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Is it time to repeal the McCain Amendment???
Abrignac Offline
#1 Posted:
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,327
Another journalist has been beheaded by ISIS. They have vowed more will follow.

In 2005 a rag tag group of incompetents decided to have some fun at a place called Abu Ghraib. On the heels of that scandal a Top Secret black ops program run by the CIA to gain information, at times using enhanced interrogation techniques, about terrorist attacks came to light.

After the smoke had cleared, a bill was passed into law called the Detainee Treatment Act of 2005. An amendment to the bill offered by John McCain which makes the U.S. Army Field Manuel the authority for interrogating prisoners.

On the surface, the jihadists don't fit into any known pigeon hole regarding prisoners. Unlike your average POW, the jihadist are not your average volunteer soldier, but a willing participant in a brutal movement of opposition attrition and genocide. Certainly not a group of people willing to adhere to the Geneva Conventions. Why then should those conventions apply to them?

Is it really wrong for these guys, if captured, to endure some level of discomfort so intelligence can be gathered from them which could lead to the death of the leaders of the movement and perhaps the movement itself?
victor809 Offline
#2 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
Abrignac wrote:

Is it really wrong for these guys, if captured, to endure some level of discomfort so intelligence can be gathered from them which could lead to the death of the leaders of the movement and perhaps the movement itself?


It depends. If you want to live in a country that can still take the moral high ground on this (and future) conflict... then we simply cannot.

If you don't particularly care about being able to say that we as a country afford specific rights to everyone, including people who are clearly against us, then we can go ahead and start torturing.

These days it probably doesn't matter much... what with our drone strikes and spying and general regime building/toppling in the 3rd world countries we've lost most of our moral cache anyway. I suppose one could say we're holding on to this last little thing the same way a virgin holds on to her hymen, despite having been plowed in the backdoor and mouth by the past 10 boyfriends.... but I digress...
TMCTLT Offline
#3 Posted:
Joined: 11-22-2007
Posts: 19,733
victor809 wrote:
It depends. If you want to live in a country that can still take the moral high ground on this (and future) conflict... then we simply cannot.

If you don't particularly care about being able to say that we as a country afford specific rights to everyone, including people who are clearly against us, then we can go ahead and start torturing.

These days it probably doesn't matter much... what with our drone strikes and spying and general regime building/toppling in the 3rd world countries we've lost most of our moral cache anyway. I suppose one could say we're holding on to this last little thing the same way a virgin holds on to her hymen, despite having been plowed in the backdoor and mouth by the past 10 boyfriends.... but I digress...



Leave it to your generation and you won't recognize one thread of what this Great Country once was......we treated these F*cks the way we did BECAUSE of the way they CHOSE to wage War....and we should resume as quickly as possible.
victor809 Offline
#4 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
TMCTLT wrote:
Leave it to your generation and you won't recognize one thread of what this Great Country once was......we treated these F*cks the way we did BECAUSE of the way they CHOSE to wage War....and we should resume as quickly as possible.


Yes. The whole "I WILL stoop to their level!" stance. Always great when declaring the moral high ground.

It's like you don't even understand basic logic....
Abrignac Offline
#5 Posted:
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,327
victor809 wrote:
Yes. The whole "I WILL stoop to their level!" stance. Always great when declaring the moral high ground.

It's like you don't even understand basic logic....



F the moral high ground. Pull their fingernails out instead....



Shhh
victor809 Offline
#6 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
Abrignac wrote:
F the moral high ground. Pull their fingernails out instead....



Shhh


Hehehe....
I used to really care. Because I was pretty sure the US had a good moral stance still. We've done enough over the past 2 decades (hell, lets stretch it out to 3) that there isn't that much left to preserve.

It's one of those things that if we are going to say "hey, we're torturing people now" then our country is no longer any better than Russia.. and we have one less thing to differentiate ourselves from North Korea.

If rational people are willing to make that trade off, then who am I to argue. My problem is with the people who think they can keep the image of America as a morally good country WHILE torturing people. Can't have it both ways, but some aren't smart enough to get that.
TMCTLT Offline
#7 Posted:
Joined: 11-22-2007
Posts: 19,733
victor809 wrote:
Yes. The whole "I WILL stoop to their level!" stance. Always great when declaring the moral high ground.

It's like you don't even understand basic logic....



I WISH dip****s like yourself were actually Over There trying to " Play Nice " with these F'n Animals.....Brick wall
TMCTLT Offline
#8 Posted:
Joined: 11-22-2007
Posts: 19,733
victor809 wrote:
Hehehe....
I used to really care. Because I was pretty sure the US had a good moral stance still. We've done enough over the past 2 decades (hell, lets stretch it out to 3) that there isn't that much left to preserve.

It's one of those things that if we are going to say "hey, we're torturing people now" then our country is no longer any better than Russia.. and we have one less thing to differentiate ourselves from North Korea.

If rational people are willing to make that trade off, then who am I to argue. My problem is with the people who think they can keep the image of America as a morally good country WHILE torturing people. Can't have it both ways, but some aren't smart enough to get that.




We ARE STILL of higher moral caliber Because we start off BETTER.....show me their generosity toward the rest of the world ( like the US ) and acceptance of others Religions and general beliefs and THEN get back to me.
CruzJ Offline
#9 Posted:
Joined: 04-17-2014
Posts: 222
I'm not sure how old this Victor fella is, but I'm willing to bet him and I are in the same generation. Be advised I do not share his pansy ass beliefs. I'd go back to Iraq in a heartbeat to deal with those a$$ holes like we did during the Surge.
victor809 Offline
#10 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
CruzJ wrote:
I'm not sure how old this Victor fella is, but I'm willing to bet him and I are in the same generation. Be advised I do not share his pansy ass beliefs. I'd go back to Iraq in a heartbeat to deal with those a$$ holes like we did during the Surge.


Um. Where did I state any "pansy ass" beliefs?
victor809 Offline
#11 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
TMCTLT wrote:
We ARE STILL of higher moral caliber Because we start off BETTER.....show me their generosity toward the rest of the world ( like the US ) and acceptance of others Religions and general beliefs and THEN get back to me.



Once you've sunk to your enemy's level nobody cares where you started.

.... and this forum is a wealth of "acceptance of others Religions and general beliefs"... RollEyes
wheelrite Offline
#12 Posted:
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
I say we drop a giant steel gate on them..


wheel,
DrafterX Offline
#13 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,560
wheelrite wrote:
I say we drop a giant steel gate on them..


wheel,



that would be gay.... Mellow
wheelrite Offline
#14 Posted:
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
DrafterX wrote:
that would be gay.... Mellow


It would hurt them

wheel,
fiddler898 Offline
#15 Posted:
Joined: 06-15-2009
Posts: 3,782
Anyone who believes the US is not using "enhanced interrogation" techniques is naive. And I say this as one who does not believe the ends justify the means.
Burner02 Offline
#16 Posted:
Joined: 12-21-2010
Posts: 12,884
CruzJ wrote:
I'm not sure how old this Victor fella is, but I'm willing to bet him and I are in the same generation. Be advised I do not share his pansy ass beliefs. I'd go back to Iraq in a heartbeat to deal with those a$$ holes like we did during the Surge.



Much thanks for your service!
victor809 Offline
#17 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
fiddler898 wrote:
Anyone who believes the US is not using "enhanced interrogation" techniques is naive. And I say this as one who does not believe the ends justify the means.


Plausible deniability is also a plausible moral high ground.

In an ideal world, we will have a government which is morally "good" and which stands as an example to the rest of the world as well as give us a sense of national pride when we interact with other countries. We all know that's not going to happen, as a government is a collection of politicians, all of whom are morally corrupt.

Which gives us option two... The image of a morally "good" gov't. In which the world still has a belief in an America which, while not the accurate representation of our country in reality, is an image which inspires others to do better, and which allows us to hold our heads high when interacting with other countries. Plausible deniability of torture would theoretically give us this... if we hadn't done so much to destroy it anyway. Like I said... at this point we're the virginal bride who is "saving herself for marriage" but still got screwed in the butt by the best man.

Option 3.... acknowledge that we as a country are not the shining beacon of freedom and human rights for all that we tried to become... Just say, "hell with it... we aren't going to try to be better than everyone else any longer... we're not even going to pretend to treat our evil enemies any better than they would treat us... torture, maim, eat babies, have sex with donkeys, rape women, rape babies, eat dead post-raped babies... whatever it takes to make sure no one manages to set off a shoe bomb on a waterslide."

I'm fine with any of them. But you can't claim to be from an "option 1" country and advocate "option 3".
DrMaddVibe Offline
#18 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,507
victor809 wrote:
Plausible deniability is also a plausible moral high ground.

In an ideal world, we will have a government which is morally "good" and which stands as an example to the rest of the world as well as give us a sense of national pride when we interact with other countries. We all know that's not going to happen, as a government is a collection of politicians, all of whom are morally corrupt.

Which gives us option two... The image of a morally "good" gov't. In which the world still has a belief in an America which, while not the accurate representation of our country in reality, is an image which inspires others to do better, and which allows us to hold our heads high when interacting with other countries. Plausible deniability of torture would theoretically give us this... if we hadn't done so much to destroy it anyway. Like I said... at this point we're the virginal bride who is "saving herself for marriage" but still got screwed in the butt by the best man.

Option 3.... acknowledge that we as a country are not the shining beacon of freedom and human rights for all that we tried to become... Just say, "hell with it... we aren't going to try to be better than everyone else any longer... we're not even going to pretend to treat our evil enemies any better than they would treat us... torture, maim, eat babies, have sex with donkeys, rape women, rape babies, eat dead post-raped babies... whatever it takes to make sure no one manages to set off a shoe bomb on a waterslide."

I'm fine with any of them. But you can't claim to be from an "option 1" country and advocate "option 3".



And then the UCMJ swoopes in and removes all doubt!


LOLZ!!!
MACS Offline
#19 Posted:
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,824
Who cares about moral high ground? We need to stop being the world police and let these people live their own way. If there are enough of them pissed about it, let them change their own damn country.

I say the same thing to people who tell me Mexicans come here for a "better way of life". If they don't like their way of life in Mexico, revolution and CHANGE it, instead of coming here and trying to change our country to suit you because it's easier.

And we need to wake the hell up... immigrants no longer want to be Americans. They want to make America like their home country. We need to send 'em back to it.
tailgater Offline
#20 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
victor809 wrote:
Hehehe....
I used to really care. Because I was pretty sure the US had a good moral stance still. We've done enough over the past 2 decades (hell, lets stretch it out to 3) that there isn't that much left to preserve.

It's one of those things that if we are going to say "hey, we're torturing people now" then our country is no longer any better than Russia.. and we have one less thing to differentiate ourselves from North Korea.

If rational people are willing to make that trade off, then who am I to argue. My problem is with the people who think they can keep the image of America as a morally good country WHILE torturing people. Can't have it both ways, but some aren't smart enough to get that.



You're letting perception cloud the reality.


Personally, I never understood why purposeful torture is considered somehow worse than a large scale military strike.
Waterboarding an individual terrorist to obtain information should be considered more humane than carpet bombing their snake hole neighborhoods.




Abrignac Offline
#21 Posted:
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,327
tailgater wrote:
You're letting perception cloud the reality.


Personally, I never understood why purposeful torture is considered somehow worse than a large scale military strike.
Waterboarding an individual terrorist to obtain information should be considered more humane than carpet bombing their snake hole neighborhoods.







Agreed, and to take it one step farther: Who really gives a chit how uncomfortable someone is who has pretty much agreed to kill as many people as he can through collateral damage?
TMCTLT Offline
#22 Posted:
Joined: 11-22-2007
Posts: 19,733
[quote=victor809]Once you've sunk to your enemy's level nobody cares where you started.
... and this forum is a wealth of "acceptance of others Religions and general beliefs"... RollEyes[/quote]


Sure they do.....it's no different if in a courtroom, say a prosecutor has someone called up as a witness and they're being evasive or just not forthcoming......the law allows for the prosecutor to treat them as Hostile and the questioning gets much more aggressive. Same holds true in this baby, you start off with niceties....but when they play games.....the Rules change!!! And That's how it should be...period. Oh and I noticed you chose Not to comment on your ass going over there to play nice with those Animals

To my knowledge no one is being harmed by those of us who DO NOT agree with homosexuality Victoria.....so yeah there IS tolerance if nothing else.
TMCTLT Offline
#23 Posted:
Joined: 11-22-2007
Posts: 19,733
fiddler898 wrote:
Anyone who believes the US is not using "enhanced interrogation" techniques is naive. And I say this as one who does not believe the ends justify the means.



You tell that nonsense to anyone who've lost a family member to Terrorism Alan and get back with me. Look Rules of Engagement only work when BOTH SIDES abide by them.....after that fails.....you play by THEIR Rules!!!
gryphonms Offline
#24 Posted:
Joined: 04-14-2013
Posts: 1,983
There is no moral high ground in war. There are only winners and losers. The winners write the history they want. The losers are charged with war crimes.
DrafterX Offline
#25 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,560
Hitler had a lotta balls.... Mellow
victor809 Offline
#26 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
TMCTLT wrote:

Sure they do.....it's no different if in a courtroom, say a prosecutor has someone called up as a witness and they're being evasive or just not forthcoming......the law allows for the prosecutor to treat them as Hostile and the questioning gets much more aggressive. Same holds true in this baby, you start off with niceties....but when they play games.....the Rules change!!! And That's how it should be...period. Oh and I noticed you chose Not to comment on your ass going over there to play nice with those Animals

To my knowledge no one is being harmed by those of us who DO NOT agree with homosexuality Victoria.....so yeah there IS tolerance if nothing else.


First off, why would I go over there to "play nice" with the terrorists? We are discussing what we are supposed to do with someone who is in our custody and has become our responsibility. I know you don't understand that concept, but to liken it to "playing nice" with terrorists in the middle east is just plain stupid. I didn't comment on it because your entire idea was... stupid.

Secondly, your analogy to a courtroom is flawed. At the end both parties still end up at the same level. Nobody cares where you started. The whole "he started it first" doesn't even work if you're a 4-year old child caught by your mother.

Thirdly, I didn't say anything about homosexuality. I was referring to this forum's acceptance of other religious beliefs... you know... Islam? Did you completely miss that cue or something? The number of comments in the forum regarding Islam make it pretty clear it isn't "open to religious beliefs"... to claim it's "acceptance of others Religions and general beliefs" is laughable.
HockeyDad Offline
#27 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,163
gryphonms wrote:
There is no moral high ground in war. There are only winners and losers. The winners write the history they want. The losers are charged with war crimes.




War hasn't been nearly as fun ever since they took out the raping, pillaging, killing their first born, and enslaving.
victor809 Offline
#28 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
But it's become way more profitable... You can just buy the raping/pillaging/firstborn killing now with your profits.
DrafterX Offline
#29 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,560
If we go to war does Obama have to give back his peace prize..?? Huh
TMCTLT Offline
#30 Posted:
Joined: 11-22-2007
Posts: 19,733
victor809 wrote:
First off, why would I go over there to "play nice" with the terrorists? We are discussing what we are supposed to do with someone who is in our custody and has become our responsibility. I know you don't understand that concept, but to liken it to "playing nice" with terrorists in the middle east is just plain stupid. I didn't comment on it because your entire idea was... stupid.

Secondly, your analogy to a courtroom is flawed. At the end both parties still end up at the same level. Nobody cares where you started. The whole "he started it first" doesn't even work if you're a 4-year old child caught by your mother.

Thirdly, I didn't say anything about homosexuality. I was referring to this forum's acceptance of other religious beliefs... you know... Islam? Did you completely miss that cue or something? The number of comments in the forum regarding Islam make it pretty clear it isn't "open to religious beliefs"... to claim it's "acceptance of others Religions and general beliefs" is laughable.



Because you seem to think we should take a " higher moral ground " F..THAT....you fight fire with fire. Just a **** soon as you capture some of theirs you start lopping off body parts and sending them to their camps...let them **** figure out what belongs to who. You don't have a clue on how these people think and to believe that they'll understand ANYTHING short of the game being played by THEIR RULES in just ignorant. They Love how were stupid enough to adhere to Geneva conv. Rules n such while they horrify families here and abroad with beheading videos and funerals to attend. And little bitches like you have a problem with a touch of torture when these Animals are not forthcoming with info.....I don't give two ****....water board em do whatever it takes to save American lives. You didn't have to say anything about homosexuality, you seem to know a scary amount already, not that there's anything wrong with that Whistle
HockeyDad Offline
#31 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,163
The Doomsday Clock currently is 5 minutes to midnight. I wonder if we should bump that up a bit.
DrafterX Offline
#32 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,560
Is it this weekend..?? Do we set it back or forward..?? Think
gryphonms Offline
#33 Posted:
Joined: 04-14-2013
Posts: 1,983
So ISIS has WMD'S?
DrafterX Offline
#34 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,560
That's what I heard.... Mellow
propeller Offline
#35 Posted:
Joined: 07-20-2014
Posts: 173
victor809 wrote:
Once you've sunk to your enemy's level nobody cares where you started.

.... and this forum is a wealth of "acceptance of others Religions and general beliefs"... RollEyes



Am I missing something? When did we (the USA) start cutting heads off and burying people alive and stuff?

Just wondering........
DrafterX Offline
#36 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,560
Biden on Wednesday delivered what was probably the toughest statement to date from the administration, declaring, after another U.S. journalist was beheaded by the Islamic State, "we will follow them to the gates of Hell until they are brought to justice."


Think Think
HockeyDad Offline
#37 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,163
Most figure Biden is going to hell so this might not be that dramatic a statement.
DrafterX Offline
#38 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,560
ya... I figured he was just kiddin.... Mellow
TMCTLT Offline
#39 Posted:
Joined: 11-22-2007
Posts: 19,733
propeller wrote:
Am I missing something? When did we (the USA) start cutting heads off and burring people alive and stuff?

Just wondering........



Because he and others Think we overstepped our boundaries when we water boarded etc. some terrorists being held in Guantanamo to get answers they would NOT otherwise be forthcoming with. Vicki and OBama supporters alike are all in when it comes to " playing Nice and Fair " with Terrorists!!!
Abrignac Offline
#40 Posted:
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,327
DrafterX wrote:
Biden on Wednesday delivered what was probably the toughest statement to date from the administration, declaring, after another U.S. journalist was beheaded by the Islamic State, "we will follow them to the gates of Hell until they are brought to justice."


Think Think


Justice? WGAF about justice. This would connote capturing said participants and bringing the here for trial. Water board or do what ever is needed to get as much info as is possible. Then cut them loose in the dessert and send in a drone. Hell for that matter just put a bullet in their head once their usefulness plays out. What's difference between that and bombing a building? Dead is dead, so why does it matter?
DrafterX Offline
#41 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,560
ask Hillary... Mellow
teedubbya Offline
#42 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
So selective torture is what we are voting on? IE torture those belonging to groups that act like barbarians but don't torture the more civilized groups? That way our enemys will decide how to treat us based on how we treat them (and vice versa). It's not a torture or not policy (either or).

I'm thinking that sounds like a torture policy and any group with a beef with the US would be inclined to follow suit. I also don't think torturing and mutilating them is going to change thier behavior. i don't think anything will short of extermination. It may satisfy some folks blood lust and desire for revenge however.
teedubbya Offline
#43 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
Abrignac wrote:
Justice? WGAF about justice. This would connote capturing said participants and bringing the here for trial. Water board or do what ever is needed to get as much info as is possible. Then cut them loose in the dessert and send in a drone. Hell for that matter just put a bullet in their head once their usefulness plays out. What's difference between that and bombing a building? Dead is dead, so why does it matter?



It's a matter of in custody and under control or not. Once in custody they are no longer a threat. I'm all for killing them in the field.

If we decide to not be better than them based on what they are doing they have won.
TMCTLT Offline
#44 Posted:
Joined: 11-22-2007
Posts: 19,733
teedubbya wrote:
It's a matter of in custody and under control or not. Once in custody they are no longer a threat. I'm all for killing them in the field.

If we decide to not be better than them based on what they are doing they have won.



No sir, they ARE winning every time an American life is on display right before being snuffed out. And I say BS once in custody they are no longer a threat....and even IF that were true, why release them to do More harm? I hope we were smart enough to " chip " those MF's before we cut them loose, as I hope we were smart enough to chip and watch closely the Amer. Soldier who willingly walked off his post cuz he didn't want to be there anymore and got traded for 5 high profile terrorists.
DrafterX Offline
#45 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,560
I heard they cut his balls off.... it's suppose to keep him from wandering too far.... Mellow
gryphonms Offline
#46 Posted:
Joined: 04-14-2013
Posts: 1,983
To think that we do not use every means possible to gather Intel would be naive. Certain actions which are distasteful are necessary. All the McCain amendment did was to move torture from public view.
HockeyDad Offline
#47 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,163
Going after ISIS supports Iran, Assad's Syrian government, and Iraq's Shiite dominated government.

Neither side of the religious/ethnic/sectarian civil wars going on in the Middle East like the USA.

Unless we want to send a massive army made up of our children to occupy the entire region, the USA should just sit this one out. American civilians (reporters or otherwise) have no reason to be in the region.
teedubbya Offline
#48 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
HockeyDad wrote:
Going after ISIS supports Iran, Assad's Syrian government, and Iraq's Shiite dominated government.

Neither side of the religious/ethnic/sectarian civil wars going on in the Middle East like the USA.

Unless we want to send a massive army made up of our children to occupy the entire region, the USA should just sit this one out. American civilians (reporters or otherwise) have no reason to be in the region.



The funny part to me is the action/reaction peice. They butcher someone to get a reaction out of us and we give it. We over reacted after 911 and we are going to over react now. Scoreboard for them. Our angst legitimizes them and is exactly what they want/need.

By spasing out and wanting to torture/murder/dismember back at them we actualy give them something they otherwise don't have. We have given them a way to get at us, make us act. Right now we are beyond their reach which is why they do things like this. To give them more reach. And our lips quiver, we over react and they win. They are not worthy.





George Wills colum the other day was spot on comparing this to the Ukraine. (not about torture etc. but about the scope of the issue and approach)
teedubbya Offline
#49 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
Here is the Will article.


The Islamic State is a nasty problem that can be remedied if its neighbors, assisted by the United States, decide to do so. Vladimir Putin’s fascist revival is a crisis that tests the West’s capacity to decide.

Putin’s serial amputations of portions of Ukraine, which began with his fait accompli in Crimea, will proceed, and succeed, until his appetite is satiated. Then the real danger will begin.

Suppose Ukraine is merely his overture for the destruction of NATO, the nemesis of his Soviet memory. Then what might be his version of the Gleiwitz radio-station episode 75 years ago?

On the evening of August 31, 1939, Nazi SS personnel pretending to be Polish partisans seized the station, which was about four miles inside Germany (Gliwice is now in Poland), proclaiming that Poland was invading Germany to achieve “our just [territorial] claims,” and shot a German prisoner dressed in a stolen Polish uniform, giving Hitler his pretext for declaring war the next day.

Putin has discarded the minor inhibitions of what NATO calls his “hybrid war” — giving slightly surreptitious aid to Russian separatists; brazenly infiltrating Russian soldiers in unmarked uniforms. Russia has invaded Ukraine, although the Obama administration likes the semantic anesthesia of calling it an “incursion.” Putin does not pretend that it will be, like President Nixon’s 1970 “incursion” into Cambodia, temporary.

So, suppose Putin, reprising his Ukrainian success, orchestrates unrest among the Russian-speaking minorities in Latvia, Lithuania, or Estonia. Then, recycling Hitler’s words that his country “could not remain inactive,” Putin invades one of these NATO members. Either NATO invokes Article 5 — an attack on any member is an attack on all — or NATO disappears and the Soviet Union, NATO’s original raison d’être, is avenged.

Although no one more thoroughly detested Hitler’s regime that General Erwin Rommel served, Winston Churchill acknowledged in January 1942 in the House of Commons the talent of Britain’s enemy: “We have a very daring and skillful opponent against us, and, may I say across the havoc of war, a great general.” Putin is, the West should similarly acknowledge, more talented and dangerous than either Nikita Khrushchev or Leonid Brezhnev. Their truculence was not fueled by fury. Putin’s essence is anger. It is a smoldering amalgam of resentment (of Russia’s diminishment because of the Soviet Union’s collapse), revanchist ambitions (regarding formerly Soviet territories and spheres of influence), cultural loathing (for the pluralism of open societies), and ethnic chauvinism that presages “ethnic cleansing” of non-Russians from portions of Putin’s expanding Russia.

This is more than merely the fascist mind; its ethnic-c u m-racial component makes it Hitlerian. Hence Putin is “unpredictable” only to those unfamiliar with the 1930s. Regarding the roles of resentment and vengeance, remember where Hitler insisted that France formally capitulate in 1940 — in the railroad carriage near the town of Compiègne, where Germany signed the 1918 armistice.

Since its emancipation by the Soviet Union’s demise, Ukraine has been ravaged by corruption that frays national sentiment, which even before this was a tenuous phenomenon. In The Long Shadow: The Legacies of the Great War in the Twentieth Century, David Reynolds of Cambridge University cites a British diplomat’s 1918 analysis:


Quote:
Were one to ask the average peasant in the Ukraine his nationality, he would answer that he is Greek Orthodox; if pressed to say whether he is a Great Russian, a Pole, or an Ukrainian he would probably reply that he is a peasant; and if one insisted on knowing what language he spoke, he would say that he talked “the local tongue.”


Ukraine may be an ethnic casserole susceptible to diminishment by Putin’s ladle. But the Baltic States, by virtue of their NATO membership, are, regardless of their histories or sociologies, decisively different. And given Putin’s animus, nourished by his negligibly resisted success in Ukraine, he is more dangerous than the Islamic State.

This group is perhaps 20,000 fighters possessing some artillery and armor but no air force. It is an island of tenuously occupied territory in a sea of hostile regimes — those of Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria, Iran, Iraq, and Iraq’s Kurdish region, which has its own regime. These command approximately 2 million troops who, with ample air power, can pulverize the Islamic State whenever the regimes summon the will to do so.

U.S. participation in this should be conditional on the regional powers’ putting their militaries where their mouths (sometimes) are in the fight against radical Islamists. U.S. participation in defense of the Baltic States is unconditional.
teedubbya Offline
#50 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
Le HD we can not sit this one out now since they asked us to and started beheading folks because then it would look like we did what they wanted. See what they did? It seems almost intentional.
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