America's #1 Online Cigar Auction
first, best, biggest!

Last post 9 years ago by DrMaddVibe. 122 replies replies.
3 Pages<123>
Is there a reasonable solution to the minimum wage/welfare issue?
Jump to Bottom | Previous Topic | Next Topic
Brewha Offline
#51 Posted: Mon, Jun 9 2014, 9:20 PM EST
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,201
jetblasted wrote:
Why is there even welfare to begin with ?

Really?
Well JB, some day you'll meet a disabled vet, a person with birth defects, someone injured in an industrial accident and screwed by tort reform laws, or maybe just someone who is ill to work.

I understand your confusion though. Thursday's child really does have far to go.
DrafterX Offline
#52 Posted: Mon, Jun 9 2014, 9:57 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,560
poor CROS.... Sad
tailgater Offline
#53 Posted: Mon, Jun 9 2014, 10:30 PM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
Brewha wrote:
What would be reasonable is to have people educate themselves to the point that they understand we need a minimum wage to protect people from sweatshops and corporate interests from driving wages unfairly low.


So you suggest that a myopic and cynical education is reasonable?
HockeyDad Offline
#54 Posted: Tue, Jun 10 2014, 7:34 AM EST
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,163
Brewha wrote:
What would be reasonable is to have people educate themselves to the point that they understand we need a minimum wage to protect people from sweatshops and corporate interests from driving wages unfairly low.



There's no such thing as "unfairly low". That is just a touchy-feely concept. Can we drive the wages fairly low and that would pass your sniff test.
tailgater Offline
#55 Posted: Tue, Jun 10 2014, 9:13 AM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
Raising the minimum wage for all employees regardless of their contribution is akin to giving all the kids trophy's in little league and soccer.
People have to learn that merely showing up is not good enough.
ZRX1200 Offline
#56 Posted: Tue, Jun 10 2014, 9:25 AM EST
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,628
You pay peanuts, you get monkeys.

Unfortunately you can't scientifically mandate monkeys into model employees, and the work ethic of many people doesn't entice employers to allow OTJ training. And the FEDS have severely restricted intern rules.

I don't like minimum wage being there, and I despise demoncrats using it for a political football because they need a distraction away from the schitty economy.
gryphonms Offline
#57 Posted: Tue, Jun 10 2014, 10:01 AM EST
Joined: 04-14-2013
Posts: 1,983
This is getting off track. The debate of this post is not minimum wage or well fare. It is is there an answer to the following question below. Presently many companies employee wages are subsidised by well fare, the government wants to raise minimum wage which would eliminate this subsidization. Is there a better answer? If there is I do not see it. It is unrealistic to think this situation will be self correcting, we have lost our manufacturing base and have moved to a service based economy. There are many good hard working people stuck in these poor paying service jobs. If you see an answer to this problem great, tell me. If not the question becomes would you rather see minimum wage raised or continue paying well fare to subsidize corporate America?
tailgater Offline
#58 Posted: Tue, Jun 10 2014, 10:23 AM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
gryphonms wrote:
This is getting off track. The debate of this post is not minimum wage or well fare. It is is there an answer to the following question below. Presently many companies employee wages are subsidised by well fare, the government wants to raise minimum wage which would eliminate this subsidization. Is there a better answer? If there is I do not see it. It is unrealistic to think this situation will be self correcting, we have lost our manufacturing base and have moved to a service based economy. There are many good hard working people stuck in these poor paying service jobs. If you see an answer to this problem great, tell me. If not the question becomes would you rather see minimum wage raised or continue paying well fare to subsidize corporate America?


So we only get two choices?
No means to think outside the box and come to a solution, rather than a talking point for our politicians?


No wonder we're in the mess we're in.
tailgater Offline
#59 Posted: Tue, Jun 10 2014, 10:26 AM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
I'd like to somehow mandate responsibility.

With responsibility, a person down on their luck would use min wage and/or welfare as a stop gap rather than a career.
Then the programs could be used for their intended purpose.
DrafterX Offline
#60 Posted: Tue, Jun 10 2014, 10:29 AM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,560
gryphonms wrote:
, the government wants to raise minimum wage which would eliminate this subsidization. ?



Shame on you
The government wants to raise minimum wage so the workers can purchase Obamacare...... Not talking
gryphonms Offline
#61 Posted: Tue, Jun 10 2014, 10:31 AM EST
Joined: 04-14-2013
Posts: 1,983
TG, higher in the post I do ask is there an answer. I also state I do not see it. I ask for answers from anyone else that can see one. I would like a different answer, unfortunately I do not see one.
tailgater Offline
#62 Posted: Tue, Jun 10 2014, 11:27 AM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
gryphonms wrote:
TG, higher in the post I do ask is there an answer. I also state I do not see it. I ask for answers from anyone else that can see one. I would like a different answer, unfortunately I do not see one.


Yes there is.
As soon as we stop catering to the lowest common denominator we can right this ship.
We want to help those who need it. So we build programs like welfare and we mandate a federal minimum on wages.

But people want to abuse this. They know that they can "break even" by milking the system as opposed to putting time and effort into a job.
But unlike when the sweatshops and coal mines abuse the rules, we don't make the proper corrections.
We let our bleeding hearts wish them MORE charity. MORE freedom from being too put out.

Remember when algore promised welfare payments via the EBT card? He said "this way, you can receive your check even if you're on vacation".

And half the country thought that was reason enough to vote for him.
HockeyDad Offline
#63 Posted: Tue, Jun 10 2014, 11:40 AM EST
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,163
I am in favor of raising the minimum wage to $15. You have to understand.....I like watching the fallout from unintended consequences.

Everyone making $9 -$15 an hour today just became minimum wage employees. They will give some of that money right back due to price increases. Everyone already making over $15 an hour will not get a raise and will be hit by the price increases. Many jobs in the $15 - $20 range will not look nearly as good as $15 for bagging groceries. Now those jobs need raises to compensate or face a lack of willing employees.

Significant job loss will occur in the area below $15 an hour today. That will increase welfare needs. If you're making minimum wage today and land one of those $15 an hour jobs, kudos to you. (Brewha)

The gap between middle class and lower class will be reduced at the expense of the middle class. The upper class will be just fine!
Gene363 Offline
#64 Posted: Tue, Jun 10 2014, 11:51 AM EST
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,838
Brewha wrote:
Really?
Well JB, some day you'll meet a disabled vet, a person with birth defects, someone injured in an industrial accident and screwed by tort reform laws, or maybe just someone who is ill to work.

I understand your confusion though. Thursday's child really does have far to go.


IMO, taking care of the sick and infirm is not welfare, it is the responsibility of society. Veterans are another case, they served our country, the very least we can do is try to make them whole again, or as close as is reasonably possible.

The able bodies slackers that live off society shouldn't be getting jack. At best, basic food products like flour, sugar, butter, etc.
victor809 Offline
#65 Posted: Tue, Jun 10 2014, 11:54 AM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
gryphonms wrote:
This is getting off track. The debate of this post is not minimum wage or well fare. It is is there an answer to the following question below. Presently many companies employee wages are subsidised by well fare, the government wants to raise minimum wage which would eliminate this subsidization. Is there a better answer? If there is I do not see it. It is unrealistic to think this situation will be self correcting, we have lost our manufacturing base and have moved to a service based economy. There are many good hard working people stuck in these poor paying service jobs. If you see an answer to this problem great, tell me. If not the question becomes would you rather see minimum wage raised or continue paying well fare to subsidize corporate America?



How can you possibly not see a clear third option?

Get rid of minimum wage and welfare.

People can work for a price they are worth. If that price is below the money it takes to keep them alive, they die in the street.
victor809 Offline
#66 Posted: Tue, Jun 10 2014, 11:55 AM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
HockeyDad wrote:

The gap between middle class and lower class will be reduced at the expense of the middle class. The upper class will be just fine!



I need to get a little higher up the ladder before we pull this little "experiment" off, if you please. I certainly don't want to get caught a rung too low.
tailgater Offline
#67 Posted: Tue, Jun 10 2014, 12:04 PM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
victor809 wrote:
How can you possibly not see a clear third option?

Get rid of minimum wage and welfare.

People can work for a price they are worth. If that price is below the money it takes to keep them alive, they die in the street.


And we can pay the street corpse remover $15/hour.

Job Creation.

Brilliant!
tailgater Offline
#68 Posted: Tue, Jun 10 2014, 12:05 PM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
victor809 wrote:
I certainly don't want to get caught a rung too low.


That happened to me once in college...
victor809 Offline
#69 Posted: Tue, Jun 10 2014, 12:06 PM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
tailgater wrote:
And we can pay the street corpse remover $15/hour.

Job Creation.

Brilliant!


Only if he performs $15 worth of work. Probably should just pay him on a "per corpse" basis, so the more efficient corpse removers would be incentivized.
BuckyB93 Offline
#70 Posted: Tue, Jun 10 2014, 12:07 PM EST
Joined: 07-16-2004
Posts: 14,218
tailgater wrote:
And we can pay the street corpse remover $15/hour.

Job Creation.

Brilliant!


And it's a "shovel ready" project to boot.
gryphonms Offline
#71 Posted: Tue, Jun 10 2014, 12:10 PM EST
Joined: 04-14-2013
Posts: 1,983
Victor, while that is an option the result would be an armed insurrection. Are you be prepared to kill or be killed?
DrafterX Offline
#72 Posted: Tue, Jun 10 2014, 12:10 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,560
burial plots cost money which they don't have..... food for wolves... Mellow
HockeyDad Offline
#73 Posted: Tue, Jun 10 2014, 12:11 PM EST
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,163
victor809 wrote:
Only if he performs $15 worth of work. Probably should just pay him on a "per corpse" basis, so the more efficient corpse removers would be incentivized.



Hire them as a contractor and give them a 1099 at the end of the year.
HockeyDad Offline
#74 Posted: Tue, Jun 10 2014, 12:12 PM EST
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,163
gryphonms wrote:
Victor, while that is an option the result would be an armed insurrection. Are you be prepared to kill or be killed?



We'll just extend "American Idol" to a 52 week season. Insurrection aborted.
HockeyDad Offline
#75 Posted: Tue, Jun 10 2014, 12:14 PM EST
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,163
DrafterX wrote:
burial plots cost money which they don't have..... food for wolves... Mellow



The wealthy could then open wolf hunting clubs like fox hunting in olde England.
gryphonms Offline
#76 Posted: Tue, Jun 10 2014, 12:19 PM EST
Joined: 04-14-2013
Posts: 1,983
HD, LMAO! To say you have a droll sense of humor is an understatement.
victor809 Offline
#77 Posted: Tue, Jun 10 2014, 12:22 PM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
gryphonms wrote:
Victor, while that is an option the result would be an armed insurrection. Are you be prepared to kill or be killed?


dude. Tell a bunch of teapartiers that they're illegal immigrants and trying to take their jobs.... suddenly a bunch of "surprising" mass shootings in WalMart will take care of things.

Hypothetically speaking of course.
Gene363 Offline
#78 Posted: Tue, Jun 10 2014, 12:56 PM EST
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,838
tailgater wrote:
And we can pay the street corpse remover $15/hour.

Job Creation.

Brilliant!


If you want an omelet, you must break some eggs.
DrafterX Offline
#79 Posted: Tue, Jun 10 2014, 12:58 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,560
a waffle would be good to please.... Mellow
DrMaddVibe Offline
#80 Posted: Tue, Jun 10 2014, 1:24 PM EST
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,507
Brewha wrote:
What would be reasonable is to have people educate themselves to the point that they understand we need a minimum wage to protect people from sweatshops and corporate interests from driving wages unfairly low.



Oh look...now he wants to fire the unions!!!
Brewha Offline
#81 Posted: Tue, Jun 10 2014, 2:09 PM EST
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,201
tailgater wrote:
So you suggest that a myopic and cynical education is reasonable?



No – I am not suggesting church school.
Brewha Offline
#82 Posted: Tue, Jun 10 2014, 2:11 PM EST
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,201
HockeyDad wrote:
There's no such thing as "unfairly low". That is just a touchy-feely concept...

You’ve been talking to Victor too much . . .
stogiefan Offline
#83 Posted: Tue, Jun 10 2014, 2:24 PM EST
Joined: 10-23-2012
Posts: 80
gryphonms wrote:
This is getting off track. The debate of this post is not minimum wage or well fare. It is is there an answer to the following question below. Presently many companies employee wages are subsidised by well fare, the government wants to raise minimum wage which would eliminate this subsidization. Is there a better answer? If there is I do not see it. It is unrealistic to think this situation will be self correcting, we have lost our manufacturing base and have moved to a service based economy. There are many good hard working people stuck in these poor paying service jobs. If you see an answer to this problem great, tell me. If not the question becomes would you rather see minimum wage raised or continue paying well fare to subsidize corporate America?


There will always be need for subsidizing welfare for minimum wage even if the minimum wage goes up to $15-$20/hr. For one many EE's simply aren't employable at that high of a wage. An employer would literally lose money paying certain low skill workers that much money. They will be out of a job and on welfare. Also when you raise the cost of labor with the stroke of a pen you also offset the supply and demand aspect of labor. Perhaps to afford the new wages employers will begin raising the price of their products/services which in turn offsets the effect of the minimum wage increase. Therefore that worker is no better off prior to the increase and will still need gov't assistance.
tailgater Offline
#84 Posted: Tue, Jun 10 2014, 2:28 PM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
Brewha wrote:
No – I am not suggesting church school.


Touche.
Brewha Offline
#85 Posted: Tue, Jun 10 2014, 2:28 PM EST
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,201
Gene363 wrote:

IMO, taking care of the sick and infirm is not welfare, it is the responsibility of society. Veterans are another case, they served our country, the very least we can do is try to make them whole again, or as close as is reasonably possible.

The able bodies slackers that live off society shouldn't be getting jack. At best, basic food products like flour, sugar, butter, etc.

Why does the conservative lexicon define welfare as money given to people who never deserved it? I mean I understand that a lot of people rip off the system – not to the extent of white collar crime - but still it’s a lot of money. However to look at someone truly in need and deserving of aid, and say “that’s not welfare” is just mudding the waters . . .
tailgater Offline
#86 Posted: Tue, Jun 10 2014, 2:28 PM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
Brewha wrote:
You’ve been talking to Victor too much . . .


Some say even a little is too much.
tailgater Offline
#87 Posted: Tue, Jun 10 2014, 2:43 PM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
Brewha wrote:
Why does the conservative lexicon define welfare as money given to people who never deserved it? I mean I understand that a lot of people rip off the system – not to the extent of white collar crime - but still it’s a lot of money. However to look at someone truly in need and deserving of aid, and say “that’s not welfare” is just mudding the waters . . .


"not to the extent of white collar crime"???

Please explain.

White collar crime usually rips off the corporation, not the tax paying public.
DrafterX Offline
#88 Posted: Tue, Jun 10 2014, 2:45 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,560
Is white collar crime like getting 9 Obama-phones at a time..?? Huh
HockeyDad Offline
#89 Posted: Tue, Jun 10 2014, 2:46 PM EST
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,163
Brewha wrote:
Why does the conservative lexicon define welfare as money given to people who never deserved it? I mean I understand that a lot of people rip off the system –



You answered your own question. Now get a job.
Brewha Offline
#90 Posted: Tue, Jun 10 2014, 3:08 PM EST
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,201
tailgater wrote:
"not to the extent of white collar crime"???

Please explain.

White collar crime usually rips off the corporation, not the tax paying public.


Just pointing to the amounts involved. From Enron to Madoff there is some real coin diapering from the pockets of working folk. And don’t even get me started on Goldmen Sachs . . . .
Brewha Offline
#91 Posted: Tue, Jun 10 2014, 3:13 PM EST
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,201
HockeyDad wrote:
You answered your own question. Now get a job.

HD, I already have a job – and I work like a dog (no offence Drafter).
MACS Offline
#92 Posted: Tue, Jun 10 2014, 3:17 PM EST
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,824
Buckwheat wrote:
Yes. Educate the masses.


They'll burn the white house down!! Don't you listen to Queensryche?

They've given me a mission
I don't really know the game yet
I'm bent on submission
Religion is to blame
I'm the new messiah
Death Angel with a gun
Dangerous in my silence
Deadly to my cause

Speak to me the pain you feel
Speak the word
The word is all of us

I've given my life to become what I am
To preach the new beginning
To make you understand
To reach some point of order
Utopia in mind, you've got to learn
To sacrifice, to leave what's now behind

Speak to me the pain you feel
Speak the word
The word is all of us
Speak the word
The word is all of us

Seven years of power
The corporation claw
The rich control the government, the media the law
To make some kind of difference
Then everyone must know
Eradicate the fascists, revolution will grow

The system we learn says we're equal under law
But the streets are reality, the weak and poor will fall
Let's tip the power balance and tear down their crown
Educate the masses, We'll burn the White House down

Speak to me the pain you feel
Speak to me the pain you feel
Speak the word (Revolution)
The word is all of us
Speak the word (Revolution)
The word is all of us
Speak the word
The word is all of us
Speak the Word
The word is all of us

SPEAK!!
victor809 Offline
#93 Posted: Tue, Jun 10 2014, 3:20 PM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
Brewha wrote:
Just pointing to the amounts involved. From Enron to Madoff there is some real coin diapering from the pockets of working folk. And don’t even get me started on Goldmen Sachs . . . .


While I appreciate that white collar... malfeasance, or misbehavior... might be a significant amount of money. It's a bit of a stretch to claim that it's being taken from the pockets of the working folk. I mean... if they had that much money, they wouldn't be working folk.
MACS Offline
#94 Posted: Tue, Jun 10 2014, 3:23 PM EST
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,824
sd72 wrote:
Most of em.



HA! beat me to it!
HockeyDad Offline
#95 Posted: Tue, Jun 10 2014, 3:30 PM EST
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,163
victor809 wrote:
While I appreciate that white collar... malfeasance, or misbehavior... might be a significant amount of money. It's a bit of a stretch to claim that it's being taken from the pockets of the working folk. I mean... if they had that much money, they wouldn't be working folk.



Why would white collar criminals rob from peasants.
DrafterX Offline
#96 Posted: Tue, Jun 10 2014, 3:32 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,560
HockeyDad wrote:
Why would white collar criminals rob from peasants.



Think
uhh.... how do we classify evangelists..??? Think
HockeyDad Offline
#97 Posted: Tue, Jun 10 2014, 3:35 PM EST
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,163
DrafterX wrote:
Think
uhh.... how do we classify evangelists..??? Think



Black collar
DrafterX Offline
#98 Posted: Tue, Jun 10 2014, 3:38 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,560
Think
Brewha Offline
#99 Posted: Tue, Jun 10 2014, 3:38 PM EST
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,201
DrafterX wrote:
Think
uhh.... how do we classify evangelists..??? Think

I think the Catholics got rid of the white collars . . . .
DrafterX Offline
#100 Posted: Tue, Jun 10 2014, 3:43 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,560
Brewha wrote:
I think the Catholics got rid of the white collars . . . .



does Bloody know about this..?? Huh
Users browsing this topic
Guest
3 Pages<123>
Back to Top