America's #1 Online Cigar Auction
first, best, biggest!

Last post 9 years ago by DrMaddVibe. 122 replies replies.
3 Pages123>
Is there a reasonable solution to the minimum wage/welfare issue?
Jump to Bottom | Previous Topic | Next Topic
gryphonms Offline
#1 Posted: Wed, Jun 4 2014, 3:58 PM EST
Joined: 04-14-2013
Posts: 1,983
This has me in a quandary. On 1 side I feel income should be based on supply and demand. Yet I also feel that taxpayer money should not help subsidize wages for a companies employees through welfare.
DrafterX Offline
#2 Posted: Wed, Jun 4 2014, 4:00 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,564
it's very simple... minimum was never intended to support anyone.. people are suppose to advance themselves not flip burgers for the rest of their lives.. Mellow
tailgater Offline
#3 Posted: Wed, Jun 4 2014, 5:12 PM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
gryphonms wrote:
This has me in a quandary. On 1 side I feel income should be based on supply and demand. Yet I also feel that taxpayer money should not help subsidize wages for a companies employees through welfare.




Supply and demand is so 20th century.
Buckwheat Offline
#4 Posted: Wed, Jun 4 2014, 5:25 PM EST
Joined: 04-15-2004
Posts: 12,251
Yes. Educate the masses.
Gene363 Offline
#5 Posted: Wed, Jun 4 2014, 6:00 PM EST
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,844

Eliminate the minimum wage law

Stop the flood of low income workers coming across our southern border.

Education is great, but we need to promote job training for technicians, mechanics, repairmen etc. Not everyone needs to go to college and even fewer should go into debt to get a degree.

Education should make it clear flipping burgers is a dead end job, you cannot live or have a family at a minimum wage job.
victor809 Offline
#6 Posted: Wed, Jun 4 2014, 7:03 PM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
Well, seattle passed a $15/hr minimum wage law, phasing the increases in over 3-7 years. That should be interesting. That means even the lowest grade of work in our country, performed by individuals with no skill, no drive, and probably doing it incorrectly... will pay 30k a year at full time.

When I went to grad school, I spent years earning 20k as a lab rat... and in academia the first jobs one can expect after getting a PhD only earn 40-45k. That's after 8-10 years post highschool.

Lets do some math.
Drop out of high school at 16, get a job at McDs earning 30k/year. By age 30 your lifetime earnings are $420k.
Finish High School (earnings 0$ for 2 years), go to college (earnings -$25k for 4 years), go to graduate school (earnings +20k for 6 years) Post Doc 2 years (+45k for 2 years). By age 30 your lifetime earnings are $130k.

At age 30, a PhD has close to a $100k deficit they need to make up on the absolute lowest rung of the workforce. And that's not even taking into account the costs of carrying the college debt.
victor809 Offline
#7 Posted: Wed, Jun 4 2014, 7:04 PM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
I just don't get how people can't see that this would have a negative impact on kid's educational aspirations. Especially considering they're making the decision at ages 16-18....
Buckwheat Offline
#8 Posted: Wed, Jun 4 2014, 7:12 PM EST
Joined: 04-15-2004
Posts: 12,251
Gene363 wrote:

Education is great, but we need to promote job training for technicians, mechanics, repairmen etc. Not everyone needs to go to college and even fewer should go into debt to get a degree.

Education should make it clear flipping burgers is a dead end job, you cannot live or have a family at a minimum wage job.


+1 Herfing
stogiemonger Offline
#9 Posted: Wed, Jun 4 2014, 7:14 PM EST
Joined: 06-25-2009
Posts: 4,185
This issue will likely be debated forever, due to ignorance of simple economic principles. I see no end in sight.
victor809 Offline
#10 Posted: Wed, Jun 4 2014, 7:16 PM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
stogiemonger wrote:
This issue will likely be debated forever, due to ignorance of simple economic principles. I see no end in sight.


I suppose an education would have helped people understand economic principles.
wheelrite Offline
#11 Posted: Wed, Jun 4 2014, 7:24 PM EST
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
victor809 wrote:
I am a catcher ,,,



oh my wheel,,
victor809 Offline
#12 Posted: Wed, Jun 4 2014, 7:29 PM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
wheelrite wrote:
I can't add anything valuable to an adult discussion so I try to bring the level down to gay jokes,,



oh my.
kombat96 Offline
#13 Posted: Wed, Jun 4 2014, 7:37 PM EST
Joined: 04-12-2010
Posts: 9,717
DrafterX wrote:
it's very simple... minimum was never intended to support anyone.. people are suppose to advance themselves not flip burgers for the rest of their lives.. Mellow



True to a point. But now days those are the only jobs..ie service industry and those are historically low wage jobs. I've got a degree and followed the law and I'm a decent person but I've found myself in a service job.

Education is hit or miss cause all these colleges are pumping ppl out the jobs are lowering wages.
My fiance was laid off from a very nice paralegal job. Now she's fighting to get a job, and she's got two choices. 1 take a job that starts out at a lot less or two dumb down her resume and look like she has minimal experience to look just like those being pumped out of college. Either way she's making nearly half of what she once was.

Don't think education is the total answer.

Be proud of those who come to work daily at those minimum wage jobs just to make a living.

There are good ppl out there trying.
Abrignac Offline
#14 Posted: Wed, Jun 4 2014, 7:50 PM EST
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,329
kombat96 wrote:
True to a point. But now days those are the only jobs..ie service industry and those are historically low wage jobs. I've got a degree and followed the law and I'm a decent person but I've found myself in a service job.

Education is hit or miss cause all these colleges are pumping ppl out the jobs are lowering wages.
My fiance was laid off from a very nice paralegal job. Now she's fighting to get a job, and she's got two choices. 1 take a job that starts out at a lot less or two dumb down her resume and look like she has minimal experience to look just like those being pumped out of college. Either way she's making nearly half of what she once was.

Don't think education is the total answer.

Be proud of those who come to work daily at those minimum wage jobs just to make a living.

There are good ppl out there trying.


Sadly, you may want to consider relocating. If the economy is stagnant where you're at you really seem to have only two choices.
marc palanzo Offline
#15 Posted: Wed, Jun 4 2014, 8:01 PM EST
Joined: 02-06-2006
Posts: 2,786
The problem isn't people working for minimun wage. In fact, they deserve the help in many cases.

They real problem are the ones who receive public assistance but aren't held accountable to make a contribution to society.
Abrignac Offline
#16 Posted: Wed, Jun 4 2014, 8:02 PM EST
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,329
Just did some quick internet research. According to some it seems Detroit's unemployment has dropped from 16% to 9% give or take a few factions of a point. You may want to consider retraining in a different carer path.
Mr Roso Offline
#17 Posted: Wed, Jun 4 2014, 8:10 PM EST
Joined: 09-05-2013
Posts: 384
There's not a simple answer. You have to fix the system, not just try to patch it up by raising the minimum wage.
kombat96 Offline
#18 Posted: Wed, Jun 4 2014, 8:59 PM EST
Joined: 04-12-2010
Posts: 9,717
Abrignac wrote:
Just did some quick internet research. According to some it seems Detroit's unemployment has dropped from 16% to 9% give or take a few factions of a point. You may want to consider retraining in a different carer path.

Don't trust #'s or reports. They can be manipulated either way.

Leaving is very difficult . Some areas are tired of ppl coming from other areas to take local jobs. And now I'm in a place with no family or friends to lean on.


Like someone said. The main issue is ppl living on welfare and never working or hasn't had a job in 10-12 years. Then they find **** doctors who fudge medical illnesses so they can get a disability claim.

I'd rather be where I'm at and fight paycheck to paycheck and keep my head held high then to give up and let others pay for my existence .
sd72 Offline
#19 Posted: Wed, Jun 4 2014, 9:23 PM EST
Joined: 03-09-2011
Posts: 9,600
The nations decrease in unemployment is from people's claims running out. If you're not on unemployment, how would the gov know you're not working? People who receive assistance are not considered unemployed. National unemployment has been as low as 3% while welfare, ssd, ect ect has stayed above 10%.

Sometimes the numbers do lie.
wheelrite Offline
#20 Posted: Wed, Jun 4 2014, 9:34 PM EST
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
victor809 wrote:
wheel is hot.



stop it !! Allison...


wheel,,
SammyETN Offline
#21 Posted: Wed, Jun 4 2014, 9:34 PM EST
Joined: 05-15-2009
Posts: 389
kombat96 wrote:
.... Then they find **** doctors who fudge medical illnesses so they can get a disability claim.

I'd rather be where I'm at and fight paycheck to paycheck and keep my head held high then to give up and let others pay for my existence .


So everyone on disability is a liar and/or a leech that should be ashamed at their very existence?
sd72 Offline
#22 Posted: Wed, Jun 4 2014, 9:38 PM EST
Joined: 03-09-2011
Posts: 9,600
Most of em.

wheelrite Offline
#23 Posted: Wed, Jun 4 2014, 9:40 PM EST
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
a great case for Eugenics,,,

no ?


wheel,
SammyETN Offline
#24 Posted: Wed, Jun 4 2014, 9:42 PM EST
Joined: 05-15-2009
Posts: 389
sd72 wrote:
Most of em.



Okay, I will begin to be properly ashamed tomorrow.
sd72 Offline
#25 Posted: Wed, Jun 4 2014, 9:50 PM EST
Joined: 03-09-2011
Posts: 9,600
Bro if your messed up, I feel for you. There's generations of families who's only income has ever been welfare. They take their kids down and sign them up on their birthday, they have kids to get "raises".
There's a reason the attorney general is investigating disability legal firms who have 95%+ success rates, and the doctors and judges they've bought.
Don't take it personal, the system is jacked.
sd72 Offline
#26 Posted: Wed, Jun 4 2014, 9:59 PM EST
Joined: 03-09-2011
Posts: 9,600
Another interesting note. As the economy increases, claims go down. When things get bad claims go up, if disability were on the up an up wouldn't that (shouldn't that) be the opposite? How are people getting hurt sitting at home, and doing fine when they're at work?
Gene363 Offline
#27 Posted: Wed, Jun 4 2014, 10:59 PM EST
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,844
victor809 wrote:
Well, seattle passed a $15/hr minimum wage law, phasing the increases in over 3-7 years. That should be interesting. That means even the lowest grade of work in our country, performed by individuals with no skill, no drive, and probably doing it incorrectly... will pay 30k a year at full time.

When I went to grad school, I spent years earning 20k as a lab rat... and in academia the first jobs one can expect after getting a PhD only earn 40-45k. That's after 8-10 years post highschool.

Lets do some math.
Drop out of high school at 16, get a job at McDs earning 30k/year. By age 30 your lifetime earnings are $420k.
Finish High School (earnings 0$ for 2 years), go to college (earnings -$25k for 4 years), go to graduate school (earnings +20k for 6 years) Post Doc 2 years (+45k for 2 years). By age 30 your lifetime earnings are $130k.

At age 30, a PhD has close to a $100k deficit they need to make up on the absolute lowest rung of the workforce. And that's not even taking into account the costs of carrying the college debt.


Don't forget that PHD holder is also likely to be a debt slave suffering under the weight of student loans. You should get to retirement in much better shape than the wastrels. Well as long as the wastrels don't vote to impose more 'equality' and rob you of any rewards for your hard work.

I still remember my Mother, an experienced teacher, reacting to me earning more than some teachers my first year as a Dam Operator.

In your example all the incentive is on the drop out, it doesn't say much for our values for PHDs or teachers.
tailgater Offline
#28 Posted: Wed, Jun 4 2014, 11:00 PM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
SammyETN wrote:
So everyone on disability is a liar and/or a leech that should be ashamed at their very existence?


So you're saying that everyone on disability legit?
tailgater Offline
#29 Posted: Wed, Jun 4 2014, 11:14 PM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
SammyETN wrote:
Okay, I will begin to be properly ashamed tomorrow.


That's our Sammy. Always procrastinating.
kombat96 Offline
#30 Posted: Thu, Jun 5 2014, 12:01 AM EST
Joined: 04-12-2010
Posts: 9,717
sd72 wrote:
Another interesting note. As the economy increases, claims go down. When things get bad claims go up, if disability were on the up an up wouldn't that (shouldn't that) be the opposite? How are people getting hurt sitting at home, and doing fine when they're at work?



Well said.
victor809 Offline
#31 Posted: Thu, Jun 5 2014, 2:38 AM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
Gene363 wrote:


Don't forget that PHD holder is also likely to be a debt slave suffering under the weight of student loans. You should get to retirement in much better shape than the wastrels. Well as long as the wastrels don't vote to impose more 'equality' and rob you of any rewards for your hard work.

I still remember my Mother, an experienced teacher, reacting to me earning more than some teachers my first year as a Dam Operator.

In your example all the incentive is on the drop out, it doesn't say much for our values for PHDs or teachers.


I didn't even want to get into teachers... but in Seattle, teaching is going to net you about 45k annually. That's after spending money on getting your undergraduate degree, and depending on the location, masters degree. If minimum wage is set to 30k, the difference between the lowest tier of the workforce and our teachers is essentially a Kia.
danmdevries Offline
#32 Posted: Thu, Jun 5 2014, 5:19 AM EST
Joined: 02-11-2014
Posts: 17,451
victor809 wrote:
I just don't get how people can't see that this would have a negative impact on kid's educational aspirations. Especially considering they're making the decision at ages 16-18....


At 17 I had a job paying 35k/yr with benefits. Guess who dropped out of high school. (Hint-me)
SammyETN Offline
#33 Posted: Thu, Jun 5 2014, 5:47 AM EST
Joined: 05-15-2009
Posts: 389
sd72 wrote:
Another interesting note. As the economy increases, claims go down. When things get bad claims go up, if disability were on the up an up wouldn't that (shouldn't that) be the opposite? How are people getting hurt sitting at home, and doing fine when they're at work?


I didn't say that everything was on the up and up. If there is a way to cheat and get something for nothing, there is someone that will do it. At the same time, however, if your disability is legitimate there is no reason to be ashamed of that fact.

At the same time, in regards to Kombat's post (#18), the idea that one has to "give up and let others pay for my (their) existence" is ludicrous. Dealing with debilitating health issues for forty years is not called giving up, it is called surviving.
SammyETN Offline
#34 Posted: Thu, Jun 5 2014, 5:49 AM EST
Joined: 05-15-2009
Posts: 389
tailgater wrote:
That's our Sammy. Always procrastinating.



Never start today, what you call put off until tomorrow!
SammyETN Offline
#35 Posted: Thu, Jun 5 2014, 5:51 AM EST
Joined: 05-15-2009
Posts: 389
I just realized I say "at the same time" way to much.
kombat96 Offline
#36 Posted: Thu, Jun 5 2014, 6:01 AM EST
Joined: 04-12-2010
Posts: 9,717
SammyETN wrote:
I didn't say that everything was on the up and up. If there is a way to cheat and get something for nothing, there is someone that will do it. At the same time, however, if your disability is legitimate there is no reason to be ashamed of that fact.

At the same time, in regards to Kombat's post (#18), the idea that one has to "give up and let others pay for my (their) existence" is ludicrous. Dealing with debilitating health issues for forty years is not called giving up, it is called surviving.



You have debilitating health issues and need help, im ok and supportive. My comment was towards those who've, decided to ride the system. Inturn it groups most ppl together, and my intentions weren't meant to be hateful.

Truly disabled ppl are getting raw deals cause so many others have found and exploited loop holes.
DrafterX Offline
#37 Posted: Thu, Jun 5 2014, 7:53 AM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,564
victor809 wrote:
I didn't even want to get into teachers... but in Seattle, teaching is going to net you about 45k annually. That's after spending money on getting your undergraduate degree, and depending on the location, masters degree. If minimum wage is set to 30k, the difference between the lowest tier of the workforce and our teachers is essentially a Kia.




that's kind of what I was getting at the other day... If minimum wage goes up everyone across the board should get a raise.. a couple more dollars an hour should mean you're more valuable. now all of a sudden the new guy is gonna make the same as the guy that's got 10 years in unless the employer can afford to bump everyone by a percentage... Mellow
HockeyDad Offline
#38 Posted: Thu, Jun 5 2014, 8:06 AM EST
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,164
We are now in an era where being successful and having accumulated any wealth is something to hide and be embarrassed about. To be fair, the government is solving that.
rfenst Online
#39 Posted: Thu, Jun 5 2014, 8:09 AM EST
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,368
SammyETN wrote:
So everyone on disability is a liar and/or a leech that should be ashamed at their very existence?


Agree with point made, SammyETN.
rfenst Online
#40 Posted: Thu, Jun 5 2014, 8:11 AM EST
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,368
SammyETN wrote:
Okay, I will begin to be properly ashamed tomorrow.


+1
rfenst Online
#41 Posted: Thu, Jun 5 2014, 8:17 AM EST
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,368
SammyETN wrote:
Dealing with debilitating health issues for forty years is not called giving up, it is called surviving.


+1
Most people in the same situation would give anything to become "un-disabled" and return to the workforce and a more normal lifestyle.
DrafterX Offline
#42 Posted: Thu, Jun 5 2014, 8:25 AM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,564
rfenst wrote:
+1
Most people in the same situation would give anything to become "un-disabled" and return to the workforce and a more normal lifestyle.



Most probably would.... but I think the comments were directed more at people like my sister-in-law that chose to sit on her ass the rest of her life instead of having a couple vertebrae fixed in her neck... My wife had the same surgery and was back to work in less than a month.... the SIL decided to play it out and she won in her eyes... Mellow
rfenst Online
#43 Posted: Thu, Jun 5 2014, 8:27 AM EST
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,368
DrafterX wrote:
that's kind of what I was getting at the other day... If minimum wage goes up everyone across the board should get a raise.. a couple more dollars an hour should mean you're more valuable. now all of a sudden the new guy is gonna make the same as the guy that's got 10 years in unless the employer can afford to bump everyone by a percentage... Mellow


It is called wage inflation.
stogiefan Offline
#44 Posted: Thu, Jun 5 2014, 8:35 AM EST
Joined: 10-23-2012
Posts: 80
SammyETN wrote:
So everyone on disability is a liar and/or a leech that should be ashamed at their very existence?


No but to deny that widespread fraud exists would be to deny reality. Think about it. The number of disability claims are at record highs but the labor force is among the lowest its been in years. That doesn't add up. Also the types of jobs widely available today are less physically demanding service jobs as opposed to harder labor jobs that had a larger share of the job market.
rfenst Online
#45 Posted: Thu, Jun 5 2014, 8:36 AM EST
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,368
DrafterX wrote:
Most probably would.... but I think the comments were directed more at people like my sister-in-law that chose to sit on her ass the rest of her life instead of having a couple vertebrae fixed in her neck... My wife had the same surgery and was back to work in less than a month.... the SIL decided to play it out and she won in her eyes... Mellow


So, narc her out, bro!
DrafterX Offline
#46 Posted: Thu, Jun 5 2014, 8:44 AM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,564
Laugh
gryphonms Offline
#47 Posted: Thu, Jun 5 2014, 8:44 AM EST
Joined: 04-14-2013
Posts: 1,983
I think the varied opinions show that this is s real problem. Yes wellfare was never intended to become a wage supplement but the sad reality is that it is. Yes education should improve your financial circumstance but the sad reality is that it may not. Yes if you are willing to work hard and learn you should advance but the sad reality is you may not. I think this problem has multiple dimensions. But 1 in particular stands out to me. We have moved from a manufacturing based economy to a service based economy thereby lowering the average workers wage to a minimum. I feel that any person willing to work hard, work fulltime, and work to improve themselves should be able to live a decent life.

For this conversation I am not including the lazy oxygen wasters. They deserve nothing.
tailgater Offline
#48 Posted: Thu, Jun 5 2014, 9:25 AM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
SammyETN wrote:
I just realized I say "at the same time" way to much.


I thought you were multi-tasking.
Brewha Offline
#49 Posted: Mon, Jun 9 2014, 8:32 PM EST
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,201
What would be reasonable is to have people educate themselves to the point that they understand we need a minimum wage to protect people from sweatshops and corporate interests from driving wages unfairly low.
jetblasted Offline
#50 Posted: Mon, Jun 9 2014, 9:07 PM EST
Joined: 08-30-2004
Posts: 42,595
Why is there even welfare to begin with ?
Users browsing this topic
Guest
3 Pages123>
Back to Top