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Last post 9 years ago by ZRX1200. 62 replies replies.
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Creationism
victor809 Offline
#1 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
http://reports.ncse.com/index.php/rncse/article/view/304/528

An interesting study, the author essentially searched references for various fossils in creationist websites and found that they really (and not surprisingly) fail to provide complete evidence of the fossil record.

The point being that if someone were to use the information presented in a creationist website to decide whether or not to believe in evolution, the large gaps in information presented might make creationism appear more plausible.

What I find most interesting is buried a bit in the study. The Piltdown Man is referenced in the creationist websites more than any other fossil except Lucy (and in one case more than Lucy). Of course, the piltdown man was a hoax...

jetblasted Offline
#2 Posted:
Joined: 08-30-2004
Posts: 42,595
What does the Bible say . . . (?)

Mellow
erjaq Offline
#3 Posted:
Joined: 11-21-2013
Posts: 1,188
LOL at creationists attempting to do science. Start with the conclusion, then work your way backward.
dharbolt Offline
#4 Posted:
Joined: 08-03-2013
Posts: 6,931
Don't laugh at the exhibits in the creationist museum in Cincinnati. They will throw your azz out. Ask me how I know.


BigGrin
erjaq Offline
#5 Posted:
Joined: 11-21-2013
Posts: 1,188
Haha, did they have the one showing dinosaurs and humans hanging out together?
Buckwheat Offline
#6 Posted:
Joined: 04-15-2004
Posts: 12,251
dharbolt wrote:
Don't laugh at the exhibits in the creationist museum in Cincinnati. They will throw your azz out. Ask me how I know.


BigGrin


Ask them how much good could've been accomplished with the money spent on the museum. Bet you will also be asked to leave. Angel
dharbolt Offline
#7 Posted:
Joined: 08-03-2013
Posts: 6,931
Dr. Jaq. Yes

Buckwheat. I was forcibly escorted out. I wish I had thought of that it would have been the feather in that cap.
victor809 Offline
#8 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
Now I've got to add another item to my bucket list....
dharbolt Offline
#9 Posted:
Joined: 08-03-2013
Posts: 6,931
victor809 wrote:
Now I've got to add another item to my bucket list....



Lol it was pretty fun. My wife was horrified. I think that was the best part
erjaq Offline
#10 Posted:
Joined: 11-21-2013
Posts: 1,188
dharbolt wrote:
Lol it was pretty fun. My wife was horrified. I think that was the best part


Horrified at the exhibits, or horrified at you?
jackconrad Offline
#11 Posted:
Joined: 06-09-2003
Posts: 67,461
as the old saying goes
"Creationism is the next thing to Godliness..."
eye2 Offline
#12 Posted:
Joined: 04-30-2014
Posts: 227
Odds are that we're living in a computer simulation. Much easier to create virtually than for real.
wheelrite Offline
#13 Posted:
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
this is a stupid argument,,,

Creationism and evolution work nicely together,,,,


It's called

Intelligent Design,,,,


whee;
jackconrad Offline
#14 Posted:
Joined: 06-09-2003
Posts: 67,461
you mean wee..
dharbolt Offline
#15 Posted:
Joined: 08-03-2013
Posts: 6,931
erjaq wrote:
Horrified at the exhibits, or horrified at you?



Yes.
gryphonms Offline
#16 Posted:
Joined: 04-14-2013
Posts: 1,983
Wheel when arguing a point rational thought is needed.

First off you lack the basic concept that creationionism and evolution are mutually exclusive. Second by arguing that intelligent design proves creationism is valid does not prove that intelligenct design exists. Finally you ignore all of the scientific evidence supporting evolution and debunking creationism.
DrafterX Offline
#17 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,559
I crawled outta a pond... Sad
TMCTLT Offline
#18 Posted:
Joined: 11-22-2007
Posts: 19,733
gryphonms wrote:
Wheel when arguing a point rational thought is needed.

First off you lack the basic concept that creationionism and evolution are mutually exclusive. Second by arguing that intelligent design proves creationism is valid does not prove that intelligenct design exists. Finally you ignore all of the scientific evidence supporting evolution and debunking creationism.



The one thing no one ever seems to remember, scientist are PEOPLE too and some just want their 15 minutes of fame. To have ones work end up in some journal weather it's fact or fiction is a driving force.....let's consider Global Warming shall we.
gryphonms Offline
#19 Posted:
Joined: 04-14-2013
Posts: 1,983
Got it, science is meaningless when it comes to finding the truth. In fact it may very well be fiction. How come all creationists come back with essentially the same answer? Because it allows you to justify your point of view or because you view science as evil, or some other equally incorrect reason.
TMCTLT Offline
#20 Posted:
Joined: 11-22-2007
Posts: 19,733
gryphonms wrote:
Got it, science is meaningless when it comes to finding the truth. In fact it may very well be fiction. How come all creationists come back with essentially the same answer? Because it allows you to justify your point of view or because you view science as evil, or some other equally incorrect reason.



Wow, you have a bit of anger bros. I'm NOT trying to justify my point or anyone else's, simply pointing out the Short Coming and frailties of MAN. So I assume in your world because some scientist says so....it must be the Gospel? Never EVER said science was evil, your letting your emotions cloud your thoughts. Prove I'm incorrect smart guy, show me that no " proven " scientific claim has NEVer been disproven....
tailgater Offline
#21 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
erjaq wrote:
Start with the conclusion, then work your way backward.


Yeah. Treat it like a drunken Vegas weekend.
Drool
gryphonms Offline
#22 Posted:
Joined: 04-14-2013
Posts: 1,983
Wow, are you myopic. I paraphrased what you said. I find your justification is funny. Since all scientific evidence proves creationism invalid there is nothing I need to prove to you. Instead of trying to justify creationism with invalid points, why not just say you believe in creationism? You could even say based on your religious beliefs you believe in creationism. But when wheel says creationism is the same as evolution and intelligent design proves it I have to laugh because that argument cannot be suported. I have tried not to discredit your arguments. I have decided to quit doing that. If you see that as anger that is your problem not mine.
tailgater Offline
#23 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185

The real question is:
Do Creationists believe in the Brontosaurus?

gryphonms Offline
#24 Posted:
Joined: 04-14-2013
Posts: 1,983
TG, well played.
DrafterX Offline
#25 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,559
What about the Flintstones..?? Huh
jackconrad Offline
#26 Posted:
Joined: 06-09-2003
Posts: 67,461
Science still has not answered who put the stuff here to start everything from the Universe to animals...

Science is not always right either , it is a fairly young practice that is in only the infant stages of it's evolution..

Just like young people always think they are right about things
So does young science think that way too.


But as both mature they realize that they were simplistic and immature in their early stages and as result were wrong about many things.

So those who argue for science should think about these things and realize that mankind cannot grasp all concepts yet .
TMCTLT Offline
#27 Posted:
Joined: 11-22-2007
Posts: 19,733
gryphonms wrote:
Wow, are you myopic. I paraphrased what you said. I find your justification is funny. Since all scientific evidence proves creationism invalid there is nothing I need to prove to you. Instead of trying to justify creationism with invalid points, why not just say you believe in creationism? You could even say based on your religious beliefs you believe in creationism. But when wheel says creationism is the same as evolution and intelligent design proves it I have to laugh because that argument cannot be suported. I have tried not to discredit your arguments. I have decided to quit doing that. If you see that as anger that is your problem not mine.




Wow, your another wordsmith who thinks he smarter than everyone else too. Worlds full of them these days!! Not a highly religious person believe it or not, but I'm not so arrogant to believe that a group of scientists hold " The Truth " on how the World began....sorry. Just never have been one to let another piss down my leg and tell me it's raining....
Your just another dude who obviously believes everything he reads. Yay
gryphonms Offline
#28 Posted:
Joined: 04-14-2013
Posts: 1,983
There you go again with fact less statements.

I have never said I am smarter than anyone else. That is an assumption on your part.

I have never said I believe science blindly. Again you are making an assumption. When the amount of empirical data is vast, it is easy to discern what is true and what is not.

You find it arrogant to believe scientists, I find it to be common sense when scientists as a who believe the same thing.
fiddler898 Offline
#29 Posted:
Joined: 06-15-2009
Posts: 3,782
Creationism & "Intelligent Design" (now there's an oxymoron for you) are basically what's called a "God of the Gaps" theology, which is both fallacious and just bad theology. I'm actually mildly surprised whenever people of faith resort to it, as it tends to undermine the foundation of their own positions.
TMCTLT Offline
#30 Posted:
Joined: 11-22-2007
Posts: 19,733
gryphonms wrote:
There you go again with fact less statements.

I have never said I am smarter than anyone else. That is an assumption on your part.

I have never said I believe science blindly. Again you are making an assumption. When the amount of empirical data is vast, it is easy to discern what is true and what is not.

You find it arrogant to believe scientists, I find it to be common sense when scientists as a who believe the same thing.



The adjectives "creation" and "evolution" get added to the term "science" when the matter of presuppositions and conclusions are dealt with. There is no scientist anywhere in the world who does not hold to some kind of presuppositional truth in his own life. That which he considers true will invariably color his understanding of the science he is involved with. Thus, those who believe evolution to be true will see their work in terms of evolution theory. Those who believe creation to be true will see their work in terms of creation theory. Each will form conclusions based on what they consider true in the first place. The data can be exactly the same, but the conclusions can be radically different because of this. Thus, "creation science" is not a separate science itself, but a way of looking at science through the eyes of those who believe, in whatever form, that the universe and all life was the result of creation by some kind of deity.


Pretty well covers it in my mind...thank you.
victor809 Offline
#31 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
jackconrad wrote:
Science still has not answered who put the stuff here to start everything from the Universe to animals...

Jack... this is the fundamental problem with creationists or IDers... The instances where science has not yet found an answer are NOT proof of a god. The bible still hasn't answered who put the god in the sky... does that prove all evolution is correct suddenly? Stop thinking so binary.

Quote:

Science is not always right either , it is a fairly young practice that is in only the infant stages of it's evolution..

Just like young people always think they are right about things
So does young science think that way too.

I agree. Many times science comes up with the incorrect answer. But do you know how we determine that? Through continued use of the scientific method to then disprove it. Religion has never proven science to be incorrect. To abandon the scientific methodology in favor for religious quackery simply because a scientist is incorrect is just plain stupid.
Quote:

But as both mature they realise that they were simplistic and immature in their early stages and as resuly were wrong about many things.

So those who argue for science should think about these things and realise that mankind cannot grasp all concepts yet .

.... so because we "cannot grasp all concepts yet" we're supposed to abandon scientific thought and start believing in things which have not proof? That's not good decision making. Smart decision making would be to try to improve our ability to understand things by gathering more and more information about the universe we live in.
DrafterX Offline
#32 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,559
like.. Where did BigFoots come from..?? Think Think
gryphonms Offline
#33 Posted:
Joined: 04-14-2013
Posts: 1,983
No Drafter, more like gathering data about your lunch habits to make logical decisions about the next restaurant to build near your workplace.
DrafterX Offline
#34 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,559
using my past data prolly wouldn't be very logical... they should ask if I'd like something new.... Mellow
gryphonms Offline
#35 Posted:
Joined: 04-14-2013
Posts: 1,983
True, I was giving a very straight forward example of statistical analysis being used to determine a potential outcome. This is very simplistic in form, but does support the basic concept that science can answer questions. Though in truth the stretch is that this is math and not science. But I think it illustrates the concept for you, enough empirical data will often lead to an accurate conclusion. Though the point that must always be considered is how much data is enough to be conclusive. If anyone wants to expound on this or show it's flaws please do as it is a quickly thought out example.
ZRX1200 Offline
#36 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,627
Al Gore invented the universe.

Evolution made it more universey.




I love how everything just appeared without saying something at some point WAS created.
eye2 Offline
#37 Posted:
Joined: 04-30-2014
Posts: 227
It's more probable (not more truthful) that we are a computer simulation running on some kid's computer.

Look at the game called The Sims. It's not very sophisticated of course. But it only took a decade to make and millions of copies are there running the simulation. The Earth, by contrast, took 4,500,000,000 years to make and there is only one. What would a Sims-like game say 1 billion years in the future look like (considering that the Universe is 13.8 billion years old and some civilization may have a billion year leg up on us)? It would be a lot better than it is today. Maybe even good enough to have the simulation models have a "conscience". And there might be billions of copies running by kids on some planet in some universe. That is, it's a lot easier to create a simulation than it is a world/Universe with life in it.
jetblasted Offline
#38 Posted:
Joined: 08-30-2004
Posts: 42,595
DrafterX wrote:
like.. Where did BigFoots come from..?? Think Think

They caught a big foot in the North Georgia Mountains a few years ago Mellow
gryphonms Offline
#39 Posted:
Joined: 04-14-2013
Posts: 1,983
Science and God are not mutually exclusive unless you are an atheist. Science does support evolution. Is it to much of a stretch to think God created the universe though evolution? There are times when science is used to attempt to prove God's existence, hence the God particle.
victor809 Offline
#40 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
gryphonms wrote:
Science and God are not mutually exclusive unless you are an atheist. Science does support evolution. Is it to much of a stretch to think God created the universe though evolution? There are times when science is used to attempt to prove God's existence, hence the God particle.


.... the god particle is in no way a reference to any biblical god nor is it an attempt to prove the existence of any sort of sentient creator. It was a fun name.
MACS Offline
#41 Posted:
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,817
I don’t believe that creationism and evolution are mutually exclusive. I believe the truth lies somewhere in between. Dinosaurs were real; we have solid, tangible evidence of that. Evolution is real; we have solid, tangible evidence of that.

How did it all get here? Was it a spontaneous combustion type big bang? Personally, I find that hard to believe. The way the Earth works in concert with its inhabitants is nothing short of miraculous. The hydrologic cycle that provides water to the plants, the sun that facilitates photosynthesis, the fact that plants use the carbon dioxide that we expel to create the oxygen that we need. How the whole system of plants and animals work together to create this world we live in.

Science today, in my opinion, does not allow for a literal translation of what the bible tells us. That being said, it is not prudent to dismiss it completely. I, personally, have a hard time believing that something as intricate as what I described above just ‘happened ‘. I believe it had to have been created by an intelligent being. This is why they call belief in God ‘faith’.

My two cents.
victor809 Offline
#42 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
ZRX1200 wrote:

I love how everything just appeared without saying something at some point WAS created.


What you fail to acknowledge is that this is an entire focus of physics research.

No scientist just says "everything just appeared"... they are specifically trying to determine how something can come of nothing.

Saying "everything just appeared" without doing the necessary math behind it is the realm of religion (has christianity ever tried to explain how god was created?).
MACS Offline
#43 Posted:
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,817
TMCTLT wrote:
The adjectives "creation" and "evolution" get added to the term "science" when the matter of presuppositions and conclusions are dealt with. There is no scientist anywhere in the world who does not hold to some kind of presuppositional truth in his own life. That which he considers true will invariably color his understanding of the science he is involved with. Thus, those who believe evolution to be true will see their work in terms of evolution theory. Those who believe creation to be true will see their work in terms of creation theory. Each will form conclusions based on what they consider true in the first place. The data can be exactly the same, but the conclusions can be radically different because of this. Thus, "creation science" is not a separate science itself, but a way of looking at science through the eyes of those who believe, in whatever form, that the universe and all life was the result of creation by some kind of deity.


Pretty well covers it in my mind...thank you.


If you're going to just copy something off the internet, at least cite it and give credit to the person who actually wrote it.
ZRX1200 Offline
#44 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,627
Victor send me $325.87 and I will explain it and lead you to salvation ....
victor809 Offline
#45 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
ZRX1200 wrote:
Victor send me $325.87 and I will explain it and lead you to salvation ....


Damn... I thought they only charged TW $3.75... :(
MACS Offline
#46 Posted:
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,817
victor809 wrote:
Damn... I thought they only charged TW $3.75... :(


Maybe the hillbilly snake charmers... not the mega-churches!
jackconrad Offline
#47 Posted:
Joined: 06-09-2003
Posts: 67,461
Am i really Me ? Here? Archie n Jughead were created by an Artist and a writer are they Gods to them ??
jetblasted Offline
#48 Posted:
Joined: 08-30-2004
Posts: 42,595
And God said, “Let the earth bring forth living creatures of every kind: cattle and creeping things and wild animals of the earth of every kind.” And it was so. God made the wild animals of the earth of every kind, and the cattle of every kind, and everything that creeps upon the ground of every kind. And God saw that it was good.

Then God said, “Let us make humankind in our image, according to our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the wild animals of the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.” So God created humankind in his image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them. God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth.” God said, “See, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit; you shall have them for food. And to every beast of the earth, and to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food.” And it was so. God saw everything that he had made, and indeed, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

fog
tailgater Offline
#49 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
MACS wrote:
I don’t believe that creationism and evolution are mutually exclusive. I believe the truth lies somewhere in between. Dinosaurs were real; we have solid, tangible evidence of that. Evolution is real; we have solid, tangible evidence of that.

How did it all get here? Was it a spontaneous combustion type big bang? Personally, I find that hard to believe. The way the Earth works in concert with its inhabitants is nothing short of miraculous. The hydrologic cycle that provides water to the plants, the sun that facilitates photosynthesis, the fact that plants use the carbon dioxide that we expel to create the oxygen that we need. How the whole system of plants and animals work together to create this world we live in.

Science today, in my opinion, does not allow for a literal translation of what the bible tells us. That being said, it is not prudent to dismiss it completely. I, personally, have a hard time believing that something as intricate as what I described above just ‘happened ‘. I believe it had to have been created by an intelligent being. This is why they call belief in God ‘faith’.

My two cents.


I typed out a response to this thread twice yesterday. I sent neither, for it either rambled on or it didn't convey my point sufficiently.
Now MACS has summed up my thoughts with such specificity that we need to question if it is not....
an Independence Day Miracle!!


Great minds think alike.

And apparently, so do ours.


victor809 Offline
#50 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
You guys are looking at the "miraculous" from the inside. It gives you a warped perspective and makes you think of it as the only possible way it could occur.

If you step back and realize that the thing out consider the "miracle" really is the end point, and it all the other factors supporting it had been different, you would still have an end point. A different end point, but likely an end point which is sitting around pondering how miraculous it was that everything lined up to create them... You start to realize you're looking at the problem backwards.
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