#32 Posted:
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,842
pdxstogieman wrote:
Lots of hypothetical hogwash floating through this thread about "The People" rising up against the gubmint. As if someone would expect that those with the most extreme views that would likely "take up arms" first against the gubmint, would at that time represent the views and interests of all, a majority, or even a substantial minority of "The People". It would certainly take a lot more actual, not hallucinatory, tyranny from the gubmint to spark a substantial majority of "The People" to armed revolt. So all the theoretical hogwash about armed insurrection or threat of same being an effective means to keep the gubmint in line in this day and age is pretty much the delusional excreta of an extreme minority that are just pissed their political party or point of view isn't supported by the established political process.

The tree of hogwash must periodically be nurtured with the manure of message boards.


Hey, were you the one advising Hosni Mubarak?
Gene363 Offline
#33 Posted:
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,842
Consider the Third Amendment to put the Second in perspective:

Gun Control for dummies.

http://youtu.be/F584p5kJL-U

pdxstogieman Offline
#34 Posted:
Joined: 10-04-2007
Posts: 5,219
Gene363 wrote:

Hey, were you the one advising Hosni Mubarak?


If you're likening the the current situation in the US to that of Egypt just prior to the overthrow of Mubarak, you're one of the delusional extremists.
jetblasted Offline
#35 Posted:
Joined: 08-30-2004
Posts: 42,595
Gene363 wrote:
Consider the Third Amendment to put the Second in perspective:

Gun Control for dummies.

http://youtu.be/F584p5kJL-U




Kind of like what happened in the Civil War ?

fog
HockeyDad Offline
#36 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,164
pdxstogieman wrote:
Lots of hypothetical hogwash floating through this thread about "The People" rising up against the gubmint. As if someone would expect that those with the most extreme views that would likely "take up arms" first against the gubmint, would at that time represent the views and interests of all, a majority, or even a substantial minority of "The People". It would certainly take a lot more actual, not hallucinatory, tyranny from the gubmint to spark a substantial majority of "The People" to armed revolt. So all the theoretical hogwash about armed insurrection or threat of same being an effective means to keep the gubmint in line in this day and age is pretty much the delusional excreta of an extreme minority that are just pissed their political party or point of view isn't supported by the established political process.

The tree of hogwash must periodically be nurtured with the manure of message boards.




On behalf of the Federal government, your surrender of all rights is accepted. See, you were correct....they weren't God-given!
Brewha Offline
#37 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,201
HockeyDad wrote:
On behalf of the Federal government, your surrender of all rights is accepted. See, you were correct....they weren't God-given!

Another Frenchmen speaking of surrender . . . . .


At least it not 'the cone of surrender,' . . . . .
HockeyDad Offline
#38 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,164
Brewha wrote:
Another Frenchmen speaking of surrender . . . . .


At least it not 'the cone of surrender,' . . . . .


We French can speak of surrender because it is the USA that has gone soft. You voluntarily surrender your rights in exchange for feeling safe.

The history books will write of "vietnamization" in Iraq and Afghanistan due to lack of fortitude at home. Meanwhile France jumped into civil wars in Libya and Mali and cleaned those messes up.

Cut social security by 1 euro in France and there are nationwide strikes and protests. Do the same in the USA and "The Bachelor" will still be a bigger topic.

The cheese eating surrender monkeys now eat American gubment cheese.
ZRX1200 Offline
#39 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,628
^ this.
Gene363 Offline
#40 Posted:
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,842
pdxstogieman wrote:
If you're likening the the current situation in the US to that of Egypt just prior to the overthrow of Mubarak, you're one of the delusional extremists.


Oh, my bad, perhaps it was Gaddafi.
Gene363 Offline
#41 Posted:
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,842
HockeyDad wrote:
We French can speak of surrender because it is the USA that has gone soft. You voluntarily surrender your rights in exchange for feeling safe.

The history books will write of "vietnamization" in Iraq and Afghanistan due to lack of fortitude at home. Meanwhile France jumped into civil wars in Libya and Mali and cleaned those messes up.

Cut social security by 1 euro in France and there are nationwide strikes and protests. Do the same in the USA and "The Bachelor" will still be a bigger topic.

The cheese eating surrender monkeys now eat American gubment cheese.


HD is on FIRE! I'd be LMAO if I wasn't so dam sad.
Gene363 Offline
#42 Posted:
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,842
jetblasted wrote:
Kind of like what happened in the Civil War ?

fog


Yes, and in our current history, the 1946 Battle of Athens in Tennessee. An armed revolt on American soil by WWII veterans. This is a bit of US History which many Americans have no knowledge.

On YouTube: http://youtu.be/U5ut6yPrObw

http://voxvocispublicus.homestead.com/Battle-of-Athens.html
8trackdisco Offline
#43 Posted:
Joined: 11-06-2004
Posts: 60,095
The Constitution is disposable. It's been "improved" so many times, it will eventually just be thrown out.

So don't worry about it and trust the federal government. They'll make a new and improved one.
Gene363 Offline
#44 Posted:
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,842
8trackdisco wrote:
The Constitution is disposable. It's been "improved" so many times, it will eventually just be thrown out.

So don't worry about it and trust the federal government. They'll make a new and improved one.


Or just defer to the UN one world.
8trackdisco Offline
#45 Posted:
Joined: 11-06-2004
Posts: 60,095
Gene363 wrote:

Or just defer to the UN one world.


First they control the words, then they control the meanings.

If everyone in the world had to vote a thumbs up or down on our federal government, I wonder if the Pr0-Feds would be able to garner 5%.

Gene363 Offline
#46 Posted:
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,842
8trackdisco wrote:
First they control the words, then they control the meanings.

If everyone in the world had to vote a thumbs up or down on our federal government, I wonder if the Pr0-Feds would be able to garner 5%.



If that. We should get out of the UN and evict them from the US.
.
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#47 Posted:
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
MACS

Students Begin a Protest
Protests by students at Kent State University in Kent, Ohio began on May 1, 1970. At
noon, students held a protest rally on campus and later that night rioters built a
bonfire and threw beer bottles at police off campus. The mayor declared a state of
emergency and asked the governor for help. The governor sent in the Ohio National
Guard.
On May 2, 1970, during a protest near the ROTC building on campus, someone set fire
to the abandoned building. The National Guard entered the campus and used tear gas
to control the crowd.

During the evening of May 3, 1970, another protest rally was held on campus which
was again dispersed by the National Guard.

All of these protests led up to the deadly interaction between
Kent State students and the National Guard on May 4, 1970 which
is known as the Kent State Shootings or the Kent State Massacre.


The Kent State Shootings
On May 4, 1970, another student rally was scheduled for noon at the
Commons on the Kent State University campus. Before the rally began,
the National Guard ordered those congregated to disperse. Since the students
refused to leave, the National Guard attempted to use tear gas on the crowd.
Because of the shifting wind, the tear gas was ineffective at moving the crowd
of students. The National Guard then advanced upon the crowd, with bayonets
attached to their rifles. This scattered the crowd. After dispersing the crowd, the
National Guardsmen stood around for about ten minutes and then turned around
and began to retrace their steps.

For an unknown reason, during their retreat, nearly a dozen National Guardsmen
suddenly turned around and began firing at the still scattered students.
In 13 seconds, 67 bullets were fired. Some claim that there was a verbal order
to fire. Four students were killed and nine others were wounded. Some of the
students who were shot were not even part of the rally, but were just walking
to their next class.

The Kent State massacre angered many and incited additional protests at schools
across the country.

The four students who were killed were Allison Krause, Jeffrey Miller, Sandra Scheuer,
and William Schroeder. The nine wounded students were Alan Canfora, John Cleary,
Thomas Grace, Dean Kahler, Joseph Lewis, Donald MacKenzie, James Russell, Robert
Stamps, and Douglas Wrentmore.
DadZilla3 Offline
#48 Posted:
Joined: 01-17-2009
Posts: 4,633
pdxstogieman wrote:
Lots of hypothetical hogwash floating through this thread about "The People" rising up against the gubmint. As if someone would expect that those with the most extreme views that would likely "take up arms" first against the gubmint, would at that time represent the views and interests of all, a majority, or even a substantial minority of "The People". It would certainly take a lot more actual, not hallucinatory, tyranny from the gubmint to spark a substantial majority of "The People" to armed revolt. So all the theoretical hogwash about armed insurrection or threat of same being an effective means to keep the gubmint in line in this day and age is pretty much the delusional excreta of an extreme minority that are just pissed their political party or point of view isn't supported by the established political process.

The tree of hogwash must periodically be nurtured with the manure of message boards.


As a matter of fact, it just was.
dpnewell Offline
#49 Posted:
Joined: 03-16-2009
Posts: 7,491
pdxstogieman wrote:
Lots of hypothetical hogwash floating through this thread about "The People" rising up against the gubmint. As if someone would expect that those with the most extreme views that would likely "take up arms" first against the gubmint, would at that time represent the views and interests of all, a majority, or even a substantial minority of "The People". It would certainly take a lot more actual, not hallucinatory, tyranny from the gubmint to spark a substantial majority of "The People" to armed revolt. So all the theoretical hogwash about armed insurrection or threat of same being an effective means to keep the gubmint in line in this day and age is pretty much the delusional excreta of an extreme minority that are just pissed their political party or point of view isn't supported by the established political process.

The tree of hogwash must periodically be nurtured with the manure of message boards.



Not student of history, are we? During the American Revolution, less then 1/3 of the colonists supported the revolution. 1/3 where loyal to the Crown. The majority of the people where neaturel. Yet a small minority of citizen farmers and other everyday folk rose up against the most powerful military at the time and won our independence.

I'm not saying that this could happen today, as most Americans are too fat and lazy to actually fight for freedom. Others have been brainwashed, and lash out in anger at the mere hint that they fell for the lies of the liar and his mass media propaganda machine.

Oh, and where are folks in this thread calling for armed insurrection? People are discussing “what ifs”, but who is calling for taking up arms? Looks more like you're having a hissy fit over an assumption. Does your little message board tantrum make you feel better about yourself? Talk about the manure of message boards.
Brewha Offline
#50 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,201
HockeyDad wrote:
We French can speak of surrender because it is the USA that has gone soft. You voluntarily surrender your rights in exchange for feeling safe.

The history books will write of "vietnamization" in Iraq and Afghanistan due to lack of fortitude at home. Meanwhile France jumped into civil wars in Libya and Mali and cleaned those messes up.

Cut social security by 1 euro in France and there are nationwide strikes and protests. Do the same in the USA and "The Bachelor" will still be a bigger topic.

The cheese eating surrender monkeys now eat American gubment cheese.

True that America has too many sheeple . . . .

But the French calling the Americans soft?

Where are my freedoms fries?
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